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Posted: 8/12/2005 4:33:22 AM EDT
Gas went up again last night. What is the driving force behind this other than greed??? I'm ready to go out and buy a pussy electric car.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:33:57 AM EDT
$66.00 barrel oil opening today
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:34:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 4:34:53 AM EDT by pyro6988]
Trouble in the middle east.

Iran starting nuclear program and terriost threats in Saudi Arabia.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:34:59 AM EDT
everyone wants to drive a gas guzzling SUV
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:36:50 AM EDT
Your kidding right?

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=367139
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=370433
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=371351

It is pretty simple, high global demand, limited refining ability, high demand and environmental regulations.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:38:08 AM EDT
Unless the supply is actually being halted or destroyed it doesn't make sense. Someone can fart the wrong way right now and oil would skyrocket. I'm getting pissed about this. I head that the past two quarters the oil companies made 18 billion in profit. I have no way to confirm this, however I can believe it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:38:28 AM EDT
Refinery capacity and demand in the US has quite a lot to do with our pump prices.

The bigger force driving oil futures is the development of China. Right now, only like 12% of Chinese has autos. Where do you think the limited global crude oil supply is going to go when 75% of the 1 billion Chinese are driving cars?

Why do you think CNOOC was trying to buy Chevron?

[BTO]You ain't seen nothing yet...[/BTO]
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:39:35 AM EDT


JHC, what don't you people understand about SUPPLY AND FRICKEN' DEMAND.

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:40:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
Unless the supply is actually being halted or destroyed it doesn't make sense. Someone can fart the wrong way right now and oil would skyrocket. I'm getting pissed about this. I head that the past two quarters the oil companies made 18 billion in profit. I have no way to confirm this, however I can believe it.

So you think the oil companies shouldn't be making a profit? If this is the case what do think should be done to fix it? SHould the government step in and start price controls?????
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:41:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=28799

JHC, what don't you people understand about SUPPLY AND FRICKEN' DEMAND.


No kidding.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:41:50 AM EDT
Fact - adjusted for inflation, the price of gas is STILL lower than it was in the mid-80s.

Prices go up, its called inflation. This belief in the "right" of Americans to have cheap gas has to stop.

Don't like it? Buy a hybrid, don't drive as much, or adjust your budget to take the cost into account.

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:43:03 AM EDT
10 years from now we will be wishing gas was still $3 a gallon. Enjoy it while it is still "cheap" !!!
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:43:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=28799

JHC, what don't you people understand about SUPPLY AND FRICKEN' DEMAND.




I fully understand supply and demand. I just didn't know what was driving the demand. I had no idea that China was buying up all the oil.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:46:49 AM EDT
It's because of all those damn Australia poisonous cane toads
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:47:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Your kidding right?

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=367139
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=370433
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=371351

It is pretty simple, high global demand, limited refining ability, high demand and environmental regulations.



Actually folks, it's even easier than that.

The real honest to God, bare bones answer is.....

Wait for it.......

<­BR>


People are still willing to pay it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:47:47 AM EDT
Greedy Oil Companies


Haliburton


Ge­orge Bush


Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:48:01 AM EDT
Hey if you like paying a shit load of money for gas then enjoy, I don't. It's killing our economy and hurting our industries. I guess I should be glad the big oil companies are making a 18 billion dollar profit??? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Um, I should be happy that I'm paying out the ass for gas and that oil companies that I have nothing to do with are making a killing. I'm not saying there's anything I can do or the government should do. I'm just not happy about it. And there's no way in hell you can convince me that this is good, ok, or that you're not pissed about it too. Hell, it's cutting into everyone's gun spending money.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:48:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
Unless the supply is actually being halted or destroyed it doesn't make sense. Someone can fart the wrong way right now and oil would skyrocket. I'm getting pissed about this. I head that the past two quarters the oil companies made 18 billion in profit. I have no way to confirm this, however I can believe it.

So you think the oil companies shouldn't be making a profit? If this is the case what do think should be done to fix it? SHould the government step in and start price controls?????



