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Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:25:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
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A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.


He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.


That is exactly what he said.


No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.


Is refusing to talk to the police and refusing a voluntary search and buying multiple rifles enough for a warrant?


No...but it might get a case opened and the rest comes from there.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:25:35 PM EDT
[#2]
As far as the guy who was found guilty mentioned earlier.  Could it be there is a law reguarding number of firearms sold in a year?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:25:50 PM EDT
[#3]
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Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?


Is this some new law in Texas?



That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.


I know it applies to handgun sales. I never heard of 2 long guns needing a multiple sales form by an FFL.

Maybe now they do?


After the current F&F and GW fiascos, the ATF decided that anyone in a border state that bought more than one; mag fed semi auto, at a time was a suspect, had to be reported, and should be checked out.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:26:22 PM EDT
[#4]
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Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?


It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.


Yawn. What does that mean? They knock on my door again in a week and I ignore them again?


If you don't know, you aren't much of a lawyer...


Ok, I guess I'm a shitty lawyer then. What does it mean when you simply don't talk to them and now you're in the "further review pile?" What do they do next?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:26:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.


He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.


That is exactly what he said.


No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.


Is refusing to talk to the police and refusing a voluntary search and buying multiple rifles enough for a warrant?


No...but it might get a case opened and the rest comes from there.


What's "the rest?"
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:27:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Well, this was not a bill that passed congress, but rather an executive order. That is what the NRA is so upset about. As for the ATF's actions, pretty much a regular action on the part of Fed's to pick someone at random and go a bit overboard. Then he will go tell his buddies, or maybe post about it in an internet forum. Intimidation can be a very effective tool.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:29:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.


He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.


That is exactly what he said.


No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.


Fifth Amendment right

Fourth Amendment right


The Police can still open a case and dig through your life for a loooong time...not fun.  It cuts both ways.  Make their life hard...they won't try to make your life easy...

No reason to be an Ass...justbe a good guy and help the people that are trying to sort through a pile of leads to figure out who is doing straw purchases and who isn't.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:30:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Two and three years ago I did a lot of these, rarely would anyone simply being on the list be cause for a visit, unless the it was an extremely slow day.  Usually visits were made after a little background info was obtained and they became a little more interesting.

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:30:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
[

The Police can still open a case and dig through your life for a loooong time...not fun.  It cuts both ways.  Make their life hard...they won't try to make your life easy...

No reason to be an Ass...justbe a good guy and help the people that are trying to sort through a pile of leads to figure out who is doing straw purchases and who isn't.


How do I know that's what they're really doing when I decide to cooperate?

That whole bit about the courts allowing LE to engage in ruses and lies cuts both ways too, doesn't it.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:31:21 PM EDT
[#10]
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This is why I usually don't bother in these threads.
Someone will want to second guess you to death and bring up all sorts of scenarios.
Here's what's up - I can't tell you every possible outcome of every scenario.
What I can tell you is that you don't want to be on anybody's radar...especially at the federal level.
Maybe you tell them to "fuck off" and they say "just a harmless asshole" and forget about you.
Or maybe you tickle their spidey sense and you become a target of an investigation.
If you want to be Rosa Parks, go nuts.
But don't get mad when the picture you spent so much time painting is used against you.
Sometimes if you haven't done anything wrong it is just easier to say "yep, I've still got those guns."


"Why, yes Agent Jones, I do have those rifles. Oh, no, I'd prefer you didn't come in, the place is a mess, but I'd be happy to bring them out here. (step inside, produce guns for them to view) Other guns? No sir, sorry, I'm not going to haul them out on the porch, and I'm not going to consent to search. Something to hide? Well, no, but I am smart enough to realize that there are lots of potential outcomes for a search, but only one that's good for me."

Polite...respectful...firm...informed. I guess knowing my rights and exercising them makes me a suspect?

He asked for the rifles...sure, cooperate at that level. Allow Federal LEOs to take a fishing trip in my house? Nope.




Polite & respectful, cooperative yet firm, and informed.
All those add up to "taxpayer" in the mind of most police.
It's a good look.


Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:31:55 PM EDT
[#11]
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Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?


A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


That does sound intimidating.
Thanks for clarifying.


