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Posted: 11/17/2003 7:29:03 PM EDT
Yeah I know. This subject has been beaten to death here. I only bring this up because the History Channel special made an extremely compelling case that Lyndon Johnson had JFK killed. Aside from one woman whose credibility was doubtful, they put forth all the witnesses and data to make a very good case. Their proposal was that Robert Kennedy was investigating Johnson and his associates. They made the case that Johnson would not only be removed from office, but also imprisoned. Johnson made deals with the CIA and J. Edgar Hoover to expand their power and authority once he was president. That kept them out of the mix and gave him a free hand. You'd have to see the segment to get the full gist of what the investigators were trying to explain. Lacking any other proof, I'm pretty much convinced. They did a very good job.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 7:39:32 PM EDT
Someone should have shot Johnson, alot less peolpe would have died in Nam.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 9:12:58 PM EDT
Johnson was the worst pres this nation ever had. Guy almost had to be working for the Soviets but assasinating the president? I think that is some reach and I don't believe he could've survived it. To many people would have had to have known.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 9:33:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 9:36:20 PM EDT
I'm watching right now too! I will live long enough to learn what really happened. I will be old when it all comes out but I will learn.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 9:37:24 PM EDT
I find it interesting that only HBO and the History Channel ever had the balls to air that program, which, IIRC, is British made.


Its a dam fine show.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 9:41:51 PM EDT
Does anything think we'll ever know what really happened? I read in Time one time about all these black ops projects they declassified, from like the 1930's, so by that they may release info on JFK when I'm like 70.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 9:54:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I find it interesting that only HBO and the History Channel ever had the balls to air that program, which, IIRC, is British made.


Its a dam fine show.




Yeah, at the very least it really made you think. I also agree that LBJ was a horrible president, and I place the deaths of a lot of good men at his and his advisors feet.

On the show and the other related shows (was the "men who killed Kennedy" the one where they go real indepth on autoposy photos and the car windshield?):
well, I'm not real big on conspiracy theories, or tin foil hats, but I know enough about firearms to know a shot to the front when I see one, and that looks like a shot to JFK's front to me.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 3:18:34 AM EDT
I saw the show last year where they put forth possible links to the mob and other people wanting Kennedy out of the way. This show was different however as they only touched briefly on the autopsy photos, the doctor's examinations and such. The main part of the show laid out links from Johnson to Billy Sol Estes and Bobby Baker. It also had interviews with Johnson's mistress and one of his lawyers. It alleged that Johnson was elected to the Senate in 1948 by stuffing the ballot box. His ties to big oil and a large group of corrupt politicians were also examined in detail. I gathered that the CIA and the FBI were not involved directly. They'd been reigned in by the Kennedy's and basically just stood clear of Johnson's activities because they stood to gain with Johnson in the Whitehouse. I wonder if Johnson's widow will tell all before she dies. Johnson had it done to keep himself out of jail and in the presidency. Once in, he controlled directly or indirectly every pahase of the investigation. I just wish I'd live long enouch to see the government archives opened up and the truth come out.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:51:26 AM EDT
I have the DVD of all the episodes of TMWKK - it's very good.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 8:08:56 AM EDT
What bullet hole in the windshield....
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 8:16:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:

well, I'm not real big on conspiracy theories, or tin foil hats, but I know enough about firearms to know a shot to the front when I see one, and that looks like a shot to JFK's front to me.



No flame but if that is what you think a shot to the front looks like you don't really know what you are talking about. Exit wound is always larger and the front of his head blew out big time. His head then went back due to the force of the skull and brain fragments flying forward. Simple physics.
There are plenty who say that shot couldn't have been made by Oswald from the depository window. Hell, I could've made that shot. It was a perfect set up. At the point the shot was made the limo was driving straight away from the window and the distance was not extreme at all. Now you could argue that Oswald didn't do it but JFK was shot from that window.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 8:46:43 AM EDT
The front of his head was not blown out, it was the back.

they showed 2 entrance wounds, one near his temple and one in his throat below his adams apple.

