Ok, guys…I have been lurking around here for a long time while I was saving money and researching ARs.  Now that I have saved about enough funds to do this build, I am excited to get started.  I already have a few items that I intend to use.  My background is that I have been shooting for over 30 years…primarily hunting and precision rifles with the occasional shotgun and pistol thrown in for kicks.  To me, accuracy is extremely important so I am hoping this build will be at the worst 1 MOA (5 shot group at 100 yds).  My intended use for this gun is plinking, the range, and maybe it will replace one of my current home defenses guns.  My goals for this build are:  accuracy, reliability, minimal recoil, and relatively easy to maintain.  Finally, like almost all of my other rifles, this gun will have a dedicated suppressor (plan to direct thread an Omega which is currently in jail).  When I first get this build complete, I will be using an old scope 3x9x32 that I have sitting in the safe as well as BUIS.  After I have shot this for a while and learn my preferences, I will likely convert to a 1-4x or 1-6x scope.
AR15.com has proven to me that it has the most knowledgeable members in when it comes to ARs, so before I begin my build, I would like to hear thoughts from the hive on where I am going right or wrong.  Here’s my tentative build plan:
Mega Forged Upper
Mega Forged Lower
Single stage 3.5lb trigger which I already have.  I just don’t like two stage triggers so at least for now, this is not something I will change my mind on.
WMB NiBx BCG
Gas Buster Charge Handle
Vltor VRA-A5 Buffer and EMOD stock
Rainer .223 Wylde 16” Mid-length (SS) Match – Rock River Creek blank
Seekins P.A. KeyMod 15” FF rail
MicroMoa Govnah (3 position)
Pmags x 10
DD LPK
I haven’t decided on the grip yet.
Thanks in advance for your help.

If you want the NIB bcg because you think it looks cool I would skip it. I bought a NiB for my suppressed AR and after like 300 rounds the entire thing is stained black. I doubt it has much advantage as far as reliability goes either. Mine is WMD as well.

Thank you for the input.  My only reason was they were supposed to be easier to clean and I thought since build up will likely be worse with a suppressor (even with an AGB) so it may help with reliability since they are supposed to require less lube.   I definitely put functionality aheaf of looks.  Do you believe it will actually hurt the reliability and should just stick with phosphate?

I doubt it will make a difference either way with reliability ,and you will not notice a difference in cleaning it either. I have shot thousands of suppressed rounds through phosphate and don't see a difference in the NiB, gets just as filthy and cleaning is the same. I have never had a malfunction through an ar due to having a dirty gun and doubt you will either unless you are trying to see how many rounds you can shoot before a malfunction.

If you can get the NiB for a better price then go for it otherwise I would find a reliable phosphate and roll with that. My NiB is as black as a phosphate after very few rounds sadly.

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences.  That is exactly the type of information I was hoping to get from this thread. The BCG is something I have gone back and forth on as some swear by NiB and some say it is waste of money and might hurt reliability.  Again, I appreciate your input.

Not to go off topic, but who is your class III dealer? If you don't mind me asking.

IM sent.

If you want to save some $$ you can go with standard forged upper and lowers. If you're a person who doesn't like the wiggle, you can just go to your local FFL and dig through all the uppers/lowers he has to find 2 that go nicely together.


Skip the NiBx BCG. Just get a Toolcraft phosphate one (I think Cryptic Coatings does their commercial sales?). I have one NIB BCG and the "easy cleaning" only really happened when it was new while shooting unsuppressed. I have also grown to learn you don't really need to clean a BCG that well. Just wipe the outside of the BCG off with a paper towel then re-apply oil. It won't ever really truly come clean this way, but it hasn't affect reliability for me at all; the oil is the important part.




You can use a standard spring and buffer since you're using a adjustable gas block. The Vltor-A5 was used primarily by people before adjustable gas blocks were around. I use a standard spring and H2 buffer in my MK18 + SF SOCOM RC with an adjustable gas block. I went with the H2 since I put other uppers on my SBR lower which don't have adjustable gas blocks.




