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Quoted: Absolutely Watch this one at 0.25x speed. You can definitely see the slide coming back. You can also hear the shot at the same time. I watched it earlier and thought it was so. After watching it at .25x, it's clear. And the agent is also clearly holding the gun way down on the grip, below the trigger guard.
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Quoted: The entire "anti-ICE" protest shit and feigned outrage by democrats is one giant Psyop. Even the MSM is unwittingly participating by virtue of the fact that they just regurgitate what they're told and don't investigate anything. REAL investigative journalist like Nick Shirley and James Okeef are threatend with death. Prove me wrong. You can remove un from unwittingly and you will be more right. |
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Quoted: I've been encouraging our local range to ban P320s from matches and potentially entirely from the premises This may push them over the line Sorry SIG, but you made a shitty, dangerous product Thanks for encouraging me to dig out my P320 for the match this Saturday. |
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IDK, ... after watching several of these enhanced videos for the umpteenth time, it looks like either the gun "went off" in the BP officer's hand as he was moving back from the deaded guy (i.e., Sig 320-style "spontaneous" discharge) or perhaps his finger hit the trigger inadvertently as he was moving away, causing the discharge. Either way, now I'm wondering if that sound of the gun firing created a mistaken belief in the shooting officer's mind that a gunshot had been fired by the legally-armed deaded guy, not realizing it was the Sig ND-ing in the hand of a fellow officer (or even caused by him). If so, then the legal question regarding this particular officer's use of deadly force becomes whether that mistake was objectively reasonable. IOW, whether an objectively reasonable officer, standing in that same position (same shoes) as the shooting officer, could have reasonably thought he was being fired at? Typically, in federal Sec. 1983 lawsuits against cops for improper DF, the question of "reasonable but mistaken belief" is one for the jury to decide, which here would mean a jury composed of Minnesota residents. |
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Quoted: IDK, ... after watching several of these enhanced videos for the umpteenth time, it looks like either the gun "went off" in the BP officer's hand as he was moving back from the deaded guy (i.e., Sig 320-style "spontaneous" discharge) or perhaps his finger hit the trigger inadvertently as he was moving away, causing the discharge. Either way, now I'm wondering if that sound of the gun firing created a mistaken belief in the shooting officer's mind that a gunshot had been fired by the legally-armed deaded guy, not realizing that it was the Sig ND-ing in the hand of a fellow officer (or even caused by him). If so, then the legal question regarding this particular officer's use of deadly force becomes whether that mistake was objectively reasonable. IOW, whether an objectively reasonable officer, standing in that same position (same shoes) as the shooting officer, would've reasonable thought he was being fired at? Typically, in federal Sec. 1983 lawsuits against cops for improper DF, the question of "reasonable but mistaken belief" is one for the jury to decide, which here would mean a jury composed of Minnesota residents. There should be a spent casing and hole in the street if that's what happened. Seems like it would be easy to determine. |
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Quoted: If true, I don't see how it makes things any better for the agents on scene, let alone upper management at BP/DHS. He was reaching for where his pistol had been, and a gun shot happened. I’m not saying it absolves them, but I certainly can see why LEOs would shoot in that situation. |
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Quoted: So, the dead guys first mistake was buying a sig.....  Might not have been his first mistake, but it was certainly one of his last mistakes. Also, I subscribe to the curse of the 320 as well. Dude was following the ICE block playbook, resisted while being detained, and tolerance stacking & Mr. Murphy took over from there. |
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OP, I firmly believe the video you posted decodes precisely what happened. It's clear as day to me. Furthermore, assuming the deceased was a gun guy, which seems likely, I cannot fathom WHY he would continue to carry that piece-of-shit pistol. Now there could have been an ND caused by that agent's cold-weather glove as he secured Pretti's gun and turned away. This is why I don't wear gloves on the range, or try to reholster fast after drawing from concealment. |
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Quoted: Pay attention kids with your Glocks and fancy plastic striker fired pistols. If dead guy carried a good 'ol 1911 like God intended, he'd be alive today. Ironically, 1911’s will absolutely go off if dropped on concrete. Glocks go off if you have a really crappy holster and put your finger on the trigger and squeeze. Sigs go off if you shake them, apparently |
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Quoted: Maybe. But, no, there's no "clearly" in the blacks. Not with a 240p manipulation of a 30fps video that was DCT in x,y and further compressed in t before even written to file, let alone all of the other steps to get it to the X video. Quoted: Quoted: Absolutely Watch this one at 0.25x speed. You can definitely see the slide coming back. You can also hear the shot at the same time. I watched it earlier and thought it was so. After watching it at .25x, it's clear. And the agent is also clearly holding the gun way down on the grip, below the trigger guard.
