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Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:06:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
want some free 75gr wolf hp to test?

email me.

GREAT write ups molon.



Wolf 75 grain HP





As I’m sure you all know, Wolf is now distributing a 223 Remington, 75 grain hollow point version of their metal cased, “bi-metal” jacketed bullet ammunition. While the 75 grain bullet does indeed have an open tip at the meplat, it is not exactly a typical hollow point design as the base of the bullet is also open, with exposed lead, as in the configuration of a full metal jacketed bullet.









While I’m sure you’ll bring up exceptions to my next statement, the odds are, that if you are using 223 Remington Wolf metal cased ammunition, you’ll probably be firing it from a chrome lined, NATO chambered barrel. For this reason I chose to evaluate the accuracy of the Wolf ammunition using just such a barrel. Accuracy testing was performed at a distance of 100 yards shooting from a concrete bench. The free-float tube of the rifle rode in a Sinclair Windage Bench Rest and the stock of the rifle was stabilized in a Protecktor bunny-ear bag. Wind conditions were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe.

The barrel used as the test vehicle was a 20” Colt HBAR with a 1:7” twist and as mentioned has chrome lining and a NATO chamber. This barrel has repeatedly demonstrated the ability to fire 10-shot groups from 100 yards that hover just above 1 MOA in extreme spread when using match grade ammunition. Sighting was performed using a Leupold VARI-X III with a mirage shade attached. Magnification was set to 25X and the scope was adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards.









Immediately prior to testing the 75 grain Wolf ammunition, I fired a 10-shot control group from 100 yards with the above set-up using factory loaded Hornady 223 Remington 75 grain TAP ammunition. That 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.1”.








In order to remove as much of the human variable from the process as is reasonably possible and to give the Wolf ammunition ample opportunity to prove itself, I fired five, 10-shot groups of the Wolf ammunition from 100 yards and used the smallest three of those groups for evaluation. Those three groups had extreme spreads of:

5.5”
4.5”
5.7”

for an average extreme spread of 5.2” The three groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group which had a mean radius of 1.47”.

For comparison, three 10-shot groups of Hornady’s steel cased 75 grain “practice” ammunition previously fired from this same barrel at 100 yards had an average extreme spread of 1.45”. The three 10-shot groups of the Hornady practice ammunition over-layed on each other to form a 30-shot composite group had a mean radius of 0.49”.








Here's a pic of the smallest Wolf 75 grain HP group.






At one point during firing, I experienced a stoppage. Locking the bolt back to examine the chamber area, I discovered a fired case stuck in the chamber and observed that the extractor had torn throuh the case head. The case had to be tapped out of the chamber using a cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle. This is the only time that I have ever had a case stick in the chamber of any of my AR-15s.









update


Wolf 75 grain HP: Lot - B





I purchased a new lot of the Wolf 75 grain hollow point Performance Ammunition and performed an accuracy (technically precision) evaluation of it in the same manner as described in the first post of this thread. For this evaluation I also used a different 20” Colt HBAR than the one used in the first evaluation as the test vehicle. This barrel has a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7” twist; just as the barrel used in the initial evaluation. This barrel was also free-floated. The rest of the set-up was basically identical in capability to that described in the first post, including front and rear rests and a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification. As always, the wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe.





I fired a 10-shot control group from 100 yards using match-grade, hand-loaded 55 grain Sierra BlitzKings. The extreme spread of that group measured 1.03”.






Next, five 10-shot groups of the Wolf 75 grain HP load were fired in a row from the bench at a distance of 100 yards. The extreme spreads for those five groups measured:

3.41”
6.09”
3.59”
5.43”
4.63”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 4.63”. Over-laying all five groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab produced a 50-shot composite group with a mean radius of 1.24”.



The “smallest” 10-shot group.







The 50-shot composite group.






With the addition of these newest five groups, we now have a combined total of ten, 10-shot groups, fired by two different shooters, from three different barrels, using two different lots of the Wolf 75 grain Performance Ammunition. The results are summarized below.







Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:07:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By squirrell18:
I've owned many AR15s since 1996 and the only time I've ever had a jam or stoppage was using wolf ammo. I would ask if you had any jams during the test . . .



Yes. See the results above from the testing of the 75 grain load.

Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:10:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2010 5:34:18 PM EDT by Molon]

Originally posted by Hotgun:

A scientific test would have fired control groups using other ammunition . . .



Did you even read the original post of this thread, or did you just skip that important step and go directly to trolling? If you did read the original post, then you’ve demonstrated that your reading comprehension abilities are sadly lacking. It was clearly stated in the original post,

“Also, ‘control groups’ were fired from the barrels used in the evaluation using match-grade hand-loaded ammunition; in order to demonstrate the capability of each barrel.”

The extreme spreads of the control groups were given in the original post and two pictures of control groups were posted as documentation.






Originally posted by Hotgun:

. . . it indicates what one particular rilfe is capable of.



Again, you demonstrate either your lack of reading comprehension ability or that you are purposely trolling. Which is it? It was clearly stated in the original post that two different barrels were used in testing and that they produced nearly identical results. Descriptions of the two different barrels were given along with pictures of each.




Originally posted by Hotgun:

This . . . is better than average as far as test procedure.



The test procedures demonstrated in the original post produced far better data than anything that you or anyone else here has contributed on the subject matter in the way of first-hand, factual data. Why don’t you actually contribute something to this website (a quick use of the search function shows that you haven’t authored one single thread contributing first-hand factual data) and pony-up some of your cash, your time and your effort for testing and post the results of your first-hand data on the subject matter?

Be sure to use chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrels and statistically significant 10-shot groups. Then we’ll see if you’re able to produce any significantly better accuracy/precision with the Wolf, steel cased, bimetal ammunition. I’ll be waiting to see your test results.






Originally posted by Hotgun:

Just for grins......would there happen to be similar test data, using the same rifle, equipment, etc for OTHER commercial ammunition?


You’ve been here since 2004? Had you made the slightest bit of effort before posting your smug comments, you would have discovered that there is a large volume of test data that was obtained using the same or similar barrels and equipment for “OTHER commercial ammunition.”


Speer 64 grain Gold Dot LE




Nosler 77 grain BTHP Custom Competition




Hornady 60 grain TAP, Federal Tactical 62 grain bonded soft point, Prvi Partizan 62 grain FMJ, Corbon 62 grain DPX . . .



IMI M855



Hornady 75 grain Match, Hornady 75 grain 223 TAP



Hornady 5.56 TAP, Hornady 75 grain TAP FPD and here, and here and here and here and here and here and here.



Black Hills 77 grain MK262



HSM 75 grain 5.56 Tactical, HMS 75 grain 223 Tactical



Hornady 75 grain Practice ammunition


Black Hills 75 grain OTM (blue box and red box) and here.





Prvi Partizan M193 range report



Prvi Partizan 75 grain OTM




Wolf 75 grain HP





Silver State Armory 77 grain OTM


Federal 62 grain Fusion


77 grain Sierra MatchKing loads from: Black Hills, CORBON, Federal and Buffalo Bore


Observations on the Barnes TSX bullets




IMI M855 2009


Hornady 55 grain FMJ




Winchester Q3131A1





The Wolf of Truth



The Trouble with 3-Shot Groups





Accuracy Evaluation of 6 Different Noveske Barrels



Accuracy Evaluation of a Colt 16" Light-weight Barrel




One-Shot "Groups"



Copmpeting With the Past: Accuracy Evaluation of Colt A1 Barrel




Papa Larue, Mama LaRue and Baby LaRue








Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:16:41 PM EDT
Nice write up. Matches up to my experiences as well.

Brad
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:18:32 PM EDT
It will work.
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:18:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By the1919man:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By smith368:
This Wolf stuff must be what they use in the movies You just keep shooting until you hit your intended target.


