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Posted: 9/23/2020 6:11:32 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yet some refuse to believe it LOL. Wen you get it from the horse's mouth and don't believe it, you start to look like the horse's rear end.... I’m curious regarding what makes the Intens so much more money since they’re the same tube and man Echos at least in the US have great specs. What exactly are you paying more for - Higher SNR, lower EBI, etc .? Some of the specs I saw on social media land the Intens had similar specs to Echo tubes I’ve seen posted. |
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Posted: 9/23/2020 6:22:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m curious regarding what makes the Intens so much more money since they’re the same tube and man Echos at least in the US have great specs. What exactly are you paying more for - Higher SNR, lower EBI, etc .? Some of the specs I saw on social media land the Intens had similar specs to Echo tubes I’ve seen posted. This is purely speculation on my part as an Echo owner and user. 1) Photocathode sensitivity. This spec isn't listed on Photonis' spec sheets (at least not for the Echo and I have no idea why) and this can help explain a few of the shortcomings of the Echo tubes against gen 3. The Echos cannot resolve detail as well as gen 3 in lower lighting (not even super dark environments) and the lower gain (darker image) that is characteristic of Echo tubes. If the tube has too low of a PC sens to be considered an INTENS, it might explain why it's an Echo even if all the listed specs meet the INTENS spec. 2) Gain. From what I've seen and read (unfortunately no direct first hand experience), the INTENS tubes are brighter than Echo tubes. I don't know why, it could just be a poor yield percentage when Photonis is cranking tubes out so a lot of tubes have lower gain than INTENS spec or it could be as David (cj7hawk) speculated that the Echo tubes are nerfed. (Where is he by the way? I haven't seen him on here for a while) 3) Image quality. A lot of Echo tubes have poor image quality with lots of spots and blems that wouldn't meet the spot requirement to be an INTENS tube. There are certainly Echos with very clean tube images (like mine) but my friend tells me he's seen a lot more bad Echo tubes than good ones. |
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Posted: 9/23/2020 7:07:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Lots of good information in this discussion from some of us old school guys that have a few tips for effectively using NVGs.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Navigating-Deep-Woods/18-513242/ |
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Posted: 9/23/2020 7:10:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Oh boy, not the Smurfs again....
We covered that in great detail in a thread that is archived in my industry forum. Photonis confirmed their tubes are not nerfed, smurfed or derfed.... Interesting that this crazy concept was silent for a while and now is popping up again, things that make you go hmmmm. |
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Posted: 9/23/2020 7:17:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think I read somewhere(possibly here) that the Echos are the same tubes as Intens but didnt meet the required specs to be an Intens. Yeah, but that can be said about nearly any commercial tube. It's a fallout because it didn't meet minimums. |
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Posted: 9/23/2020 8:27:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh boy, not the Smurfs again.... We covered that in great detail in a thread that is archived in my industry forum. Photonis confirmed their tubes are not nerfed, smurfed or derfed.... Interesting that this crazy concept was silent for a while and now is popping up again, things that make you go hmmmm. I'm not claiming they are or aren't. I do know that cj7hawk was a well respected member of this forum and provided incredible amounts of insight and that was his speculation at the time. I don't believe any independent testing was done to prove/disprove this and all we have is Photonis saying they aren't. I'm not saying they're lying, just there's clearly a difference between Echo and INTENS tubes where EVERY Echo tube has low gain compared to INTENS tubes. If it really was just a problem with poor yield stemming from their manufacturing process, I'm pretty sure we'd see Echo tubes with high gain and other specs that don't meet INTENS specs, but those don't seem to exist. |
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Posted: 9/23/2020 9:37:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh boy, not the Smurfs again.... We covered that in great detail in a thread that is archived in my industry forum. Photonis confirmed their tubes are not nerfed, smurfed or derfed.... Interesting that this crazy concept was silent for a while and now is popping up again, things that make you go hmmmm. Nothing like that from my end. I’m genuinely curious about the difference between Intens and Echo because you see a lot of guys say how the Intens are close to filmless but as far as I’ve seen the specs are about the same. Actually, if anything it helps the Echo cause if they’re basically the same since everyone raves about Intens. I really like the Echo I got from you other than it was darker than gen 3. It was a great tube and I’ve always given Echo their due IMO. |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 1:08:48 AM EDT
[#8]
There are four key tube the ECHO, the ECHO plus (min FOM 2000), the 4G and the 4G plus (the latter has a FOM typically >2400, a spectral range from 400 to 1000nm e.g OOB relative to Gen3, super fast autogating and is very robust).
