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Posted: 9/10/2013 12:58:39 PM EDT

[#1]

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Webster's definition means nothing to me. He didn't write the words of life. Please show me using scripture that salvation is a process over time to be able to obtain it.

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That was not the point of any of my posts, or of this thread. So you are looking for the phrase 'salvation is a process' in the scripture then? If you came in here for the sole purpose of being obtuse, then please go elsewhere.

BTW, the definition was not from Webster's. And while you are furiously scouring the scriptures please find the phrase 'this book is to be the sole source of authority and revelation' or maybe 'upon this book I will build my church' or even 'the scripture is the pillar and foundation of truth.'

Posted: 9/10/2013 4:02:30 PM EDT

[#2]

3. When your mind is renewed you stop finding pleasure in the world of sin because you now see it for what it is. Instead, you crave the relationship with God and you don't want to be seperated from Him again. The chains of sin have been broken and we are free from sin. Not in the meaning that we can't sin, but in the meaning that we are no longer slaves to sin, we no longer desire sin. Not by our power but by Jesus defeating sin on the cross.

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I appreciate the full text of your explanation and am grateful for the perspective.

I struggle with...Just by the Grace of Baptism, the Holy Spirit removes the desire to sin and we are no longer bound to sin because we no longer desire it.

Grace is what Christ gives us and we can never earn or repay it. Baptism is an outward sign of initiation uniting us with Christ.

Since we were made in God's image I think the desire to have a relationship with our creator is intrinsic to all even before we are taught about God. The desire to not sin is where you lose me. It rejects the lamentations of Romans 7.

Would you agree that not sinning takes some practice? Do we ever get it right the first time? Doesn't it take repeatedly knowing who God is and understanding His love for us? That isn't instantly instilled through baptism. How many of the baptized do you know who leave the pew empty handed on Sunday. Sin and temptation or being selfish feels good and it's a constant battle.

Wouldn't "getting there" be a journey? A process? We cannot do it by ourselves. The apostles were baptize by water AND the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Yet clearly in Romans 7 the desire to sin remains and is discussed. Because we can't do it by ourselves we receive GRACE along the way.

Salvation is the process that our sin will be removed. Christ death and resurrection paid for that.

What scripture says that baptism removed the desire to sin?

Posted: 9/10/2013 5:11:55 PM EDT

[#3]

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Quoted:

I appreciate the full text of your explanation and am grateful for the perspective. I struggle with...Just by the Grace of Baptism, the Holy Spirit removes the desire to sin and we are no longer bound to sin because we no longer desire it.Grace is what Christ gives us and we can never earn or repay it. Baptism is an outward sign of initiation uniting us with Christ.
Since we were made in God's image I think the desire to have a relationship with our creator is intrinsic to all even before we are taught about God. The desire to not sin is where you lose me. It rejects the lamentations of Romans 7.

Would you agree that not sinning takes some practice? Do we ever get it right the first time? Doesn't it take repeatedly knowing who God is and understanding His love for us? That isn't instantly instilled through baptism. How many of the baptized do you know who leave the pew empty handed on Sunday. Sin and temptation or being selfish feels good and it's a constant battle.
Wouldn't "getting there" be a journey? A process? We cannot do it by ourselves. The apostles were baptize by water AND the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Yet clearly in Romans 7 the desire to sin remains and is discussed. Because we can't do it by ourselves we receive GRACE along the way.
Salvation is the process that our sin will be removed. Christ death and resurrection paid for that.

What scripture says that baptism removed the desire to sin?

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Quoted:

3. When your mind is renewed you stop finding pleasure in the world of sin because you now see it for what it is. Instead, you crave the relationship with God and you don't want to be seperated from Him again. The chains of sin have been broken and we are free from sin. Not in the meaning that we can't sin, but in the meaning that we are no longer slaves to sin, we no longer desire sin. Not by our power but by Jesus defeating sin on the cross.

I appreciate the full text of your explanation and am grateful for the perspective. I struggle with...Just by the Grace of Baptism, the Holy Spirit removes the desire to sin and we are no longer bound to sin because we no longer desire it.Grace is what Christ gives us and we can never earn or repay it. Baptism is an outward sign of initiation uniting us with Christ.
Since we were made in God's image I think the desire to have a relationship with our creator is intrinsic to all even before we are taught about God. The desire to not sin is where you lose me. It rejects the lamentations of Romans 7.