Very compelling information.

osprey21 - Exactly my question.. why does no one know about it? I saw it, it was there, there was evidence that the limo was taken to Chicago to replace the window.

Conspiracy? I think so.

Link Posted: 11/18/2003 9:06:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gilfrd:
The front of his head was not blown out, it was the back.



Wrong, wrong, wrong. Go back and look at the film. That is bullshit.


Conspiracy? I think so.


Maybe, but your thinking so doesn't make it so. Where is the proof? I grew up in the 60's and for a time everyone thought that but I'll tell ya the more I looked into all of these conspiracy theories the less they held water. At the end the only thing left was Oswald from the depository with the Mannlicher carbine. When you have eliminated all other possibilities, whatever remains, however improbable is the truth...That is a loose quote from Sherlock Holmes, I believe.

Link Posted: 11/18/2003 9:09:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 9:11:47 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By gilfrd:

Conspiracy? I think so.




After Kennedy was shot, IMHO the Kennedy family orchestrated everything from that moment on. Their goal was to make certain no one could find the truth. They, the Kennedy family, knew who ordered the hit and why. I doubt they much cared who the shooters were.

Tell me, anyone EVER recall any member of the family asking that the case be reopened ?? Rich, powerful family but no call for a thorough investigation. They knew both who and why.

5sub
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 9:15:18 AM EDT
i am no expert but if he was shot from behind the huge exit wound would have been in his face.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 9:45:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mak762:
i am no expert but if he was shot from behind the huge exit wound would have been in his face.



right frontal/temporal. That would be correct.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:22:48 AM EDT
Nothing new to me. Gerald Posner wrote an excellent book in the early 1990s that had to same Johnson consiracy premise. From watching the show on the History Channel, it seems that a lot more new evidence has emerged to corroborate Posners book.


Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:25:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Johnson was the worst pres this nation ever had. Guy almost had to be working for the Soviets but assasinating the president? I think that is some reach and I don't believe he could've survived it. To many people would have had to have known.



My vote still goes to Franklin "Have I got a New Deal for you" Roosevelt as worst!
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:46:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:57:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:


The debunking of the conspiracy buffs' 'facts' in the Kennedy Assassination is well worth the read!

Eric The(Sensible,AsAlways)Hun




I know of only one person who had both the motive and the means to have Kennedy killed and the only person who said "....yeah, we had him killed." (And that person sure as heck was not Oswald.)

5sub
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:57:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:09:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:17:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:


I know of only one person who had both the motive and the means to have Kennedy killed and the only person who said "....yeah, we had him killed." (And that person sure as heck was not Oswald.)

5sub



And who was that?
I have never heard that quote before. Not in 40 years of conspiracy theories...
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:36:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:38:05 AM EDT
The Kennedy's were no angels, Joe Kennedy was the biggest crook along with his boy Onasis. Funny how Onasis ended up marrying her.

Interesting times, the 1960's... those key figures in regards to Civil Rights were all gunned down by lone gunmen. Hmmmm....

I bet the majority here believe that Vince Foster committed suicide too!

Sure.

When things are packaged too neatly for us, I begin to worry.



Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:44:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StariVojnik:

I bet the majority here believe that Vince Foster committed suicide too!




Nope. For a number of reasons, but the clincher for me was the CORONER saying that there was virtually no blood under the body because head wounds don't bleed much! You have got to be shitting me. You ain't seen blood until you've seen a head wound. But I guess most people don't know that and the Klintons and their minions lied throughout the entire 8 years. People believe what they want most to hear and the Klintons understood human nature all to well.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:44:49 AM EDT
Johnson's involvement in criminal activities would be more than enough motive to assassinate the president. It would also explain Robert Kennedy's assassination in 1968. However, we will probably never know the truth. Here are links to two of the sites used in the History Channel's investigation. I didn't hotlink them. The bullet hole in the windshield was more of a mark made on the frame, not broken glass.

http://impiousdigest.com/lbj/part1aa.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/estes.htm

Okay, I quit now.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:51:45 AM EDT
Well thats re-assuring.

