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Link Posted: 9/9/2008 5:36:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Horseman:

Originally Posted By septic-tank13:

i have both small and large pin lowers built and ready to go.  anyhelp you guys might be able to provide would be super.


Well, I won't be able to install my Geiselle for another 4-6 weeks -- my intended lower is off to Orion for some sexing up with awesome (and stylish!) engravings.  This is part of my "ultimate-for-me" all purpose carbine project, so I wanted everything "just so".  Hence my barrage of questions.  :)

Anyway, when I get the lower back home and built, I'll be happy to put in a second opinion about the one I got.

I'll also pester Toqueville, my roomie, to post his experiences with his Double Star trigger.  It's not in the list, but it looks like a spot-on clone of the Armalite, with the three spring positions.  Hopefully, we'll be able to run the new kids through a practical test before real long, and can give some good feedback.


your direct feedback is certainly wanted.  however, i meant if someone had a trigger they were willing to loan so i could do the T/E i would be in their debt...

Link Posted: 9/9/2008 6:49:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By septic-tank13:

your direct feedback is certainly wanted.  however, i meant if someone had a trigger they were willing to loan so i could do the T/E i would be in their debt...



Roger that, chief!  Just doing what I can!
Link Posted: 9/12/2008 2:49:45 AM EST
Very informative, thank you.
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 4:36:31 PM EST
Great post.

Can you add a review of the colt factory match trigger kit?

Link Posted: 10/8/2008 4:56:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Great post.

Can you add a review of the colt factory match trigger kit?

i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/AR15Fan/IMG_0010.jpg?t=1223500687


i don't have the parts for a picture but i can review what it was like.  it wouldn't be fair IMO however...  i'll see if i can scare one up.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 2:14:21 PM EST
Great post!

I was wondering if you might have any info about or experience with Bill Springfield's tuned triggers as seen here: www.triggerwork.net/

or here: www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1180

Thanks again for your research.
Link Posted: 10/18/2008 10:49:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By keishik:
Great post!

I was wondering if you might have any info about or experience with Bill Springfield's tuned triggers as seen here: www.triggerwork.net/

or here: www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1180

Thanks again for your research.


i sent four emails with links to this post and haven't seen a reply.

in fairness, i haven't seen the work performed.  however, if it really is a scenario, as has been explained to me by another smith, that involves grinding down the stock surface hardened hammer and sear then i can't imagine it would be a long term piece you could rely upon.  frankly if you're a plinker that could work.  if you're anything else i'd skip it.  burning past the surface hardening won't matter much, nor will it be problematic if you shoot rarely.  if you use your rig much then accelerated wear will become an issue before long.  there isn't any way around it.  food for thought...

to keep this in context, i'd consider a "plinker" somebody who pops maybe 500 primers through his AR a year or less in a non-work role.  (some LE don't use theirs much, but i'd not mess with a tinkered hammer and sear in a life dependency situation, even though most patrol carbines see little use)
Link Posted: 10/21/2008 10:35:47 AM EST
Good to know.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 4:11:30 PM EST
Awesome Post!  As a total newbie to the field, ( I just bought my 1st stripped down lower yesterday)  This is very informative and helpful to me.  I am on here sponging all I can... trying to decide which direction my new project will take.  Earlier in this thread, you mentioned a comparison of the grips as well... I was just curious how that was coming along...  Thanks for all the great info!
Link Posted: 11/6/2008 9:34:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By ogreabroad:
Awesome Post!  As a total newbie to the field, ( I just bought my 1st stripped down lower yesterday)  This is very informative and helpful to me.  I am on here sponging all I can... trying to decide which direction my new project will take.  Earlier in this thread, you mentioned a comparison of the grips as well... I was just curious how that was coming along...  Thanks for all the great info!


grips will come, but i'm only going to venture into that when i finish up the triggers i'm testing to add to this.





Link Posted: 11/7/2008 12:45:24 PM EST
OK... thanks for the research, it is greatly appreciated!
Link Posted: 11/8/2008 7:52:43 PM EST
Great info! Thanks...........
Link Posted: 11/25/2008 5:44:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/25/2008 5:45:59 PM EST by Dreban]
Great article.  

I bought myself an Accuracy Speaks single stage for my Colt LE6920 and couldn't be happier.  I was up at the range where their shop is in Mesa and walked mine right over from the 3-gun match I had just had fun plinkin in!  Took him 20 minutes to tune it up for me.  Spectacular.  No creep.  4.5lb pull.  Just like a bolt gun.  I couldn't be happier.....