Would you agree that not sinning takes some practice? Do we ever get it right the first time? Doesn't it take repeatedly knowing who God is and understanding His love for us? That isn't instantly instilled through baptism. How many of the baptized do you know who leave the pew empty handed on Sunday. Sin and temptation or being selfish feels good and it's a constant battle.
Wouldn't "getting there" be a journey? A process? We cannot do it by ourselves. The apostles were baptize by water AND the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Yet clearly in Romans 7 the desire to sin remains and is discussed. Because we can't do it by ourselves we receive GRACE along the way.
Salvation is the process that our sin will be removed. Christ death and resurrection paid for that.

What scripture says that baptism removed the desire to sin?

It's the fact that we struggle with sin that shows we have a desire not to sin. If we had no desire to stop sinning we wouldn't struggle with it. But when did we desire to not sin, before or after we gave our lives to God? I suspect right before and the whole time after. The first step was realizing we needed forgiveness for our sins and then to repent of our sins. Repenting, or turning away, from sin shows desire to stop sinning. If we desire to do Gods will then we necessarily have to desire to leave sin behind.

Then comes the study of the Word and finding out what pleases God and what displeases Him. There are tons of scripture that talk about gaining knowledge of God. Through that study we will find, or the Holy Spirit will convict us, of sins that we didn't realize was there.

Through the study and prayer our faith and love grows for God. Then we put or faith into action by serving, witnessing, or whatever job God assigns to you.

Will we ever get it right and never sin again? I say no, it's impossible for us to never sin again. That's why Romans 7:24-25 says 24"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

The Christian life is a journey in that our faith and knowledge can always be stronger and deeper and can never be strong or deep enough! But, Hebrews 10:22 "let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. "

Posted: 9/10/2013 8:50:58 PM EDT

[#4]

Painting a car is a process.

There is only one step for Salvation:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Salvation isn't mans to give, take, or lose:

"Salvation belongeth unto the Lord: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah." Psalms 3:8

There is nothing you can do to lose salvation, only the Lord can give it, anything else is works:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. " Isaiah 64:6

Do you seriously think the Lord isn't capable? What else should you do?

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. " II Corinthians 12:9

Your salvation is with God, not some man or a dead person:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" I Timothy 2:5

Posted: 9/11/2013 4:37:30 AM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:
Painting a car is a process.

There is only one step for Salvation:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Salvation isn't mans to give, take, or lose:

"Salvation belongeth unto the Lord: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah." Psalms 3:8

There is nothing you can do to lose salvation, only the Lord can give it, anything else is works:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. " Isaiah 64:6

Do you seriously think the Lord isn't capable? What else should you do?

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. " II Corinthians 12:9

Your salvation is with God, not some man or a dead person:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" I Timothy 2:5

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I respectfully take issue with your statements I have bolded above. If salvation cannot be lost by man, why does Paul warn that scandalizing could lead those with a weak conscience to be "destroyed?" [1cor8] Why does Paul subdue his flesh lest he himself should be "disqualified?" [1cor9]

1 Cor 8 [concerning meat sacrificed to idols]

9 Only take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if any one sees you, a man of knowledge, at table in an idol’s temple, might he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 [And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of my brother’s falling, I will never eat meat, lest I cause my brother to fall.

1 Cor 9

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

Posted: 9/11/2013 5:22:41 AM EDT

[#6]

Agree with last post

Posted: 9/11/2013 8:15:54 AM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:

I respectfully take issue with your statements I have bolded above. If salvation cannot be lost by man, why does Paul warn that scandalizing could lead those with a weak conscience to be "destroyed?" [1cor8] Why does Paul subdue his flesh lest he himself should be "disqualified?" [1cor9]

[div style='margin-left: 40px;']1 Cor 8 [concerning meat sacrificed to idols]

9 Only take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if any one sees you, a man of knowledge, at table in an idol’s temple, might he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 [And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of my brother’s falling, I will never eat meat, lest I cause my brother to fall.