It's what the A-team used out of their Mini-14's in the t.v. series.

Now there's a scary thought, Wolf out of a mini14. That just sounds more dangerous than Russian roulette.

Why is wolf so stupidly varied? Wolf gold 223 is a nice fun round. Wolf MT in 22LF is constantly at or near 1moa from my 10/22 (its pretty really far from stock), but most other wolf is so shitty that you may as well just throw it down range, you stand a greater chance of hitting something, anything.

I know wolf is repackaged from other manufactures, privi for the wolf gold, Lapua for wolf mt....
But you would think that they would actually try to show their entire line in a better light. Make some kind of a respectful name for themselves.

OK rant over.

As you were.


Because Wolf Gold is actually repacked Privi Partisan, Wolf match rimfire ammo is made in Germany, and Wolf steel cased centerfire ammo is made in Russia. It's not all made at the same place
by the same people.

Duh, did you even read my post or do you just like repeating verbatim what I just posted?
My rant was not about why the rounds are so different, it was why does wolf package such widely varied quality of rounds.

Reading comprehension, learn it, use it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:35:00 PM EDT
Most of the wolf I shoot is Military Classic (the Camo Box) and yes it is produced at a completely different plant.
Wolf Does not manufacture the Ammo they are merely the importer.

I haven't tried precision shooting with wolf past 50 yds...

But I will say I can at least make a majority of the rounds touch each other at 50yds. So I'd find it hard to believe they'd open up to 4 inches at 100 yards. (again this is not Black box, and is manufactured at an entirely different plant) Because they are definitely no greater then 1-1.5 inches at 50 yards... and that's from my hands (prone), with an Aimpoint. Not Locked into a device (so there is still the variable of me aiming). So I'd like to say if I had a magnified optic and did this at 100, even if my margin of error was the same my groups would be between 2-3 inches.
And That is better then 3-4 out of Black box (if there is in fact a difference in quality between the two)

But Who knows... It's not quality ammo to begin with... Compared to better Brass Cased Ammo.

So I am equally curious to see a similar test done with the Military Classic wolf, and see if it's comparably better then black box.

Good Post.
Thanks for the Info.

Oh and in case any one is curious. The Wolf I use is being fired out of a 1:7 twist 2nd Gen POF 16" Upper.
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 5:53:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By MRW:
Black box wolf is one thing, but the cammo box Military Classic is another. I've "heard" the cammo box is better ammo, produced at a different plant.

I'd like to see a cammo box test.

And I've already come to the conclusion that black box wolf is junk, but it works well for a 50 yard carbine course/action match

I've had zero problems with black box - never worried about the accuracy (shooting it out of my M4 at less then 200yds) but cammo box is the only ammo I've ever had stop up my rifle.

Military Classic wolf is garbage.


????

It's usually the opposite...

And no offense... but any rifle that can't fire ALL types of Wolf (and other Massed produced Cartridges) is a Garbage Rifle... Maybe you should look at your rifle, not the Ammo...

I've been through thousands of both.
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 7:01:42 PM EDT
Molon, you do us all a great service and also to the ammo manufacturers, as truth in performance testing yields a better product in a competitive market. So, thanks. I don't see how anyone could reasonably crticize your methodology, so ignore the sniping please.
Next, to what do you attribute the awful group size? Powder variation, run out, or ?? Possibly you've answered this before, so please just link it if so.
I also request a Silver Bear comparison test as I use it and I might as well face the ugly truth now. As to the Wolf, maybe great machinegun ammo?
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 7:55:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2010 8:10:55 PM EDT by Molon]
Originally Posted By SouthPark:
Molon, you do us all a great service and also to the ammo manufacturers, as truth in performance testing yields a better product in a competitive market. So, thanks. I don't see how anyone could reasonably crticize your methodology, so ignore the sniping please.
Next, to what do you attribute the awful group size? Powder variation, run out, or ?? Possibly you've answered this before, so please just link it if so.
I also request a Silver Bear comparison test as I use it and I might as well face the ugly truth now. As to the Wolf, maybe great machinegun ammo?