There is nothing wrong with oil companies making a profit. Like pharmaceutical companies, they use much of that profit for R & D to allegedly make cleaner and more efficient fuels. (While it is getting cleaner, I haven't seen the cheaper part yet). What ires me is that this morning show record profits for oil companies last quarter (minimum profit was up 35% over previous qtr). The president just signed an Energy Bill which gives them a permanent $6 billion dollar tax break. Why doesn't he give US the taxpayers a tax break by eliminating or reducing the Federal Gas Taxes. That would cut the price per gallon in FL alone 37 cents!!! I filled up this morning and it would have saved me $5.55. Not a great deal, but considering I fill up twice per week, that is $44.40 per month.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:52:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
Hey if you like paying a shit load of money for gas then enjoy, I don't. It's killing our economy and hurting our industries. I guess I should be glad the big oil companies are making a 18 billion dollar profit??? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Um, I should be happy that I'm paying out the ass for gas and that oil companies that I have nothing to do with are making a killing. I'm not saying there's anything I can do or the government should do. I'm just not happy about it. And there's no way in hell you can convince me that this is good, ok, or that you're not pissed about it too. Hell, it's cutting into everyone's gun spending money.

I am not pissed at all, infact I am making so much more money now that it isn't really a concern. Gas gets to $3.50 or more I will cut back on driving. It is a cycle and an indication of a strong economy. GDP has grown for 2 years now, so how is the high fuel prices killing the economy.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:54:12 AM EDT
Supply and Demand.

As China and India become more industrial they use more oil. Countries that are producing oil don't increase the supply to make-up for the new higher demand. Prices go up.

Instability in the oil producing areas as drives the price up.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:54:27 AM EDT
Also, Oil refineries stateside have to take huge sudsidies from the Gov to keep their plants open. The EPA put such strict regulations on the refineries(these regulations were passed into law) without considering how those regulations would affect gas prices. Gas should actually be closer to$7.50 per gallon. About 10 years ago when these new, more strict regulations were put into action, refineries informed the Dept of Energy that gas could be driven up to $5 per gallon in a matter of days. Thinking back to 10 years ago, gas in my town was hovering around $0.88-$0.99, then suddenly it went over a dollar and everyone freaked out(not realizing how much it should actually cost). As the oil prices go up, and the cost to refineries goes up based on EPA regulations, so will the price of gas. If the Gov one day soon can't afford to keep subsidising refineries then they will astart to close, if that happens, production will slow while demand stays the same and the price will go even higher. I predict that gas will be around $5 per gallon by next summer, just based on its current climbing rate. Four Cylinder Engines for Everyone!!!!! Weeeeee!!!!1!11111!!

we could all buy hybrids and carpool like imigrants.....
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:58:11 AM EDT
From today's WSJ -


In Jittery Oil Markets, Outages At Refineries Pack Bigger Punch

By THADDEUS HERRICK and PETER A. MCKAY
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
August 12, 2005; Page A3

Refinery outages are increasingly playing a role in the surging price for oil, as snags at the facilities that turn oil into everything from gasoline to jet fuel inspire a rush to buy crude on commodities markets.

That result might seem counterintuitive -- after all, the less oil a refinery can process, the more likely a barrel of oil will go unused and remain on the market. But some analysts say that in today's jittery oil markets, with little wiggle room between world-wide supply and demand for crude, refinery outages tend to set off a chain reaction.

Two recent refinery snags -- the shutdown of a high-pressure unit at BP PLC's Texas City refinery near Houston and a power outage at ConocoPhillips's Roxana, Ill., refinery -- led to a surge in the price of gasoline and contributed to another rise in crude prices to a new high yesterday. Crude oil futures for September delivery rose as high as $66 a barrel before settling at $65.80, up 1.4%.

Refineries are running near the limits of their capacity. Any sizable outage almost immediately pushes up prices of refined petroleum products such as gasoline and diesel fuel, both at the refinery front gate and on commodity trading floors. Those higher prices, in turn, give refiners even more incentive to process more oil using what little excess capacity that remains. So refiners bid up the price of light, sweet crude, the easiest grade of oil to refine and the main type for which there is excess refining capacity.

The buying activity in turn leads to more buying by heavy energy users and speculators who rush to secure oil on futures markets, where contracts to buy oil at given prices within specific periods are traded. "It's like an auction for the last barrel of sweet crude," says Larry Goldstein, president of the New York-based Petroleum Industry Research Foundation.

Oil producers also play a role, analysts say. When a refinery experiences an outage, producers know other refineries will pay a higher price for oil, so they tend to charge one. The upshot: record high oil prices, though they still trail the inflation-adjusted highs of above $90 a barrel reached in April 1980.

Though refiners are paying more, the tight markets have helped their bottom lines. According to A.G. Edwards, the U.S. composite refining margin -- the gross difference between what a refiner pays for a barrel of oil and the amount it fetches for refined products -- was up to $11.05 for the week ended Aug. 5 from $5.50 a year earlier. Valero Energy Corp., a big refiner based in San Antonio, reported net income of $1.38 billion for the first half of the year, a 57% increase from the year earlier.