Christians must be mindful of their conduct amongst unbelievers lest they become a stumbling block.

1 Cor 9

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

This is the Roman Catholic proof text that an apostle can lose his salvation, because the popes interpret "castaway" as "going to Hell." The admonition has to do with God "putting man on the shelf" as far as service is concerned because he is useless and not bearing fruit.

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

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Quoted:
Painting a car is a process.

There is only one step for Salvation:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Salvation isn't mans to give, take, or lose:

"Salvation belongeth unto the Lord: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah." Psalms 3:8

There is nothing you can do to lose salvation, only the Lord can give it, anything else is works:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. " Isaiah 64:6

Do you seriously think the Lord isn't capable? What else should you do?

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. " II Corinthians 12:9

Your salvation is with God, not some man or a dead person:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" I Timothy 2:5

I respectfully take issue with your statements I have bolded above. If salvation cannot be lost by man, why does Paul warn that scandalizing could lead those with a weak conscience to be "destroyed?" [1cor8] Why does Paul subdue his flesh lest he himself should be "disqualified?" [1cor9]

[div style='margin-left: 40px;']1 Cor 8 [concerning meat sacrificed to idols]

9 Only take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if any one sees you, a man of knowledge, at table in an idol’s temple, might he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 [And so by your knowledge this weak man is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.12 Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of my brother’s falling, I will never eat meat, lest I cause my brother to fall.

Christians must be mindful of their conduct amongst unbelievers lest they become a stumbling block.

1 Cor 9

24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

This is the Roman Catholic proof text that an apostle can lose his salvation, because the popes interpret "castaway" as "going to Hell." The admonition has to do with God "putting man on the shelf" as far as service is concerned because he is useless and not bearing fruit.

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

You guys need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth instead of wrongly multiplying the letters of lies.

Posted: 9/11/2013 9:19:37 AM EDT

[#8]

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You guys need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth instead of wrongly multiplying the letters of lies.

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First, on what authority do YOU 'rightly divide' the scripture? And how does your authority supersede the interpretation and teaching of the apostles?

Secondly, it would serve you well to do more than read the title of the thread and then post comments. The point of the thread was to display a continuity of thought thru the entire Bible that demonstrates the possibility of losing one's salvation. The subject was an offshoot of another thread recently.

Third, Catholics don't have single, isolated prooftexts for doctrine. That's what evangelicals and fundamentalists do. They don't seem to mind pitting the Word of God against itself.

Posted: 9/11/2013 12:28:35 PM EDT

[#9]

I've never understood the whole Protestant fixation on faith v. works.

Faith is itself a form of work once you think about it. Faith is a choice and choice is impossible to imagine without an agent and an act.

Seriously, try to define faith separate from a concept of will or agency. It's impossible to do so credibly and, from a theological perspective, any act of the human will is a form of 'work'.

The distinction seems odd, especially coming from people with the temerity to accuse others of 'wrongly multiplying the letters of lies'.

Posted: 9/11/2013 5:12:15 PM EDT

[#10]

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. 12 Not as though I has already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching forth myself to those that are before, 14 I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.

The key phrase is 'not as thou I has already attained. He is striving forward, hoping, but not already perfect.

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Colossians clearly indicates that one can be moved away from the faith.

Posted: 9/12/2013 4:09:20 AM EDT

[#11]

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,

1 Timothy 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

These selections from Timothy, whether taken singularly, within broader contexts of surrounding verses or in the context of the pastoral nature of the whole letters, seem to show that a believer can deny Christ and lose the precious gift of salvation.

Posted: 9/12/2013 4:25:44 AM EDT

[#12]

I'm definitely not a once saved always saved kind of person, although I know some who are, like my grandmother. My main issue with it is that it's as if they think you cannot lose your salvation, but I beg to differ. On the other hand, if you're living your life for Christ and seeking His face and have a relationship with Him, He isn't going to withdraw His salvation from you, afterall He says He will never leave us or forsake us. The enemy cannot pluck us out of His hand either, but I do feel that we can jump out of His hand by choice if we no longer desire to follow Him.