Also, I don't know if your knew this bit of info, the handgun that supposedly Vince used to kill himself, was made from 3 different guns. Why would Vince (whos a rich man) have a saturday night BS handgun made from parts from 3 other guns? And yes you are right, a head wound bleeds profusely!!! I seen an old woman hit by a truck, her head cracked open on the pavement, lots of thick blood, shades of red that I will never forget.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 12:04:01 PM EDT
oswald could not have made the shot. ive been to the depository and i own a well preserved carcano. even my pristine example is still a rickety piece of shit and im a USMC high expert and 10year match shooter in F class and high power. oswald barely qualified. i know i couldnt make those shots that quickly and i doubt oswald could either.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 12:39:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 3:42:12 PM EDT
Oswald did not act alone.

J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ orchestrated the cover-up for various reasons.

Link Posted: 11/18/2003 4:49:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By Spade:

well, I'm not real big on conspiracy theories, or tin foil hats, but I know enough about firearms to know a shot to the front when I see one, and that looks like a shot to JFK's front to me.



No flame but if that is what you think a shot to the front looks like you don't really know what you are talking about. Exit wound is always larger and the front of his head blew out big time. His head then went back due to the force of the skull and brain fragments flying forward. Simple physics.
There are plenty who say that shot couldn't have been made by Oswald from the depository window. Hell, I could've made that shot. It was a perfect set up. At the point the shot was made the limo was driving straight away from the window and the distance was not extreme at all. Now you could argue that Oswald didn't do it but JFK was shot from that window.


Not all the time.
Here is a "real" head that has been shot: note the enterance wound.


here is the path of the bullet , with the bullet circled.


We will never know the true story. But I sure do not belive the governments version, because they kept a lot of things secret.



Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:02:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By Spade:

well, I'm not real big on conspiracy theories, or tin foil hats, but I know enough about firearms to know a shot to the front when I see one, and that looks like a shot to JFK's front to me.



No flame but if that is what you think a shot to the front looks like you don't really know what you are talking about. Exit wound is always larger and the front of his head blew out big time. His head then went back due to the force of the skull and brain fragments flying forward. Simple physics.
There are plenty who say that shot couldn't have been made by Oswald from the depository window. Hell, I could've made that shot. It was a perfect set up. At the point the shot was made the limo was driving straight away from the window and the distance was not extreme at all. Now you could argue that Oswald didn't do it but JFK was shot from that window.


Not all the time.
Here is a "real" head that has been shot: note the enterance wound.
img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-3/141064/01e.jpg

here is the path of the bullet , with the bullet circled.
img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-3/141064/01dg.JPG

We will never know the true story. But I sure do not belive the governments version, because they kept a lot of things secret.






Now, that is comparing apples and oranges to say the least. There is no exit wound here clearly and comparing a small caliber pistol round to that of a high powered rifle is not terribly convincing. JFK was hit in the back of the head with a SUBSTANTIAL exit wound out the front. His head went back due to the recoil of debris flyingout of the exit wound. There is ample evidence to support this. There is none to support a front quarter shot, only conjecture.

I would urge any of you who dispute this to watch the Zapruder film in slo-mo. There is no doubt that the head shot came from the rear. At least not for me.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:10:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Johnson was the worst pres this nation ever had. Guy almost had to be working for the Soviets but assasinating the president? I think that is some reach and I don't believe he could've survived it. To many people would have had to have known.



I don't know about that. I have felt for over 30 years that LBJ or Jackie, or both, were involved in JFK's death.

Many did not like JFK, but he certainly was no anti-gun puke.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:33:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Johnson was the worst pres this nation ever had. Guy almost had to be working for the Soviets but assasinating the president? I think that is some reach and I don't believe he could've survived it. To many people would have had to have known.



I don't know about that. I have felt for over 30 years that LBJ or Jackie, or both, were involved in JFK's death.

Many did not like JFK, but he certainly was no anti-gun puke.



A guy I knew in the Marines claimed to have a contact in the CIA and told me that LBJ and Jackie were the masterminds. This was in 1976. I don't buy it obviously, but it is a possibility.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:45:29 PM EDT
A search on Google turned up a site called "Celebrity Morgue."