People seeing what they want to see. Situation normal. |
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Quoted: With the light trigger all it would take is some of the bulky glove (needed in -10 F temps) to brush the side of the trigger while running. Quoted: Quoted: With winter gloves, it's very possible. With the light trigger all it would take is some of the bulky glove (needed in -10 F temps) to brush the side of the trigger while running. Bulky glove, or not, you are going to know if you've ND'd a firearm you are holding in your hand, and that would, ostensibly, be a fairly prominent item in the AAR. No ordinary, county-level LE agency would have top management making statements as DHS has been making following this incident. To say that Noem is Municipal Grade, is an insult to the tens of thousands of municipal grade personnel who would be acting in a more measured, professional manner. |
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Quoted: I'm gonna say not a Sigcident. If that gun was fired, Trump, Bondi, Noem, and the others would have been quick to point out that it was fired. The fact that they never said dead nurse fired a shot it telling. Lol, you funny, I will keep you off ignore for a while. |
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Quoted: He was reaching for where his pistol had been, and a gun shot happened. I’m not saying it absolves them, but I certainly can see why LEOs would shoot in that situation. If a group of balaclava-clad officers from any agency were doing that to me, I'd have probably reached myself out of simply reflex when I felt my gun being taken. Some reactions are just instinctive and I believe that was what we were witnessing. |
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Quoted: Could have been disarming agent had his finger on the bang switch also.  Quoted: Could have been disarming agent had his finger on the bang switch also. Quoted: With winter gloves, it's very possible. Alternate suggestion. He may have squeezed the other side of the trigger with his gloved thumb when he grasped it. The Sig design does not have a trigger safety - unlike every other striker fired trigger. As a result any movement on the side pushing the trigger backwards can and will move the trigger sufficiently to fire it. If the agent with those thick winter gloves on grasped the pistol with his fingers low below the trigger guard, but his thumb sitting higher (human anatomy 101) on the other side may well have pushed the Sig trigger back just enough to AD. The integral trigger safety on the M&P, Glock, XD/XDM, Walther, Canik & other striker fired pistols can not move backwards without a finger centered in / on the trigger... But the non-trigger safety Sig 320... Bigger_Hammer 
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1911 Owners: "Two World Wars!!" SIG: Hold my Zima. |
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Quoted: OP, I firmly believe the video you posted decodes precisely what happened. It's clear as day to me. Furthermore, assuming the deceased was a gun guy, which seems likely, I cannot fathom WHY he would continue to carry that piece-of-shit pistol. Now there could have been an ND caused by that agent's cold-weather glove as he secured Pretti's gun and turned away. This is why I don't wear gloves on the range, or try to reholster fast after drawing from concealment. Well a lot of people were dumping 320s cheap. Maybe Pretti was one of the buyers. |
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Quoted: Ironically, 1911's will absolutely go off if dropped on concrete. Glocks go off if you have a really crappy holster and put your finger on the trigger and squeeze. Sigs go off if you shake them, apparently |
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Quoted: lol no we would know by now, .gov would have absolutely said something All we have is the commentary of a public servant that works from home in DC. He's not even in DHS, though.  https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/POTUS-is-talking-about-Sigcidents-now-/5-2831399/? |