One MAJOR PROBLEM.  I had to return my Colt for a refund and bought a Noveske N4 Light Recce upper built on a Vltor VIS monolithic rail.  I had taken out the Accuracy Speaks trigger components from the Colt and put them in a ziplock for safe keeping.  Then I put them somewhere special so I'd not forget it.  

When I assembled my lower from a Stag stripped lower I had sitting around, I couldn't remember for the life of me where I put the damn Ziplock!!

FFFFUUUUUUUU!!!!!!  

So now I'm rockin' a fantastic black rifle with the stock trigger that came in my Rock River Arms parts kit.  No offense to RRA; I love their stuff.  But any stock AR trigger is horrible, IMO.  

I've torn my house apart...twice.  No joy.  If Accuracy Speaks is listening and feeling in the holiday giving mood, could you be Santa for me and send me another???  Worth a try.  

I'll stumble across it someday.  Moral of the story is: Best $180 I ever spent on an M4 component.
Link Posted: 11/26/2008 12:18:23 AM EST
First of all, great write up.  Taking the time to evaluate and provide such detail is greatly appreciated.  I read the entire post through twice but still have a question to ask.



I am looking to improve my current trigger group for the purposes of range shooting, hunting and CQB...probably in that order of priority.  I am shooting a Bushmaster XM-15 shorty AK that has had the AK brake removed and converted to a Phantom among many mods.  I have some experience in minor gunsmithing items and have reasonable common sense if I do say so myself.  Based upon my stated uses, if you would provide me with what you perceive to be the most suitable trigger groups from the ones you tested, I would greatly appreciate it.  Again, thanks for taking the time to do the original post!  AB
Link Posted: 11/26/2008 7:41:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By AgBullet:
First of all, great write up.  Taking the time to evaluate and provide such detail is greatly appreciated.  I read the entire post through twice but still have a question to ask.

I am looking to improve my current trigger group for the purposes of range shooting, hunting and CQB...probably in that order of priority.  I am shooting a Bushmaster XM-15 shorty AK that has had the AK brake removed and converted to a Phantom among many mods.  I have some experience in minor gunsmithing items and have reasonable common sense if I do say so myself.  Based upon my stated uses, if you would provide me with what you perceive to be the most suitable trigger groups from the ones you tested, I would greatly appreciate it.  Again, thanks for taking the time to do the original post!  AB


i'll offer opinion...

the premise of this article was twofold.  one, to provide directy knowledge and some insight into the triggers so people could cyber-fondle them prior to buying.  two, it was to show that "best" is subjective and perception.  one guy's best won't be anothers.  no more, no less.

if it were me in your appication, i'd go with a two stage.  then i'd narrow it down to something with a full power spring set.  if you're shooting 7.62x39 those light strikes may not always work depending on the ammo you're using.  that narrows us to a some of those in components to something like the armalite, geiselle, or AA.  in drop in, you have the JP or CMC.  of those i just mentioned the geiselle and the AA are my favorites.  i really liked them for all the reasons I would buy a fire control group.  the JP and CMC would be my second choices.  if you're into no frills, average money, reliable stuff, the armalite is a kick ass unit.  

i have more triggers i'm finishing up now to add.  many of them would satisfy your needs.  however, i can't let the cat out of the bag.  give me a bit yet and i'll post the whole addition...

Link Posted: 12/3/2008 5:59:29 PM EST
Does anyone have any experience with the Jard adjustable triggers?  I'd appreciate any comments either way.  THANX––M/sgt GENO
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 8:55:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By msgtGENO:
Does anyone have any experience with the Jard adjustable triggers?  I'd appreciate any comments either way.  THANX––M/sgt GENO


i've tried and tried to work with jard and even though they aren't located far from my area here in iowa, they will not participate with this test.  take that FWIW...

not related to this test, i have used many jard triggers and those of low trigger pull weight were notoriously unreliable.  FTFs, and dimpled primers as the disconnector failed to work were routine.  i hold them (the low weight units - 3lbs and below) in low regard.  i've used some of them adjusted to higher weights without issue.

i had resigned myself not to mention them, but since you asked i answered.  there are others out there that declined to participate.  some were cordial and some were down right rude...  

Link Posted: 12/10/2008 3:57:44 PM EST
Anybody know if the AA trigger is surface hardened or through hardened?
Link Posted: 12/11/2008 10:57:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By IPSICK:
Anybody know if the AA trigger is surface hardened or through hardened?


through hardened and completely chromed.