As for salvation being a process, I would tend to think that sanctification is a process, but not so much salvation. The reason is because in 1 John it clearly says that if we repent the He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Nothing about that denotes that it's a process for HIM to forgive US. Now it's a process for US to conform our lives around HIM, but not for HIM to forgive and save US. Also we are saved by grace, through faith and NOT of works lest any man should boast...and it sounds to me that if you truly think that salvation is a process then that infers that it takes work to be saved which is not Biblical in the least, it says just the opposite.

The Lord knows our hearts. He knows if we're sincere or not so we aren't going to fool Him. If we are sincere, His forgiveness is instant, not a process. If we aren't sincere (like if we aren't truly repenting) He knows that too. BTW I'm not a Catholic by any means, so when I say repent I'm not talking about confessing your sins to someone else to be absolved, but to the only Mediator there ever has been, Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach Himself.

Posted: 9/12/2013 5:27:56 AM EDT

[#13]

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Quoted:

First, on what authority do YOU 'rightly divide' the scripture? And how does your authority supersede the interpretation and teaching of the apostles?

Secondly, it would serve you well to do more than read the title of the thread and then post comments. The point of the thread was to display a continuity of thought thru the entire Bible that demonstrates the possibility of losing one's salvation. The subject was an offshoot of another thread recently.

Third, Catholics don't have single, isolated prooftexts for doctrine. That's what evangelicals and fundamentalists do. They don't seem to mind pitting the Word of God against itself.

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Quoted:

You guys need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth instead of wrongly multiplying the letters of lies.

First, on what authority do YOU 'rightly divide' the scripture? And how does your authority supersede the interpretation and teaching of the apostles?

Secondly, it would serve you well to do more than read the title of the thread and then post comments. The point of the thread was to display a continuity of thought thru the entire Bible that demonstrates the possibility of losing one's salvation. The subject was an offshoot of another thread recently.

Third, Catholics don't have single, isolated prooftexts for doctrine. That's what evangelicals and fundamentalists do. They don't seem to mind pitting the Word of God against itself.

Then you need to change the thread title OP, cause your thread title and what in bold is two different things biblically speaking

Posted: 9/12/2013 6:23:18 AM EDT

[#14]

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Then you need to change the thread title OP, cause your thread title and what in bold is two different things biblically speaking

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You guys need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth instead of wrongly multiplying the letters of lies.

First, on what authority do YOU 'rightly divide' the scripture? And how does your authority supersede the interpretation and teaching of the apostles?

Secondly, it would serve you well to do more than read the title of the thread and then post comments. The point of the thread was to display a continuity of thought thru the entire Bible that demonstrates the possibility of losing one's salvation. The subject was an offshoot of another thread recently.

Third, Catholics don't have single, isolated prooftexts for doctrine. That's what evangelicals and fundamentalists do. They don't seem to mind pitting the Word of God against itself.

Then you need to change the thread title OP, cause your thread title and what in bold is two different things biblically speaking

I posted the definition of 'process' earlier which was soundly rejected because it wasn't in the Bible. LOL. See definition two -- a continuous action, etc.

Its really difficult to get any traction in a thread when semantic distractions are constantly brought up by people who base their entire opinion on the title and never read the text.

Posted: 9/12/2013 9:56:32 AM EDT

[#15]

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I'm definitely not a once saved always saved kind of person, although I know some who are, like my grandmother. My main issue with it is that it's as if they think you cannot lose your salvation, but I beg to differ. On the other hand, if you're living your life for Christ and seeking His face and have a relationship with Him, He isn't going to withdraw His salvation from you, afterall He says He will never leave us or forsake us. The enemy cannot pluck us out of His hand either, but I do feel that we can jump out of His hand by choice if we no longer desire to follow Him.

As for salvation being a process, I would tend to think that sanctification is a process, but not so much salvation. The reason is because in 1 John it clearly says that if we repent the He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Nothing about that denotes that it's a process for HIM to forgive US. Now it's a process for US to conform our lives around HIM, but not for HIM to forgive and save US. Also we are saved by grace, through faith and NOT of works lest any man should boast...and it sounds to me that if you truly think that salvation is a process then that infers that it takes work to be saved which is not Biblical in the least, it says just the opposite.