Very gruesome pics, but they clearly show JFK's brains were blown out of the back of his skull. If he was hit from behind I don't think his face would look as good as it does in the photos.

http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/jfk-autopsy.html
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:12:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
A search on Google turned up a site called "Celebrity Morgue."

Very gruesome pics, but they clearly show JFK's brains were blown out of the back of his skull. If he was hit from behind I don't think his face would look as good as it does in the photos.

www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/jfk-autopsy.html



hotlinked!
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:22:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
A search on Google turned up a site called "Celebrity Morgue."

Very gruesome pics, but they clearly show JFK's brains were blown out of the back of his skull. If he was hit from behind I don't think his face would look as good as it does in the photos.

www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/jfk-autopsy.html



hotlinked!



edited to add: I still disagree with the idea of an exit wound thru the back of the head. What you see is flaps of skull and scalp flapped back from the exit wound.
Seeing this would lead me to want to see the Zapruder tape again and see how far forward his head is leaning at the time of impact. NOTHING about these leads me to believe that the shot came from in front. I had thought though that the exit was more frontal/temporal than it is. As for the neck or back wound you really cannot tell much from those pics.
Watch the Zapruder tape.

These pics were tough to look at. I've seen quite alot, but I remember as a young boy looking up to JFK. While he sure had his detractors, he was well loved by most.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:13:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 9:19:54 AM EDT by LARRYG]
For those of you who still think Oswald acted alone (I can't believe anyone is that stupid), I suggest you watch the film they showed in that special. It is very clear that the last shot came from the right front. Both the impact of the round and his body's lunge backwards leaves no doubt except for those who, for some unknown reason, can't admit that Oswald did not act alone.

Somebody said that a hit from the rear would make the body lunge to the rear. HUH?????? Perhaps a little physics lesson is in order. The Zapruder film in slow motion shows the right front shot clearly, contrary to what one self-procliamed expert on this thread says.

I suppose that the woman, and others, who says that she clearly saw a shot come from the picket fence area is lying? Some of you who weren't even there are so sure of yourself that you know better than those that were there. Oh well.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:27:42 AM EDT
Those who argue that a shot from the rear of his head made him propel backwards because of the "explosive" force forward will use "theoretical physics" to show that. However, theoretical physics can "prove" that just about anything can be possible.

Looking beyond just the shot, there is SO much evidence that Oswald did NOT shoot Kennedy that's I agree that it's ridiculous that anyone would even believe that he did it, much less all by himself.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:28:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
For those of you who still think Oswald acted alone (I can't believe anyone is that stupid), I suggest you watch the film they showed in that special. It is very clear that the last shot came from the right front. Both the impact of the round and his body's lunge backwards leaves no doubt except for those who, for some unknown reason, can't admit that Oswald did not act alone.



I will admit to whatever I see as the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. I disagree that the fatal shot came from the front and the pics linked here show and exit, not an entrance woud, in the right upper skull.


Somebody said that a hit from the rear would make the body lunge to the rear. HUH?????? Perhaps a little physics lesson is in order. The Zapruder film in slow motion shows the right front shot clearly, contrary to what one self-procliamed expert on this thread says.


I don't doubt that there are a few here who could teach me a few things about physics. But not very many, I am sure.
I have seen the Zapruder film in slow mo and I disagree with your assessment. FWIW, I never said that his body lunged to the rear. His head did make a slight move forward and then back. Consider, again, that the head is attached to a much higher mass body and that JFK was wearing an elaborate back brace.


I suppose that the woman, and others, who says that she clearly saw a shot come from the picket fence area is lying?


Mistaken perhaps. Seems some of these people later assess what they saw in more definite terms than at the time. Eye witness testimony in inherently inaccurate often times.