Link Posted: 12/11/2008 1:22:43 PM EST
Thanks for the info.  I'm sold.  Will be ordering it for my lower.
Link Posted: 1/16/2009 10:52:05 AM EST
Did the 4lb Timney have ant Failure to ignite problems or was that just the 3lb?
Link Posted: 1/16/2009 5:07:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By rick458:
Did the 4lb Timney have ant Failure to ignite problems or was that just the 3lb?


3lb 15 set.  the 4lb set was fine.

Link Posted: 1/18/2009 6:51:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2009 6:51:41 PM EST by tt350z]
I just installed a Timney 3lb to mine. I had no failure to ignite using XM193, although I only put about 150 downrange. I also did the floor screws which prevents the factory pins from walking/rotating.

I previously had the JP yellow springs in with the DPMS LPK trigger and I would honestly get about 2 failures to ignite per magazine using XM193 from the same case.
Link Posted: 1/20/2009 10:23:55 AM EST
I will use Handloads for the Timney so I shouldn't see any problems, for my Carbine build that new Geissele SSA looks like a winner
Link Posted: 4/2/2009 9:58:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By msgtGENO:
Does anyone have any experience with the Jard adjustable triggers?  I'd appreciate any comments either way.  THANX––M/sgt GENO



A couple of months ago I purchased a Jard single stage 2 lb trigger from Midway.  If you follow the instructions it's an easy install just different then the 2 stage Bushmaster NM trigger.  I am sold on it and wouldn't change it for anything.  I didn't have a trigger scale but had 1.9 lb lead weight and a 2.1 lb lead weight.  I couldn't pick up the 1.9 lb weight but could pick up the 2.1 lb weight.  I figure it's right on and clean breaking like a glass rod.  If you decide to put one in be sure and follow step #17.  I had to go back and readjust it but it's perfect and I've no complaints.  So I want you all to know, the Jard trigger is the finest trigger I've used in a Bushmaster Varminter.  
Link Posted: 4/9/2009 1:36:07 PM EST
septic-tank13,
 On here you listed that RRA has a 2 stage varmint trigger, I wasn't able to find it on there website, so I called them and they said they had never heard of it. I was wondering if you actually got that trigger from them or maybe that was a mistake?

Thanks Josh
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 10:17:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By boshj:
septic-tank13,
 On here you listed that RRA has a 2 stage varmint trigger, I wasn't able to find it on there website, so I called them and they said they had never heard of it. I was wondering if you actually got that trigger from them or maybe that was a mistake?

Thanks Josh


Boshj......RRA has a 2-stage match trigger designed for drop in with no adjustments.
I've iinstalled one of them and just ordered a couple more. They seem to do the trick
with no tweeking. There's a good review on them earlier in this thread.
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 7:24:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By boshj:
septic-tank13,
 On here you listed that RRA has a 2 stage varmint trigger, I wasn't able to find it on there website, so I called them and they said they had never heard of it. I was wondering if you actually got that trigger from them or maybe that was a mistake?

Thanks Josh


i was given both.  although i'm not certain, i believe the "varmint" unit was destined to become an option, but may have been put on the back burner.  it was essentially the same thing as the NM, but at a lighter weight on both stages.

they currently sell the NM only to my knowledge.  does this help?

Link Posted: 4/16/2009 1:43:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2009 2:01:16 PM EST by WWhunter1]
Funny!! I just got done reading through this entire thread an was about to post the same question.
I have one of my AR's built as a varmit rig and am wanting a better trigger. I was leaning towards the RRA due to cost. I seem to remember seeing a 4lb and a 3.5 lb. listed on their site. Possibly the 3.5 is their "varmiter" trigger.

EDIT:My mistake, I went back and looked at Brownell's...It was a J P Enterprise trigger that had the two different weights...3.5 and 4lb.

Believe it or not I have been using a military issued -16 trigger in this rifle for years. I am a ex-military marksmanship team member and it was what we used when I was a team member...(MANY years ago)...I smoothed this trigger up some but have recently been researching replacing it with something manufactured for a better pull.
What would you suggest for strictly a varmit type rifle trigger? The AR has a SS 22" (or 24" not at home to measure right now)1:8 bull barrel and I use it strictly for Beaver extermination and coyotes. Oh, a few crows get popped with it too.