ECHO< ECHO plus< 4G <4G plus. The Echo series of tubes are considered commercial whereas the 4G and 4G plus are considered military grade (there are several other tubes in the military grade category) not a lot of mystery around Photonis these days and the 4G plus in particular is very highly regarded. |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 8:34:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nothing like that from my end. I’m genuinely curious about the difference between Intens and Echo because you see a lot of guys say how the Intens are close to filmless but as far as I’ve seen the specs are about the same. Actually, if anything it helps the Echo cause if they’re basically the same since everyone raves about Intens. I really like the Echo I got from you other than it was darker than gen 3. It was a great tube and I’ve always given Echo their due IMO. Wasn't directing that at you. No worries bro. Folks can go over to my industry forum and read the thread that is there with all the info on the Photonis tubes that we went through with the Photonis VPs. |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 9:02:01 AM EDT
[#10]
I just ordered an Echo unit yesterday, hopefully I get one of the better ones. I really wanted some RNVGs but just don't have the cash at the moment, so getting the Echo to hold me off till I can some afford some RNVGs in a year or two hopefully.
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Posted: 9/24/2020 9:19:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just ordered an Echo unit yesterday, hopefully I get one of the better ones. I really wanted some RNVGs but just don't have the cash at the moment, so getting the Echo to hold me off till I can some afford some RNVGs in a year or two hopefully. Appreciate your business thanks again! Been running just over a week and increasing as more and more people flock to these because they are great units and shipping quick. Will email you when unit goes into production. Thanks again! |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 10:40:02 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are four key tube the ECHO, the ECHO plus (min FOM 2000), the 4G and the 4G plus (the latter has a FOM typically >2400, a spectral range from 400 to 1000nm e.g OOB relative to Gen3, super fast autogating and is very robust). ECHO< ECHO plus< 4G <4G plus. The Echo series of tubes are considered commercial whereas the 4G and 4G plus are considered military grade (there are several other tubes in the military grade category) not a lot of mystery around Photonis these days and the 4G plus in particular is very highly regarded. Do you know how the Echo plus are designated / differentiated? I haven’t seen any US sellers use the “plus” term and all of the spec sheets I’ve seen so far do not have “plus” on the sheet. The type is a ZW. I was under the impression that the “plus” was being used for the European market only but I don’t know if that’s accurate. (ETA: to rephrase the “plus” isn’t being used in the US market) |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 10:41:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you know how the Echo plus are designated / differentiated? I haven’t seen any US sellers use the “plus” term and all of the spec sheets I’ve seen so far do not have “plus” on the sheet. The type is a ZW. I was under the impression that the “plus” was being used for the European market only but I don’t know if that’s accurate. Haven't seen it used in the U.S. either. What I have noticed is in general average specifications for the Echos are MUCH higher now than they were a few years ago. Cleaner as well. |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 6:51:28 PM EDT
[#14]
OP, I am just re-gurgitating a lot of what I've read here over the years. It does bear repeating.
I think these new units are a fantastic choice to get you up and running in a rural environment. They are much better than the stuff I had active duty. Again a moving target. It would be awesome to have the latest kit, along with the fitness and training of a tier one guy; but we do what we can. We are a very tech-oriented society, so that's a default setting; you go for the latest tech, and yes, there is floor here, i.e., you want at least gen 3/Omni V or whatever, and better, IF you can afford it, but we oftentimes gloss over the fieldcraft skills necessary to really leverage this technology. This new Echo stuff is a new wrinkle, as it comes very close to older gen III tech, which in many cases may be perfectly acceptable for what you need. So yeah I think it's a very valid choice for a lot of folks, even in a rural setting. Maybe especially in a rural setting. In terms of what percentage of your overall budget you can afford to spend on NV, and still be able ot cover a lot of other bases, as the case may be. And now that you have the housing and lenses, what's to stop you from up-grading the tube down the road. |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 7:32:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, I am just re-gurgitating a lot of what I've read here over the years. It does bear repeating. I think these new units are a fantastic choice to get you up and running in a rural environment. They are much better than the stuff I had active duty. Again a moving