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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:29:04 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: What a worthless ponzi scheme program And since I'm self-employed I have to pay DOUBLE social security By the time I retire it won't even exist. Instead, if I put that money in an IRA I would receive a much better return. But no, government knows best  I completely agree with you. But there are around 61,000,000 people who rely on it. It was that high in 2012 anyway, which is a little more than 1/5 the population. But lets just say for shits and giggles that only 1/10 of them need it to survive. That's roughly 6 million people. More than the population of Maryland. We pretty much need to keep it going at this point to keep those 6 million people from being homeless and starving. Sucks, but it's the truth, and it's probably much more than just 1/10 that rely on it to eat. Now, I'm a cold hearted capitalist bastard, but by the numbers, we can't just discontinue it. What we need is a new way to do this, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:29:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? Realistically? The ones who could work, would have to work. The ones who couldn't would starve or move in family. I have seen a metric shit-ton of old people finances. The vast majority have next to nothing in the bank (<$50K) and no other income outside of Social Security. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:29:20 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am 52 and paying paying in since I was 18. I want my money back. I will get a freakin lawyer if they tell me nothing is there. I will sue the government and represent myself if I have to. Your money is gone. You are not "paying in" to anything. Your money is being used as it comes in, and not enough is coming in anyway, so more has to come from other sources. Exactly this |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:30:27 AM EDT
[#4]
The simple answer is path dependence.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:30:34 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? The dumb ones that didn't plan ahead would be broke, and would either find some sort of job they could still do, find someone off of which to mooch, or starve to death. It sucks, but that's how it was for a couple thousand generations. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:31:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? Realistically? The ones who could work, would have to work. The ones who couldn't would starve or move in family. I have seen a metric shit-ton of old people finances. The vast majority have next to nothing in the bank (<$50K) and no other income outside of Social Security. skyrocketing levels of little old homeless people isn't really an answer 
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:31:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Gee, this topic never comes up.
OP, have you been vetted by NorCal yet? You seem familiar. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:32:38 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? Realistically? The ones who could work, would have to work. The ones who couldn't would starve or move in family. I have seen a metric shit-ton of old people finances. The vast majority have next to nothing in the bank (<$50K) and no other income outside of Social Security. skyrocketing levels of little old homeless people isn't really an answer I don't think we would have many. I think we would just see the elderly moving in with family. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:36:13 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Do I get back all the money I have already put into it? First post strikes again. That's why we can't get rid of it. Nobody wants to be the last one stolen from when it's easier to just steal from the next guy. I'd be more than willing to forfeit everything I've put in, just so long as I can stop contributing to it. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:37:46 AM EDT
[#10]
Because humans are stupid and won't take care of themselves any further out than one week.
Just today on ARFCOM I've read the following: 1) A guy talking about the gun purchases he was going to make once he got paid this week. 
2) Scores of guys talking about how they don't fund their 401k because the government is going to seize them.
3) People who think stocks among other investments are the same as USD cash because they are currently traded in dollars and therefore claim that investing is stupid because the coming hyperinflation will render your investments worthless.
All this on a site that I would presume to be comprised of a membership that is slightly more intelligent than average because they clearly know how to operate a computer and have disposable income for shooting as a hobby. That's why social security is never going away. A good majority of people in this country and a frighteningly high number of people on this website would starve to death in old age. Perhaps we need to fix our stupid human problem before we fix our stupid government problem. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:38:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Social Security would have worked if the Plotiticians didn't start robbing the kitty. The reason we can't get rid of it is because of all the people who spent a lifetime paying in and now need it to survive. If our government would pass a Balanced Budget Amendment, start paying down the debt and putting the money they stole out of the SS fund back into it, it would be viable. But as we all know, none of our elected Plotiticians, Rescumlicans or Demotwats, are interested in anything but exerting thier power over the citizens so nonof this will happen. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:38:45 AM EDT
[#12]
I'd be more than willing to forfeit everything I've put in, just so long as I can stop contributing to it. Me too, but the math wouldn't work. The only way current benefits keep flowing is to keep us poor suckers paying. Quoted:
Social Security would have worked if the Plotiticians didn't start robbing the kitty. The reason we can't get rid of it is because of all the people who spent a lifetime paying in and now need it to survive. If our government would ass a Balanced Budget Amendment, start paying down the debt and putting the money they stole out of the SS fund, it would be viable. But as we all know, none of our elected Plotiticians, Rescumlicans or Demotwats, are interested in anything but exerting thier power over the citizens so nonof this will happen. I respectfully disagree. It was doomed from the start. Any investment vehicle, in order to generate a return, has to include some mechanism for "making money"... making and selling a product, loaning money at interest, buying something that will increase in value... some process where "X dollars" becomes "X dollars + Y". Social security, just like the classic "Ponzi", has no such mechanism, except for finding new people to invest. The difference is, SS "recruits" its new investors via the threat of prison.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:38:57 AM EDT
[#13]
Don't worry about not getting paid. You'll get paid with inflated dollars in the future. You'll be able to use your $5,000 monthly benefits check to buy a cup of coffee...