If I had to look at one single aspect that was affecting the accuracy of this ammunition, I’d be looking at the three-layered, bimetal bullet jacket. Three different layers to a bullet jacket can’t be a good thing when trying to maintain uniformity. Also, the bases of the Wolf bimetal bullets are some of the most inconsistent that I've ever seen.

As a comparison, the J4 Precision Jacket used in Nosler Custom Competition bullets and of course Berger bullets is held to a tolerance of 0.0003”, for every lot. What do you imagine the tolerance is for the Wolf bimetal jacket?




Link Posted: 8/3/2010 8:09:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 8:19:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 8:29:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By the1919man:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Why is wolf so stupidly varied? Wolf gold 223 is a nice fun round. Wolf MT in 22LF is constantly at or near 1moa from my 10/22 (its pretty really far from stock), but most other wolf is so shitty that you may as well just throw it down range, you stand a greater chance of hitting something, anything.

I know wolf is repackaged from other manufactures, privi for the wolf gold, Lapua for wolf mt....
But you would think that they would actually try to show their entire line in a better light. Make some kind of a respectful name for themselves.

OK rant over.

As you were.


Because Wolf Gold is actually repacked Privi Partisan, Wolf match rimfire ammo is made in Germany, and Wolf steel cased centerfire ammo is made in Russia. It's not all made at the same place
by the same people.

Duh, did you even read my post or do you just like repeating verbatim what I just posted?
My rant was not about why the rounds are so different, it was why does wolf package such widely varied quality of rounds.

Reading comprehension, learn it, use it.
Actually, Wolf Black Box is made by one plant, and Wolf Military Classic by another-both steel cased, yet most people report the MC is hotter and more accurate than BB. Not "repackaged," really, either, as Wolf is a distributor/vendor and they contract with various makers for the ammo they market. Thus the1919man's point was quite valid-Wolf doesn't make ammunition, and they're apparently not picky about standards for their 5.56mm contracts. Since they don't make anything, they don't have an "entire line" to "show in a good light." They're a middle-man, and they're making plenty of money with such "all over the place" performance-why should they spend more money to look better?

Link Posted: 8/3/2010 9:18:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By the1919man:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Why is wolf so stupidly varied? Wolf gold 223 is a nice fun round. Wolf MT in 22LF is constantly at or near 1moa from my 10/22 (its pretty really far from stock), but most other wolf is so shitty that you may as well just throw it down range, you stand a greater chance of hitting something, anything.

I know wolf is repackaged from other manufactures, privi for the wolf gold, Lapua for wolf mt....
But you would think that they would actually try to show their entire line in a better light. Make some kind of a respectful name for themselves.

OK rant over.

As you were.


Because Wolf Gold is actually repacked Privi Partisan, Wolf match rimfire ammo is made in Germany, and Wolf steel cased centerfire ammo is made in Russia. It's not all made at the same place
by the same people.

Duh, did you even read my post or do you just like repeating verbatim what I just posted?
My rant was not about why the rounds are so different, it was why does wolf package such widely varied quality of rounds.

Reading comprehension, learn it, use it.
Actually, Wolf Black Box is made by one plant, and Wolf Military Classic by another-both steel cased, yet most people report the MC is hotter and more accurate than BB. Not "repackaged," really, either, as Wolf is a distributor/vendor and they contract with various makers for the ammo they market. Thus the1919man's point was quite valid-Wolf doesn't make ammunition, and they're apparently not picky about standards for their 5.56mm contracts. Since they don't make anything, they don't have an "entire line" to "show in a good light." They're a middle-man, and they're making plenty of money with such "all over the place" performance-why should they spend more money to look better?


