Friend visited by ATF tonight because of multiple rifle purchase - Page 2

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Posted: 11/30/2011 7:14:42 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!

I don't play an ATF agent on TV, but I don't think so.

You have to intend on keeping the guns you purchase for personal use or collection. If you buy with the intent to resell, that isn't personal anymore, that's a business intent.

Your intent at the time of purchase is all that matters. If you change your mind about a gun the next day then it's perfectly OK to "enhance your collection." I don't believe the BATFE is equipped with a mind-reading intent detector yet.

That follows my mode of thinking as well––I would think that it would have to get to the point of a trial to determine whether someone 'kept' a gun long enough to sell it for whatever reason. Either that, or the D.A. would realize that they don't have a case or precedence set to make the decision.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:14:44 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:15:21 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

You make it sound like LE is seeking a confrontation with people, hm?

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:15:41 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

I find that to be vaguely disquieting.

In the sense that it fills me with rage.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:15:51 PM EDT

[#5]

They just don't want private citizens competing with them.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:16:27 PM EDT

[#6]

He'd be perfectly fine to tell them to come back with a warrant, but to what end?

I probably would have shown them the AK's and nothing else. BFD.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:16:37 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Normal, they do it all the time.

He fit the profile of criminal behavior...checked...he is good to go.

Had he done the F U!!! JBTs!!!

Yeah...moving towards the suspect side of life

Since when is the ATF allowed to come and demand to see your guns?

As for the previous poster and the raid comment, what fucking judge would sign THAT warrant?

ETA: Uh, yeah, your honor, uh, we wanted to see his legally bought firearms and, uh, he like, uh, wouldn't let us, and stuff.

I won't say NO WAY, but man, that would be a stretch.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:17:31 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

That does sound intimidating.
Thanks for clarifying.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:17:49 PM EDT

[#9]

This is why I don't buy guns from gun stores. Private sale ftw. The man can eat a fat dick trying to track my purchases.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:18:08 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

So, basically what you're saying is to give the man what he wants or else he's going to come take it.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:19:06 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Normal, they do it all the time.

He fit the profile of criminal behavior...checked...he is good to go.

Had he done the F U!!! JBTs!!!

Yeah...moving towards the suspect side of life

Since when is the ATF allowed to come and demand to see your guns?

As for the previous poster and the raid comment, what fucking judge would sign THAT warrant?

Maybe a judge that is on a mission to stop 'border/drug violence' and sees it as a possible payday for political aspirations? (not trying to start a political tangent per CoC)

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:19:12 PM EDT

[#12]

He should have told them that his weapons stay north of the border. Uike the BATF that sends theirs south.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:19:17 PM EDT

[#13]

Shoulda showed them a picture of his boat before it sunk.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:19:22 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

You make it sound like LE is seeking a confrontation with people, hm?

He's a cop. That's not a bad thing and what he does is vitally important, but do not take his advice about speaking with police.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:19:30 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:19:57 PM EDT

[#16]

you should have told the ATF agents you knew of a glory hole in the area, they would have left and went there instead

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:20:01 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!

Tell that to this guy

Good reading, must be more to the story when they arrest a FBI Agent for that.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:20:20 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Normal, they do it all the time.

He fit the profile of criminal behavior...checked...he is good to go.

Had he done the F U!!! JBTs!!!

Yeah...moving towards the suspect side of life

Since when is the ATF allowed to come and demand to see your guns?

As for the previous poster and the raid comment, what fucking judge would sign THAT warrant?

Maybe a judge that is on a mission to stop 'border/drug violence' and sees it as a possible payday for political aspirations? (not trying to start a political tangent per CoC)

My question is how the fuck would that be legal? A raid? With absolutely ZERO PC? Just because he bought guns, which is legal?

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:20:20 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant.

Didn't say it was likely, but its certainly possible. People have gotten in trouble for less.

Please list these instances.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:22:06 PM EDT

[#20]

and your friend couldn't make a crack about fast and furious? lame

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:22:16 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

I find that to be vaguely disquieting.

In the sense that it fills me with rage.

Which aspect?

That it's a steaming pile of horseshit?

Or that the pile was deposited by a LEO?

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:23:53 PM EDT

[#22]

This from the government agency which is smuggling guns to drug cartels.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:25:02 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

disregard

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:27:00 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

So, basically what you're saying is to give the man what he wants or else he's going to come take it.