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:39:42 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
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Quoted:
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Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? Realistically? The ones who could work, would have to work. The ones who couldn't would starve or move in family. I have seen a metric shit-ton of old people finances. The vast majority have next to nothing in the bank (<$50K) and no other income outside of Social Security. skyrocketing levels of little old homeless people isn't really an answer I don't think we would have many. I think we would just see the elderly moving in with family. I think this would most likely occur. People would work until they were no longer able to work. Then, they'd move in with family where they would live until their care needs exceeded the caregivers' skills. So, as soon as grandpa is no longer able to turn himself in bed, his skin starts breaking down and he gets infections and dies. Or, when grandpa can no longer swallow his food without getting some in his lungs, he get pneumonia and dies. Of course, this ignores those who were prepared for retirement through investments, pensions, or plain old good luck. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:39:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
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skyrocketing levels of little old homeless people isn't really an answer I don't think we would have many. I think we would just see the elderly moving in with family. There are many elderly out there without family or close friends. Our old machinist at my last job died alone in his home and nobody knew until I got worried and asked the cops to do a welfare check. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:41:23 AM EDT
[#16]
These threads are always fun. I've given my .02 on the ponzi scheme in other threads, so I'll say this:
We can't get rid of SS because the AARP claims a membership of 38 mil and have made reform/repeal a toxic issue in DC. Too bad the NRA doesn't have 40 million members, isn't it? |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:41:36 AM EDT
[#17]
"I'd be more than willing to forfeit everything I've put in, just so long as I can stop contributing to it."
Me also. Let me cut my loses. Everything is corrupt. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:42:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Why can't we get rid of it?
Because the government does not relinquish a power to tax once they have attained it. Period.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:43:11 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
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Do I get back all the money I have already put into it? ^ that's why you'll never get rid of it. People like that piss me off. Willing to screw over future generations because of selfishness. Yeah; those cheap bastards are pissed off because their own contributions, paid in over a lifetime of work, was used to pay for what your fathers and mothers received in benefits. How 'bout you volunteer to pay it back to them? 
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:43:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Then you had better damn well hope you are never disabled.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:45:00 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
I am 52 and paying paying in since I was 18. I want my money back. I will get a freakin lawyer if they tell me nothing is there. I will sue the government and represent myself if I have to. And this is why we'll never get rid of it. I'm 30 and I'll be paying "your" money for the rest of my working life. "your" money went to your parents and their parents. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:46:00 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
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Do I get back all the money I have already put into it? ^ that's why you'll never get rid of it. People like that piss me off. Willing to screw over future generations because of selfishness. Yeah; those cheap bastards are pissed off because their own contributions, paid in over a lifetime of work, was used to pay for what your fathers and mothers received in benefits. How 'bout you volunteer to pay it back to them?
I don't have to volunteer to pay it back. We'll all be paying it back with an inflated currency and a bad economy. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:46:40 AM EDT
[#23]
So many socialists dressed up as conservatives on this site.
Anytime you start saying, "we need this government program...." You should stop and really think about what you are saying. For the topic at hand, I would start by reading history and see what people back in the stone age did before we had social security. 
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:47:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Imagine what would happen if we only used S.S dollars collected for S.S...... It's an interesting question and I don't think the answer you get would be what you expect. I've still yet to wrap my head around it but remember that all pension/trust funds have to keep their surplus money (i.e. money above and beyond what is paid out) in SOMETHING. What's the historically safest thing to invest those funds in? ...U.S. Government Debt. 
