User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/2/2012 10:09:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By WI57:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
The documentation (mainly the operator's TM) states that the knurling is for tactile identification - you should be able to feel the knurling even if you can't see the case, though I don't know why that is more effective than feeling the rosette crimp at the mouth. I am impressed at the durability of those former blank cases. My points earlier were not about the material, but about how the cases are treated during the manufacturing process. Blanks don't need the same elasticity at the shoulder and neck as live rounds do, so there is no real reason to anneal the cases the same way as live cases. This may explain the neck splits you have experienced. If you're going to the trouble of cutting down and reforming these cases, you might want to anneal the next batch and see how the necks behave. I believe you are right, there is annealing marks on the blank brass, but it appears to be just near the top and I think its just for the rose petal crimp. I am trying to track down a guy with an annealer locally and have a line on one to use. I'm going to try to anneal a few and see if that makes them last longer. But my whole intention of this was if I could make 3gun brass I could just leave lay at the stages and not worry about having to try to get my "good" brass back. Annealing would also give you more consistent neck tension, which would improve the theoretical accuracy of your 3 gun "leave it where it lies" brass - and theoretically improve your performance in the match. Precision bench rest shooters tend to get to know each individual molecule in their cases, including how many I times a case has been loaded, when it was last annealed, and so on, in part because consistent neck tension leads to consistent ignition and consistent bullet pull, all elements of higher accuracy rounds. It would also be interesting to find out whether the necks on trimmed blank cases are also of a consistent thickness. That too would affect accuracy. |
|
|
|
WI, USA
|
Posted: 2/2/2012 10:14:11 PM EDT
[#2]
All those toys and you don't have a chronograph? WTF man?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/3/2012 6:38:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By heavy260:
All those toys and you don't have a chronograph? WTF man? I have a feeling he does... |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/3/2012 7:31:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Well I never had a chance to make it to the range today, but that's probably for the best as it was cloudy and cold.
So I will try to get out Saturday and hopefully its a little nicer for load testing and I can take some range pictures. But, I figured I should show a picture of what happens if you try to trim without the crimp opened up enough. This is cause by trying to open up the crimp with a dental pick and pour the powder out in an attempt to save the powder, not with it. 
And here is the 40 "blanks" I'll be testing for accuracy tomorrow. 
Left to right is 69gr SMK's over 24.5 of varget, 77gr Noslers over 24.5 of varget, some BHA 77gr match, and good ol' M855. 
Originally Posted By AMUshooter10:
Originally Posted By heavy260:
All those toys and you don't have a chronograph? WTF man? I have a feeling he does... heavy260, I had a chrono, but I got tired of being told my bullets were going -ERR01- so I returned it. 
I had been using AMUshooter10's chrono whenever I needed to see what speed I was at. But since I was everywhere BUT the range today I picked up a new chrono... Let the testing begin. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/3/2012 7:48:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Is it possible to cut the crimp off with a dremel, or would that make the necks too short?
I have found a few handfuls of 5.56 blanks before, but I figured it wasn't worth it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 12:14:39 AM EDT
[#6]
Excellent photo essay. I grabbed the barrel chamber section photo. It is a good one to show that the back of the case is not suppported by the chamber. That is typical of ARs and push feed bolt guns (Remy 700s, etc.)
As to your comment: If that's the case I doubt the military would have put one on their 50,000 PSI match rounds.
