Friend visited by ATF tonight because of multiple rifle purchase - Page 3

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Friend visited by ATF tonight because of multiple rifle purchase (Page 3 of 10)

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:45:03 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

That does sound intimidating.
Thanks for clarifying.

A search warrant is an incredibly violating experience, as are most non-consensual encounters with LE.
I provide this advice for two reasons.
1) I don't want to see some honest person jammed up because they took something that sounded cool on the net to heart, and they found themselves in a game whose rules they don't understand.
2) as an investigator, I hate getting "false positives" from people because it wastes my time & their time.
Also, understand that just because I post a possible consequence does not always mean I agree with the action, I just think people should know that if you tell the police "come back with a warrant" they might just do that.
Getting a warrant (especially a search warrant) is not some Herculean effort.
And probable cause is probable cause whether it is razor thin or a slam dunk.

Oh, the irony.

Ha! While I appreciate this attempt to educate and help––that IS some funny irony

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:45:37 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

Bullshit. They're going to get a warrant based on what? You bought more than one gun and you didn't answer the door when they came to ask you about it?

Not even a judge in Tucson would sign off on that.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:46:32 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

I find that to be vaguely disquieting.

In the sense that it fills me with rage.

Fortunately, it has no basis in reality, and thus it only enrages me in the sense that other works of fiction describing injustice enrage me.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:46:33 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.

He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.

That is exactly what he said.

No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:48:12 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

So, basically what you're saying is to give the man what he wants or else he's going to come take it.

Not at all.
Just advising that sometimes it is better to go along to get along.
The ATF is seeking to identify persons who are circumventing our gun laws to arm Mexican cartels.
They are not on some anti-gun witch hunt - if you aren't what they are looking for, you drop back off the radar.

Good for them - maybe they should go talk to and surveil people who are selling guns to cartels, not everyone who buys more than one gun but displays no other indicia of illegal activity.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:48:22 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
you should have told the ATF agents you knew of a glory hole in the area, they would have left and went there instead

What makes you think they weren't already heading that way? I doubt they weren't aware of the ATF gloryhole.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:49:32 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.

He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.

That is exactly what he said.

No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.

Is refusing to talk to the police and refusing a voluntary search and buying multiple rifles enough for a warrant?

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:50:45 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

No, I did not.

If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.

In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.

When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.

Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"

And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.

That is incredibly sad, but not surprising considering the level of indoctrination and fear about guns. To think that a constitutionally protected item is easier to get a warrant for than an illegal substance

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:51:24 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

Fuck the ATF.

They aren't "law enforcement."

The enforce their own "rules" without congressional oversight.

"Rules" that haven't been made into law by the legislative branch of government.

Again, I say fuck the ATF.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:51:42 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

...

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.

Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.

If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.

Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

So, basically what you're saying is to give the man what he wants or else he's going to come take it.

Not at all.

Just advising that sometimes it is better to go along to get along.

The ATF is seeking to identify persons who are circumventing our gun laws to arm Mexican cartels.

They are not on some anti-gun witch hunt - if you aren't what they are looking for, you drop back off the radar.

Too fuckin' funny.

You really believe that load of horseshit, dontcha'?

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:52:14 PM EDT

[#11]

Doc and you wonder why so many ppl have such a disdain for the LEO community..... My dad did 25 yrs on the job in one of the worst cities in the state and his stance was dont be to rude but if you are certain you dont have to legally comply, dont but call your atty RFN so as to have him/ her start their own investigation into what is going on along with getting all documents related to their inquiry/ incident regarding you under a FOIA.

He has said that on several occasions this sudden attn from a "person of interest"'s legal counsel generally serves to make the investigators dot ALL of their I's and T's as they realize if they cock up the "person of interest" could suddenly become a Platiff in a very messy civil suit which then eats up their time on bullshit they dont want to be bothered with.

As where if they simply performed a little bit of back end investigative work they might discover that their "person of interest" was nothing more than a private citizen exercising their freedoms.

Now if the ATF or any other alphabet agency were to come knocking on my door I would direct them to my atty and have her tell me what to do, not rude, not smartass, just plainly "To prevent any possible issues I am invoking my 5th amendment rights and please direct any and all questions or documents to my atty, wait here and I will get you her business card off of my fridge"

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:52:49 PM EDT

[#12]

Do not excercise your right to avoid possible retaliation. Scary.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:53:10 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
shoulda told them to fuck off

eta: or tell them he aleady sold them to the other ATF agents that came to his door

Or you they're just pissed you did'nt buy from them!! The Holder Discount!