Thanks,
WW


Link Posted: 4/17/2009 4:14:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By WWhunter1:

What would you suggest for strictly a varmit type rifle trigger?



if you're ok with two stage, which some are and some aren't, you'll be fine with just about any of them.  if you want to put in a unit that can be either/or you might consider the JP.  it is easy to adjust, a quality piece, and you can essentially set it up about any way you like it.
Link Posted: 5/26/2009 7:15:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2009 7:17:50 PM EST by Wangstang]
Someone help me here...there is a company/guy who offers a trigger group that starts with a milspec trigger that you send him, he then does his magic to it and when he returns it, you can preload/tension the trigger by moving the safety between safe and fire for precision shots and then leave it on fire for standard simi-auto fire.

Anyone know the company?

Wes

Edit: Just found it: http://www.williamstriggers.com/

Anyone use them?
Link Posted: 7/9/2009 12:39:24 AM EST
Does anyone have any good info on this new Wilson TTU?

I'm currently trying to decide between the Wilson TTU, the Geisselle SSF, or the Geisselle Service rifle trigger.

I would prefer a single stage and don't want to wonder about reliability and durability.  I don't want to wait eight months for a Geisselle SSA so I'm thinking of jumping on an SSF, supposedly they will work in semi-auto lowers as well.

The things I have read about the new Wilson TTU have REALLY peaked my interest, but I'm hesitant to drop that kind of cash on something so new.  If anybody can share ANY info with me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

For those of you who haven't heard anything about these triggers, here is a compilation of almost all the info that I have....


http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=450184

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=448131

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=441458

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=446312

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=446310

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=446311

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=445877

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=435585




Also...if anybody knows where a guy can purchase one of these things already, please let me know.
Link Posted: 7/9/2009 12:40:23 AM EST

Also, OP, thanks for the effort you have put into this.  This has been a great resource for our community!
Link Posted: 7/9/2009 1:54:34 AM EST
A tuned GI trigger is a really good option if you shoot close and quick.  It's not bad for distance  either (say 200 yards or more depending on your proficiency and the weapon/ammo combination).

It may look a little ghetto but trimming/lightening the hammer will cut lock time (or you can just buy the JP Speed Hammer).

The next best single stage options are either the JP or Derrick Martin's Accuracy Speaks trigger.

Aftermarket trigger systems abound now not because they're all great but because the stock trigger leaves so much to be desired (some are so bad it feels like dragging a cinder block across a parking lot before you get the break).  A good tuning will cost a fraction what a drop-in will cost, especially if the aftermarket dies before you wear out the barrel and have to pay postage back-and-forthing or decide to buy something else (ever wonder why they're in modular drop-in packs?).

First decide what you're using the rifle for before dropping a lot of coin just because it's an "Action Shooting" or "National Match" trigger.  If you can get your stock trigger tuned cheap for running and gunning the money you save can go to bullets or optics.

Just my two cents as someone who sees a lot of gimmicky shit peddled to take away your hard-earned money.  Been there, been stuck looking stupid and poorer.
Link Posted: 7/10/2009 12:25:17 PM EST
Does anybody know if any of the standard trigger groups are through hardened?
Link Posted: 7/10/2009 9:23:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By atblis:
Does anybody know if any of the standard trigger groups are through hardened?


if they are truly mil spec, then they are surface hardened.  i'm not aware of ANY maker of mil spec fire control groups that through harden the hammer and shoe.

Link Posted: 7/18/2009 3:06:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2009 6:16:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2009 6:21:16 PM EST by EternalVigilance]
Well, I have the patience of a four year old, so I went ahead and purchased a RRA two-stage for use now on my new coyote / precision setup while I wait, and also placed a Geiselle non-adjustable two-stage (SSA) on back-order with ADCO.

I had about $300 budgeted for this, and would have liked to try the wilson out, but I couldn't find one.  If I waited I wouldn't have anything now (yes, I am an instant gratification kind of guy ), but $300 gave me enough room to get the RRA one now while I wait for the back-order on the SSA.

One of these days I might get a wilson for one of my other setups, once they become more available and I can harvest some more data from people who have had a chance to try them out.  They sound pretty sweet.  I'll keep my eye out for info on them.

If I would have have found one available online I probably would have ordered that instead of going the route I did.
Link Posted: 8/2/2009 4:34:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2009 4:39:01 PM EST by elkoholic]
Wilson Combat....They seem to have them now!

Any news/thoughts of the self acclaimed best trigger.... Gold Trigger by ATC?
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 1:06:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By elkoholic:
Wilson Combat....They seem to have them now!

Any news/thoughts of the self acclaimed best trigger.... Gold Trigger by ATC?


testing one currently.