The military never weighs any consideration of reloading or full pressure cycling of the brass beyond first firing; generally they are are not reloaders. That brings up another point that should be considered. The reloader using the blank case should realize that it has never been pressure tested to spec. chamber pressure. The reloader using the M193 or M855 or MK262 once fired case can rest assured that it has been tested typically at spec. chamber pressure and, in these particular rounds, over SAAMI MAP at least for one cycle. This means that a structural weakness flaw could get pass the blank pressure peak, but might fail the reloaded second firing when a higher peak pressure is encountered. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 12:17:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By kingoftheroad:
Is it possible to cut the crimp off with a dremel, or would that make the necks too short? I have found a few handfuls of 5.56 blanks before, but I figured it wasn't worth it. I'm sure you could remove the crimp with a dremel, saw or a file if needed. But to the average shooter its totally not worth the time or effort to make blanks into reloadable brass. And unless you are sitting on a ton of blanks its really not worth it to reload them into ammo. I have a decent setup that makes it easy for me and I have a bunch of blanks laying around. I mainly did this to see if it was possible to use them for 3gun or south dakota where I never get my brass back. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 12:24:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Originally Posted By CCW:
Excellent photo essay. I grabbed the barrel chamber section photo. It is a good one to show that the back of the case is not suppported by the chamber. That is typical of ARs and push feed bolt guns (Remy 700s, etc.) As to your comment: If that's the case I doubt the military would have put one on their 50,000 PSI match rounds.
The military never weighs any consideration of reloading or full pressure cycling of the brass beyond first firing; generally they are are not reloaders. That brings up another point that should be considered. The reloader using the blank case should realize that it has never been pressure tested to spec. chamber pressure. The reloader using the M193 or M855 or MK262 once fired case can rest assured that it has been tested typically at spec. chamber pressure and, in these particular rounds, over SAAMI MAP at least for one cycle. This means that a structural weakness flaw could get pass the blank pressure peak, but might fail the reloaded second firing when a higher peak pressure is encountered. True, nobody seems to know anything about the manufacturing of the actual blank brass case besides its made from the same cup as regular brass. If I could ever get through to someone at Lake City, which is where I believe they make the actual brass I'd know more. Is there a place where a few pieces of brass could be sent for testing? I know corbon used to do it but I'm not so sure. The whole reason for this test was to see if a blank case could be made into a live round and fired once, and then left lay. I figured I should document it every step of the way so others could learn. If I blew up an upper then there would be proof it cannot be done, instead of the rumors that say its impossible. I'd also like to know what pressure 7gr of HPC-13 flash powder burns at. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 12:49:04 AM EDT
[#9]
I have an Ames Superficial 15T portable hardness tester and an old Wilson Rockwell JS Superficial tester for hardness testing of thin brass.
I have observed that some brass hardness quality control at the factory is accomplished by looking at grain structure on photomicrographs rather than hardness testing. My assumption in "how do they do it" is that for the cases moving toward service rounds, the strength of the brass is evaluated using a combination of hardness testing (Mil Spec is in Vickers Diamond Penetration units) and visual check of photomicrographs. For the cases moving toward blank rounds, that test is omitted or its frequency of test is reduced, or eliminated, or go-no-go limits relaxed. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 5:35:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WI57]
[#10]
Ok, final firing is completed.
Here is my test bed, a 20" rifle with a 1/7 twist barrel and a 5.56mm chamber. 
I recorded this one on video to show the velocity I'm getting with the reloaded blank brass. All set up so hopefully you can read the chronograph and see the velocities. 
After this firing they are split up pretty bad, next to nothing for neck tension on the ones with the split into the shoulder. 
For accuracy I tested with a Remington 700 SPS tactical and RRA Varmint with a 1/8 twist 24" barrel. (Forgot to take a picture of that one)
If I can upload the videos I'll post them, but they are really boring. 
Empty brass, with the exception of a M855 round that didn't want to fire. (got that on video too) 
My target, L to R top row, 69gr in blank brass, 77gr in blank brass, 77gr BHA match, 62gr M855. Bottom row L to R, 69gr in blank brass, 77gr in blank brass, 77gr BHA match, 62gr M855. 
All finished up. I feel 100% confident using the blank brass at least once for places I'll never get my brass back. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 5:49:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Pure awesomness!
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 5:53:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WI57]
[#12]
The results of the accuracy tests are as follows:
Picture of the target at 100 yards.