Because being known for a good product is much better marketing strategy. Word of mouth is a big sales diving force. If your known for a good product people buy on name alone. Many more people will buy the Privi Partisan 75gr match than they will the Wolf Gold when they are the same round. But Wolf has questionable/shitty quality so for many people wolf is not even an option because of it. Yet these same people will but the Privi because of the reported quality of it's line.

No company, or even individual is satisfied, even if in your opinion they are making "plenty of money". They always strive to do better.

Why should a company spend money to gain a good reputation and hence more/new customers? Your kidding right?

And buy the way, wolf does not sell any 5.56 so they have no "5.56mm contracts" to be picky about. It is all .223 and 99% of it is pure crap.
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 10:41:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Nicely done. You have demonstrated that Wolf generally goes somewhere close to where you point it and doesn't care whether it gets there through a 1:7 or 1:9 twist barrel. I assume that your dog is still in good health as well.

It would be interesting to see what sort of numbers that ammo chrono'd at. Some of the target impacts being far enough away from the rest of the bunch make it look like velocities weren't particularly consistent.

Again, great work.


Agreed - always great work by Molon.

Or a 1-8 twist barrel... In June, I shot some Wolf Black Box 55gr FMJ through my Wilson 1-8 20" non free float from a bench, bagged front and back, 5x scope, out to 50 yards....

3025
3033
2970
3032
3032
Ave = 3018
Es = 63
Sd = 27
Ad = 19

Center to Center (CTC) 5-round group was 1.680". I know five rounds is a small sample, but I was surprised at the velocity consistency of the Wolf 55s.

I was working up a load for 55gr Hornady V-Maxs (same day/gun/bench set-up), 23.4gr H322 averaged 2919 and went into a 0.975" group at 50 yards. This load and four other were fired before I gave the Wolf a "shot".

Link Posted: 8/3/2010 11:05:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2010 11:23:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:
All of those shots were done using a scope? What should I expect using iron / red dot / Prismatic?

Thanks!


That depends entirely on the shooter. Using a rest, a quality rifle, and a high-magnification scope is (short of a bolted-down test barrel) probably the best way to get an "objective" test of how accurate the ammo is. Once you start talking about using irons or red dots, you're introducing a lot more shooter-induced variables.


That makes a lot of sense, Eric. If I don't go out with my buds tonight (), I'll go to the range with my Olympic Arms and Colt and shoot some Wolf using irons and see how it would do.

Link Posted: 8/3/2010 11:28:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1IV:
It will work.


You say that now. Once you start cranking out 55gn pills from the blue pill press you will grow to expect groups half that size.


Molon - any chance in hell that you plan on doing fragmentation tests? I know gel may not be realistic, but understanding the ability of fragmentation COMBINED with shot placement would be interesting.
Link Posted: 8/4/2010 7:43:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Because being known for a good product is much better marketing strategy. Word of mouth is a big sales diving force. If your known for a good product people buy on name alone. Many more people will buy the Privi Partisan 75gr match than they will the Wolf Gold when they are the same round. But Wolf has questionable/shitty quality so for many people wolf is not even an option because of it. Yet these same people will but the Privi because of the reported quality of it's line.

No company, or even individual is satisfied, even if in your opinion they are making "plenty of money". They always strive to do better.

Why should a company spend money to gain a good reputation and hence more/new customers? Your kidding right?

And buy the way, wolf does not sell any 5.56 so they have no "5.56mm contracts" to be picky about. It is all .223 and 99% of it is pure crap.
Bottom line is always the biggest factor, and apparently it's more problematic for Wolf to get good .223 made for their contracts than it is to field complaints. In other words, they perceive the return on finding sources of better steel cased .223 insufficient to justify the effort. Could be due to the way the ammunition market works today, could be due to the way ammunition manufacturing works today. Either way, they don't seem to be in a hurry to find better, cheap .223 sources.

Link Posted: 8/4/2010 8:09:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By marko16:
I'll second the "where is the 62 in the 1/7?"


Why? Because you think there'd be a significant difference or because you're just being picky?


