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Great info as usual!
Wouldnt it be more fair to check the SAAMI loads using SAAMI spec .223 chambers and not a 5.56 NATO chamber since every load except the mk262 is advertised as SAAMI spec? Strangely enough the buffalo bore is advertised as .223 pressured as well. Now the question is did they sacrifice accuracy to gain speed. Can't wait for your accuracy reports. |
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Could you copy/paste this into the ORM ammo review thread? Thanks.
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i have read a lot and have seen articles w/ nato barrels shooting 1/2 - 3/4 moa w/ 10rnds groups and the wyld chamber doing about the same. just out of curiosity, why are there 2 standards in this day and age w/ the strength available to any gunmaker? why doesn't everyone just adopt the 5.56 chamber as it seems to be an extremely accurate setup? or, are there guns capable of 1/4 moa and at that level you need the a slightly tighter chamber? one would think we are getting at theoretical limits here and that atmospheric conditions would come into play more than the chamber, but again, i can't shoot moa and don't reload, so i am just asking.
as always molon, your info/report is a pleasure to read. lastly, would the difference between a saami spec chamber and nato chamber make up for the difference in the ammo that is listed @ XXXX from a 20" brl? |
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lastly, would the difference between a saami spec chamber and nato chamber make up for the difference in the ammo that is listed @ XXXX from a 20" brl? Possibly, but I doubt it. The difference between COR-BON's claim of 2800 FPS from a 20" barrel and the actual velocity that I obtained of 2674 FPS is 126 FPS. I don't think that you are going to see a boost of 126 FPS simply by changing to a SAAMI chamber (and staying within the SAMMI pressure limits.) If someone wants to prove me wrong, all they'll have to do is get two identical 20" barrel blanks and have one chambered for a 223 Remington SAAMI chamber and the other chambered for a 5.56mm NATO chamber and then chronograph the COR-BON load from each barrel. I think the overwhelming majority of the difference in velocities we are seeing is due to the extra four inches of barrel on the 24” test barrels. As an example, Hornady lists the velocity of their 75 grain TAP FPD as 2790 FPS (only 10 FPS different than COR-BONS's claim of 2800 FPS.) When fired from one of my 20” Colt barrels with a NATO chamber that load had a muzzle velocity of 2688 FPS, for a difference of 102 FPS less than the claimed velocity. When that same lot of 75 grain TAP FPD was fired from my AR-15 with a 24” Krieger barrel (with a 5.56mm Match chamber) it had a muzzle velocity of 2785 FPS, for a difference of only 5 FPS less than the claimed velocity. |
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Could you copy/paste this into the ORM ammo review thread? Thanks. OTM? Will do. |
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I predict a run on Buffalo Bore ammo. Nice writeup, thanks. excellent real world write up molon i'll take the cor bon anyday |
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I predict a run on Buffalo Bore ammo. Nice writeup, thanks. At prices tickling $1.50/round I doubt there will be much of a "run". At least not from me! |
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Did you see any signs of primers backing out on the Buffalo Bore load, given that it's so hot and the primers aren't crimped? Were there any other pressure signs with that load?
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Did you see any signs of primers backing out on the Buffalo Bore load, given that it's so hot and the primers aren't crimped? Were there any other pressure signs with that load? Ammo companies have "non-canister grade" powders available to them that do some absolutely incredible things. |
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Did you see any signs of primers backing out on the Buffalo Bore load, given that it's so hot and the primers aren't crimped? Were there any other pressure signs with that load? The fired primers were as flat as my date to the 7th grade dance, but none were blown, leaking or pierced nor where there any ejector or extractor marks on the case heads. It's an Internet myth that crimped primers somehow magically contain higher mil-spec pressures that non-crimped primers supposedly can't. I've used once-fired Lake City brass with non-crimped primers to load mil-spec rounds for an additional three firings in a row. Using a Mitutoyo blade micrometer that measures to 0.00005", I measured the case head expansion of the same 10 cases after each of the three firings. The average case head expansion after each of the three firings was only 0.0003" and there were no blown, leaking or pierced primers. |
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Thanks for the nice write-up..as usual.
I was surprised the most by the Cor-Bon results. You results were substantially different from their advertized claim. So ....any accuracy surprises? |
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So ....any accuracy surprises? To be determined later this summer. |
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Molon, does the Buffalo Bore projectile have a cannelure? Any idea how the terminal performance of the BB will compare to MK262, particularly if it lacks a cannelure?
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Thanks for all this info. I'm getting ready to have my brother load me up some 77g SMKs and this info will come in handy.
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Awesome. Thanks for posting this. VERY informative thread. +1! Your work and info is always very much appreciated Molon. |
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Wow, the BB 77gr is nasty stuff. I hope it's as accurate as it is hot...