Definitely get an adjustable gas block - way less gas in the face. I use SLR, I like it. Never tried the Govnah but people do like it. They work differently. I don't know if you'll be able to access the adjustments of the Govnah with a 15" rail - the block will be about 5-6" inside the rail. Something to think about.




DD LPK is the best I've ever used (DPMS sucks, some of the parts were poorly cast and broke). Try the stock trigger before you spent he $$ on an aftermarket - mine was great so I never upgraded it.




Oh finally, you may find you have to leave the suppresser threaded on for repeatable POI. There are other suppressors that have an indexed mount (like SF) that ensure the POI is the same every time. Depending on how far you shoot and your exact barrel/suppressor/ammo combo you may not have a problem taking the Omega on and off, but if it is a problem later, the solution is to leave it on permanently or re-zero overtime you put it on.




Let's go Mountaineers!


 

If you really want a fantastic bolt carrier group, buy a quality mil-spec one and send it to Robar in Arizona to have it coated in NP3 or NP3 Plus. Amazing stuff. It makes NIB look like a joke. It's Teflon-infused nickel, extremely slick and easy to clean, never loses slickness, and about 10X as corrosion resistant as NIB I believe.

Great folks to work with too.

Wilson Combat also sells a complete NP3 plated BCG as well.

It's always great to hear from a fellow WVU fan.
Thanks for detailed analysis of this build.  You guys have definitely convinced me that I need to rethink the BCG.
Regarding the suppressor....This is different than any of my others because weight/length was never a concern because I am usually shooting from a bench or prone with a bipod.  I knew for how I plan to use this gun, I need to try to keep both weight and length down and the Omega seemed like the perfect fit given its respectable noise reduction for its size.  The one thing I didn't like was the Qd.  I like the MADDs system a lot better.  I think I am going to make use solely on this gun so I don't have to worry about POI shift and direct thread it with a crush washer.  Even though this gun won't be my go to when I want to shoot long distances, it would be very annoying to re-zero every time I took it off.
The main reason I chose the Micromoa was I thought it would be reliable since there isn't a set screw.  Of course, I need to get the size right for needs for the adjustments.  I believe with the rail I chose, it can be adjusted by sliding a bullet between the grooves on the rail.  
I am work and have to get back to it, but I wanted to thank you for your input and would like to pick your brain a little more on the Vltor.

Only comment I am making is that Robar sells the carriers and bolts (in various combinations) directly.  NP3 or NP3+.

My Rubber City Armorey BCG has plenty of rounds through it and for the most part looks brand new. Excellent customer service, nice guys in person. Food for thought. I've always been pleased with Mega, so no worries there. I also really like the Syrac Gen II adj. gas block. Much easier to come by and cheaper than the Govnah. Only not nearly as cool of a name.

I checked the link and they do look great.  Have you run one?  IMHO if it holds up and performs, that would be a worthwhile investment.  The biggest thing that concerns me is I don't know anyone who has run one.  There was a thread on this very topic not that long ago where a member with several thousand posts swore by a little known BCG and convinced a few people to give them a try and they turned out not to hold up worth a damn.  This certainly may not be the case with Robar, but I would like to know about actual experience if you have any with them.  Again, thanks for the link and info.

Regarding the Vltor...the four main reasons I was leaning that way was they are supposed to reduce recoil, less wear and tear with a longer dwell time, flexibility, and most of the people who have one seem to be really happy with them.  Recoil is something I never worried about before because my shooting was always one shot at a time (bolt gun)...shooting at paper or steel targets or a ground hog/coyote /deer.  The thing that makes me want an AR is now I can shoot at multiple targets quickly (plus dumping 10 shots or so very quickly is just plain fun) so I am thinking the less the recoil, the quicker the follow shots can be.  Granted, all of the ARs I have shot to date were straight out of the box carbines and they had almost no recoil, but I thought it might be worth it.  Assuming I really like shooting ARs, I may wind up building a 300 Blackout upper and use the same lower....or maybe eventually 6.5 Creedmor (not sure I would be able to use the same lower on that one though but I might use the buffer).  Basically, who knows where this first AR will lead since it will be my first, but I thought by going with the Vltor, I would leave more options open.  All that being said, would you still recommend just buying each buffer for each specific setup?