These first four were all shot out of a RRA Varmint with a 24" 1/8 barrel, wylde chamber. Blank brass loaded with a CCI 41, 24.5gr of Varget, and a 69gr SMK. 1.120" 
Blank brass loaded with a CCI 41, 24.5 of Varget, and a 77gr Nosler. 1.928" 
Black Hills 77gr Match. 2.004" 
M855 62gr "Green Tip". 3.172" 
These next four were shot out of a Remington 700 SPS Tactical with a 1/9 twist barrel, and the factory Remington chamber. Blank brass loaded with a CCI 41, 24.5gr of Varget, and a 69gr SMK. 1.597" 
Blank brass loaded with a CCI 41, 24.5 of Varget, and a 77gr Nosler. 1.360" 
Black Hills 77gr Match. 2.425" 
M855 62gr "Green Tip". 3.364" 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 8:09:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WI57]
[#13]
Now for the boring part, the videos.
I tried to position the chronograph screen to it was easy to read, but it didnt work that well. Shooting the RRA Varmint with Blank Brass loaded with 69gr SMK's.
Shooting the RRA Varmint with Blank Brass loaded with 77gr Noslers.
Shooting the RRA Varmint with BHA 77gr Match.
Shooting the RRA Varmint with M855.
And now the bolt gun... Shooting the Remington 700 with Blank Brass loaded with 69gr SMK's.
Shooting the Remington 700 with Blank Brass loaded with 77gr Noslers.
Shooting the Remington 700 with BHA 77gr Match.
Shooting the Remington 700 with M855.
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 9:09:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Nicely done. Not only can you do brass and forget it, but you can load it a reasonable
amount of times before you have to get rid of it. If you dropped that load down to 24.5grs it might go longer. |
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 9:30:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Holy shit what a write up.
I think it's safe to say using blank brass is O.K. I have a shit pile of it I'm going to turn into .300 black out. |
|
|
KS, USA
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 9:43:09 PM EDT
[#16]
If there was ever a time to say the proof is in the pudding I think this is it. Thanks for the write up.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/4/2012 11:21:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Again, well done.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/6/2012 8:36:59 PM EDT
[#18]
If I was to guess it looks like your case head separation is due to cold working of the resizing die and the ring is due to the end of the actual resize region of the die. Most dies, maybe all?, don't size all the way to the extractor groove.
beyond that nice work. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/6/2012 10:19:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Very cool thread
Thank You |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/6/2012 10:58:41 PM EDT
[#20]
 very cool and informative thread.
Thank you very much!! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/7/2012 12:29:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Well I cut them up today, I kinda hurt to do it since they had been so good to me over the last week.
But here is what they looked like after their 6th firing. 
And here they are all cleaned up and sectioned at the base. 
I tried to shine a light inside the bodies to see if any case separation was going on at the cannelure. 
But they all look good, even the ones with the heaviest of knurls are not pulling apart. 
So on that note, I will update this if I ever hear back from the people that make the actual brass. And if I send any of the blank brass off to be hardness tested I'll post the results too. But as they survived 3 firings before the necks split, and made it 6 firings mostly intact. I'd say I answered my question, my M200 blanks can be reloaded. 
(Please use caution and work up your loads if you try to load your blank brass. I cannot speak for all lots of blank brass, but the ones I tested have worked just fine. Stay safe.) |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/7/2012 12:24:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Those pictures are really clear.
I know you have a fair amount vested in this post. So if you had to take a guess, how much time did you spend on it? I feel like you would make a great attorney Very thorough indeed.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/7/2012 2:29:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Epic right up...deserves a place in the tacked threads for sure!
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/7/2012 4:03:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WI57]
[#24]
Just got a reply back from ATK, well it was a forward of a reply to my original email.
I would not recommend using the blank brass for functional cartridge brass. The functional brass has a head hardness requirement, and sidewall hardness requirement and are checked and controlled for the normal functional types of cartridges. Blank does not have the same requirements since it does not see the same type of pressure levels as a functional cartridge. The rosette crimp comes down the neck area of the case close to where you would need to trim it off so you would have the chance of having splits in the mouth of the case. I called ATK shortly after getting the email I was able to speak with a technician to discuss what this meant. He said the blank brass and the live 5.56 brass are made on the same machines, from the same cup, just that the 5.56 brass goes through more thorough inspection. Basically he compared the M200 blank brass to the softer civilian brass on the market. He said reloading blank brass cases has been done before, its not recommended with the availability of regular brass, but it can be done, just start up low and watch for signs. (Ejector/extractor swipes and loose primers like you will see with soft brass.) And he also said the blank brass will quickly split at the neck since it is not annealed as far down as regular 5.56 brass. He said its reloadable, but they cannot recommend it since they do not inspect the blank brass a much as the live 5.56 brass. So it is possible, but he said reload at your own risk. ETA- So in a nut shell, M200 blank brass is like civilian brass. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2012 11:15:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Good work, sounds like legalese when they say don't do it.