A search warrant is an incredibly violating experience, as are most non-consensual encounters with LE.
I provide this advice for two reasons.
1) I don't want to see some honest person jammed up because they took something that sounded cool on the net to heart, and they found themselves in a game whose rules they don't understand.
2) as an investigator, I hate getting "false positives" from people because it wastes my time & their time.
Also, understand that just because I post a possible consequence does not always mean I agree with the action, I just think people should know that if you tell the police "come back with a warrant" they might just do that.
Getting a warrant (especially a search warrant) is not some Herculean effort.
And probable cause is probable cause whether it is razor thin or a slam dunk.


The Ammendment Four is
"Razor Thin" ?????

it must be gettttting late...
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:32:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.



is this part of the "What do you have to hide?" thing ? if they come to my door, they'll need a warrant. my wife will already be calling my attorney.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:32:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Two and three years ago I did a lot of these, rarely would anyone simply being on the list be cause for a visit, unless the it was an extremely slow day.  Usually visits were made after a little background info was obtained and they became a little more interesting.



Did you just admit you work/worked for the ATF?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:33:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:34:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
This is why I usually don't bother in these threads.
Someone will want to second guess you to death and bring up all sorts of scenarios.
Here's what's up - I can't tell you every possible outcome of every scenario.
What I can tell you is that you don't want to be on anybody's radar...especially at the federal level.
Maybe you tell them to "fuck off" and they say "just a harmless asshole" and forget about you.
Or maybe you tickle their spidey sense and you become a target of an investigation.
If you want to be Rosa Parks, go nuts.
But don't get mad when the picture you spent so much time painting is used against you.
Sometimes if you haven't done anything wrong it is just easier to say "yep, I've still got those guns."


I understand your responses are presenting a realistic look at how things are done by LEO in our country.
Most people outside this thread probably would comply with said ATF agents request. It is disappointing that
any law abiding citizen is subjected to this sort of scrutiny when there is no probable cause to indicate a law
has or is about to be broken. In OP's scenario, it is a reach by the agents to even attempt this sort of action.
But as my LEO buddies have all told me, you will go for the ride. It's up to you as to how pleasant the ride
will be for you.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:34:48 PM EDT
[#16]
So show them the couple AK's I bought and have the whole situation over with in 5 minutes, or have them come back with a warrant and go through my safe looking for the rifles themselves and drawing out the whole experience? Yeah, I'll go with the former and just be done with it.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:35:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

And when did exercising constitutionally guaranteed rights become being confrontational?



it seems anything having to do with the Constitution is confrontational to LE.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:35:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
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Two and three years ago I did a lot of these, rarely would anyone simply being on the list be cause for a visit, unless the it was an extremely slow day.  Usually visits were made after a little background info was obtained and they became a little more interesting.



Did you just admit you work/worked for the ATF?


Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:36:06 PM EDT
[#19]
A pair of Wasr's could have been the trigger for the events, I doubt the straw buyers go high end. And, if this guy was in a certain area code, could have also been enough for a rulein/ rule out visit. 75211 ( Oak Cliff ) might get some extra attention.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:36:34 PM EDT
[#20]
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Multiple semi-auto rifle purchased (larger than .22) must be reported in the border states

Bill Passed this July


No Bill was passed, this is an ATF rule.


Sorry, misspoke––typing and following this thread on my damn iPhone, trying to blaze through posts as fast as possible. Called it a bill for lack of a better term
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:36:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
So show them the couple AK's I bought and have the whole situation over with in 5 minutes, or have them come back with a warrant and go through my safe looking for the rifles themselves and drawing out the whole experience? Yeah, I'll go with the former and just be done with it.


What makes you think they'll be able to get a warrant? Some jaded cop on the Internet implies that could happen, in defiance of all law and reason, and all of a sudden it becomes plausible?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:40:09 PM EDT
[#22]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

Did they have a warrant?



No warrant, no talk.




Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.

But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.

However, it won't end the way you think.




How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?




It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.




Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?




A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.

Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.

If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.

Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

You get off on the idea that "cop haters" will get angry at you for airing your authoritarian jack-off fantasies on here, don't you?





 
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:41:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I would tell them to go check on the weapons of their bosses since they have a demonstrated pattern of turning up in Mexico.


DING-DING-DING ! ! ! !

And that man wins a Kewpie doll !!!
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:41:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:

Quoted:



No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.

That is incredibly sad, but not surprising considering the level of indoctrination and fear about guns. To think that a constitutionally protected item is easier to get a warrant for than an illegal substance
 


Nothing to do with anti-gun.
If I have information from a reliable CI that a convicted felon Is supposed to have a gun in his house, the judge will sign that warrant 9/10 times.
If I brought a judge a warrant that said "Joe Sixpack has a gun, no record, I wanna bang his door in" the judge will go


And the guy with no record who buys one gun too many but won't do a "knock and talk" - which one of those two does he more closely resemble?

