I bet the female fighters in the legion could kick ass if put in a modern army.

My oldest son is a Marine. Infantry mortar man. He told me the weight of the stuff they carried and the distances they carried it when they went on a camping trip. Amazing. I told him he got paid to go camping? He was

Yes, the high PT score in my BCT company was not just female, but short and wide (not fat, she had Incan ancestry and had wide shoulders).  299 on the APFT with 99 pushups.  Helped that she could only go down about halfway and then bounced.  

From Wikipedia-

Every legion had a large baggage train, which included 640 mules (1 mule for every 8 legionaries) just for the soldiers' equipment. To keep these baggage trains from becoming too large and slow, Marius had each infantryman carry as much of his own equipment as he could, including his own armour, weapons and 15 days' rations, for about 25–30 kg (50–60 pounds) of load total. To make this easier, he issued each legionary a cross stick to carry their loads on their shoulders. The soldiers were nicknamed Marius' Mules because of the amount of gear they had to carry themselves. This arrangement allowed for the possibility for the supply train to become temporarily detached from the main body of the legion, thus greatly increasing the army's speed when needed.

Marius was such a badass.

This is what Steinhab sent me....

First off, Vegetius was often full of shit. He wasn't a military man, he was an equivalent to a pogue, or worse, a dirty civilian, as he never served a single day in the Legions. But he was trying to write a primer on warfare and included every bad ass story he could find in his library, likely making some shit up too, in order to try to convince the military elite and Emperor of his day (Late Roman Empire) that their army was shitty and they should fight as he thought the ancients Romans fought (they weren't just ancient to us).

But let's let's talk numbers. Vegetius' De Re Militari describes two paces, slow, at 20 miles in 5 hours, fast at 24 miles in 5 hours. Lots of uninformed motherfuckers over the years have been duped into believing this was some bad ass feet of endurance and strength, but I'm going to school you bastards up. To understand this shit you have to know that the translations you're reading are only translating Latin to English, I can't think of one that is converting ancient units of measure to modern. Ie., for the dumb fucks who aren't following this, the Roman miles weren't modern statute miles, and Roman hours weren't modern hours.

Let's go with daylight. Roman days were divided into day of 12 equal hours worth of sunlight, and nighttime of 4 equal watches of darkness. Tracking? Hope so. Daylight isn't constant though, summer days are longer than winter, so that summer hours for Romans were longer too. I did the calculation, around the Latitude of the upper half of the Mediterranean at the Summer Solstice, days last for ~16 modern hours of sunlight.

Math: 16 hours multiplied by 60 = 960 minutes, divided by 12 gets 80 minutes per Roman hour on the Summer Solstice. 80 minutes times x 5= 400 minutes. 400 minutes divided by 60 = 6.6 modern hours. So its a bit longer, 1 hr, 40 minutes longer.  

Vegetius says the Legions marched for 6.6 hours (5 Roman hours during summer), he says they traveled 20-24 Roman miles during that time, depending on their pace. But that doesn't mean statute miles. A Roman mile was equivalent to 4,854 Imperial/US Feet, while a modern Statute mile is equal to 5,280 Imperial/US feet (as opposed to a Roman foot, which is actually 11 inches, not 12).

Math:
{[(5280-4854) x 20] / 5280} - 20
{[(5280-4854) x 24] / 5280} - 24


TLDR:
What this means for you impatient fucks that don't want to learn is that, according to Vegetius' likely bullshit claim, Romans marched 18.5 statute miles in 6.6 modern hours (2.8 mph pace), or they marched 22.1 statute miles in 6.6 modern hours (3.3 mph), neither of which is especially impressive for a fat 40 year old soccer mom, let alone a modern infantryman, even one carrying heavy loads. Romans were non rucking bitches apparently.

"If you can't truck it; fuck it"

Don't forget they walked everywhere their entire lives. So to them it was just how they traveled

This. Caesar's legions humped it, and was known to be the quickest in mobilization out of all the legions.

Steinhab is correct in his assessment of Vegetius.

I compare my idea of ruck marching with Caesar's legions though during his time in Gaul.

Bring back steinhab...

The article said up to 100lbs..i can't imagine using a stick and bag with that weight in it.

+1

where were you reading this?

The standard movement was 12 miles with 70 pounds according to vegetius and many think he exaggerated that.

I have never seen the 100 pounds of kit.

100 Roman libra is equal to 72.5 Imperial pounds. A lot of people don't do the conversion from Roman to Standard/Imperial.