The Lord knows our hearts. He knows if we're sincere or not so we aren't going to fool Him. If we are sincere, His forgiveness is instant, not a process. If we aren't sincere (like if we aren't truly repenting) He knows that too. BTW I'm not a Catholic by any means, so when I say repent I'm not talking about confessing your sins to someone else to be absolved, but to the only Mediator there ever has been, Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach Himself.

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sigh

Posted: 9/13/2013 6:18:00 AM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:

First, on what authority do YOU 'rightly divide' the scripture? And how does your authority supersede the interpretation and teaching of the apostles?

Secondly, it would serve you well to do more than read the title of the thread and then post comments. The point of the thread was to display a continuity of thought thru the entire Bible that demonstrates the possibility of losing one's salvation. The subject was an offshoot of another thread recently.

Third, Catholics don't have single, isolated prooftexts for doctrine. That's what evangelicals and fundamentalists do. They don't seem to mind pitting the Word of God against itself.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You guys need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth instead of wrongly multiplying the letters of lies.

First, on what authority do YOU 'rightly divide' the scripture? And how does your authority supersede the interpretation and teaching of the apostles?

Secondly, it would serve you well to do more than read the title of the thread and then post comments. The point of the thread was to display a continuity of thought thru the entire Bible that demonstrates the possibility of losing one's salvation. The subject was an offshoot of another thread recently.

Third, Catholics don't have single, isolated prooftexts for doctrine. That's what evangelicals and fundamentalists do. They don't seem to mind pitting the Word of God against itself.

Authority is the pride of man, much like titles...

I don't have to supercede anyone, truth is truth. Full stop.

Last, your thread title vs content is obama, Salvation is of the Lord: not just what you think it is. Change your thread title and I'll go on.

Posted: 9/13/2013 6:58:22 AM EDT

[#17]

If I may add a few references to some good points:

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Authority is the pride of man (Matthew 20:20-28), much like titles... (Matthew 23:1-12)

I don't have to supercede anyone, truth is truth. Full stop. (1 John 2:26,27)

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Posted: 9/13/2013 2:40:23 PM EDT

[#18]

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Authority is the pride of man, much like titles...

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Authority is the pride of man, much like titles...

Except that authority was given by Jesus Christ in the scripture itself.

I don't have to supercede anyone, truth is truth. Full stop.

Your truth is your truth. It is nice to know that apostle and prophet GATITO has proclaimed his truth is irrefutable some 2000 years removed from the event whereas the opinions and teachings of those who were actually witnesses of the risen Lord are meaningless.

Last, your thread title vs content is obama, Salvation is of the Lord: not just what you think it is. Change your thread title and I'll go on.

Meh, just go on anyway. Or start your own thread. Or, you could just troll along silently, reading the overwhelming weight of scripture and authoritative teaching from the Church fathers that I will post as I finish out this thread.

Thanks for your contribution.

Posted: 9/13/2013 2:47:11 PM EDT

[#19]

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest perhaps there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, to depart from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, whilst it is called to day, that none of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ: yet so, if we hold the beginning of his substance firm unto the end.

Hebrews 4:14 Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.

Must hold fast or we 'are fallen away.'

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Posted: 9/13/2013 4:16:55 PM EDT

[#20]

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

What is this process you speak of? It wouldn't involve the Eucharist, where Jesus is offered up as a sacrifice for sin (CCC, 1367) untold times a day in Catholic churches around the world, would it?

Posted: 9/13/2013 7:42:26 PM EDT

[#21]

Got Chick?

You'll have to do better than regurgitate the slander of Jack Chick et al to derail this thread.

Start another thread on the subject, I'll answer.

Posted: 9/13/2013 7:58:51 PM EDT

[#22]

I didn't know Chick wrote the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Do you not believe that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is a means of grace, there by a part of the salvation process?

eta:Or are you claiming that Jack Chick wrote the book of Hebrews?

Posted: 9/13/2013 9:04:57 PM EDT

[#23]

Since Twire doesn't want to dialogue, I'll tell you what Catholics believe about the salvation process.

Catholics believe in sanctifying grace, also known as habitual grace. In addition, they also believe in something known as actual grace.

Sanctifying grace is described as constant, but not permanent, as it can be forfeited by committing mortal sin. It is acquired through the Sacrament of Baptism, and if lost, can be re-acquired through the Sacrament of Penance.