Not at all.
Just advising that sometimes it is better to go along to get along.
The ATF is seeking to identify persons who are circumventing our gun laws to arm Mexican cartels.
They are not on some anti-gun witch hunt - if you aren't what they are looking for, you drop back off the radar.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:27:18 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

It's not a good idea to start painting law abiding citizens as criminals either.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:29:05 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Normal, they do it all the time.

He fit the profile of criminal behavior...checked...he is good to go.

Had he done the F U!!! JBTs!!!

Yeah...moving towards the suspect side of life

1)So be a hardass, then install some hidden IP cams and audio, record it from a different location.
2)become compliant during the raid and survive.
3)??????????????????????????????????????
4) You too can own a Dillion Aero.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:30:17 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.

He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:32:00 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

I find that to be vaguely disquieting.

In the sense that it fills me with rage.

You should be seething.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:32:32 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!

Tell that to this guy

Good reading, must be more to the story when they arrest a FBI Agent for that.

From what I remember a gun he once owned ended up in Mexico, when the ATF knocked on his door he gave them way more info than they asked for, (similar to the OP). This guy kept records of who he bought and sold to and after a few more hours of questioning without a lawyer he ended up in very hot water himself, now he resides in prison.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:32:37 PM EDT

[#30]

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:33:03 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

So, basically what you're saying is to give the man what he wants or else he's going to come take it.

Not at all.
Just advising that sometimes it is better to go along to get along.
The ATF is seeking to identify persons who are circumventing our gun laws to arm Mexican cartels.
They are not on some anti-gun witch hunt - if you aren't what they are looking for, you drop back off the radar.

The ATF are the persons who are circumventing our gun laws to arm mexican cartels.

The lessons I've learned in the past about dealing with law enforcement has lead me to beleive that the only time it is in my benefit to provide them with information is when I am the victim of a crime, and that even then I should be careful about what I say and how I phrase it.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:33:22 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
The ATF is seeking to identify persons who are circumventing our gun laws to arm Mexican cartels.
They are not on some anti-gun witch hunt - if you aren't what they are looking for, you drop back off the radar.

The ATF: Protecting the Second Amendment since 1968

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:33:41 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.

Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?

A search warrant is very easy to obtain and isn't a fun thing to experience.
Especially after they seize your guns for the duration of the investigation.
If you make yourself look suspect don't be surprised when someone treats you like one.
Knock & talks are "filters" for an investigation.

If refusing to talk and refusing a voluntary search makes you a suspect and is cause for a warrant, well... it is a sad state of affairs. Terms like police state and JBT come to mind.

He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.

What exactly is "acting like a criminal?"

Apples and oranges shit. He didn't do anything illegal in the first place.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:34:04 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.

Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.

Exactly. Sometimes satisfying them makes it go away and not make a mountain out of a molehouse. They shouldn't have been there.. But they were. Do what you can to make them go away and forget about it which is probably what they did.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, they did not go away and forget it. There will be a written record of all that transpired, to include impressions, suspicions, and a diagram of the home. Rest assured, any time, EVERY time you are contacted by a LEO, you are wearing a littl;e sign on your head that says "suspect". Maybe not by the contacting officer, maybe not that day, week, month, even year,but, yes, you are a tooth on a gear which you do not control, nor know about. They are not just stopping by idly. Guaranteed. Not saying your friend is in trouble, r did anything wrong, but, for some reason, someone has reason to believe he did. Or someone he has a connection to did.

With that being said, can you hear the ashes from the second, fourth and fifth amendments of the Bill of Rights floating away?

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:34:57 PM EDT

[#35]

I for one appreciate them going door to door to ensure they don't have competition in running guns into Mexico.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:35:39 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
He isn't saying that that alone would be PC for a warrant....just that being a dick and acting like a criminal will get you unwanted attention from the Police.

Its like this...you get pulled over for a tail light being out. You could curse at the cop, only speak klingon, tell him you pay his salary, and generally act like an ass...

Or...you could be polite and cooperate.

One would get a verbal warning...one might end up in cuffs...

Polite cooperation goes a long way.

Completely different circumstances!

The example you use, driving around with a tail light being out, IS an infraction!

The actions the OP described do NOT constitute an infraction.

Posted: 11/30/2011 7:36:04 PM EDT

[#37]