i agree with you for once. we can't forget whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved. the idea you can lose salvation is based on works when salvation is free, paid for by Jesus.

Clearly a TLDNR post.

If a person loses his justified status with God, does he also lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Don't lose it til you die, are leave early body... Once you have it...

This is a good one to study on...

Without wading into this honeypot too deeply....

This thread suffers from trying to make complex distinctions using non technical language, language used by everyone in different ways.

In a broad sense, salvation is a process. incorporating (depending on how deeply you want to look), creation, fall, crucifixion, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

The aspect of salvation you're thinking of is most accurately referred to as justification.  The moment in which Christ takes the guilt of our sin and we are given the righteousness of Christ.

At that point we become, to quote an Augustinian monk, Simul justus et peccator - simultaneously justified and still sinners.

But, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, if you commit a mortal sin, you lose your justification. So a little bit of sin is allowable, but not too much.

Its not about 'a little bit' vs. 'a lot.' If you read the passages below and understand what 'mortal sin' really is, then you cannot deny that at least the possibility of losing your salvation exists. When you willfully and freely choose to reject God, you will not be 'saved.'



1859    Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. (1734)

1860    Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. (1735, 1767)

1861    Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. (1742, 1033)

I never did understand why Catholic feel the need to classify sins. God never states that some sins are worse than others. We just need to take the attitude that we have fallen short and need forgiveness. Now, whatever sin it is that you've committed, ask forgiveness and repent. Sin is sin period. For the wages of sin is death. Why complicate things?

Its not complex. As believers we should be 'changed beings.' But we are also fallen humans. Some times we simply lapse, sometimes we blatantly disregard the will of God. I think there is a distinct difference between situations.

'I know its wrong but I'm going to sleep with my secretary.'

or

' I really was not as charitable in my response to that person as I should have been.'

There is a difference in both the gravity, volition and the decision making process.

I'll try again:

I'm not trying to be mean here at all, but God doesn't care what your opinion is on sin. The salvation for the murderer and the adulteress is the same salvation for the liar and gossiper. We need to quit saying that Joe Bob's sin is worse than mine, cause at the end of the day if both are saved then all their sins have been wiped clean

I guess we can agree to disagree

If you are truly saved, the Lord never leaves you....Satan may wreak havoc on your life, but the Lord is still there.
That's what I believe.

The operative variable is your use of the word 'truly.'

We aren't talking about God leaving us, we are talking about us leaving God.

2 Peter 1:10-11



Be solicitous to make your call and election permanent, brothers; surely those who do so will never be lost. On the contrary, your entry into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for.