You're not getting a fucking search warrant because somebody did a multiple purchase and then won't "prove his innocence" by showing you the guns or otherwise talking to you. That is complete and utter nonsense.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:43:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would tell them to go check on the weapons of their bosses since they have a demonstrated pattern of turning up in Mexico.


DING-DING-DING ! ! ! !

And that man wins a Kewpie doll !!!


I have to admit, I would be really tempted to break my own rule of silence and say something like that.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:44:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
shoulda told them to fuck off


eta: or tell them he aleady sold them to the other ATF agents that came to his door


Thats the winner folks!
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:45:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Two and three years ago I did a lot of these, rarely would anyone simply being on the list be cause for a visit, unless the it was an extremely slow day.  Usually visits were made after a little background info was obtained and they became a little more interesting.



Did you just admit you work/worked for the ATF?




His undercover name is JohnQPublicWASR10
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:46:33 PM EDT
[#28]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.

Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.

If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.

Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.





If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.




He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.



Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...



Or...you could be polite and cooperate.



One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...



Polite cooperation goes a long way.




That is exactly what he said.


Exercising your constitutional rights isn't probable cause for a search warrant or an arrest.  If a cop suggests that it is in order to get consent for a search or a confession that's coercion, and it's one of the few things cops aren't allowed to lie about.



 
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:47:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.


He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.


That is exactly what he said.


No, I did not.
If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.
In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.
When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.
Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"
And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.


Fifth Amendment right

Fourth Amendment right


THIS
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:47:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
My ffl sed he never got that letter from the ATF so he's not doing it. Hopefully that's still the case.


I was under the impression that program got blocked, or maybe Congress refused to fund it.....I forget, but I was under the impression they weren't able to implement it.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:49:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?


It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.


Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?


A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


I find that to be vaguely disquieting.

In the sense that it fills me with rage.



I also find it disturbing that LEO's here can act like this is perfectly acceptable behavior and see no reason why we shouldnt be OK with it .




Cant , for the life of me , imagine where some members get the attitude to not trust the po-lice here , and why there are so many confrontational threads about it either .
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:49:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
shoulda told them to fuck off





This. I would have contacted my attorney before they came through the door. No warrant, go away.



Yup.

No warrant? What guns I have or do not have are none of your business until then. Have a good day.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:52:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Oh the irony. The ATF comes to HIS door about selling guns that go over the border.

ATF needs a major fucking reform
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:53:19 PM EDT
[#34]
poo
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:53:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Two and three years ago I did a lot of these, rarely would anyone simply being on the list be cause for a visit, unless the it was an extremely slow day.  Usually visits were made after a little background info was obtained and they became a little more interesting.



Like what? They bought 5 guns, and then charged a night in a hotel near the broder on their CC?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:53:57 PM EDT
[#36]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:




Quoted:








No, I did not.

If you refuse to talk to LE, they may begin to view you as a suspect.

In doing so, some of your actions, behaviors, statements, & associates will be viewed in that light.

When all these things are laid out "in context" they may have PC for a warrant.

Remember it is probable cause "that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed"

And I can tell you from personal experience that warrants in re: firearms tend to get less judicial scrutiny than oh, say drug warrants.


That is incredibly sad, but not surprising considering the level of indoctrination and fear about guns. To think that a constitutionally protected item is easier to get a warrant for than an illegal substance

 




Nothing to do with anti-gun.

If I have information from a reliable CI that a convicted felon Is supposed to have a gun in his house, the judge will sign that warrant 9/10 times.

If I brought a judge a warrant that said "Joe Sixpack has a gun, no record, I wanna bang his door in" the judge will go





And the guy with no record who buys one gun too many but won't do a "knock and talk" - which one of those two does he more closely resemble?



You're not getting a fucking search warrant because somebody did a multiple purchase and then won't "prove his innocence" by showing you the guns or otherwise talking to you. That is complete and utter nonsense.

It would be no different than a cop stopping you for driving "suspiciously," handcuffing you, and telling you he'll let you go if you consent to a search or confess to a crime.





 
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:55:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?


A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


That does sound intimidating.
Thanks for clarifying.