target. It would be awesome to have the latest kit, along with the fitness and training of a tier one guy; but we do what we can. We are a very tech-oriented society, so that's a default setting; you go for the latest tech, and yes, there is floor here, i.e., you want at least gen 3/Omni V or whatever, and better, IF you can afford it, but we oftentimes gloss over the fieldcraft skills necessary to really leverage this technology. This new Echo stuff is a new wrinkle, as it comes very close to older gen III tech, which in many cases may be perfectly acceptable for what you need. So yeah I think it's a very valid choice for a lot of folks, even in a rural setting. Maybe especially in a rural setting. In terms of what percentage of your overall budget you can afford to spend on NV, and still be able ot cover a lot of other bases, as the case may be. And now that you have the housing and lenses, what's to stop you from up-grading the tube down the road. Over the last three nights I've been out in the yard and woods with it and I'm confident I made the right choice. I did order a Sureshot SNB filter just as an experiment, don't know if I'll like it or not. What sold me on the Photonis was a thread where Robert from JRH had posted some specs from past buyers and I ended up getting a pretty decent one IMO. Yeah, as far as budget was concerned, I had to take into account that I needed at least a bump helmet, high end mount, ear pro and adapters, ect... It added up quick and then I put in an order for a laser haha!! |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 8:15:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Haven't seen it used in the U.S. either. What I have noticed is in general average specifications for the Echos are MUCH higher now than they were a few years ago. Cleaner as well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Haven't seen it used in the U.S. either. What I have noticed is in general average specifications for the Echos are MUCH higher now than they were a few years ago. Cleaner as well. Quoted: Do you know how the Echo plus are designated / differentiated? I haven’t seen any US sellers use the “plus” term and all of the spec sheets I’ve seen so far do not have “plus” on the sheet. The type is a ZW. I was under the impression that the “plus” was being used for the European market only but I don’t know if that’s accurate. (ETA: to rephrase the “plus” isn’t being used in the US market) Its a designation used by Photonis themselves and is a specification which translates to a minimum FOM of 2000 to achieve the plus designation for the Echo. Moreover, you are correct the base minimums are much higher than they were two or three years ago at least 10% higher (in terms of FOM). In regard to the 4G and 4G plus the tubes are marked as such and obviously, the 4G plus is an upgrade over the 4G"INTENS" - I believe the improved performance is driven by a different MCP design. Both the current 4G and 4G plus have ultrafast autogating. |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 8:47:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its a designation used by Photonis themselves and is a specification which translates to a minimum FOM of 2000 to achieve the plus designation for the Echo. Moreover, you are correct the base minimums are much higher than they were two or three years ago at least 10% higher (in terms of FOM). In regard to the 4G and 4G plus the tubes are marked as such and obviously, the 4G plus is an upgrade over the 4G"INTENS" - I believe the improved performance is driven by a different MCP design. Both the current 4G and 4G plus have ultrafast autogating. Good to know, thanks. . We are seeing an average of 68 LP and 30 SN now so over 2000 FOM. As usual some higher some slightly lower. |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 9:02:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good to know, thanks. . We are seeing an average of 68 LP and 30 SN now so over 2000 FOM. As usual some higher some slightly lower. Can customers ask for certain specs on the Echos? |
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Posted: 9/24/2020 9:05:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can customers ask for certain specs on the Echos? Easiest to call with stuff like that. |
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Posted: 9/25/2020 7:11:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good to know, thanks. . We are seeing an average of 68 LP and 30 SN now so over 2000 FOM. As usual some higher some slightly lower. Just goes to show how quickly things can move.......the OMNI VII minimum spec was a FOM of 1792 and now commercial grade ECHO tubes are typically ~ 2000 FOM Time waits for no man :) |
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Posted: 9/25/2020 9:03:05 AM EDT
[#21]
Yeah this is a very good point, which gets lost in the sauce sometimes. As the quality of one segment of the market moves up, so does the quality of another. And we've seen all these buy-outs and mergers and what-not and how that has effected tube quality (not to mention lenses n shit). So as to the question of what's good enough for me, well, as we've seen in this thread, it's a pretty rapidly evolving market; there are many choices out there, as vendors strive to get that balance of quality and price point.