I understand where you are coming from on the trigger, but the fact is I am spoiled.  About 15 years ago, I shot a custom trigger and fell in love with them.  I think it was a Timney (I know they don't seem to be real popular on this forum).  Anyways, I eventually ran into a guy that does a very similar setup and I have them on my favorite two long range guns (a 22-250 and 300 Win Mag).  Now it even bothers me shooting the factory trigger on Savage Varmiter (which is a pretty good trigger in most peoples opinion), Model 700, M77, or T/C.

Glad to hear you agree on the DD LPK.

Thanks again.

Thanks for the input.  I haven't ran across a lot of feedback on RCM BCG, but what I have seen has been positive.  I guess it is a blessing that there seems to be so many good products out there it is tough to decide on a lot of this stuff.  Most of what I have seen on the Syrac Gen II has also been positive.  Like I said, so many good options these days.

 
Your suppressor will do more to reduce felt recoil than any buffer/spring combo. Longer dwell time isn't an issue with 16" mid lengths. I'm not sure what "flexibility" means. And try not to buy too much of the internet hype. I did, and wasted a bit of $$ when I started out


The answer for which buffer: it depends.


300 BLK was designed by Dr. Robert Silvers and AAC should be considered the "authority" on it. Their website for specs which vary by barrel length.


Not sure about 6.5 Creedmor. My advice is to pick the heaviest buffer defined by the designer, not people on the internet, of all the combinations (along with standard carbine RE and spring) and then use your adjustable gas block on the 5.56 upper and 6.5 Creedmor upper to tune. Note: 300 BLK was designed specifically not to need an adjustable gas block.

When I said flexibility, I was referring to different setups/ammo that would change the gas....suppressed vs unsuppressed, .556/.223 vs .300 blackout, etc.  I kinda got what you were saying in your other post, but this post made it clear.  My way of thinking was to try to adjust for different gas by adjusting the buffers and using the AGB as tool to help.  You advocate adjusting the gas going to the BCG so that the system will operate as it was originally designed to.  That makes a lot of sense.  I assume that approach would allow for a more reliable setup.  I am not sure why I was approaching solutions for different gas bas-awkwards, guess I read too many threads on buffers and not enough on AGBs.  In any case, thanks for the help.  I thought I had done all my research for this upcoming build, but based on this thread, I am going to be making several changes....and that is exactly why I started this thread.  Hearing from people with actual experience with a similar setup is a lot better than me trying to mix and match parts based on what I have read on different setups/goals especially considering I have no experience on the AR platform.  Again, thanks for your help.

Not a problem. Just to further elaborate, be aware that "less felt recoil" and "rugged reliability" are achieved with opposite components.

If you look at 3 gun setups, the guys are all running those weird low mass BCG with adjustable gas blocks set to barely lock the bolt back. The result is a gun that can start to malfunction if the gas pressure bled off the system drops slightly (different kind of ammo, significant drop in temperature, gun gets really dirty, etc.).


By contrast, the M4 and its carbine gas system is "over-gassed" in that the amount of gas pressure is exceptionally high at standard operating conditions. They do this because the guns are supposed to run with any ammo, at -30 F, dirty as heck, etc.


If you want to get really technical, the entire operating system of an AR15 can be modeled/described as a "spring-mass-damper" system. If you do look at the differential equation of motion, you can see how increasing the mass (buffer) decreases the acceleration of the BCG, etc.

Makes me want to get a Halo!

This. Very hard to beat combination. NiB, in my experience, is worthless, especially since it alters the dimensions, I don't care how "thin" one claims the coating to be. Of course, if it's so thin then guess what's going to happen to it? And, yes, it stains like IMMEDIATELY, so forget that nice shiny BCG after just a few rounds. Nitride is the way if you don't want to stick with phosphate (and it's hard to argue against the track record of phosphate).