It will be the same. Crappy 55 grain or 62 will still be - 'er - well, crappy.
Link Posted: 8/4/2010 11:10:34 AM EDT
So, it looks to me that this is ammo good for whacking rotten veggies and fruit at close to moderate distances, and you can afford to do it all day long.

I don't know why there is so much hate for this stuff around here. You don't need to burn 75c./rd. ammo to plink at your local, short range.

Everything has its use, and I am glad someone finally really tested what the use of Wolf is, and (surprise, surprise) it is what we all expected it to be.

That said, I'm sure if the shooting starts (pray it won't) we would all happily burn all the Wolf we could get our hands on, and the point would be purely academic.
Link Posted: 8/4/2010 1:40:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
The definitive post on Wolf accuracy. I marked it as "do not archive" and will add a link to this post to the ComBloc Ammo FAQ.

Thanks for your work once again, Molon.


Although it is interesting, I think the term 'Definitive' would be withheld until there is a double blind test completed.

Expectations of accuracy and operator knowledge of the ammo fired would still be a factor.

I could repeat the same test with any ammo and get the 'expected' results.

TRG




Yeah you are the only other person I have seen bring this point up.
I have seen this happen many times in the last 15 years


guys will use their handload and it will shoot great. or their gun. etc etc. but hand them a load/gun they dont care about or "think" will shoot bad, and it will.

hand it to an equal shooter who does not care and it will produce outstanding results.
I am a firm believer ownership, or creator of the weapon or ammo adn how much they believe it will or wont perform is a considerable factor
Link Posted: 8/4/2010 1:42:55 PM EDT
Molon,
DO you happen to have any of the older laquer (sp?) case wolf around? I would be curious to know how the differnt case coating effected things. I know it doesnt really matter considering its all shit ammo. But I am curious. And I never saw the old stuff cause a FTF or any problem in a high quality gun
Link Posted: 8/4/2010 2:02:53 PM EDT
ah, the spectre of testing bias is now raised. I feel the better way to question a test result readily duplicated, at least in part, is to "observe and report." IMO, that is what Molon does and the chips fall where the chips fall and if someone else proves he is wrong, that is what scientific examination is about. I feel that Molon fully appreciates that Wolf (or.....)is cheap ammo for blasting. What he has establised is that in his guns, the accuracy is likely to be bad, really bad, with distance. It is information that could be a significant factor in choice of ammo depending on the comsumer's purpose.
Link Posted: 8/5/2010 6:03:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Shawnmt6601:
Molon,
DO you happen to have any of the older laquer (sp?) case wolf around?



Negative.

Link Posted: 8/5/2010 10:01:35 PM EDT
Has anyone tested the Tula ammo? I have here on the forums that they actually make/produce the 55 grain Wolf BB ammo? If this correct I would like to see some testing on this ammo. Several people say that it is pretty bad ammo(Like killing your rifle bad) I wonder if it is just hype , or has actually happened.
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 1:41:44 AM EDT
I don't have any photos but these results mirror my much less scientific testing. Any Wolf ammo I've shot will do at best 12" 10 round groups at 200 yards using an iron sighted Bushmaster A2 (20" 1:9) from a rest.

Using 55 gr CorBon FMJ at 200 yards I will get consistent 6" - 8" groups.

Any of the naysayers calling for double blind tests are welcome to purchase 6 rifles and enough ammo to have 6 shooters duplicate these tests with each ammo/rifle combo. Be sure to not tell them what ammo they're shooting to avoid any bias on their part from affecting the results. It should be a piece of cake...

