USA Invaded and the President Orders You To Surrender : Lawful Order? Do You Follow It?

Site Notices

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - USA Invaded and the President Orders You To Surrender : Lawful Order? Do You Follow It? (Page 1 of 4)

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:18:10 PM EDT

Hypothetical:

USA is invaded and the President immediately announces a full unconditional surrender to the invading force. The President issues orders to surrender immediately and offer no resistance. You're an enlisted man or officer in the US Military. Do you obey? Is it a legal order?

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:19:32 PM EDT

[#1]

I would say that once he surrenders he is no longer the president...

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:19:36 PM EDT

[#2]

Fuck no!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:20:22 PM EDT

[#3]

Nope.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:20:49 PM EDT

[#4]

Why would I follow an order from Maobama?

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:20:53 PM EDT

[#5]

Lock'N'Load.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:20:58 PM EDT

[#6]

hell no. I'd go join a resistence group. No invader is welcome, as far as I am concerned.

Death before dishonor, mother fucker.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:21:09 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Fuck no!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:22:08 PM EDT

[#8]

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:22:50 PM EDT

[#9]

I do not believe that obedience to government is obedience to god so no, I fight!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:23:02 PM EDT

[#10]

the Halfrican is not a God emperor. Maybe if we're unconditionally surrendering to an opposing force of massively overwhelming superiority (think: Imperial Death Star parked in orbit).

But based on current US Armed Forces, vs the rest of the world? Naah, we'd need a new CIC.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:23:07 PM EDT

[#11]

No way.

Surrender means the end of constitutional protection of rights. Once that's gone, you're better off risking your life to get it back than living a long time without it.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:23:11 PM EDT

[#12]

Well, it's like Bugs said.

"You have me dead to rights, Doc; do you want to shoot me now or wait till you get home?"

I opt for the shoot me later.
________________________________________________
("Well, you can either escape or stay here to be executed."––Dalmar
"I opt for choice A."––Ezri Dax to Worf, (w,stte) DS 9 "Strange Bedfellows")

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:23:40 PM EDT

[#13]

It would be a lawful order... to a member of the armed forces. He is their commander in chief.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:23:49 PM EDT

[#14]

yes, but not only do I surrender, I fall lock step in with his party and join them. Hell I would promote them!
Seriously wtf kind of question is this?

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:23:50 PM EDT

[#15]

depends, do the invaders intend to uphold the constitution?

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:25:06 PM EDT

[#16]

My stash of 45,308,and 5.56 is going to come in handy. And when I run out. Out come the single action vaquero's and my winchester 94. I have mucho 45 Colt.

Those would be some dead ass invading forces.
Oh and FUCK OBAMA.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:25:17 PM EDT

[#17]

them sumbitchs come into this country, i'd bet my ass nobody would surrender. if they ever invade us, they'd best bring plenty of armored columns with them, every man in this country is gonna be pot-shotting at their junky ass

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:26:09 PM EDT

[#18]

Fuck that.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:26:52 PM EDT

[#19]

Did the Senate Advise and Consent to the surrender?

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:27:20 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I would say that once he surrenders he is no longer the president...

This.

Quoted:
Fuck no!

And that.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:27:51 PM EDT

[#21]

He can go fuck himself. That's a dangerous order that will get people needlessly killed. I'll be ignoring that one. I'll be dead lying on a pile of brass before I surrender.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:28:28 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

It would be a lawful order... to a member of the armed forces. He is their commander in chief.

I have an uncle that refused an order from General MacArthur to surrender to the Japanese in the Philippines. He commanded Filipino guerrilla unit in Northern Luzon. He was captured and executed. Supposedly he was denied the MOH because he disobeyed an order.

Not all orders are justified.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:28:32 PM EDT

[#23]

My Oath made no mention of obedience to the President, but rather the Constitution...

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:30:00 PM EDT

[#24]

Fuck no.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:30:25 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I would say that once he surrenders he is no longer the president...

THIS.

–– John

ETA: I am not in the military. I am under no obligation to do anything the President orders me to do. Period.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:31:11 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

My Oath made no mention of obedience to the President, but rather the Constitution...

No? Yours must have been different than mine:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:31:16 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
It would be a lawful order... to a member of the armed forces. He is their commander in chief.

Yup. It's one of the advantages of being a civilian.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:31:40 PM EDT

[#28]

No.

Military or civilian, NO.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:32:16 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My Oath made no mention of obedience to the President, but rather the Constitution...

No? Yours must have been different than mine:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Oops!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:33:29 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

It would be a lawful order... to a member of the armed forces. He is their commander in chief.

If foreigners are calling the shots, he is commander in chief of nobody.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:33:35 PM EDT

[#31]

40% of the country would surrender. I'm not in that 40%.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:33:47 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fuck no!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:34:43 PM EDT

[#33]

WOLVERINES!!!

damn ARFCOM ya'll are slippin!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:34:54 PM EDT

[#34]

Fuck no.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:35:45 PM EDT

[#35]

If Oblamba surrenders, all bets are off !

If the bad guys invade, I will stand for freedom of the individual, fight and die for what I believe

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:36:23 PM EDT

[#36]

Fuck obama.

And no! He isn't my President. He can surrender his fucking Kenyan ass.

My ass will fight to the death.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:36:38 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

hell no. I'd go join a resistence group. No invader is welcome, as far as I am concerned.

Death before dishonor, mother fucker.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:36:54 PM EDT

[#38]

Sit on my porch and pop commies.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:37:49 PM EDT

[#39]

Where is Dave_A?

I HAVE to read his take on this...

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:37:57 PM EDT

[#40]

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:38:00 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fuck no!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:38:18 PM EDT

[#42]

I just became an unlawful combatant. As soon as he gave that order, I'm no longer a part of the military and thus not subject to lawful orders anymore.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:38:52 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Fuck no!

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:39:23 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My Oath made no mention of obedience to the President, but rather the Constitution...

No? Yours must have been different than mine:

Indeed.

"I, _____, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

I've sworn the Oath of Enlistment, as well. But that was superseded by my current office. And I take my responsibilities seriously.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:40:35 PM EDT

[#45]

I do not believe an order to unconditionally surrender is a lawful order. Therefore I would not surrender.

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:40:57 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My Oath made no mention of obedience to the President, but rather the Constitution...

No? Yours must have been different than mine:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Heres why I expect the military to take guns etc if told to do so, everyone mentions the part in blue, but they always forget this part-

"I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;"

I know which is more important and it does happen to come first

Posted: 7/20/2010 3:42:01 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

My Oath made no mention of obedience to the President, but rather the Constitution...

No? Yours must have been different than mine:

Indeed.

"I, _____, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

I've sworn the Oath of Enlistment, as well. But that was superseded by my current office. And I take my responsibilities seriously.

when did it change?