I don't know how comfortable metal armor and heavy swords would be to wear and carry either.

Not sure about the armor but the gladius weighed around a pound and a half. The spear they used, the pilum, weighed between about 4.5-11lbs depending on the era. Not exactly ball busting and much less than an empty M249 SAW of today.

19 miles/5 hours/100 lbs. sounds like child's play for those Norwegian girl soldiers.

Pilum also doubles as a walking stick. 

From Steinhab:



This is for Roman history buffs, so if you don't like history, skip this:

Romans by and large were never that mobile of a force. A lot of that wasn't due to the inability of the soldiers themselves, but came down to the overall mobility of the army, its mules, oxen, etc., and the logistical situation. Men can't walk faster than they can be fed and watered, can't walk faster then an ox cart/wagon carrying supplies. What this means is the standard daily march of an army would be wake up at dawn, eat breakfast, break down camp, march about 10-12 miles to the next watering hole/bivouac site, build new camp. Not fast but faster than most barbarian armies, more disciplined, with a much superior logistics system that allowed the Romans to out maneuver their enemy.

It is noted that Marius reformed his army in North Africa (Jugurthine War) to make it more mobile, which makes sense since the enemy they faced fought unconventionally, predominately with light infantry and cavalry, and had the support of the local population, while the Romans were constantly being harassed and ambushed while they unsuccessfully tried to trap the enemy army. Marius didn't so much as create new techniques, instead he took little used pre-existing TTPs and applied them to his army in Africa, then his army in Gaul (Cimbri War), where all told he commanded major theater armies for seven straight years (107-105 BC, 104-101 BC). Owning to the successes Marius had, and that most future top notch generals are known or suspected to have served with him in Africa or Gaul, this explains the great transformation of the Roman army in skill and training during the Late Republic.

When it comes to mobility there is the Marius' Mules, which possibly was created to explain Marius, as a young officer, being a stickler for inspecting the mules. But the more common explanation is the increased load for the common foot soldier, it deals with him removing the traditional personal mule that all soldiers had been allowed to bring (if they had the means to own it). But mules eat more food and drink more water than people, while the army definitely needed a mule for the mess section/tent group as well for other groups, the normal infantryman didn't need his own mule. So Marius abolished the use, sold off the extras, making the men carry all their own equipment, using a single mule per tent mess section to carry collective equipment (tents and shit). He did the same with personal slaves, he allowed a single Calo (camp servant) per tent section (and to mind the single mule), with only officers allowed to have their own man. Marius is not the first one to do this, Philip II did it with his Phalanx, previous Roman generals had done something similar. With Romans, it was a common custom for armies operating in hilly Spain as they chased bandits and rebels. And it just so happens that Marius spend most of his adulthood campaigning in Spain (this is hugely important).  It greatly eased the logistics burden, making the army more mobile, with less fodder needed, less foraging needed to be conducted (which was time consuming and which led to ambush),

Next, the Furca, the marching pole. Marius didn't create that either, sources describe conditioning marches with heavy loads a hundred years before Marius, though they don't mention furca, they would have had to have used them to carry the heavy loads, as they did not carry rucksacks. Again, this is something that armies occupying Spain were known to use, as they needed more mobility to deal with guerrillas, rebels, bandits. While previous generals only used these advanced TTPs for tough theaters, Marius was the first to take these advanced mobility TTPs and apply them to "normal" use in other wars, like in Africa and Gaul, and then his successors used them everywhere, so the techniques became standardized. The furca allowed a comfortable method of carrying a few days worth of prepared food (hard tack, salted meat, etc), water, extra tunics, foraging gear, entrenching equipment, hygiene equipment, etc. With the scutum shield carrying on the back like a backpack (it is known to have rings screwed into it for this function), with the furca sitting on top of the scutum.

Caesar, nephew of Marius, was probably the most mobile Roman general ever. His audacious speed marches were so impressive that even today its hard to believe, thirty Roman miles a day for weeks at a time. He outmaneuvered all his enemy, whether they be Gallic warriors or fellow Romans, who did not possess armies capable of moving with such speed. Caesar slashed everything that could slow him down, and having a large army of 4-12 legions in a single theater, he could detach numerous legions to protect the slower baggage train (large stockpiles of food and fodder, siege equipment, forge equipment, booty) while the main force of his legions could speed march with a few days worth of food and little else, with those forces actually being led by a force that was not even carrying any additional equipment, just arms and armor (with their sustainment equipment carried in the main force mule supply train).