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Molon,
FYI, I just got back from my Memorial Day weekend at Camp Pendleton with my favorite Marines and headed directly to the stash checking out my 5 boxes of Cor-Bon for that Lapua brass. No luck, it comes with Winchester Brass, not Lapua? The box is marked the same as your picture. Don’t see a lot # on the box. The head stamp is Winchester 223 REM. Box is 223 REM 77gr HPBT. Same as you photo...... |
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Apparently CorBon is using whatever brass they can lay their hands on, so the headstamp will vary from lot to lot. All mine are Lapua, but others have chimed in with different brass.
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the lot# stamped on the inside of the 3 boxes i have is 20080301
definitely lapua match brass |
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Molon, FYI, I just got back from my Memorial Day weekend at Camp Pendleton with my favorite Marines and headed directly to the stash checking out my 5 boxes of Cor-Bon for that Lapua brass. No luck, it comes with Winchester Brass, not Lapua? The box is marked the same as your picture. Don’t see a lot # on the box. The head stamp is Winchester 223 REM. Box is 223 REM 77gr HPBT. Same as you photo...... I just checked my 20+ boxes of Cor-Bon 77-gr and 69-gr SMK I bought late last year from AmmoToGo. All boxes have the lapua brass. Molon- Thanks again for a great post and thorough, as usual. Let us know when you do the accuracy test on these. Wonder when you will get to try the Prvi 69-gr OTM and Cor-Bon 69-gr SMK? |
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Your guys lucked out, or I unlucked out.
The stamp on the inside of the box is 20080501. |
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Molon, FYI, I just got back from my Memorial Day weekend at Camp Pendleton with my favorite Marines and headed directly to the stash checking out my 5 boxes of Cor-Bon for that Lapua brass. No luck, it comes with Winchester Brass, not Lapua? The box is marked the same as your picture. Don’t see a lot # on the box. The head stamp is Winchester 223 REM. Box is 223 REM 77gr HPBT. Same as you photo...... I just checked my 20+ boxes of Cor-Bon 77-gr and 69-gr SMK I bought late last year from AmmoToGo. All boxes have the lapua brass. Molon- Thanks again for a great post and thorough, as usual. Let us know when you do the accuracy test on these. Wonder when you will get to try the Prvi 69-gr OTM and Cor-Bon 69-gr SMK? 20 boxes........................damn i hate you you dont reload do you..........................be glad to take that crappy lapua brass off your hands after your done shooting. |
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Molon-
You are 'da MAN!!! Thanks for your chrono data. Keep us posted on the accuracy values of these when you have the chance to do your thing. Thanks again, great stuff! |
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Molon, does the Buffalo Bore projectile have a cannelure? Any idea how the terminal performance of the BB will compare to MK262, particularly if it lacks a cannelure? The 77 grain SMK used in the Buffalo Bore load does not have a cannelure. However, the cannelure on the 77 grain SMK used in MK262 is very shallow compared to a typical military cannelure. I have not seen any terminal ballistic tests of the Buffalo Bore load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/r6rayohgeh.jpg http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/tactical/tactical-test.html |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Molon, does the Buffalo Bore projectile have a cannelure? Any idea how the terminal performance of the BB will compare to MK262, particularly if it lacks a cannelure? The 77 grain SMK used in the Buffalo Bore load does not have a cannelure. However, the cannelure on the 77 grain SMK used in MK262 is very shallow compared to a typical military cannelure. I have not seen any terminal ballistic tests of the Buffalo Bore load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/r6rayohgeh.jpg http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/tactical/tactical-heavy.jpg http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/tactical/tactical-test.html maybe it is because i am on a lot of pain/migraine meds today, but the left side axis info doesn't make sense to me. ~5-13" diameter cavity that is ~7-9 1/2" deep? are there any pics of the gel? |
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Molon, does the Buffalo Bore projectile have a cannelure? Any idea how the terminal performance of the BB will compare to MK262, particularly if it lacks a cannelure? The 77 grain SMK used in the Buffalo Bore load does not have a cannelure. However, the cannelure on the 77 grain SMK used in MK262 is very shallow compared to a typical military cannelure. I have not seen any terminal ballistic tests of the Buffalo Bore load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/r6rayohgeh.jpg http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/tactical/tactical-heavy.jpg http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/tactical/tactical-test.html maybe it is because i am on a lot of pain/migraine meds today, but the left side axis info doesn't make sense to me. ~5-13" diameter cavity that is ~7-9 1/2" deep? are there any pics of the gel? I agree the y-axis scale is hard to discern, it looks like the widest cavity is a bit over 50mm ~2" Also if you look at the testing data, the barrels used were 11.5" hence the reduced velocity and penetration. Apparently this was done to replicate impact velocities from a shot taken from 100m with a 14.5" or 200m with a 20" barrel |