A search warrant is an incredibly violating experience, as are most non-consensual encounters with LE.
I provide this advice for two reasons.
1) I don't want to see some honest person jammed up because they took something that sounded cool on the net to heart, and they found themselves in a game whose rules they don't understand.
2) as an investigator, I hate getting "false positives" from people because it wastes my time & their time.
Also, understand that just because I post a possible consequence does not always mean I agree with the action, I just think people should know that if you tell the police "come back with a warrant" they might just do that.
Getting a warrant (especially a search warrant) is not some Herculean effort.
And probable cause is probable cause whether it is razor thin or a slam dunk.


The Ammendment Four is
"Razor Thin" ?????

it must be gettttting late...


"Razor Thin" probable cause may very well be good enough for a rubber stamp approval of a search warrant, but it will likely draw copious amounts of scrutiny during a 1983 action.  

Just remember:  They aren't there at your doorstep looking for justification to let you go about your life unmolested.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 8:59:15 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So show them the couple AK's I bought and have the whole situation over with in 5 minutes, or have them come back with a warrant and go through my safe looking for the rifles themselves and drawing out the whole experience? Yeah, I'll go with the former and just be done with it.


What makes you think they'll be able to get a warrant? Some jaded cop on the Internet implies that could happen, in defiance of all law and reason, and all of a sudden it becomes plausible?


Exactly.  

THERE WILL BE NO WARRANT.


And he's not jaded, he's a fucking kid.

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:01:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Gee . . . I cant imagine why members here develop attitudes with some of the LEO's that post here
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:02:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Here's what I want to know. If a search warrant is so easy to obtain, why not just get one before you go knocking?

As a followup, if you knock and the subject simply refuses to answer the door, how does that add to the affidavit if you go get your easy to obtain warrant? You attempted consensual contact, it was refused. But you still have no more information than you did before.

My response to "a warrant is easy to obtain" is: Great. Then go get one if it's so easy.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:05:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Since when is the sale of a couple (2) of rifles considered multiple sales?


Is this some new law in Texas?



That's what I was thinking also. It's not like he was buying them by the crate. Seems like ATFE would be treading a bit more lightly considering the current pickle they're in with F&F.


I know it applies to handgun sales. I never heard of 2 long guns needing a multiple sales form by an FFL.
Maybe now they do?



our shop got the letter from ATF about 3 months ago telling us that sales of two or more rifles had to have the multiple gun sales form filled out and mailed to ATF. I believe this is done in all states bordering Mexico now.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:07:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Here's what I want to know. If a search warrant is so easy to obtain, why not just get one before you go knocking?

As a followup, if you knock and the subject simply refuses to answer the door, how does that add to the affidavit if you go get your easy to obtain warrant? You attempted consensual contact, it was refused. But you still have no more information than you did before.

My response to "a warrant is easy to obtain" is: Great. Then go get one if it's so easy.


Because it isn't needed for most people since the majority of people want to do the right thing and help the Police sort out who is doing straw purchases and who isn't...

Arfcom is like the ghetto...they bitch about crime, criminals everywhere, Police don't investigate or do any work, ect...but when the Police show up and ask for cooperation, its "FUCK THE POLICE!!!"  

Look, there are assloads of straw purchases going on and very few people to figure out who is doing it.  If you want to help stop some gun crime, cooperate.  If you want to be a a dick and tie up LE resources that could be stopping more gun crime...go arfcom!
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:12:38 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:


Because it isn't needed for most people since the majority of people want to do the right thing and help the Police sort out who is doing straw purchases and who isn't...

Arfcom is like the ghetto...they bitch about crime, criminals everywhere, Police don't investigate or do any work, ect...but when the Police show up and ask for cooperation, its "FUCK THE POLICE!!!"  

Look, there are assloads of straw purchases going on and very few people to figure out who is doing it.  If you want to help stop some gun crime, cooperate.  If you want to be a a dick and tie up LE resources that could be stopping more gun crime...go arfcom!


That's quite an impassioned plea, but it doesn't actually respond to any of my questions. Let alone the broader concerns.

Do you think mere failure to talk to the police in this scenario constitutes PC to get a warrant? Can you answer that simple question, or are you going to keep spewing crap about nonexistent complaints here about crime and police laziness?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:12:41 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:

The agent was talking out of his ass. It is not illegal to sell a gun. It is illegal to "engage in business" without a license. The BATFE offers a somewhat informative interpretation that specifically says you can sell guns as a hobby and that you may sell all or part of your collection.