In recent weeks a number of refinery incidents have kept pressure on oil prices. The outages have involved units at more than a dozen refineries that together have the capacity to run 3.2 million barrels a day of oil, or roughly 19% of total U.S. capacity. But the actual amount of refinery capacity taken offline, while hard to gauge, is likely much less.

The outages may be just a run of bad luck. But with refineries running near industry highs, analysts say the glitches also could be the result of a U.S. refining system being pushed too hard. "When you push that hard there appear to be a disproportionate number of surprises," says Mr. Goldstein. Valero says outages are more likely to occur during the summer months when temperatures are high and utilization rates are at their highest.

The most immediate pain will be felt at the pump. On Monday, the Department of Energy said the average price of regular gasoline was $2.37 a gallon, up almost eight cents from the previous week and 49 cents from this time last year.

BP said its Texas City outage would have a minimal impact. But analysts and refiners said in today's environment any development that rattles traders can result in short-term jumps. "There is no reason for crude oil to be at $65 a barrel other than hype in the market," said Mary Rose Brown, a Valero spokeswoman.

But market fundamentals play at least an indirect role. Marshall Adkins, director of energy research at Raymond James & Associates, said the entire global supply chain that produces, transports and refines oil has little slack. "There's really no excess capacity anywhere, in terms of the refineries or tankers or anything else," Mr. Adkins said. "When you have a problem anywhere along that chain, people just automatically start buying, because they're worried."

The Energy Department reported Wednesday that commercial inventories of gasoline fell by 2.1 million barrels last week to 203.1 million barrels. But supplies of oil are up, with a sizable build of 2.8 million barrels.

Longer term, supplies still look tight. Yesterday, the Paris-based International Energy Agency said it expects oil supply from producers outside the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries to average 50.8 million barrels a day this year, or 205,000 barrels a day less than forecast as recently as a month ago. It also trimmed back its production estimate for 2006.

That will put pressure on OPEC to produce more oil to cover the supply gap. OPEC already is pumping nearly flat out to meet world demand, which is expected to rise to 83.7 million barrels a day on average this year.

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:01:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
Hey if you like paying a shit load of money for gas then enjoy, I don't. It's killing our economy and hurting our industries. I guess I should be glad the big oil companies are making a 18 billion dollar profit??? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Um, I should be happy that I'm paying out the ass for gas and that oil companies that I have nothing to do with are making a killing. I'm not saying there's anything I can do or the government should do. I'm just not happy about it. And there's no way in hell you can convince me that this is good, ok, or that you're not pissed about it too. Hell, it's cutting into everyone's gun spending money.

I am not pissed at all, infact I am making so much more money now that it isn't really a concern. Gas gets to $3.50 or more I will cut back on driving. It is a cycle and an indication of a strong economy. GDP has grown for 2 years now, so how is the high fuel prices killing the economy.



Ok, let me narrow down to my scope of the problem. I work for a company that handles most of the worlds transportation business. Pretty much anything that has to do with travel. Airlines, cruises, hotel's, etc. We (like many others) have seen major cutbacks, layoffs, firings or whatever you want to call it. I've seen good friends lose their jobs left and right because the industry that I'm involved, their profits rely on fuel prices. The higher the fuel prices, less to no profit for the airlines. Layoffs have taken place. Whole companies have gone out of business or are in Chapter 11 right now (travel related). I'm not trying to start an argument with you VT. I'm just getting fed up with this situation and thought I'd post on here to get some empathy. Hopefully feel a little better that people are just as pissed as me. I guess the gas prices don't effect some people right now. I'm glad that's the case. I'm stretched a little thin right now with the fear of being let go from my job due to higher fuel costs. So that's why I'm upset.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:02:40 AM EDT
1. Barriers to entry (exuberant costs)
2. Monopolistic
3. Price fixing

THere are three that come to mind.

With that said, I've read that the oil companies operate on a 300% pofit marging. If that is true, I would like to know of another industry that profits the same.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:03:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Buzz70:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
Hey if you like paying a shit load of money for gas then enjoy, I don't. It's killing our economy and hurting our industries. I guess I should be glad the big oil companies are making a 18 billion dollar profit??? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Um, I should be happy that I'm paying out the ass for gas and that oil companies that I have nothing to do with are making a killing. I'm not saying there's anything I can do or the government should do. I'm just not happy about it. And there's no way in hell you can convince me that this is good, ok, or that you're not pissed about it too. Hell, it's cutting into everyone's gun spending money.