In a case like this, you gotta do your homework. Coming here is a very smart move. Lotsa of good gouge. It's not so much about what's state of the art, although there are those that chase that, but who is rapidly acheiving a good, usuable minimum standard, at a good price point. And that is a rapidly expanding market segment, being driven by current events. You know, at one time, I would have never considered foreign-made kit; the difference between US-made and others was so great, there was no question. But now, my how things have changed. |
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Posted: 9/25/2020 6:57:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good to know, thanks. . We are seeing an average of 68 LP and 30 SN now so over 2000 FOM. As usual some higher some slightly lower. Mine just showed up. Looking forward to taking it out tonight FOM 2208 SN 32.47 Center Res 68 EBI 0.19 Halo 0.83 |
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Posted: 9/25/2020 10:11:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mine just showed up. Looking forward to taking it out tonight FOM 2208 SN 32.47 Center Res 68 EBI 0.19 Halo 0.83 |
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Posted: 9/25/2020 10:23:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah this is a very good point, which gets lost in the sauce sometimes. As the quality of one segment of the market moves up, so does the quality of another. And we've seen all these buy-outs and mergers and what-not and how that has effected tube quality (not to mention lenses n shit). So as to the question of what's good enough for me, well, as we've seen in this thread, it's a pretty rapidly evolving market; there are many choices out there, as vendors strive to get that balance of quality and price point. In a case like this, you gotta do your homework. Coming here is a very smart move. Lotsa of good gouge. It's not so much about what's state of the art, although there are those that chase that, but who is rapidly acheiving a good, usuable minimum standard, at a good price point. And that is a rapidly expanding market segment, being driven by current events. You know, at one time, I would have never considered foreign-made kit; the difference between US-made and others was so great, there was no question. But now, my how things have changed. Theres lots of great gear out there - the secret is to get what is effective for you and your activity/task range - its no different with night vision e.g. no point spending 10K on NODs if you have nothing left over for top quality boots, clothes, packs and training :) Then again a lot comes down to your line of work and what policies/protocols/SOPS are in place :) After 35 years operating in remote regions I have learned by mistakes and experience what works for me - some things are more critical than others - boots for example - I go with Saloman and Scarpa, packs mystery ranch Black Jack 50 and 3DAP (my knees aren't what they used to be so have to keep weight down) - pants, Fjallraven Vida Pro or Crye 3G, shirts Crye, Outerwear - Platatac OSSA, SORD SMOK and anorak, GPS Garmin (various but includes watch, foretrex601,64plus), helmets OPs Core fast bump (multiple) but will likely move to TW EXFIL SAR (great specs for climbing), distance measuring leupold 1600i, NODs/DODS PVS7, Aurora, Breach. The point being NODS are just one part of a system that allows you to be effective along with training (and lots of experience) without which you can't be effective. I would say about 70% of my gear is from the US and the remainder from Oz and Europe - 30 years ago 70% of the gear would have been from Europe (I still have an 80s vintage Berghaus Bergen - and its still going strong). Definitely wouldn't mind a 4G plus tube in my PVS7 :) |
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Posted: 9/26/2020 12:54:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Shitty pic with my iPhone 8, but this is in 12 acres of undeveloped land in the middle of our club in an otherwise very urban area. The background light is the moon.
 Attached FileThis picture is from a par 5 fairway, far tree line is 500 yards away with a major road and homes behind it. Homes to the right as well behind tree line.  Attached FileCell phone pics really don’t do it justice. Pretty damn happy with the performance! |
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Posted: 9/26/2020 9:33:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shitty pic with my iPhone 8, but this is in 12 acres of undeveloped land in the middle of our club in an otherwise very urban area. The background light is the moon. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/371613/C9A4567E-126C-44EE-855D-8BF1F928ACF7_jpe-1607447.JPG This picture is from a par 5 fairway, far tree line is 500 yards away with a major road and homes behind it. Homes to the right as well behind tree line. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/371613/E0F5AA13-724D-45C3-A574-FD0697D4E014_jpe-1607450.JPG Cell phone pics really don’t do it justice. Pretty damn happy with the performance! AWESOME!!! Great pics, thanks again for your business!!! |
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Posted: 9/26/2020 11:50:06 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shitty pic with my iPhone 8, but this is in 12 acres of undeveloped land in the middle of our club in an otherwise very urban area. The background light is the moon. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/371613/C9A4567E-126C-44EE-855D-8BF1F928ACF7_jpe-1607447.JPG This picture is from a par 5 fairway, far tree line is 500 yards away with a major road and homes behind it. Homes to the right as well behind tree line. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/371613/E0F5AA13-724D-45C3-A574-FD0697D4E014_jpe-1607450.JPG Cell phone pics really don’t do it justice. Pretty damn happy with the performance! WoW very clean clear tube. If I get some money back from the Lamneth fiasco I'm going to looking at some Echo+ in RNVGs or sell 2 pvs14 and buy BNVD with Echo tubes. |
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Posted: 9/26/2020 12:05:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WoW very clean clear tube. If I get some money back from the Lamneth fiasco I'm going to looking at some Echo+ in RNVGs or sell 2 pvs14 and buy BNVD with Echo tubes. We MAY be seeing some BNVDs with Echos coming available soon. |
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Posted: 9/26/2020 12:22:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AWESOME!!! Great pics, thanks again for your business!!! Quote HistoryQuoted: AWESOME!!! Great pics, thanks again for your business!!! Thank you! I’m very happy with them, the stress of “what specs will I get, how will my tube look?” Is agonizing! Quoted: We MAY be seeing some BNVDs with Echos coming available soon. Don’t say that!!! Haha 
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Posted: 9/26/2020 12:52:21 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We MAY be seeing some BNVDs with Echos coming available soon. I'm on the email list already, I can't wait for these to come on line. |
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Posted: 9/27/2020 10:39:14 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We MAY be seeing some BNVDs with Echos coming available soon. Note to self , *call JRH this week. |
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Posted: 9/27/2020 11:01:28 AM EDT
[#32]
GHOZ brings up a good point here. In times past we were partial to our own kit, simply becasue that's what was available and/or issued. If you didn't deploy and cross-train with others, you simply weren't aware of other options. These days, we have the internet, for better or worse.