Or you could just thank Molon for doing more than any 10 of us do to put hard data up for examination.
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 7:55:40 PM EDT
Nice write-up Molon. The next time I go to the rifle range, I'm going to try 10-shot groups out of my SAR-2 5.45x39 with Wolf, Barnual (made in 2002) and then Silver Bear (also made by Barnual) ammo. I'm thinking that the groups will be the same or worse than yours due to the Romanian barrel. I can hit squirrel size targets with ease at 100 yards though, which is really all the gun was meant to do.
Link Posted: 8/7/2010 10:46:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By themao:
Nice write-up Molon. The next time I go to the rifle range, I'm going to try 10-shot groups out of my SAR-2 5.45x39 with Wolf, Barnual (made in 2002) and then Silver Bear (also made by Barnual) ammo. I'm thinking that the groups will be the same or worse than yours due to the Romanian barrel. I can hit squirrel size targets with ease at 100 yards though, which is really all the gun was meant to do.


Betcha both Barnaul-made types outperform the Wolf. Barnaul's 5.56/.223 stuff has been extremely consistent for me-and the pistol ammo they make has been as well.
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 12:55:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2010 12:57:07 AM EDT by Gunwritr]
The one thing I have noticed over the last ten years or so of using Wolf during firearm tests is accuracy can change from lot to lot.

I test just about every 5.56 gun that comes in the door with Wolf, four 5 shot groups at 100 yards. And the average is around 3.5 inches
with their 55 and 62 grain load. The 75 grain load in my experience tends to shoot better. I have seen some lots shoot quite a bit better.
I had three cases tucked away from an early lot that shot quite well and gave it to some students at rifle class that needed it.
They were able to make consistent hits on LaRues at 600 yards with it.

But day in day out my results with the 55 and 62 grain Black Box loads are similar to Molons.

Just keep in mind if the load remains consistent, 4 MOA will get you hits on a 20 inch target at 500 yards..........
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 1:17:02 PM EDT
Good info, thanks.
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 1:46:04 PM EDT
Nice job good write up. I came up with just about the results. Wolf is good for pinking blasting ammo not match grade.
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 7:04:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lomshek:


Any of the naysayers calling for double blind tests are welcome to purchase 6 rifles and enough ammo to have 6 shooters duplicate these tests with each ammo/rifle combo. Be sure to not tell them what ammo they're shooting to avoid any bias on their part from affecting the results.


As their pounding a case out of the chamber with their cleaning rod they might start to suspect what ammo they're shooting.

Thanks for the test Molon

Link Posted: 8/8/2010 7:52:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2010 7:54:07 PM EDT by Molon]
Originally Posted By NE223:
Originally Posted By Lomshek:


Any of the naysayers calling for double blind tests are welcome to purchase 6 rifles and enough ammo to have 6 shooters duplicate these tests with each ammo/rifle combo. Be sure to not tell them what ammo they're shooting to avoid any bias on their part from affecting the results.


As their pounding a case out of the chamber with their cleaning rod they might start to suspect what ammo they're shooting.








Director of Testing, “Shooter Number One, here is your rifle and ammunition.”

Director of Testing, “Shooter Number Two, here is your rifle and ammunition.”

Director of Testing, “Shooter Number Three, here is your rifle, your ammunition and a cleaning rod.”

Shooter Number One, “Hey, why didn’t I get a cleaning rod?”

Director of Testing, “You won’t be needing one.”





Link Posted: 8/8/2010 8:07:17 PM EDT
Tag for future use to make the Wolf fanboys STFU
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 10:15:12 PM EDT
So Molon will you be doing the same for silver bear? If you are would it be possible to compare it against brown and gold bear? If you are doing the test please use the 62gr HP as that seems to be the most popular
Link Posted: 8/10/2010 2:26:59 AM EDT
Thanks for the write up. I can't wait until I get to post this as a link in a thread about they guy who can get sub MOA out of his stag with wolf.
Link Posted: 8/11/2010 11:50:23 AM EDT
Ok... so i have shot around 100 rounds of the wolf... what i have found out is that it is pretty accurate for non brass match ammo, granted this was at 150yds with a non magnified EOTech 512....
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p56/outlawcustomz13/ar15com/IMG_1932.jpg

However that 5 round string took me around 10 min. to do the fact is that 2 of the 5 rounds got jammed in my rifle due to the soft metel lip getting ripped off by my extractor.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p56/outlawcustomz13/ar15com/IMG_1930.jpg