I have built MEGA/RCA/Syrac AR combos in 556, 308 and 7mm08 and everyone one of them just fires and fires and fires. No muss, no fuss, no threads on arfcom.



FWIW, I find that two clicks on the Syrac is about the right adjustment amount to go between suppressed and unsuppressed and have brass landing at 3-4 oclock. You could just as easily not even bother and just let it run a tiny bit hotter when suppressed. Your gas would still be properly dialed in.





Also agree on no need for fancy buffer setups if you have an adjustable gas block. Once your gas is right, no need to "solve" it elsewhere.





-Stooxie





 

OK, it sounds like standard buffer it is.  

Should I start with an H2 or ST.

A standard buffer has no designation, meaning "standard carbine weight" of 2.9oz. H2 is 4.7oz, and the Spike's ST-T2 is 4.1oz. If you don't have an adjustable gas block then the only way to counteract the gas pressure and regulate cycle speed is to add mass to the system, usually with a heavier buffer. If you can regulate the gas flow at the block you can tune it down to operate whatever buffer you've got.



So a recommendation would be to start with a good old "standard" buffer and tune your gas block from there.



Here's a possible exception: if you have a gas block with just a few positions, i.e. Noveske switchblock, Adams Arms gas block, something that has "full, suppressed, off" then you might still want a heavier buffer because you don't really have the ability to tune, you just have some gross settings. --Don't get me wrong on that, I have both of those systems and the Syrac on different guns and I like them all.



-Stooxie

p.s. for the sake of completeness there are consequences to going TOO light, i.e. light weight buffer, low mass BCG, low gas flow. Good for competition, not so good for making sure you have enough forward momentum to strip a cruddy round off a full magazine in a gun that hasn't been cleaned in a while. You know, for all of us who are in danger of being in that situation.



 

Again, thanks for all of the input.  I thought I had a pretty good understanding of AGBs and buffers from reading a bunch of threads on these subjects but there have been several things I have learned from this thread.  I appreciate everyone's input.

So just to make sure, does everyone agree on my choice of barrels?

I shoot suppressed 100% of the time and I must say I disagree with most on this thread so far NIB BCG is the way to go. I use fireclean and a Fail Zero NIB BCG and it cleans just by wiping it with a paper towel or cloth. I have the same BCG in both my 5.56 and 300blk ARs and it works equally as well with both.

One suggestion that I didn't do correct on my first build was not going SBR. Not sure what the laws are where you live but SBR is the way to go. I started with an 18 inch then, 16 then, 14.5 with pinned muzzle, now I am at 11.5 on my 5.56 and 10.2 on my 300 blk. They are perfect length now with suppressors attached.

Cool, man! Different things work for different people. I will absolutely second the use of Fireclean, I have the same experience in it's ability to keep carbon from sticking.



I also second the previous post about Nitride 4150 barrels, and if it's dimpled that's a big plus. A sub MOA guarantee is priceless.



-Stooxie



 

That is an amazing 10 shot group at 100 yds.  In a setup like that, I (the nut behind the trigger) would definitely be the limitation on accuracy. I knew that CMV can be pretty accurate these days, but I had no idea it could be that good.  Was that Molon?

I use Fireclean already agree it is definitely worth it.  I know that SS won't hold up like 4150 CMV but always leaned towards SS for the accuracy, but if groups like the one posted before are possible with 4150, it is hard to argue against it.

Thanks for the input on the NiB.  It is always helpful to hear from both sides of the coin....even when does make trying to decide on something that much harder.

Coming from my background of not owning another rifle with the barrel shorter than 24 inches, 16" seems really short to me.  I will keep that in mind if ultimately I decide that shorter barrels are for me and skip the pinned 14.5" and just go straight to a 11.5/12.5".