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:53:57 PM EDT

[#14]

"Ummm, not to be an ass, sir. I respect and appreciate the job you do to uphold the law, but, at this time I must refuse your request. I can assure you that I still have in my possession the firearms you are inquiring about. If this does not satisfy your request then return with a warrant and I will make sure to have my attorney present while you execute it. Have a great day!"

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:54:26 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.

He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.

That is exactly what he said.

No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.

First, if LE comes to talk to someone, they are already a suspect. I have never seen LE ever talk to someone to find out what time it is, what the weather is like, or who their favorite local sports team is.

Second, if silently following the law is incriminating, and we can now arrest people for potential future crimes, why don't we just imprison the entire population of the planet right now, just in case?

Finally, thanks for the information on how easily some LEO's can fabricate search warrants. If you'd like to present information to assist in the potential prosecution of these criminals, please do so at this time.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:55:23 PM EDT

[#16]

Can you imagine if he brought up F&F? "Uh, hey man, I'm not trying to cut in on your share, homey. I'm not profeshnal enuff."

Quoted:
Yes. Knocked on his door, announced that they were ATF (don't know how they were dressed) and asked about his purchase and whether he had any other guns.

ETA, they thanked him for his cooperation and went on their way with not so much as a peep otherwise.

Just disconcerting that they seem to think that you still can't legally sell them to someone else. These are the people that are 'in charge'
*facepalm*

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:55:42 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this.

For what? Legally buying firearms?

Not a good idea to invite people who make shit up as they go along into your house IMO.

I was referencing the part in red.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:56:09 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
you should have told the ATF agents you knew of a glory hole in the area, they would have left and went there instead

What makes you think they weren't already heading that way? I doubt they weren't aware of the ATF gloryhole.

I am installing a hole in my door now so if an ATF agent ever walks up I can just stick my boner through the hole and get my tax money worth.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:56:54 PM EDT

[#19]

Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:57:06 PM EDT

[#20]

This is why I usually don't bother in these threads.
Someone will want to second guess you to death and bring up all sorts of scenarios.
Here's what's up - I can't tell you every possible outcome of every scenario.
What I can tell you is that you don't want to be on anybody's radar...especially at the federal level.
Maybe you tell them to "fuck off" and they say "just a harmless asshole" and forget about you.
Or maybe you tickle their spidey sense and you become a target of an investigation.
If you want to be Rosa Parks, go nuts.
But don't get mad when the picture you spent so much time painting is used against you.
Sometimes if you haven't done anything wrong it is just easier to say "yep, I've still got those guns."

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:57:08 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

You make it sound like LE is seeking a confrontation with people, hm?

He's a cop. That's not a bad thing and what he does is vitally important, but do not take his advice about speaking with police.

This.

In a cop's mind, everyone is a suspect.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:57:22 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.

He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.

That is exactly what he said.

No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light. When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.

Fifth Amendment right

Fourth Amendment right

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:57:28 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
I might have showed them the WASRs to make them go away but he shouldn't have showed them anything else. And you probably want to show the rifles at the door rather then have them come in and see things they may not need to see.

For those of you that say lawyer up ? Is it really worth it ? And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant. Not worth the BS. I doubt they are really interested in him, if its all as you say just over buying a few rifles. Show the rifles, they go away and forget. You don't want them interested in you.

+1

IN THIS CASE...

I would show them at the door and avoid a $1K+ legal bill

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:58:19 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
you should have told the ATF agents you knew of a glory hole in the area, they would have left and went there instead

What makes you think they weren't already heading that way? I doubt they weren't aware of the ATF gloryhole.

I am installing a hole in my door now so if an ATF agent ever walks up I can just stick my boner through the hole and get my tax money worth.

I LOL'd

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:59:33 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

And when did exercising constitutionally guaranteed rights become being confrontational?

Domestic Enemies of the Constitution find the exercise of Constitutional Rights Wrong and confrontational .

a

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:59:46 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:01:50 PM EDT

[#27]

I'd probably just bring the rifles to my front door and show them to the JBT...er ATF, if they want to bitch about me bringing the guns to agents and insist they come in side they can blow me.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:02:11 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this.

For what? Legally buying firearms?

Not a good idea to invite people who make shit up as they go along into your house IMO.

I was referencing the part in red.