I am not pissed at all, infact I am making so much more money now that it isn't really a concern. Gas gets to $3.50 or more I will cut back on driving. It is a cycle and an indication of a strong economy. GDP has grown for 2 years now, so how is the high fuel prices killing the economy.



Ok, let me narrow down to my scope of the problem. I work for a company that handles most of the worlds transportation business. Pretty much anything that has to do with travel. Airlines, cruises, hotel's, etc. We (like many others) have seen major cutbacks, layoffs, firings or whatever you want to call it. I've seen good friends lose their jobs left and right because the industry that I'm involved, their profits rely on fuel prices. The higher the fuel prices, less to no profit for the airlines. Layoffs have taken place. Whole companies have gone out of business or are in Chapter 11 right now (travel related). I'm not trying to start an argument with you VT. I'm just getting fed up with this situation and thought I'd post on here to get some empathy. Hopefully feel a little better that people are just as pissed as me. I guess the gas prices don't effect some people right now. I'm glad that's the case. I'm stretched a little thin right now with the fear of being let go from my job due to higher fuel costs. So that's why I'm upset.

Since you are in Oklahoma, get on board with an energy company. Make more money.Seriously
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:04:42 AM EDT
Those of you saying you're thinking about buying a hybrid, do the math. You'd have to drive close to 350,000 miles (at today's gas prices) in that car to save enough money on gas to pay for the couple of thousand dollar premium over the price of a standard vehicle. Just FYI.

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:08:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:09:03 AM EDT
Don't forget effect the war on drugs on oil prices.

US mulls sanctions against Venezuela

Tuesday 09 August 2005, 6:50 Makka Time, 3:50 GMT


The United States is considering punishing Venezuela with sanctions for breaking off work with US anti-drug agents in the world's top cocaine-exporting region, the State Department has said .

In a new blow to already fraying ties between the US and Venezuela, one of its key oil supplier, President Hugo Chavez said on Sunday that he suspended cooperation with the Drug Enforcement Administration, because it was unnecessary and accused the US agency of spying on his government.

"The fears are baseless," State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said. "I think it's pretty clear to us that the motivation for this is not the accusation itself... The motivation is an effort to detract from the government's increasingly deficient record of cooperation."

Chavez said Venezuela would continue to work with international organisations to combat drug trafficking.

Next month, the State Department must, by law, judge if Venezuela has failed to cooperate in the drug war, a decision that could trigger a range of sanctions, including blocking cheap credit for businesses and counter-narcotics aid.

Fraying relations

Chavez's suspension decision "would obviously have an impact on deliberations concerning our annual decision-making process", Ereli said.

"I think it's pretty clear to us that the motivation for this is not the accusation itself... The motivation is an effort to detract from the government's increasingly deficient record of cooperation"

Adam Ereli,
State Department spokesman
Even before Sunday's decision, the top US diplomat said it would be difficult this year to certify Venezuela as cooperating in the drug war.

Venezuela, which Washington has sanctioned for failing to combat human trafficking, would then be blacklisted along with countries such as Myanmar.

Ereli said Venezuela had already this year severed military-to-military cooperation and failed to respond to US recommendations in March on how the countries could improve their joint fight against drug barons.

Losing out

"Failure to cooperate only benefits narco-traffickers," Ereli said.

Both countries had agreed until recently to work together in the fight, but cooperation has been strained by mistrust, corruption and the chilly relations between Caracas and Washington, foreign security officials say.

Venezuela is an important transport route for cocaine from neighbouring Colombia - the world's No.1 exporter of the drug - to Europe and the US.

Washington, a key client for Venezuelan oil, views Chavez as a threat to stability in the region while the South American nation's leader complains of US interference.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:10:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 5:11:27 AM EDT by VTHOKIESHOOTER]

Originally Posted By shootemup:
1. Barriers to entry (exuberant costs)
2. Monopolistic
3. Price fixing

THere are three that come to mind.

With that said, I've read that the oil companies operate on a 300% pofit marging. If that is true, I would like to know of another industry that profits the same.