Caesar's tradition carried on, with both Marcus Antonius and Augustus/Agrippa using Marius' and Caesar's mobility TTPs. Those same techniques would go on when Augustus cemented the Pax Romana, and the legions became professional, long standing garrison units.

Of course.

Attached File

In that time period, most people were dead by 40, so it didn't matter.  Also, the Legions would go easier on the veterans.

You realize that using the wheel to increase efficiency only works if you have a mostly flat surface to roll it on. If the cultures didn't have roads or similar (either by lack of investment, or lack of knowledge) the wheel would be known about but not used. Without a road system a wheel is kinda useless. There are villiages in AK where nobody owns a car, just 4 wheelers and snowmobiles, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO ROADS.

Soldiers of the Roman Legions had around an 80% chance of surviving to retirement.  It was actually a pretty good gig.

I made a mostly correct set of lorica segmentata(the bands around torso with strips on shoulders).  I couldn't afford leather strapping in some interior spots so used nylon webbing. Used copper rivets, correct hinges, ect ect. I also ran out of metal and had to skip the shoulders , they were basically 2 pieces and detached at the pectoralis level. All in all It was VERY good at taking a hit in the protected areas (think grown man swinging 1.5 inch x 6 foot rattan stick and NAILING you in the ribs, losing your balance, going "oofh", falling over "dead" then getting up and going back to the meat grinder). It was also very comfy, heavy but comfy. I could wear it for 8ish hours of fighting and not be crippled(rules required I not wear the sandals, so I wore my old army boots).

I subscribe to this methodology and also require a pool and driving range at any forward location that wishes to be graced by my presence.

We've done this thread a few times.

Reconstructions put the weight at around 20lbs which is about 3.5lbs more than interceptor body armor with plates.

Not really, average lifespan was short because of infant mortality. If you survived childhood you had a pretty good chance of living to be an old person.

Yes, its doable

They never carried 100 lbs. and IIRC, it took 5 years to train a Roman soldier. They were highly trained and very fit. Could march long distances with little food and minimal water. And when they got where they were going, they often had to join the fight right then. Not only did they win the fight more often than not, but they had energy to spare for rape and pillaging. So, those guys were fit.

Meh. What have they ever done for us?

Good stuff by Steinhab.

And it hammers home the point that merely dabbling in stories about antiquity is never going to afford you a complete picture.  You can't just read a wikipedia entry and equate things to modern constructs.  That applies to topics like this, politics, religion...the world was very very different then, and to truly try and draw parallels you really do have to dive completely into the subject and read many books looking at many different aspects of life back then.

My old knees hurt just thinking about that hump.

I never thought about it like that.   I guess there were no suitable plains in Africa or N. America.  

The Egyptians used chariots.

Building roads is an enormous expenditure of energy and resources. A culture needs to have a pretty good reason to do it. Nomadic tribes in North America probably didn't see much point in building and maintaining roads.

fall asleep on guard duty and your centurion took your head

That is pretty funny, right there.

Sounds like Crossfit before Crossfit was a thing.

That is possible but really hauling if you consider the footwear, nutrition, stature of the Roman soldier.  Most training stories get more hardcore the more you tell them so I would lean towards gross exaggeration...show me modern Italian troops that can hump like that.

Without Rome, the Christian religion would never have gotten the traction it did and may have been wiped out completely by Islam.

That's something, no?

Rome contributed more to our culture than anyone else. For centuries, all scholarly texts were written in Latin. Before Latin, in Greek. An man could not call himself educated unless he spoke both Latin and Greek. And that was the standard until about WWI.

Really?

Really, what? Which part do you disagree with, if any?

That was me also.
I hated runs.
But for some tard reason I liked to ruck.
Even when my legs turned to jelly going up hills, I liked it .

This. 

That pace was for rapid travel - not moving to engage.

That's not why the first inhabitants of the Americas didn't build roads, they just weren't terribly bright.

When Europeans first arrived here the natives were subsisting on Stone Age technology, and would still be today if not for colonization.

Yeah, but as a whole society wasn't worried that a 40 year old had back problems back then.  There wasn't an expectation that you would have some active retirement period where you traveled the Med. in cruise ships.  When you got old you either sat around and passed wisdom onto your many children and grandchildren, or you did sedentary work.

I didn't know they were that light. Interesting.