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Quoted: Alternate suggestion. He may have squeezed the other side of the trigger with his gloved thumb when he grasped it. The Sig design does not have a trigger safety - unlike every other striker fired trigger. As a result any movement on the side pushing the trigger backwards can and will move the trigger sufficiently to fire it. If the agent with those thick winter gloves on grasped the pistol with his fingers low below the trigger guard, but his thumb sitting higher (human anatomy 101) on the other side may well have pushed the Sig trigger back just enough to AD. The integral trigger safety on the M&P, Glock, XD/XDM, Walther, Canik & other striker fired pistols can not move backwards without a finger centered in / on the trigger... But the non-trigger safety Sig 320... Bigger_Hammer Quoted: Quoted: Could have been disarming agent had his finger on the bang switch also. Quoted: With winter gloves, it's very possible. Alternate suggestion. He may have squeezed the other side of the trigger with his gloved thumb when he grasped it. The Sig design does not have a trigger safety - unlike every other striker fired trigger. As a result any movement on the side pushing the trigger backwards can and will move the trigger sufficiently to fire it. If the agent with those thick winter gloves on grasped the pistol with his fingers low below the trigger guard, but his thumb sitting higher (human anatomy 101) on the other side may well have pushed the Sig trigger back just enough to AD. The integral trigger safety on the M&P, Glock, XD/XDM, Walther, Canik & other striker fired pistols can not move backwards without a finger centered in / on the trigger... But the non-trigger safety Sig 320... Bigger_Hammer |
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The gun probably never fired on its own the whole time Pretti owned it / used it. The gun didn't fire during the struggle. The gun fired (if it fired) when the agent's gloved hand was around the trigger / trigger guard area. The firearm isn't readily observed being bumped / jostled / jerked / the slide being torqued around / etc in the manner similar to the discharges created in the Sig uncommanded discharge recreation videos on YouTube. It's really hard to discount the significance of the gloves, if that firearm discharged. |
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Gosh, and it seemed like only a few months ago that many of you rushed in to "call it right now" when a 320 laying on a table discharged all by itself and killed an Air Force SF Airman. That was going to be the end of Sig, too. Oh, yea...right up until it turned out one of his buddies shot him in the chest, and generous portions of crow were served all around. Not that it taught any lessons, mind you, but then again it never does. |
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Quoted: OP, I firmly believe the video you posted decodes precisely what happened. It's clear as day to me. Furthermore, assuming the deceased was a gun guy, which seems likely, I cannot fathom WHY he would continue to carry that piece-of-shit pistol. Now there could have been an ND caused by that agent's cold-weather glove as he secured Pretti's gun and turned away. This is why I don't wear gloves on the range, or try to reholster fast after drawing from concealment. What happens with gloves and carabiner gates, caritool gates? That excess glove material loves to go places. |
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Quoted: I'm gonna say not a Sigcident. If that gun was fired, Trump, Bondi, Noem, and the others would have been quick to point out that it was fired. The fact that they never said dead nurse fired a shot it telling. Because the nurse didn’t fire a shot. His sig did. |
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Quoted: The sig never went off in the guys holster as he is struggling and getting man handled, but it happened to "just go off" when the ICE guy pulled it out and was walking away with it? Given the randomness with which sigs go off on their own it’s very likely. |
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Quoted: Gosh, and it seemed like only a few months ago that many of you rushed in to "call it right now" when a 320 laying on a table discharged all by itself and killed an Air Force SF Airman. That was going to be the end of Sig, too. Oh, yea...right up until it turned out one of his buddies shot him in the chest, and generous portions of crow were served all around. Not that it taught any lessons, mind you, but then again it never does. There were no videos of that event. Public opinion was heavily influenced by the assumption that the USAF isn't run by incompetent clowns. It turned out the USAF actually is run by incompetent clowns. Some of us learned from that and lowered our expectations accordingly. |