He wouldn't be the first person to have the extra information he volunteered (showing other guns) used against him or used as cause for further investigations depending on if anything looked "suspicious". I was thinking of the case in the link I provided earlier where a similar event ended up with the guy in federal prison.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:02:38 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.

That is incredibly sad, but not surprising considering the level of indoctrination and fear about guns. To think that a constitutionally protected item is easier to get a warrant for than an illegal substance

Nothing to do with anti-gun.
If I have information from a reliable CI that a convicted felon Is supposed to have a gun in his house, the judge will sign that warrant 9/10 times.
If I brought a judge a warrant that said "Joe Sixpack has a gun, no record, I wanna bang his door in" the judge will go

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:02:54 PM EDT

[#30]

Basically submit yourself to warrantless searches or face violence or possibly death.

Got it.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:03:40 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or I would have brought the WASR's outside. They would never be allowed in my home.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:03:42 PM EDT

[#32]

Why, yes, officer, I do still have those guns.
Of course I'd be happy to show them to you. Just let me get with my lawyer to find when he's available to bring them down to your office to show them to you.
By the way, I'm sure you won't mind if I discuss this inquiry with my Congressman and the legal staff of the National Rifle Association.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm sort of busy. I've got your card. I'll have my lawyer get back in touch with you tomorrow to arrange our little show and tell.
Good day . . . and be safe out there.
Thanks for your service.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:04:31 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
This is why I usually don't bother in these threads.
Someone will want to second guess you to death and bring up all sorts of scenarios.
Here's what's up - I can't tell you every possible outcome of every scenario.
What I can tell you is that you don't want to be on anybody's radar...especially at the federal level.
Maybe you tell them to "fuck off" and they say "just a harmless asshole" and forget about you.
Or maybe you tickle their spidey sense and you become a target of an investigation.
If you want to be Rosa Parks, go nuts.
But don't get mad when the picture you spent so much time painting is used against you.
Sometimes if you haven't done anything wrong it is just easier to say "yep, I've still got those guns."

Here's what I can tell you - nobody who is even mildly suspected of anything ever talks their way out of trouble. Plenty of people talk their way into it when they think they're talking their way out of it. I could tell those ATF guys all sorts of innocuous things and unwittingly make myself look even more suspect.

I have no idea why they're really there, why they're really asking the questions they're asking, or what they're really looking for. I can't trust what they tell me because LE can and does engage in ruses all the time. There's no reason to be an ass to them, but the simplest and safest thing to do is to simply ignore them and not talk to them at all.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:04:52 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

ATF was notified per new law regarding border states sales of multiple rifles after my friend bought a couple WASR-10s. ATF knocks on his door tonight to check and see if he still has them. Their reason for suspicion? 'it's holiday time and people do a lot of traveling so it's possible he could be taking them farther south.' he shows them that the guns are still in his possession, along with his other firearms he's purchased legally and they leave, satisfied. However, one of them tells him it would be a felony if he HAD sold them to somebody else. Kinda scary to me that they are following up on these purchases.

As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual?

IGNORE BUTTON BULLSHIT

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:05:50 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Buy one of these for your buddy for Christmas/Hanukkah/Festivus/Whatever.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2gwb8xx.jpg

I like this better because it intimidates weak willed burglars and such.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:06:53 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.

I know it applies to handgun sales. I never heard of 2 long guns needing a multiple sales form by an FFL.

Maybe now they do?

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:07:36 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or I would have brought the WASR's outside. They would never be allowed in my home.

This is what I probably do.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:08:55 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.

I think its the opposite. They need bad guys out there to justify all the mess created by it.. I suspect they are more likely to dig around about two rifles now, then before F&F.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:09:07 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.

I know it applies to handgun sales. I never heard of 2 long guns needing a multiple sales form by an FFL.

Maybe now they do?

It's a new rule the ATF made up for the states near Mexico, the letter sent to FFLs was posted here when it came out.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:10:09 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.

I know it applies to handgun sales. I never heard of 2 long guns needing a multiple sales form by an FFL.

Maybe now they do?

They do in Mexican border states. Its been all over the NRA magazine and this board. A lot of people were upset, I think they started that this summer.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:11:03 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.

I know it applies to handgun sales. I never heard of 2 long guns needing a multiple sales form by an FFL.

Maybe now they do?