   The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

   [27 CFR 478.11]


Tell that to John Shipley....



Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:13:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Here's what I want to know. If a search warrant is so easy to obtain, why not just get one before you go knocking?

As a followup, if you knock and the subject simply refuses to answer the door, how does that add to the affidavit if you go get your easy to obtain warrant? You attempted consensual contact, it was refused. But you still have no more information than you did before.

My response to "a warrant is easy to obtain" is: Great. Then go get one if it's so easy.


A name upon a mulitple sale list, along with refusing to answer a door is not probable cause, but you and the young LEO know that. Why the baiting?

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:15:27 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here's what I want to know. If a search warrant is so easy to obtain, why not just get one before you go knocking?

As a followup, if you knock and the subject simply refuses to answer the door, how does that add to the affidavit if you go get your easy to obtain warrant? You attempted consensual contact, it was refused. But you still have no more information than you did before.

My response to "a warrant is easy to obtain" is: Great. Then go get one if it's so easy.


A name upon a mulitple sale list, along with refusing to answer a door is not probable cause, but you and the young LEO know that. Why the baiting?



Because there are statements in this thread that imply otherwise. I want to know why some people think a warrant could issue in this scenario.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:21:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?


A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.


That does sound intimidating.
Thanks for clarifying.


A search warrant is an incredibly violating experience, as are most non-consensual encounters with LE.
I provide this advice for two reasons.
1) I don't want to see some honest person jammed up because they took something that sounded cool on the net to heart, and they found themselves in a game whose rules they don't understand.
2) as an investigator, I hate getting "false positives" from people because it wastes my time & their time.
Also, understand that just because I post a possible consequence does not always mean I agree with the action, I just think people should know that if you tell the police "come back with a warrant" they might just do that.
Getting a warrant (especially a search warrant) is not some Herculean effort.
And probable cause is probable cause whether it is razor thin or a slam dunk.


The Ammendment Four is
"Razor Thin" ?????

it must be gettttting late...


"Razor Thin" probable cause may very well be good enough for a rubber stamp approval of a search warrant, but it will likely draw copious amounts of scrutiny during a 1983 action.  

Just remember:  They aren't there at your doorstep looking for justification to let you go about your life unmolested.


well we have a disagreement on the relative thickness of my bill of rights , DONT WE ?

why are you at enmity with my constitution?

its not very nice...
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:23:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:


Because it isn't needed for most people since the majority of people want to do the right thing and help the Police sort out who is doing straw purchases and who isn't...

Arfcom is like the ghetto...they bitch about crime, criminals everywhere, Police don't investigate or do any work, ect...but when the Police show up and ask for cooperation, its "FUCK THE POLICE!!!"  

Look, there are assloads of straw purchases going on and very few people to figure out who is doing it.  If you want to help stop some gun crime, cooperate.  If you want to be a a dick and tie up LE resources that could be stopping more gun crime...go arfcom!


That's quite an impassioned plea, but it doesn't actually respond to any of my questions. Let alone the broader concerns.

Do you think mere failure to talk to the police in this scenario constitutes PC to get a warrant? Can you answer that simple question, or are you going to keep spewing crap about nonexistent complaints here about crime and police laziness?


As stated before, NO...not by itself.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:25:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Well, the ATF turds outing themselves in this thread is fairly interesting..
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 9:26:06 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here's what I want to know. If a search warrant is so easy to obtain, why not just get one before you go knocking?

As a followup, if you knock and the subject simply refuses to answer the door, how does that add to the affidavit if you go get your easy to obtain warrant? You attempted consensual contact, it was refused. But you still have no more information than you did before.

My response to "a warrant is easy to obtain" is: Great. Then go get one if it's so easy.


Because it isn't needed for most people since the majority of people want to do the right thing and help the Police sort out who is doing straw purchases and who isn't...

Arfcom is like the ghetto...they bitch about crime, criminals everywhere, Police don't investigate or do any work, ect...but when the Police show up and ask for cooperation, its "FUCK THE POLICE!!!"  

Look, there are assloads of straw purchases going on and very few people to figure out who is doing it.  If you want to help stop some gun crime, cooperate.  If you want to be a a dick and tie up LE resources that could be stopping more gun crime...go arfcom!


Bullshit!

look at the f and f thread ....they are just now trying to act like they are stopping illegal gun smuggling
BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW CAUGHT DOING THE SMUGGLING THEMSELVES!
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