Actual grace is used to empower righteous living, and is not considered constant, but has to replenished, kind of like eating food. Partaking of the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the primary means of this grace, so I am mystified why Twire is upset with me bringing this into the discussion.

Here are some CCC references:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2000.htm
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2024.htm

Posted: 9/13/2013 9:09:14 PM EDT

[#24]

I'm mystified that by not responding within an hour means that I don't want to dialogue. Sorry, I don't live on this box.

I am not sure of your purpose. There is no Catholic dogma that says or infers that 'we are saved (or salvation occurs) because we participate in the Eucharist.'

Grace is participation in the life of God. All sacraments are sources of grace.

I may be missing your point. But if you want to make some statement about the Eucharist, then start a new thread, I'll be happy to discuss.

Posted: 9/13/2013 9:20:37 PM EDT

[#25]

What I want to know is what the book of Hebrews or the CCC has to do with Jack Chick.

Posted: 9/14/2013 6:14:18 AM EDT

[#26]

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What I want to know is what the book of Hebrews or the CCC has to do with Jack Chick.

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Nothing. Perhaps I have misconstrued your intent.

Posted: 9/14/2013 6:17:46 AM EDT

[#27]

Hebrews 6:15 And so patiently enduring he obtained the promise.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?

Posted: 9/14/2013 3:01:56 PM EDT

[#28]

1 Peter 4:17-19

(ESV)17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And“If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

Posted: 9/15/2013 7:33:22 AM EDT

[#29]

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently, lest any man be wanting to the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder, and by it many be defiled.

James 1:25 But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Posted: 9/16/2013 4:35:52 PM EDT

[#30]

2 Peter 2 5 Leaving the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the wages of iniquity,

2 Peter 2:20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

Demonstrating that those with knowledge of Christ can return to their former ways and lose their salvation. The improper exercise of free will puts us in a precarious place.

The remainder of Biblical references that I have in hand are from Revelation and as one might expect are rather apocolyptic and not as clear as words from the gospel or the letters. I will forego posting those last few quotes unless somebody really wants to see them.

Posted: 9/16/2013 4:41:48 PM EDT

[#31]

So, onto the church fathers. How did they view the 'assurance of salvation.' Could a believer forfeit this incredible gift?

Hermas, circa 150 AD

"For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will not be saved."

"If you do not guard yourself against [anger] you and your house will lose all hope of salvation."

"The apostates and traitors of the church have blasphemed the Lord in their sins. Moreover, they have been ashamed of the name of th Lord by which they were called. These persons, therefore, at the end were lost unto God."

Yeah, not my favorite reference, but I was trying to demonstrate the chronology. If this came from around 150 AD it was only a little more than 60 years after the last books of the NT were penned.

Posted: 9/16/2013 4:46:35 PM EDT

[#32]

Ireneus 180 AD

"We should fear ourselves, least perchance after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but are shut out from His Kingdom. And for that reason, Paul said, 'For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also not spare you."

"Those who do not obey Him, but being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons."

"It as not to those who are on the outside that he said these things, but to us - lest we should be cast forth from the kingdom of God , by doing any such thing."

"Knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness."

Posted: 9/17/2013 6:02:37 PM EDT

[#33]

Tertullian

"The world returned to sin... and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins." AD 198

"For do not many afterwards fall out of [grace]? Is not this gift taken away from many?" AD 203

"He saw that most persons - after obtaining salvation - would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches." AD 213

Clement of Alexandria

"He who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome and narrow. So let him who has once received the Gospel not turn back, like Lot's wife, as is said - even in the very hour in which he has come to the knowledge of salvation. And let him not go back to his former life..." AD 195

Hippolytus of Rome

A Gnostic teacher, "He taught them that they were prone, no doubt, to sin. However, he said that they were beyond the reach of danger because they belonged to the perfect Power." AD 225

I think the last quote by Hippolytus is the most interesting in regard to 'blessed assurance.'

Posted: 9/17/2013 8:51:44 PM EDT

[#34]

TWire; I for one, appreciate your threads, I've even learned some stuff or it raised a question that required further research.