I understand where you are coming from. Just remember you are going to have a heavy suppressor sitting on the end of that 16 inch barrel. Just so you know you really don't lose much in the form of accuracy between 16 and say 11.5 you will lose a small amount of velocity but you will still be able to reach out to 500 yards possibly farther.

The velocity difference is in the 10-15% range, but the OP should be careful to understand that the effect on terminal energy is much greater, between 20% and 30%. Doesn't matter for punching paper but if the intent is to shoot at live animals then I would just recommend a look at the ballistics.





I have a 12.5" 300BLK that I use for deer hunting and there was plenty of difference in velocity+energy between 8.2, 10.2 and 12.5" barrels. This is with Barnes 110gr TSX bullets @ 2200fps. When I hit deer with them at 100 yards they definitely die but they always get some yards in first. When I hit them with 7mm-08 they are DRT. That's the difference between 800 lbs of energy delivered (300BLK) and 2,100 (7mm-08).





Just sayin'! I definitely agree that the weight and length of the suppressor is an important factor.





-Stooxie





 

I definitely understand where you are coming from.  I have always believed that I owe it to the animals I am hunting that they don't feel a thing.  Most people tell me I am crazy but my deer rifle is actually a 26" barrel with a SpecWar 300 Win Mag.....and the deer in WV are not that big....no cornfields, etc.  This build won't be for deer but I may use it for cyotes or ground hogs.  The latter if I can get it accurate 400-500 yds out of it.

I thought I would give this thread a little update.  All parts are now ordered and I am hoping to have this gun completed in the next 2-3 weeks. Based on the recommendations you guys gave me and/or if I came across a really good deal, I did make some changes to the original build list.  First, I ended up going with forged Aero upper and lower.  Another change is I went with was a BCM Milspec buffer tube, H buffer and a Mapgul CTS-M.  I substituted the BCM spring for a Springco White spring.  I went with Troy BUIS and I a LaRue 104 mount.  Finally, I decided not to direct thread the Omega (I am going to use the ASR).  Since I am not a huge fan of the ASR, I would prefer not to have to remove the Omega during transport.   Does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonably priced, quality gun case that has enough room to allow me to  transport my gun with the suppressor on?

Now I can finally provide an update and range report.  I did make some changes along the way so this was my final build list:
Aero Freedom (2nd gen) upper and lower
BCM mil-spec buffer tube
Springco (white)
Hogue grip
PSA LPK
BTE single stage trigger (3.5 lbs)
WMB NiBx BCG
Gas Buster Charge Handle
Magul CTS – mil spec
Rainer .223 Wylde 16” Middy SS – Rock Creek Blank
Seekins Keymod 15” FF rail
MicroMOA Govnah (3 position)
Magul Pmags
VTAC padded upgraded sling
BCM Keymod QD sling attachment
Danger Industries QD sling mounts
LaRue 104 scope mount
Troy BUIS
Omega/Specwar muzzle device
Omega (still in jail for ~ another 2 months)
Vortex Strike Eagle (on backorder)
To summarize, using a friend’s tools, I built the lower about 1 month ago.  Pictures are included.  I had decided that I wanted to stick with the Govnah 3 position so it needed to have the adverse setting (which is based on the actual port size of the barrel) drilled into the selector.  Although Amphibian was extremely helpful, I figured since this was my first time messing with a GB of any kind (all my guns that I have worked on are bolts), I got in touch with Citizen Arms (Steve Adelmann) and with the EXCELLENT customer service I received from him, I ultimately decided to let him build the complete upper including installing AGB (and drilling the adverse setting) and muzzle device.  As it turns out, my local FFL had ordered my Omega with the standard threads on the muzzle device (5/8-24).  Of course, I needed the 1/2-28.  Thankfully SilencerCo exchanged the muzzle device at no charge (which I was grateful for).  That did cause a little bit of a delay because that was the last thing I shipped to Citizen Arms.  Anyways, Steve completed everything and he did break-in the barrel while he tested the upper to ensure everything was working properly.  Everything was G2G.  He tested the upper with his Omega (not mine) since mine is still in jail and his lower.  I was thrilled with the results.  The barrel is not completely broke in (it has about 50 rounds through it so far), but with various handloads using a Bushnell Elite Tactical 3x12x44 off of a bench, the 5-shot groups at 100 yards were between 0.55 to 0.69.  Those results are posted with upper pictures.    My goal was 1 MOA for this build, so I am ecstatic with those results.  That is better than all of my off-the-shelf bolts and is even close to some of my modified bolts.  If I had known an AR could be this precise, I would have been built one a long time ago.  The upper shipped today…can’t wait to get it to the range!!!!