That's pretty much what is happening right now. The SS Trust fund isn't empty or broke, it's just invested all it's surplus in U.S Government Debt. The SS Trust Fund is not allowed to invest in stocks or non-government bonds so what's the alternative? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm truly asking because I haven't yet wrapped my head around it. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:48:55 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Then you had better damn well hope you are never disabled. Yeah Like all the 19 year olds who are on it for depression and add Great program I tell ya! |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:51:04 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
So many socialists dressed up as conservatives on this site. Anytime you start saying, "we need this government program...." You should stop and really think about what you are saying. For the topic at hand, I would start by reading history and see what people back in the stone age did before we had social security. Yeah, I'm very surprised at how many people on here support the program A lot of the responses are basically "people are too dumb to take care of themselves" If that's the case, then lets implement government healthcare and more welfare along with a whole plethora of social programs. The more the merrier, right? Let's ban guns too. Some people are too dumb to own guns. After all, people are too dumb to take care of themselves, lets have government do it. Isn't that the mindset of progressives? |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:51:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? Realistically? The ones who could work, would have to work. The ones who couldn't would starve or move in family. I have seen a metric shit-ton of old people finances. The vast majority have next to nothing in the bank (<$50K) and no other income outside of Social Security. skyrocketing levels of little old homeless people isn't really an answer Neithier bankrupting our country |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:53:38 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
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Then you had better damn well hope you are never disabled. Yeah Like all the 19 year olds who are on it for depression and add Great program I tell ya! There are those that need it to survive. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:54:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Because it or not, even with its flaws, is a necessary social safety net. If your assertion is correct, can you explain how this country survived so long without it? |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:55:50 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
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Quoted:
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Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? Realistically? The ones who could work, would have to work. The ones who couldn't would starve or move in family. I have seen a metric shit-ton of old people finances. The vast majority have next to nothing in the bank (<$50K) and no other income outside of Social Security. skyrocketing levels of little old homeless people isn't really an answer Neithier bankrupting our country Right. Because leaving our elderly to die on the street because it's 'their problem' is a better solution. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:56:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? I also wonder what would happen $2.7 Trillion currently in the trust fund which is invested in US Debt. Send everyone a treasury bond on a prorated basis? |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:56:38 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
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Then you had better damn well hope you are never disabled. Yeah Like all the 19 year olds who are on it for depression and add Great program I tell ya! There are those that need it to survive. People would still survive. Family is a great safety net, along with churches, and other private charity. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:57:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
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Then you had better damn well hope you are never disabled. Yeah Like all the 19 year olds who are on it for depression and add Great program I tell ya! There are those that need it to survive. There are those who get run over by dump trucks too.... maybe the government should pass a law keeping them alive too...
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:57:29 AM EDT
[#34]
Not enough votes.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:57:58 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Right. Because leaving our elderly to die on the street because it's 'their problem' is a better solution. Nobody wants that and it isn't being proposed. People got along just fine before SS.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:59:07 AM EDT
[#36]
So happy I don't have to pay into it, at least directly.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:59:43 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Right. Because leaving our elderly to die on the street because it's 'their problem' is a better solution. Nobody wants that and it isn't being proposed. People got along just fine before SS. I look at it this way: 1. Start educating people about the importance of saving for retirement. We could use a small amount of tax funds to achieve this. Also begin teaching it in schools early and often. 2. If you're too stupid and irresponsible to save anything come retirement age, then you are just going to have to rely on your family In most other countries it's very common for your family to care for you at old age, not sure why it isn't in the USA. If you don't have family then there's churches/charity as someone mentioned. Either way it would be saving a ton of money, shedding a broken program, and rewarding people for personal responsibility. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:01:14 PM EDT
[#38]
You guys are right. I want all that money I paid in, plus compounded interest that helped your parents and grandparents. Those rotten, lazy-ass freeloaders! Who cares if they worked 40 years? Fuck 'em.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:02:10 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