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Molon, does the Buffalo Bore projectile have a cannelure? Any idea how the terminal performance of the BB will compare to MK262, particularly if it lacks a cannelure? The 77 grain SMK used in the Buffalo Bore load does not have a cannelure. However, the cannelure on the 77 grain SMK used in MK262 is very shallow compared to a typical military cannelure. I have not seen any terminal ballistic tests of the Buffalo Bore load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/r6rayohgeh.jpg http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/tactical/tactical-heavy.jpg http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/tactical/tactical-test.html maybe it is because i am on a lot of pain/migraine meds today, but the left side axis info doesn't make sense to me. ~5-13" diameter cavity that is ~7-9 1/2" deep? are there any pics of the gel? There was no ballistic gelatin involved in those tests. They used "wetpacks" for the test media, which does not lend much scientific credibility to the results. |
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Molon, does the Buffalo Bore projectile have a cannelure? Any idea how the terminal performance of the BB will compare to MK262, particularly if it lacks a cannelure? The 77 grain SMK used in the Buffalo Bore load does not have a cannelure. However, the cannelure on the 77 grain SMK used in MK262 is very shallow compared to a typical military cannelure. I have not seen any terminal ballistic tests of the Buffalo Bore load. http://www.box.net/shared/static/r6rayohgeh.jpg The cannelure or lack there of is not a significant factor for SMK bullet's terminal performance. Nor is it a factor for the 75 grain Hornady OTM bullets. If you are familiar with other 75 and 77 grain OTM tests you will be familiar with what any other loading will do at similar velocities. MK262 and the BB will be indistiguishable. |
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Your guys lucked out, or I unlucked out. The stamp on the inside of the box is 20080501. there is an ad on ee for some corbon w/lapua brass kind of pricey. last i paid for the same ammo was .75 per round shipped. just bought some on ee with winhester brass for .66 shipped per round not bad i cant reload it using new comps for that except maybe the winchester. |
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lastly, would the difference between a saami spec chamber and nato chamber make up for the difference in the ammo that is listed @ XXXX from a 20" brl? I doubt it. The difference between COR-BON's claim of 2800 FPS from a 20" barrel and the actual velocity that I obtained of 2674 FPS is 126 FPS. I don't think that you are going to see a boost of 126 FPS simply by changing to a SAAMI chamber. If someone wants to prove me wrong, all they'll have to do is get two identical 20" barrel blanks and have one chambered for a 223 Remington SAAMI chamber and the other chambered for a 5.56mm NATO chamber and then chronograph the COR-BON load from each barrel. I think the overwhelming majority of the difference in velocities we are seeing is due to the extra four inches of barrel on the 24” test barrels. As an example, Hornady lists the velocity of their 75 grain TAP FPD as 2790 FPS (only 10 FPS different than COR-BONS's claim of 2800 FPS.) When fired from one of my 20” Colt barrels with a NATO chamber that load had a muzzle velocity of 2688 FPS, for a difference of 102 FPS less than the claimed velocity. When that same lot of 75 grain TAP FPD was fired from my AR-15 with a 24” Krieger barrel (with a 5.56mm Match chamber) it had a muzzle velocity of 2785 FPS, for a difference of only 5 FPS less than the claimed velocity. I chronographed the COR-BON 77 grain load from my 24" Krieger barreled AR-15. (AR-15s can loose 20 FPS of velocity due to the gas system.) The muzzle velocity was 2757 FPS. |
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I am a bit puzzled. I've got some Black Hills "red box" here that I ordered a month or two ago (75gr not 77 MatchKing) and it's got the cannelure, sealed primer, and case mouth crimp (not positive on the primer crimp). Have they changed things up since you ran your test? |
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I am a bit puzzled. I've got some Black Hills "red box" here that I ordered a month or two ago (75gr not 77 MatchKing) and it's got the cannelure, sealed primer, and case mouth crimp (not positive on the primer crimp). Have they changed things up since you ran your test? Two different loads. This thread concerns the 77 grain SMK load, not the 75 grain Hornady BTHP load. There's plenty of information on the 75 grain load in my TAP thread. |
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I am a bit puzzled. I've got some Black Hills "red box" here that I ordered a month or two ago (75gr not 77 MatchKing) and it's got the cannelure, sealed primer, and case mouth crimp (not positive on the primer crimp). Have they changed things up since you ran your test? Two different loads. This thread concerns the 77 grain SMK load, not the 75 grain Hornady BTHP load. There's plenty of information on the 75 grain load in my TAP thread. I understand they're different loads. I was simply puzzled by the fact that the Red Box line I have appears to have the features of the 5.56 line you mention in your chart as missing in the Red Box line. |
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I wonder if Buffalo Bore is using a powder available to us, and if so which one?
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Excellent work! This is why I load my own and chrono. My pet load runs a 69 @ avg 2810 on 20" and is deadly accurate.
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humm, i have my 77 grain MK running 2625 fps with a 14.5 incher. I guess that yould be around 2800 fps using a 20 incher.
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I predict a run on Buffalo Bore ammo. At $29/20, maybe not. It comes out to almost $1,500/1000. |
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So ....any accuracy surprises? To be determined later this summer. so, is your other name ATT and are you rolling out iPhone MMS? |
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So ....any accuracy surprises? To be determined later this summer. so, is your other name ATT and are you rolling out iPhone MMS? No, but "The List" just keeps getting longer and longer. |
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