Link Posted: 8/7/2009 11:45:27 AM EST
Great!
Link Posted: 8/19/2009 8:33:42 PM EST
Any feedback to report on the American Gold Trigger yet?  Great write up by the way.  I am looking forward to your take on this trigger as well.
Link Posted: 8/20/2009 12:33:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
Well, I have the patience of a four year old, so I went ahead and purchased a RRA two-stage for use now on my new coyote / precision setup while I wait, and also placed a Geiselle non-adjustable two-stage (SSA) on back-order with ADCO.

I had about $300 budgeted for this, and would have liked to try the wilson out, but I couldn't find one.  If I waited I wouldn't have anything now (yes, I am an instant gratification kind of guy ), but $300 gave me enough room to get the RRA one now while I wait for the back-order on the SSA.

One of these days I might get a wilson for one of my other setups, once they become more available and I can harvest some more data from people who have had a chance to try them out.  They sound pretty sweet.  I'll keep my eye out for info on them.

If I would have have found one available online I probably would have ordered that instead of going the route I did.



Update...I canceled the Geiselle ...in hopes of a good review of the Wilson.

I am looking for the most durable non-six-month-wait, non-fifteen-lb trigger I can find.  Single stage preferred.  Obviously the trigger must be safe as well.


Any info on the Wilson would be welcome!
Link Posted: 9/9/2009 6:50:09 PM EST
Nice write and thank you for the effort.

My two cents, trigger is only one part of being accurate but everyone should really focus on the entire set as well. Light triggers will not make you a master sniper so shoot often and set up your rifle the way you want to. It is after all yours to use so do as you want with it as long as you enjoy it. Float that barrel LMAO.

Thank you again, nice discussion here.

:)
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 3:08:18 AM EST
I'm new and never own an ar before. I got my first build going and I just started about 2 months ago. But before that never had any experience with an ar expect shooting one at a range about 10yrs ago.

So what makes some of these high end triggers different from rra, armalite, stag and what not? I mean they way they look are pretty standard for the ar's.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 11:18:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 11:19:43 PM EST by JeffCsr]
Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By atblis:
Does anybody know if any of the standard trigger groups are through hardened?


if they are truly mil spec, then they are surface hardened.  i'm not aware of ANY maker of mil spec fire control groups that through harden the hammer and shoe.



And yet others say that surface hardening is not true...  last post page 2

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=445628&page=2

I'm so confused I've just about given up looking for a new trigger.   One says RRA is good, another says RRA is crap

What about LMT ?
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 9:39:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By JeffCsr:
What about LMT ?


the LMT is being tested currently.

Link Posted: 9/15/2009 1:56:11 PM EST
Do you have any suggestion on what trigger to use on a 9mm ar15?
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 2:20:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By 40xb-shooter:
Do you have any suggestion on what trigger to use on a 9mm ar15?


the entire premise of this series of tests is to avoid the "best" trigger myths and shed light on them so you may decide.  assuming your 9mm is for carbine/fun/plinking, i'd imagine a two stage unit would be the ticket.  any of the NM genre triggers would work fine.  keep in mind i've never tested a 9mm AR, so if the hammer has special requirements i can't directly provide feedback.  apparently i should consider adding a 9mm to my collection so i can try one first hand.  i may just do that...

i'd much prefer a two stage trigger of smooth operation for this application in the way i'd choose to use the rig.  that may not work for you, but without knowing all the particulars you have to start somewhere...

i hope this helps.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 4:21:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2009 4:21:50 PM EST by 40xb-shooter]
Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By 40xb-shooter:
Do you have any suggestion on what trigger to use on a 9mm ar15?


the entire premise of this series of tests is to avoid the "best" trigger myths and shed light on them so you may decide.  assuming your 9mm is for carbine/fun/plinking, i'd imagine a two stage unit would be the ticket.  any of the NM genre triggers would work fine.  keep in mind i've never tested a 9mm AR, so if the hammer has special requirements i can't directly provide feedback.  apparently i should consider adding a 9mm to my collection so i can try one first hand.  i may just do that...

i'd much prefer a two stage trigger of smooth operation for this application in the way i'd choose to use the rig.  that may not work for you, but without knowing all the particulars you have to start somewhere...

i hope this helps.


Yeah it is for plinking and for shooting cheaper at classes in a sense. It does require a specific hammer requirements but I was thinking to try and see if I could piece one together to see if it works. Or putting a standard trigger in and see what happens. I mean it will either fire or not.

I enjoyed building my 9mm rifle. It still needs a little cosmetic work but it is functional and techically completed. Plus it is cheaper to shoot compared to .223/.308 and it has stopping power which a 22 lr does not.
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