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Right. Because leaving our elderly to die on the street because it's 'their problem' is a better solution. Nobody wants that and it isn't being proposed. People got along just fine before SS. I'm down with a slow weaning off of it. Or the proposed age limit of 80 sounded like a good idea. We've gotten ourselves into a real pickle. Think of it like my MIL. MIL doesn't have money, and wants a (insert useless item here). MIL decides she can't wait until payday for said unnecessary item, so she goes and gets a payday loan. MIL finds she's overspent and can't pay off payday loan. MIL gets another payday loan to cover her now in-the-red bank account, plus the int erest on the other payday loan. And so on. MIL needs to wean off the dependency on money that isn't hers. And that's what the US needs to do. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:10:25 PM EDT
[#40]
I should add that the main reason why social security won't be disposed of (until the economic collapse) is that the funds collected under the SSI tax goes towards the General Fund. Politicians count on spending that money and stopping a politician from spending is like stopping a druggie from taking drugs.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:10:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Then you had better damn well hope you are never disabled. Yeah I know two people that are disabled collecting social security. #1 is a mid 40s drunk, that can't hold a job because he'd rather drink. He's been collecting for a couple of years. #2 is a early 40s women that claims she can't work because of "anxiety". Both could work but choose not to. Both learned how to scam the system. Both work odd jobs under the table from time to time. When the economy started going down hill back in 2008, the number of disability claims skyrocketed. Every bum you see hanging out on the side of the road or in a park is also getting a check every month. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:12:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
I should add that the main reason why social security won't be disposed of (until the economic collapse) is that the funds collected under the SSI tax goes towards the General Fund. Politicians count on spending that money and stopping a politician from spending is like stopping a druggie from taking drugs. Except for the fact that sometimes, once in a while, you can get a druggie to rehab and it will take. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:14:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Do I get back all the money I have already put into it? Nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemming_v._Nestor |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:16:53 PM EDT
[#44]
There is no pool of money that funds SS. The government uses all that it takes in to finance all of the programs that it runs, to fill all the grants that it gives out, and pay interest on the outstanding debt etc.
The government is so dependent or the money that SS generates that it cannot afford to it shut it down nor allow people to opt out. The only way that it would happen would be replacing it with a massive tax increase in one form or another. Either way, the citizens will continue to pay up. It would take a complete tear down and rebuilding of the government to change it. It is not a left wing or right wing football, both parties know that. Each side will make sure that the money continues to be taken in one way or another. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:17:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Sincere question... What would happen to all the little old folks living on it? I would assume they would immediately qualify for all the other welfare programs so it wouldn't matter to them. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:20:02 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
1. Start educating people about the importance of saving for retirement. We could use a small amount of tax funds to achieve this. Also begin teaching it in schools early and often. You don't really think that Congress is going to mandate that children be taught fiscal responsibility do you? That would amount to committing political suicide. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:21:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Quoted: I should add that the main reason why social security won't be disposed of (until the economic collapse) is that the funds collected under the SSI tax goes towards the General Fund. Politicians count on spending that money and stopping a politician from spending is like stopping a druggie from taking drugs. Except for the fact that sometimes, once in a while, you can get a druggie to rehab and it will take. For a politician addicted to spending, removal from office is your best chance at a successful rehab. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:22:03 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Do I get back all the money I have already put into it? Let me put on my FSA hat. I WANT MY FUCKING MONEY BITCHES! |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:23:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
There is no pool of money that funds SS. The government uses all that it takes in to finance all of the programs that it runs, to fill all the grants that it gives out, and pay interest on the outstanding debt etc. The government is so dependent or the money that SS generates that it cannot afford to it shut it down nor allow people to opt out. The only way that it would happen would be replacing it with a massive tax increase in one form or another. Either way, the citizens will continue to pay up. It would take a complete tear down and rebuilding of the government to change it. It is not a left wing or right wing football, both parties know that. Each side will make sure that the money continues to be taken in one way or another. Well, technically, you can opt out, if your parents never get you a SSN, though that means they can't list you as a dependant. And you still have to pay the tax anyway. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 12:23:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
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Do I get back all the money I have already put into it? ^ that's why you'll never get rid of it. People like that piss me off. Willing to screw over future generations because of selfishness. Yeah; those cheap bastards are pissed off because their own contributions, paid in over a lifetime of work, was used to pay for what your fathers and mothers received in benefits. How 'bout you volunteer to pay it back to them?
Except that the people who are collecting now were the ones who elected the politicians who initially stole the SS fund & put it in the general fund so they didn't have to cut spending or pay higher taxes at the time. |
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