No need to be offensive Larry. Perhaps you should reserve that for something worthwhile.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:37:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:54:11 AM EDT
What I like to know is what was Jackie looking for in the back of the car after JFK was shot. I think after the second shot she crawled on the rear deck of the limo.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:58:21 AM EDT
I think the most irrefutable and compelling evidence is that ALL the doctors at Parkland Memorial Hospital where Kennedy was taken immediately after the shooting - they ALL noted the neck wound as an enterance wound. If it were an exit wound, wouldn't it stand to reason that it would have been rather obvious? What did "they" do to conceal the evidence of this enterance wound? A tracheaotomy(sp?). Way to go guys. Do a tracheotomy(sp?) on a dead person with a fatal head wound and 1/4 his brain missing. Brilliant. I know it's probably "routine" to do, but by doing it, evidence was destroyed. Very convenient. Thus no one could inspect it, as no pictures were taken of the throat wound before the tracheatomy (sp?) was done. All the Warren Commission had to do was state that all the doctors at Parkland were simply mistaken. Heh.

I don't doubt that Oswald was certainly involved in some way, and possibly even fired at the President that day, but there was definitely at least one other person firing at the President that day, and thus, a conspiracy.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:59:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Me! Me! LARRYG, I am so stupid that I believe that Margarite Oswald's boy was acting alone on that Day in November!



What the Zapruder film clearly shows to me and a few others, is that at the moment that the 'head shot' hit Kennedy there was a distinct forward movement of the head, and then a sudden 'snap-back' as if the body were reacting to some outside stimulus, say, like the impact of a high powered rifle round to the old brain!

If there is ANYTHING that we can say with predictability about the actions of bullets and the reactions of the human body when struck by bullets, it is that there is NOTHING that we can say about the predictability of the actions of bullets, or the reactions of the human body to being struck by bullets!

But, truly, if this well documented, filmed, and sound recorded, murder has not been finally and completely solved over the last 40 years, with witnesses' memories clear and crisp, and alive, then, I regret to say, it will never be solved in some people's minds!

Luckily for the conspiracy theorists, Kennedy was not struck down by lightning on a golf course in Maryland, where there could be no doubt!

Although, knowing how this assassination conspiracy has become a 'cottage industry' for a whole lot of folks, I am certain that even then there would be theories on the motives of who scheduled Kennedy to play golf that stormy day, and who provided him with an aluminum umbrella that was bound to attract lightning!

Such is the way of the world, I suppose.

Eric The(FeetPlantedFirmlyOnTheGround,HeadInAss)Hu­n



Eric, ya know I love ya in a brotherly sort of way, but there is just too much evidence that indicates Oswald did not act alone.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:13:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 10:28:11 AM EDT by A-nus]
Oswald did not act alone

I used big letters so it has to be true.

He had nothing to do with it IMO.

My favorite peice of evidence is the pristien bullet laying on the stretcher,next to Kennedy HAHAHAHAHAH aaaaaww man that is a good one.


after doing all of this:(which is impossable)




The bullet looked like this:(the one on the left)


Come on?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:26:04 AM EDT
More physical evidence? Well the bullet fragments removed from Governor Connoly add up to more than was missing off of the "pristine" bullet (which, was by no means "pristine"). It's just another fact that is ignored by the Warren Commission.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:26:23 AM EDT
drjar - I find it hard to believe you said:
"... I remember as a young boy looking up to JFK. While he sure had his detractors, he was well loved by most."
Perhaps you have bought in to the historical revisionists, who began working to canonize JFK as soon as he was in the ground. If you refer to actual polls taken while he was alive, I think it can be demonstrated that JFK was the LEAST POPULAR president ever (but of course, effective polls weren't conducted prior to 1920).
And why might the public have held JFK in low regard? Well, the Bay of Pigs massacre didn't exactly inspire love and confidence. The fact that he was a Yankee Catholic pushing for civil rights alienated much of the South. The fact that his dad bought the election with the assistance of organized crime and the traditional Democratic political machines was clearly known to many, and not necessarily admired.

It is certainly tragic that our President was murdered. But let's not kid ourselves regarding the public perception of him while he was alive.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:28:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Javak:
What I like to know is what was Jackie looking for in the back of the car after JFK was shot. I think after the second shot she crawled on the rear deck of the limo.



She picked up a piece of his skull. Don't f'ing ask me why!
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:28:47 AM EDT
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