Ok this is what will happen. Since gas demand is very elastic, prices will continue to go up, up up because the companies know that they can charge that amount without worrying about slack off of demand. They are using that money to invest in other forms of energy. Soon prices will become too high and someone will figure out a way to reduce the need for gas. SOmeone will find a way for employees to work from home, gas prices will plunge and we will hear more crying from people in the energy sector complaining how bad it is. It is an economic cycle people, get used to it. As much as I love to debate this subject, I must go and make my company money.....
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:13:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:13:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By shootemup:
1. Barriers to entry (exuberant costs)
2. Monopolistic
3. Price fixing

THere are three that come to mind.

With that said, I've read that the oil companies operate on a 300% pofit marging. If that is true, I would like to know of another industry that profits the same.

Ok this is what will happen. Since gas demand is very elastic, prices will continue to go up, up up because the companies know that they can charge that amount without worrying about slack off of demand. They are using that money to invest in other forms of energy. Soon prices will become too high and someone will figure out a way to reduce the need for gas. SOmeone will find a way for employees to work from home, gas prices will plunge and we will hear more crying from people in the energy sector complaining how bad it is. It is an economic cycle people, get used to it. As much as I love to debate this subject, I must go and make my company money.....



When will we hit an equilibrium??

I think when people start reassesing thier dring needs/wants, and the overall consumption begins to lower ( I doubt will ever happen) then the prices will fall.

With that said, we're not the only buyers of oil, and they're few sellers.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:14:02 AM EDT
Why not change your driving habits and/or buy a more fuel-efficient vehicle before you start talking about how the government should get involved and "do something?"

Seems like a good idea to me...
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:14:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
Hey if you like paying a shit load of money for gas then enjoy, I don't. It's killing our economy and hurting our industries. I guess I should be glad the big oil companies are making a 18 billion dollar profit??? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Um, I should be happy that I'm paying out the ass for gas and that oil companies that I have nothing to do with are making a killing. I'm not saying there's anything I can do or the government should do. I'm just not happy about it. And there's no way in hell you can convince me that this is good, ok, or that you're not pissed about it too. Hell, it's cutting into everyone's gun spending money.



Big profits make possible investments in producing future oil. One of our problems right now is that the oil sector has been neglected for the past 20+ years. No investment means no new fields or more efficient means of producing oil.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:16:14 AM EDT
I'm going to wait for the solar powered cars to come into production. However I know that if this ever did come into effect the government would probably start charging us tax for use of the Sun. The future looks bright (LOL).
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:20:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:23:39 AM EDT
First, there is good news here. The markets are actually working. Unlike the 1970s when there were gas lines and shortages (and I even remember weeks when no gas at all was available and no one where I lived could drive much) this time the government is staying out of regulating the market which would causes shortages and even higher prices. Year on year increase in demand for gasoline in the US in May was 7 percent, but for July it was just one percent. Higher prices are encouraging people to conserve.

I think that there is a bubble in the oil market. Any news at all, good or bad, is an excuse to bid up the price of oil. This is classic bubble behavior. If you were looking for one key reason for high prices, I'd say it's speculation. There are obviously dozens of other things affecting the world oil market right now but speculation has to be at the top of the list.

We are one economic downturn away from cheap gas (the trough of oil/gas prices follows the trough of the business cycle by 2-3 years). A moderate recession in the USA will cause something approaching a depression in countries which rely on the US and Europe for exports or tourism.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:25:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
I'm going to wait for the solar powered cars to come into production. However I know that if this ever did come into effect the government would probably start charging us tax for use of the Sun. The future looks bright (LOL).

Huh? Why are you waiting? You research solar power, start your own company and build and market your own solar car.
You can be John Galt.



I'm actually woking on harnessing natural gas so I can fart my way back and forth to work everyday.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:29:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:30:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Buzz70:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
I'm going to wait for the solar powered cars to come into production. However I know that if this ever did come into effect the government would probably start charging us tax for use of the Sun. The future looks bright (LOL).

Huh? Why are you waiting? You research solar power, start your own company and build and market your own solar car.
You can be John Galt.



I'm actually woking on harnessing natural gas so I can fart my way back and forth to work everyday.

Will the cost of the beans be higher than the cost of gasoline?



That all depends on China. If those bastards start buying up all the beans we will be right back in the same boat.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:35:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Buzz70:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Buzz70:
I'm going to wait for the solar powered cars to come into production. However I know that if this ever did come into effect the government would probably start charging us tax for use of the Sun. The future looks bright (LOL).

Huh? Why are you waiting? You research solar power, start your own company and build and market your own solar car.
You can be John Galt.



I'm actually woking on harnessing natural gas so I can fart my way back and forth to work everyday.



