"I can't abide those Jawas... disgusting creatures.."   LOL

Sounds good, whenever your ready give us a shout, thanks.

Since you asked, the unfilmed L3 tubes seriously will out perform the ECHO when it gets extremely dark out there. BUT it's much higher priced but you will never regret that technology in the cry once situation.

Elbit systems WP PVS14 comparison pic

Above is an Elbit system WP unit with similar specs (29SN, etc) to the below Photonis Echo spec unit

Photonis Echo spec WP PVS14 comparison pic

Pics taken last weekend under crappy conditions- moon was not up yet, it was overcast. Pic taken at our range property in the deep dark Georgia swamps. No McMansions or sidewalks in the background, hence no ambient lighting that would artificially make either unit look better.

Here is a youtube video we made years ago with the Echo spec units, again IN THE WOODS with no ambient lighting-

Echo spec performance in woods

Just some thoughts to consider:

A new Gen. 3 image intensifier with identical specs (after conversion) will always perform better in low light conditions than an ECHO.

Many people will compare "my OMNI IV-VII" Gen. 3 tube to brand new ECHOs and report performance on that basis. OMNI VIII is ten years old now, which means that any pre-OMNI VIII tube is at least about that old.

Now, image intensifiers will work and will perform for a long time, and 10,000 hours MTTF is nothing to turn your nose up at.

That being said, tube performance will degrade gradually through use, which means that a brand new tube compared to a 10+ year old tube is not a fair comparison unless the 10 year old tube basically hasn't been used at all. If it has had a "normal" life, its specs would have degraded since it was new, new tubes should be compared to new tubes, and new OMNI VIII spec image intensifier built in 2020 will usually beat out an ECHO manufactured at the same time.

The main appeal of ECHO tubes tends to be price and availability. For better or for worse, few customers choose ECHO tubes over Gen. 3 if the price and lead time is the same. Photonis tubes in general are popular in international markets because it is much more difficult to get U.S. Gen. 3 image intensifiers in overseas markets, even for foreign military, and non-domestic Gen. 3 tube manufacturing is still quite far behind U.S. Gen. 3 performance.

Now, if price and/or availability are a big factor to you, it would be incumbent upon you to decide how important they are in making your decision as to whether or not to purchase a system with an ECHO tube. In some cases they can be good values, especially if you don't need Gen. 3 level performance and your primary use is recreational, e.g., hunting, square range training, hiking/walking under ideal conditions, etc.

An argument frequently extended for ECHOs is "high light performance," usually with "urban areas" thrown in there as well.

The former is a little bit of a head scratcher, in high light conditions, you might be better off simply not using NV at all, depending on how "high light" it is.

Night vision is primarily intended to allow you to move concealed under the cover of darkness--in "high light," what this often means is that while light levels are low enough so that you might still "need" night vision to see clearly, the enemy, even without night vision, can still see you, potentially negating your use of NV, as opposed to higher powered white light.

Again, this depends on what "high light" means to you, but it seems like an odd argument when talking about night vision.

In terms of the latter ("urban areas"), to me this is usually a good indicator that someone has not spent a lot of time actually working in urban areas with NV very much.

Urban areas have some of the darkest spaces that you will ever go into with NODs. The insides of buildings, basements, even some dark alleys, etc., are often quite indifferent to ambient environmental light like the moon and stars that can aid you and your night vision device in more rural settings.

I guess if you're staying out on the streets, again, in "high light," it's fine, but if you're working the complex terrain of an urban or even suburban environment, I would argue that you need extreme low light performance way more so than you do in open, rural areas, where there's far less disparity between the bright areas and the dark areas, and fewer dark places to hide. The first few steps into a house, and it won't matter what moon phase you're in, if Mercury is in retrograde, or whatever--you want your goggles to gather as much light as possible, "I'll just use an illuminator" only works so far, especially if you're working in close quarters with other people, where too many uncoordinated sources of IR can be a problem as well.

So, again, it comes down to your needs/mission, your terrain, your budget, and especially these days, how quickly you need to have it.

Night Vision is better than no night vision, and I'd certainly take an ECHO over nothing. But generally my recommendation for most folks wanting to spend their hard earned money on the best possible performance is to save up/hold out for a Gen. 3 system.

~Augee

Uhm...

Yeah, so, I never said that rural areas don’t get dark. I live in a rural area and love it and it gets dark as shit out here.

I said that urban areas can get just as dark relative to the implication that some folks make that urban areas somehow have more light than rural ones, and therefore low light performance is somehow less important, and that low light performance could be more important in urban areas than in some rural areas.

The key point here being low light performance is just as important in an urban area as if you’re going to be a rural area, so the implication that it’s not important if you’re in an urban area is a red herring.

Also, I didn’t post until page two of the thread, nor did anyone else from TNVC until a) a full 12 days after the thread was posted and b) after someone else specifically asked for more opinions.

But you do you and keep searching for that reason to be offended.

~Augee

We’ve been working with Photonis and Photonis tubes for quite a while now, and we’ve sold a lot of them over the years, both what used to be called the 4G INTENS (now 4G MILSPEC) and ECHOs, as recently as this summer on Night Goggles before we took them off to focus on the XLS line which has now outstripped capacity to the point where we’ve had to stop accepting new orders for any in-house built Night Goggles systems.

The rest I’ll leave alone because to some my working in the industry means that anything I have to say is invalid because I must be trying to make a buck, so it really ends up being lose-lose.

~Augee

I honestly didn’t even know you said anything about it.

I was generically referencing “common sales pitches” surrounding the ECHOs, and I caught a few “my OMNI xx”s skimming the thread, but don’t even know who posted them.

Opinions were solicited, an opinion was given. No more, no less.

~Augee

Accepted and returned.

I wasn’t trying to single anyone out or reference anything specific other than to address various claims I’ve seen made in various venues to help all consumers, whether they buy from us or not, make an informed decision.

~Augee

+1   2020 has been great for business but I haven't had too many days off this year. Got away a couple days for training in June and just recently for a couple days, other than that it's been 7 days a week 12+ hour days every day this year.

So whereas I used to get to my range for half a day almost every weekend, I'm only averaging once a month now. My "sanity breaks" are going for a run a couple times a week and doing combatives.

Is 2020 over yet? LOL   Hopefully sleepy joe won't get elected and we can get back to semi normal again soon!

That FOM!! Hell to the yeah!!!

Been cranking out some AWESOME Echo spec units shipping in just about a week!

We appreciate your business, thanks again!
Robert

The legs are the shock absorbers of the body. Whether with NV or not, pay more attention to your legs at night while walking. Too often we just get into the habit of walking like we are "back on the block" but we need to walk a little different at night, especially in the woods. At Midnight Rendezous NV gatherings we do some leg exercises that help with his, learning to balance a little better without a ton of visual input, learning to "feel" with your feet a little bit and similar drills. It doesn't just make you quieter in the woods but it works better for changing elevation, small holes aren't the "THUD!" issue for your feet as much, etc.

As to depth perception and training your brain a bit on that end- a little exercise you can do is go out in the backyard and walk towards a tree slowly with your arm extended till your outstretched fingers touch the leaves on the branch. Do that a handful of time then start leaving your hand down and walk up to where you think your outstretched arm would touch it and slowly raise your arm.

We teach a similar thing approaching a wall or "barricade" at night as well- non shooting hand outstretches as you approach it till your fingertips hit the wall. This keeps people from slamming up against walls potentially giving themselves away- and reinforces having a little space from your "cover" as well- which can help working angles as well.

This is exactly correct as confirmed by Photonis in person with 3 VPs two years back at Shot show.