|
|
|
|
AL, USA
|
Posted: 2/10/2012 2:32:03 AM EDT
[#26]
OP, this is a very informative thread. Thank you for the information.
|
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 2/11/2012 9:29:14 PM EDT
[#27]
Very Very Very informative write up.....Now i have another option for 300 BLK brass when i start reloading.....
Thanks for your efforts and sharing. |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 12/16/2012 11:29:12 AM EDT
[#28]
You know, just when I think I have seen it all on AR-15.com, I run across a thread like this! This site is a veritable GOLD MINE of information! I cannot thank you all enough for providing your time, expertise, and loads of patience for folks like me who are basically your students. You do more than teach, you also keep us safe! Sincerely, thanks again!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/16/2012 4:00:32 PM EDT
[#29]
Awesome thread OP!
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/4/2013 5:03:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Originally Posted By BadLuther:
Awesome thread OP! Agreed. |
|
|
|
UT, USA
|
Posted: 1/4/2013 6:00:26 PM EDT
[#31]
It makes sense that all brass would be the same. Having two different kinds of brass would provide very little cost savings if any at all (unless, as someone already mentioned the metal was rare like in WWII) and it would create a lot of extra work and danger of getting the two mixed up.
Did the cases with the weird ring at the bottom have any notable difference when you cut them? Wondering if the wall was thinner there. I have a lot of .308 brass that looks like that. |
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 1/30/2013 7:31:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Thanks OP I've got some blanks to reload now!
|
|
|
MT, USA
|
Posted: 1/30/2013 8:28:57 PM EDT
[#33]
^^^^^^^^
And we have a winner! Chop the brass neck to correct length, run thru .300BO sizer, trim to finish. Fire once and then anneal the necks. Even shooting standard pressure loads, in the .300 they should hold up for several firings. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/30/2013 8:49:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Originally Posted By silentrebellion:
It makes sense that all brass would be the same. Having two different kinds of brass would provide very little cost savings if any at all (unless, as someone already mentioned the metal was rare like in WWII) and it would create a lot of extra work and danger of getting the two mixed up. Did the cases with the weird ring at the bottom have any notable difference when you cut them? Wondering if the wall was thinner there. I have a lot of .308 brass that looks like that. that 'ring' is signs of case / head seperation about to occur....should be tossed to the recycle pile at that point. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/31/2013 9:29:43 AM EDT
[#35]
Originally Posted By Scorpius:
Originally Posted By silentrebellion:
It makes sense that all brass would be the same. Having two different kinds of brass would provide very little cost savings if any at all (unless, as someone already mentioned the metal was rare like in WWII) and it would create a lot of extra work and danger of getting the two mixed up. Did the cases with the weird ring at the bottom have any notable difference when you cut them? Wondering if the wall was thinner there. I have a lot of .308 brass that looks like that. that 'ring' is signs of case / head seperation about to occur....should be tossed to the recycle pile at that point. He was referring to the cannelure, and per the OP's posts there was no abnormal case thinning associated with the case cannelure. |
|
|
|
CA, USA
|
Posted: 2/20/2013 10:02:06 AM EDT
[#36]
Wow, what an informative thread. Thank you WI57 for taking the time to be so thorough with the experiment and doing a great job of documenting everything. Sorry if that's too much ass kissing. A couple of questions.