My Crossfire rucksack is from Australia. My Saloman boots are from France. My Suunto compass from Finland. My LAM from Russia. My next NV purchase may be from France as well. This is a rapidly changing field my friends. |
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Posted: 9/27/2020 10:31:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GHOZ brings up a good point here. In times past we were partial to our own kit, simply becasue that's what was available and/or issued. If you didn't deploy and cross-train with others, you simply weren't aware of other options. These days, we have the internet, for better or worse. My Crossfire rucksack is from Australia. My Saloman boots are from France. My Suunto compass from Finland. My LAM from Russia. My next NV purchase may be from France as well. This is a rapidly changing field my friends. The DG series packs are very comparable to mystery ranch packs  but at a much better price point - definitely would look at the DG3 55L, long gone are the days of 110L :) But you're right, you learn a lot from others and you borrow (with approval of course) what works. If you have good people, you don't ham string them with gear or SOPs that don't work. The key being good, well trained motivated people.I have to say I like the look of the Photonis products - I particularly like the onyx (white phosphor) it just works for my eyes e.g. seems to have a lot of contrast. |
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Posted: 9/28/2020 9:45:51 AM EDT
[#34]
I can hook you up with one of those DG3's. We have new AW (artic warfare) packs coming out and standard packs with many of the same features.
To your point, I have been looking for the perfect military pack for over 30 years, and finally found it in OZ-land. But back to Photonis, I will be watching them for the next few years and see what happens here. This might be a good way to fianlly get into binos. |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 10:14:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shitty pic with my iPhone 8, but this is in 12 acres of undeveloped land in the middle of our club in an otherwise very urban area. The background light is the moon. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/371613/B181C5D9-2863-4FF9-87C5-2FF075C1F6B1_jpe-1607771.JPG This picture is from a par 5 fairway, far tree line is 500 yards away with a major road and homes behind it. Homes to the right as well behind tree line. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/371613/D99840A5-AEA6-4231-959E-74679EE945EC_jpe-1607773.JPG Cell phone pics really don’t do it justice. Pretty damn happy with the performance! That pic you posted of the German Shepherd was great as well! Good taste in NV and dogs!!! @NorCalRT |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 10:26:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Sucker me into posting it agin
My 90 pound land shark was very confused as to why I kept calling him and not throwing the glow in the dark chuck it ball. This is his "no take, only throw" stance  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 10:37:49 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sucker me into posting it agin My 90 pound land shark was very confused as to why I kept calling him and not throwing the glow in the dark chuck it ball. This is his "no take, only throw" stance https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/371613/81625171-C841-4DA2-8F7B-4D2F9E03E2B4_jpe-1614653.JPG LOL. I personally take crappy pics. I noticed the pic with the GSD and the clarity is great. Thanks for posting it here! |
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Posted: 10/1/2020 10:11:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can hook you up with one of those DG3's. We have new AW (artic warfare) packs coming out and standard packs with many of the same features. To your point, I have been looking for the perfect military pack for over 30 years, and finally found it in OZ-land. But back to Photonis, I will be watching them for the next few years and see what happens here. This might be a good way to fianlly get into binos. |
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Posted: 10/4/2020 9:11:30 AM EDT
[#39]
 I've had more than a few people ask if the Echos "see IR lasers?" It seems someone started some ridiculous rumor aka "fake news" that Photonis Echo spec units did not see civilian IR lasers  This is one of the stupidest 'vicious rumors' out there cause it makes the perpetrators look like "misinformed" idiots. Yes, your Photonis Echo spec unit will see any IR laser you can buy. See pic above for proof. |
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Posted: 10/6/2020 8:55:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Just put an order in. Super stoked!
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