Posted: 9/18/2013 2:08:40 AM EDT

[#35]

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TWire; I for one, appreciate your threads, I've even learned some stuff or it raised a question that required further research.

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thanks

Posted: 9/18/2013 2:20:31 AM EDT

[#36]

Origen

"Certain ones of those [Gnostic's] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost." AD 225

Insight into the ancient origins of Calvinism?

Commodianus

"Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ." AD 240

Posted: 9/18/2013 2:25:08 AM EDT

[#37]

Cyprian

"Faith itself and the saving birth do not make alive by merely being received. Rather, they must be preserved... The Lord taught this in His instruction when He said..."Sin no more, lest a worst thing come upon you".... Solomon, Saul, and many others were able to keep the grace given to them so long as they walked in the Lord's ways. However, when the disciple of the Lord was forsaken by them, grace also forsook them." AD 250

"Whoever that confessor is, he is not greater, better, or dearer to God than Solomon. Solomon retained the grace that he had received from the Lord, as long as he walked in God's ways. However, after he forsook the Lord's way, he also lost the Lord's grace. For that reason it is written, 'Hold fast that which you have, lest another take your crown.'... 'He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.'" Cyprian, AD 250

Posted: 9/18/2013 2:27:09 AM EDT

[#38]

Accidently, left this one out of the earlier post.

Tertullian

"We ought indeed to walk so holily, and with so entire substantially of faith, as to be confident and secure in regard of our own conscience, desring that it may abdie in us to the end. Yet, we should not presume [that it will]. For he who presumes, feels less apprehension. He who feels less apprehension, takes less precaution. He who takes less precaution, runs more risk. Fear is the foundation of salvation. Presumption is the impediment to fear... More useful, then, is it to apprehend that we may possibly fail, than to presume that we cannot. For apprehending will lead us to fear, fear to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us." AD 198

Posted: 9/18/2013 6:53:58 AM EDT

[#39]

This is an actual question for both sides of the debate here;
How do you think the Penitent Thief in Luke 23:39-43 fits into the idea?

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

View Quote

I understand that there is just a lot that matters that we don't know about this thief, but since the bible does not contradict itself, what can we ascertain about how the thief gained salvation? Was it through his faith alone? Or had he previously known of Jesus and been baptized? Also in question since it was before the death and resurrection, would the old law apply or would the new covenant?

Posted: 9/18/2013 9:11:49 AM EDT

[#40]

My take. He repented, he claimed Jesus as his Lord and savior. He was saved. New covenant.

And what was the thief's name?

Posted: 9/18/2013 9:54:31 AM EDT

[#41]

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My take. He repented, he claimed Jesus as his Lord and savior. He was saved. New covenant.

And what was the thief's name?

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St. Dismas

Posted: 9/18/2013 10:13:38 AM EDT

[#42]

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Quoted:

St. Dismas

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Quoted:

Quoted:
My take. He repented, he claimed Jesus as his Lord and savior. He was saved. New covenant.

And what was the thief's name?

St. Dismas

I know where that info is from. Do you? Just curious.

And do most churches accept this as his name?

Posted: 9/18/2013 10:41:59 AM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:

I know where that info is from. Do you? Just curious.

And do most churches accept this as his name?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
My take. He repented, he claimed Jesus as his Lord and savior. He was saved. New covenant.

And what was the thief's name?

St. Dismas

I know where that info is from. Do you? Just curious.

And do most churches accept this as his name?

I was told it was from the Gospel of Nichodemos. Other churches have different names for him, of which I can only remember one name, Titus.
I don't believe he was ever officially canonized by the Catholic Church.

Posted: 9/18/2013 10:54:40 AM EDT

[#44]

Correct!! He is also mentioned in an Arabic Infancy gospel, but the name is different.

Posted: 9/18/2013 12:50:27 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

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TWire; I for one, appreciate your threads, I've even learned some stuff or it raised a question that required further research.

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this definitely

Posted: 9/19/2013 10:40:50 AM EDT

[#46]

I think that's about it for my routine posts in this thread.