Are the primers the same as loaded ammo? If you were able to cut the blank instead of firing it, do you think the primers could be used for loaded ammo? Also, do you think the powder could be used for anything? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/20/2013 2:32:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Originally Posted By skoolie:
Wow, what an informative thread. Thank you WI57 for taking the time to be so thorough with the experiment and doing a great job of documenting everything. Sorry if that's too much ass kissing. A couple of questions. Are the primers the same as loaded ammo? If you were able to cut the blank instead of firing it, do you think the primers could be used for loaded ammo? Also, do you think the powder could be used for anything? They have standard primers. BUT... They are also crimped in, so punching them out to use to load OTHER cases is "not recommended" to say the least. I've punched out lots of live primers, but NEVER crimped in primers, and I think it is a VERY bad idea. Blank powder is a) non-canister, b) freakishly fast burning, and c) "mystery" powder. The ONLY safe use of this stuff after you disassemble ANY blank is to fertilize your lawn. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/23/2013 10:23:49 AM EDT
[#38]
Great thread , thanks to my golf ball launcher I have a lot of blanks.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/24/2013 10:53:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Great thread! Thanks OP for all of the time and effort you put into solving this riddle.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/25/2013 4:42:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Very well-written report OP. Thanks.
Although watching you shoot cracked-neck brass over and over makes me feel pretty stupid for all the factory re-man ammo that I pulled down because of hairline neck cracks. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/25/2013 6:15:30 PM EDT
[#41]
very good job op
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/26/2013 11:43:23 AM EDT
[#42]
Very informative research to test the standard internet myth. Thanks for taking the time to do this OP.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2013 9:53:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: coug91]
[#43]
Bumping for good info. Knowledge is wealth; share the wealth that is ARFCOM.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2013 12:52:37 AM EDT
[#44]
Just ran across this great post. Thanks for the info sir.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2013 1:36:34 PM EDT
[#45]
Has anyone figured out a way to cut these into viable cases while still retaining the live primer? 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2013 9:46:41 PM EDT
[#46]
Originally Posted By _DR: Has anyone figured out a way to cut these into viable cases while still retaining the live primer? The HF mini chop saw will leave the primers live... but you still have to form the brass (lube contamination may be an issue). |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2013 10:18:43 PM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By coug91:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Has anyone figured out a way to cut these into viable cases while still retaining the live primer? The HF mini chop saw will leave the primers live... but you still have to form the brass (lube contamination may be an issue). Ummm, you think it's safe to cut live ammo with a power saw? |
|
|
|
KS, USA
|
Posted: 5/13/2013 10:33:07 PM EDT
[#48]
Originally Posted By DyNo541:
Originally Posted By coug91:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Has anyone figured out a way to cut these into viable cases while still retaining the live primer? The HF mini chop saw will leave the primers live... but you still have to form the brass (lube contamination may be an issue). Ummm, you think it's safe to cut live ammo with a power saw? Field report time. That is all that I have ran thru my 300BO so far is cut down live blanks. I haven't *yet* had any problems with the powder going boom. I believe that the brass is soft enough to not cause any sparks. I also tilt the case up so the powder stays away from the heat caused by the blade. The primers now. I have had 5 dud primers out of roughly 75 rounds. I think that is a combo of spraying the now opened cases with lanolin lube and a soft hammer spring :/ I would recommend spraying the cases first before you trim. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2013 10:51:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gamma762]
[#49]
Originally Posted By WI57:
And just for giggles I cut up a .50, want to guess what one is the blank case... http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gi57/Blanks/P1302100.jpg And wouldn't you know... (But the rose crimp on the .50 brass would prevent loading as live since it is basically the same as a live .50 case with a rose crimp) http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gi57/Blanks/P1302101.jpg Isn't the .416 Barrett based on a cut down .50bmg case? Wonder if the 50 blanks could be resized into 416 Barrett cases? Not that 416 is all that common, just a curiosity more than anything. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2013 1:09:08 AM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By DyNo541: Originally Posted By coug91: Originally Posted By _DR: Has anyone figured out a way to cut these into viable cases while still retaining the live primer? The HF mini chop saw will leave the primers live... but you still have to form the brass (lube contamination may be an issue). Ummm, you think it's safe to cut live ammo with a power saw? |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