I see lots of taco bell in your future.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:40:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:41:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Crimson_King:
Those of you saying you're thinking about buying a hybrid, do the math. You'd have to drive close to 350,000 miles (at today's gas prices) in that car to save enough money on gas to pay for the couple of thousand dollar premium over the price of a standard vehicle. Just FYI.




I did the math a couple days back at www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=377785&page=3

Here's a Corolla Vs Prius example, using the unrealistic mpg figures from Toyota's website and just using the base model sticker price:

------------------------------------------------

buying a more fuel efficient vehlicle doesn't necessarily save you money. If it costs you say $6,000 more to buy a Toyota Prius over a Toyota Corolla to save 11 mpg, you would have to save $6,000 in gas in one year to just to break even if you chose the Prius, $2,000 over 3 years, $1500 over 4 years, $1200 over 5 years, etc.

Take the 5 year window and assume gas is $2.50 a gallon, you'd have to save 400 gallons of gas a year. Take the highway mpg for both cars, 41 for the Corolla, 60 for the Prius. How many miles a year would you have to drive in the Prius to save $1200 in gas over the Corolla?

for any given milage, the Corolla will use 1/41th of a gallon and the Prius will use 1/60th of a gallon.

So let X be the number of miles driven by both vehicles. The corolla will use X/41 gallons and the Prius will use X/60 gallons, what value of X is (x/41) - (X/60) = 400?

Step 1: multiply X/41 by 60/60 and X/60 by 41/41

(X * 60)/(41 *60) - (X * 41)/(60 * 41) = 400

60X/2460 - 41X/2460 = 400

Step 2: sub 41X/2460 from 60X/2460

19X/2460 = 400

Step 3: multiply both sides by 2460:

19X = 400 * 2460 = 984,000

Step 4: divide both sides by 19:

X = 984,000/19 = 51789,.473 miles


So if you keep both cars for 5 years, you're better off getting the gas pig corolla if you drive less than 51,789.47 miles a year on the highway.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:42:48 AM EDT
Because they can!
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:48:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Crimson_King:
Those of you saying you're thinking about buying a hybrid, do the math. You'd have to drive close to 350,000 miles (at today's gas prices) in that car to save enough money on gas to pay for the couple of thousand dollar premium over the price of a standard vehicle. Just FYI.




That's just operating costs. Add to higher maintenance cost - even if the technology could be less expensive, the fact that it's "new" will result in higher charges for any repair. What about the batteries? They will be very costly to replace. ANd, what about the environmental costs of battery disposal, and the overall environmental impact of the production of another car.

So, you're right about the costs, just double them.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:18:32 AM EDT
two words... peak oil
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:56:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rjroberts:

Originally Posted By The_Crimson_King:
Those of you saying you're thinking about buying a hybrid, do the math. You'd have to drive close to 350,000 miles (at today's gas prices) in that car to save enough money on gas to pay for the couple of thousand dollar premium over the price of a standard vehicle. Just FYI.

hr


That's just operating costs. Add to higher maintenance cost - even if the technology could be less expensive, the fact that it's "new" will result in higher charges for any repair. What about the batteries? They will be very costly to replace. ANd, what about the environmental costs of battery disposal, and the overall environmental impact of the production of another car.

So, you're right about the costs, just double them.



The cost of a replacement Prius battery pack is like $6500. How about resale value? Try selling a Prius with 80,000 miles on the clock to someone who knows they'll have to shell out another $6500 to keep it running a year from now. There was a great article about this whole issue in this month's Car & Driver.

Hybrid cars are not the answer to the problem. They're a whole new set of problems.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:59:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Crimson_King:
..... before you start talking about how the government should get involved and "do something?"...



Well, that's part of the problem. The government IS involved and IS doing something. Imposing envronmental regulations, preventing exploration and development of domestic resources......


I for one would like to see the government get un-involved and do nothing.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:05:01 AM EDT
bio diesel. Make farming a big business again and cut the golden goat out in the M.E.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:14:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 7:16:30 AM EDT by kingfish]
Our president is an oil man. Our vice president is an oil man. Our presidents best friends are oil men. You do the math.

If you don't believe me, ask yourself: Why is congress investigating something trivial like baseball roids, and not the price of gas?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:15:45 AM EDT
We are a Free Market economy, anyone care to define this without looking it up?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:18:16 AM EDT
Simple...

The Man has the gas, you want it and He knows you will pay whatever He wants for it!



Any more questions?

BigDozer66

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