Can anyone tell me how to get the pictures to view?  I thought I had read if you use Photobucket (I created an account just to post these) then use can use the link from each individual picture and post them.  That is what I did, but the pictures don't come up.

Get a black nitride carrier. Very easy to clean. And very durable.

 
Big +1 to that.


-Stooxie

For images copy the "Direct" link from Photobucket and put the link between image tags {img} link {/img} replace { with [

The BCG is the one item (so far) that I would have done differently.  I came across a special on that particular one so I bought it.  The stakes did not even touch the screws so they were redone by Steve.  I didn't say anything in my posts because I didn't contact WMD about it.  I figure they would have made it right, but I didn't want to lose any additional time.  I have already bought a PSA Premuim as a backup.  I don't have a means a measuring the backspace (although it shouldn't be a problem since it is new), but I will swap it if I run into any problems with the WMD.

grn_zx6r thanks for the help on posting pics.  I can see the pics in your response but not in my original posts.

I should be getting the upper on Tuesday or Wednesday.  I will try to get some close up pics under the rail and post them up.

No problem i changed the links. You want the links to end in .jpg

Today I did get to try this thing out at the range.  It was starting to get dark when I got there so I was pretty limited on time.  I did manage to shoot 20 rounds and then clean the barrel (to complete the break-in) before I had to leave.  I will try to get few pics up of the groups and a few of the Govnah.  I know 3 shot groups aren’t best option to determine precision, but with my limited time and trying to get my BUIS sited in, that is all I could do.  Keep in mind with when looking at the groups, the last time I shot iron sites on a rifle was over 20 years ago.  I have never shot HK style sites until today.  I also had no bags.  I did rest the front of the rail on a tactical bag.  Target at 50 yrds.  I was shooting Federal Eagle 50 grain.  Considering all of those factors, I was happy with the results.

OP, I think you'll be glad that you went with an adjustable gas block.  I have the same barrel and, unless the porting was changed, it's got a pretty big gas port (mine measured out about .086").  Ejection with .223 and 5.56 pressure ammo unsuppressed was at around the 1:00 position and it had a pretty good thump in the recoil department compared to other midlength guns I've assembled.  I am in the process of reconfiguring that gun to reduce the gas drive so that I can run it suppressed better and will be swapping over an SLR Sentry from another upper.  I'm pretty excited to see how it works out.

I do agree that it looks like it will be a fantastically accurate barrel.  Mine has printed cold-bore groups of around a half inch at 100 yds (5 shots).

I am glad you brought up recoil.  I have limited experience shooting .223/.556 and don't remember much recoil from them, but it seemed like there was some (all I have ever shot before this were carbines).  The two most common guns I have been shooting lately are my  .270 and 300 Win Mag (mostly the .300) so that may be giving me a little bias although I did shoot my  .22-250 a lot this spring, just not recently.  In any case, I couldn't believe how little recoil there was.  It honestly didn't feel much different than my .22.  I actually did all the shooting in suppressed mode on Govnah to see how it would work.  On shot 19 I had a FTE, but otherwise it ran fine.  I suspect if I lube a little more, once it is broke in I may get away with running the suppressed setting all the time (unless it is weak ammo).  I am definitely glad I did an AGB.

I finally got those pics uploaded.

I just realized hadn't posted any pics of the final product (minus the scope and suppressor).