What I have attempted to post is biblical basis for a belief that an individual can be saved, receive salvation, and then lose that gift by a negligent or willful rejection of God's gift. I also posted at the end several quotations from Church fathers in order to demonstrate what the historical early Church believed in regard to this issue. As Catholics, we also hold to that original belief as well.

Even if you disagree with the premise, the title, the posts, the responses and the quotes, I at least hope that the perspective that was presented provided some insight.

God bless all.

Posted: 9/26/2013 5:11:59 AM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
I think that's about it for my routine posts in this thread.

What I have attempted to post is biblical basis for a belief that an individual can be saved, receive salvation, and then lose that gift by a negligent or willful rejection of God's gift. I also posted at the end several quotations from Church fathers in order to demonstrate what the historical early Church believed in regard to this issue. As Catholics, we also hold to that original belief as well.

Even if you disagree with the premise, the title, the posts, the responses and the quotes, I at least hope that the perspective that was presented provided some insight.

God bless all.

View Quote

Why do you limit God? Salvation is His Psalms 21 & 3. If I call on His name and believe in Him: I shall be saved. The Lord only needs to save me once, if I have to do something to save myself that means Jesus Christ died for nothing; I can save myself afterall.

Are you that clouded in your thought.I dumped religion, you should try it.

Posted: 9/26/2013 8:58:34 AM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:

Why do you limit God? Salvation is His Psalms 21 & 3. If I call on His name and believe in Him: I shall be saved. The Lord only needs to save me once, if I have to do something to save myself that means Jesus Christ died for nothing; I can save myself afterall.

Are you that clouded in your thought.I dumped religion, you should try it.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think that's about it for my routine posts in this thread.

What I have attempted to post is biblical basis for a belief that an individual can be saved, receive salvation, and then lose that gift by a negligent or willful rejection of God's gift. I also posted at the end several quotations from Church fathers in order to demonstrate what the historical early Church believed in regard to this issue. As Catholics, we also hold to that original belief as well.

Even if you disagree with the premise, the title, the posts, the responses and the quotes, I at least hope that the perspective that was presented provided some insight.

God bless all.

Why do you limit God? Salvation is His Psalms 21 & 3. If I call on His name and believe in Him: I shall be saved. The Lord only needs to save me once, if I have to do something to save myself that means Jesus Christ died for nothing; I can save myself afterall.

Are you that clouded in your thought.I dumped religion, you should try it.

How insulting. Your commentary is indicative of either a failure to read or a failure to comprehend. I've put no limits on God. I'm so clouded that I posted 4 pages of biblical evidence. If you don't possess the reading skill, interpretive capacity or general decorum for such a discussion, then don't participate.

There is nothing in the Word of God that explicitly or implicitly tells you that you are 'once saved, always saved.' You must have gotten that from your 'religion.'

Enjoy your papacy, Pope Gatito.

Posted: 9/27/2013 4:37:20 AM EDT

[#49]

LOL, Protestant Fundamentalist plays the 'relationship v. religion' card, how droll.

Posted: 9/27/2013 6:10:39 AM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:

Why do you limit God? Salvation is His Psalms 21 & 3. If I call on His name and believe in Him: I shall be saved. The Lord only needs to save me once, if I have to do something to save myself that means Jesus Christ died for nothing; I can save myself afterall.

Are you that clouded in your thought.I dumped religion, you should try it.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think that's about it for my routine posts in this thread.

What I have attempted to post is biblical basis for a belief that an individual can be saved, receive salvation, and then lose that gift by a negligent or willful rejection of God's gift. I also posted at the end several quotations from Church fathers in order to demonstrate what the historical early Church believed in regard to this issue. As Catholics, we also hold to that original belief as well.

Even if you disagree with the premise, the title, the posts, the responses and the quotes, I at least hope that the perspective that was presented provided some insight.

God bless all.

Why do you limit God? Salvation is His Psalms 21 & 3. If I call on His name and believe in Him: I shall be saved. The Lord only needs to save me once, if I have to do something to save myself that means Jesus Christ died for nothing; I can save myself afterall.

Are you that clouded in your thought.I dumped religion, you should try it.

Can you backside?

Colossians 1:15-23
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whetherthrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peaceby the blood of his cross.21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

1 Peter 1:14-16

(ESV)14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Salvation is a process (Page 2 of 3)

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