It's a new rule the ATF made up for the states near Mexico, the letter sent to FFLs was posted here when it came out.

gotcha

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:11:09 PM EDT

[#42]

Perfect time for a FOIA by your friend.
The thing that would be more interesting is if a FOIA was made and your friend was in Army and required a TS/SCI clearance.
It would be real interesting to request copy of investigation and see if there was anything from BATF.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:11:13 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual?

This is really not a clear cut answer.

The ATF rules state that you cannot sell guns as a business without an FFL license.

Individual sales of guns have no well established time period, according to them.

I can, and have, bought guns, and sold them within the day, and it was perfectly legal.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:11:14 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?

Is this some new law in Texas?

That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.

I know it applies to handgun sales. I never heard of 2 long guns needing a multiple sales form by an FFL.

Maybe now they do?

Only close to the border.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:12:01 PM EDT

[#45]

Multiple semi-auto rifle purchased (larger than .22) must be reported in the border states

Bill Passed this July

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:14:04 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
"Ummm, not to be an ass, sir. I respect and appreciate the job you do to uphold the law, but, at this time I must refuse your request. I can assure you that I still have in my possession the firearms you are inquiring about. If this does not satisfy your request then I would be happy to make an appointment for you to view them at your office with my attorney present."

My version, fwiw...

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:18:47 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
This is why I usually don't bother in these threads.
Someone will want to second guess you to death and bring up all sorts of scenarios.
Here's what's up - I can't tell you every possible outcome of every scenario.
What I can tell you is that you don't want to be on anybody's radar...especially at the federal level.
Maybe you tell them to "fuck off" and they say "just a harmless asshole" and forget about you.
Or maybe you tickle their spidey sense and you become a target of an investigation.
If you want to be Rosa Parks, go nuts.
But don't get mad when the picture you spent so much time painting is used against you.
Sometimes if you haven't done anything wrong it is just easier to say "yep, I've still got those guns."

"Why, yes Agent Jones, I do have those rifles. Oh, no, I'd prefer you didn't come in, the place is a mess, but I'd be happy to bring them out here. (step inside, produce guns for them to view) Other guns? No sir, sorry, I'm not going to haul them out on the porch, and I'm not going to consent to search. Something to hide? Well, no, but I am smart enough to realize that there are lots of potential outcomes for a search, but only one that's good for me."

Polite...respectful...firm...informed. I guess knowing my rights and exercising them makes me a suspect?

He asked for the rifles...sure, cooperate at that level. Allow Federal LEOs to take a fishing trip in my house? Nope.

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:22:27 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
"Ummm, not to be an ass, sir. I respect and appreciate the job you do to uphold the law, but, at this time I must refuse your request. I can assure you that I still have in my possession the firearms you are inquiring about. If this does not satisfy your request then I would be happy to make an appointment for you to view them at your office with my attorney present."

My version, fwiw...

Here's my version:

ATF: **Knock-knock-knock** "ATF. Could we have a word with you?"

<crickets chirping>

ATF: **Knock-knock-knock** "ATF. We know you're home. We just want to chat for a second."

<crickets chirping>

<crickets chirping>

ATF: **Knock-knock-knock** "Hello!? Can we speak to you please? It's very important that you talk to us"

<crickets chirping>

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:23:08 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Yawn. What does that mean? They knock on my door again in a week and I ignore them again?

If you don't know, you aren't much of a lawyer...

Posted: 11/30/2011 8:23:33 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
This is why I usually don't bother in these threads.
Someone will want to second guess you to death and bring up all sorts of scenarios.
Here's what's up - I can't tell you every possible outcome of every scenario.
What I can tell you is that you don't want to be on anybody's radar...especially at the federal level.
Maybe you tell them to "fuck off" and they say "just a harmless asshole" and forget about you.
Or maybe you tickle their spidey sense and you become a target of an investigation.
If you want to be Rosa Parks, go nuts.
But don't get mad when the picture you spent so much time painting is used against you.
Sometimes if you haven't done anything wrong it is just easier to say "yep, I've still got those guns."

Best thing to do would be to politely tell them to fuck off and request their contact info. to set up an interview where your lawyer should be present lest they misinterpret what you say as "lying to a federal investigator" (just ask Martha Stewart how that shit goes). That way you CYA without digging yourself into a deeper hole. The LEO mindset displayed by most of them is not to be trusted, so having a meet 'n greet in your living room is usually a bad idea no matter how innocent it may seem at the time.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Friend visited by ATF tonight because of multiple rifle purchase (Page 3 of 10)

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