This has happened to i think around 15 of the 100 rounds that i bought. I do like the the fact that it is steel and since i am a brass hog, i gotta find every piece before i leave the range for the day lol
My thoughts are although decent accuracy and a cheap price... Unless you like taking time out of your shooting fun for the day to break down your rifle and get the cleaning rod out to get a casing out of the gun every few rounds... i would recomend looking for a good price on some good brass rounds. I personally like the PMC Bronze. It is actually more accurate in my rifle and around here i can get it at $5.75 a box, Not much more that the crap steel ammo.
Anyway take it for what its worth and thanks for listening to my rant
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 1:27:38 PM EDT
So how does this stuff chrono. Do you measure it in feet per second or with a calender?
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 3:00:14 PM EDT
Good job Molon... Thanks for doing this... and I like your dog.....
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 3:04:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2010 3:06:05 PM EDT by CyberIntel]
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
The one thing I have noticed over the last ten years or so of using Wolf during firearm tests is accuracy can change from lot to lot.

I test just about every 5.56 gun that comes in the door with Wolf, four 5 shot groups at 100 yards. And the average is around 3.5 inches
with their 55 and 62 grain load. The 75 grain load in my experience tends to shoot better. I have seen some lots shoot quite a bit better.
I had three cases tucked away from an early lot that shot quite well and gave it to some students at rifle class that needed it.
They were able to make consistent hits on LaRues at 600 yards with it.

But day in day out my results with the 55 and 62 grain Black Box loads are similar to Molons.

Just keep in mind if the load remains consistent, 4 MOA will get you hits on a 20 inch target at 500 yards..........


Good info. Only thing is that the highlighted section is only true with a perfect hold on that 20 inch target at 500 yards.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 6:27:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MRW:
Black box wolf is one thing, but the cammo box Military Classic is another. I've "heard" the cammo box is better ammo, produced at a different plant.

I'd like to see a cammo box test.

And I've already come to the conclusion that black box wolf is junk, but it works well for a 50 yard carbine course/action match


http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=500149
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 8:00:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BikerBoi13:
Ok... so i have shot around 100 rounds of the wolf... what i have found out is that it is pretty accurate for non brass match ammo, granted this was at 150yds with a non magnified EOTech 512....
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p56/outlawcustomz13/ar15com/IMG_1932.jpg

However that 5 round string took me around 10 min. to do the fact is that 2 of the 5 rounds got jammed in my rifle due to the soft metel lip getting ripped off by my extractor.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p56/outlawcustomz13/ar15com/IMG_1930.jpg

This has happened to i think around 15 of the 100 rounds that i bought. I do like the the fact that it is steel and since i am a brass hog, i gotta find every piece before i leave the range for the day lol
My thoughts are although decent accuracy and a cheap price... Unless you like taking time out of your shooting fun for the day to break down your rifle and get the cleaning rod out to get a casing out of the gun every few rounds... i would recomend looking for a good price on some good brass rounds. I personally like the PMC Bronze. It is actually more accurate in my rifle and around here i can get it at $5.75 a box, Not much more that the crap steel ammo.
Anyway take it for what its worth and thanks for listening to my rant


What extractor, extractor insert, and extractor spring do you have?
Link Posted: 8/14/2010 9:16:05 PM EDT
After tapping out the 3rd stuck case from 2 different rifles, I gave the remaining 600 rounds of Wolf ammo to 2 of my co workers.

They are probably still cursing my name.
Link Posted: 8/14/2010 9:28:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2010 12:42:01 AM EDT
Thanks for the great test Molon!
Link Posted: 8/18/2010 12:13:45 PM EDT
Your contributions to the community are greatly appreciated Molon.
Link Posted: 8/18/2010 1:38:42 PM EDT
Has ballistic gelatin tests ever been done on Wolf type ammo?
Link Posted: 8/18/2010 4:06:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2010 4:12:05 PM EDT
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