OK, I have this AR that I built as an A1 clone (as I understood it at the time) c.1989-90.  It was built as cheap as I could, because I was doing the starving student thing at the time.  At that time, the military was still in transition from the A1 to the A2 and lots of A1-configuration parts new & surplus were around.

The upper & lower are a matched set bought direct from the manufacturer (PWA, who I understand to have been reputable) via a LGS, but is anodized black not the authentic A1 grey.  The barrel assembly, according to the markings, is a Colt chrome-lined 1:12 bought (IIRC) from Sarco.  IIRC, the bolt carrier group came from Sarco as well, and the carrier has Smith Industries markings.  The furniture is more recently acquired new old stock set, replacing the ratty beat up stuff it originally wore that was probably military scrap (fasteners missing on the heat shields, etc...).  Most of the rest of the parts came from an outfit that back in the day ran a big Shotgun News ad (this was before the internet, kiddies) and made the rounds on the Midwest gun show circuit, and later acquired a rep for selling a combination of GI parts boosted from NG armories and absolute crap parts sourced from Pakistan - so I don't trust 'em.

A final consideration is that all my other AR's have 1:7 barrels, and my go to ammo is 62gr, so it's the odd man out.

So, I want to rebuild it.  The base plan is to rebuild it as a better A1 clone, replacing all the suspect parts with new ones from reputable vendors, refinishing the upper & lower in the correct grey, but going to a skinny 20" chrome-lined 1:7 (I recently ran across those for sale, but I already bought a 20" BCM A2 barrel with the intent of having somebody like ADCO re-profile it).  

However, recently I've been hearing the call of converting it to a (pseudo) XM177 clone.  Ideally, I'd want to do that with a 14.5" skinny barrel and a permed slip-over fake moderator to bring it to the requisite non-SBR length.  I guess I could save the 20" BCM for some other project.  Dealing with the muzzle device is potentially the trickiest part, but if nobody makes what I'm looking for then I know a local smith who specializes in AR builds and is a retired machinist, so it isn't beyond the realm of reason that he could whip up something special in that department.

So, the question before the house is - A1 or XM177?

I say A1 unless you're going to SBR it plus parts will be easier to find and cheaper. You are already bothered by it not being correct, have you priced a Colt vinyl acetate stock recently?

in the land of retro goodness either one would be great, go with what you like best and build it,..i would start out with whats not going to break the bank building it by buying the correct but least amount of parts needed and then you can always change it up later on or buy more parts along the way to build your next one!..

Vaseline does something to black anodizing, no?  But even anodizing can be stripped & reanodized - or Duracoated.  Probably not cost effective.  The receivers could be Duracoated - think some have done that to get matching shades.

Vote to repair original broken surplus furniture, Duracoat receivers, build new A2 w/ collapsible stock & rails from A2 bbl, & build M231 replica w/ modified SPEX wire stock & Aimpoint.  

To be clear, the furniture on it now is new old stock & GTG.  I replaced it sometime in the last decade.  When I built it c. 1989 is when I used the ratty surplus stuff.

I already have a new BCM bolt carrier group that I'll use with either option, relegating the one of mysterious origin in it now to a spare.  I also have a Colt trigger group taken out of a 6920 when I put a Geissele in that.  So, there are just a few more parts from the shady vendor that would need replacing.

Since either option involves a barrel with M4 feed ramps, I'd probably want to have those cut into the upper - ideally before re-anodizing it grey.

So, the difference is...

A1 clone - turn down the BCM A2 barrel to A1 profile & refinish, mount a non-F-marked FSB & other barrel group parts (possibly taken off the existing 1:12 barrel group, possibly new).

XM177 clone - new 14.5" barrel, mount a non-F-marked FSB & other barrel group parts, come up with a fake moderator that will function from the legal standpoint as an A2X flash suppressor and perm it, new carbine parts - buffer tube*, buffer*, buffer spring*, buttstock, gas tube*, handguards.

(* = might replace in the A1 scenario anyway because IIRC they came from the shady vendor - have to think about whether they could be cheap crap in any way that could reasonably affect reliability)

You don't need feed ramps cut into the upper, the only time you can run into issues is using a upper with ramps and a barrel extension without.

Good to know.

Found this.

"OK" as distinct from "Good" would imply that optimum reliability might be to get the ramps cut in the upper anyway, particularly since I believe ADCO will do that and either option probably involves sending the barrel to ADCO anyway (making the A2 20" skinny or perming the fake moderator on the 14.5").

I would not cut feedramps in the upper, period. There is simply no reason to - especially if you are just reprofiling an A2 barrel - which is what I assume you are talking about. Pictures would help us guide you. decent 603 uppers should remain as is IMO. They are getting a little harder to find, and are 'historic'. Frankly I'd leave it alone, buy some 55 gr ammo and live with it as is.

I think Morg has the right idea. After reading your post i was thinking what is there to change?, sounds pretty good as it is. Pics would help, but it sounds like you have a great clone already. As for alternative versions, thats just RBRD telling you to build another one. And another....

OK, let's see about pics...

The whole rifle:



Close up on the receiver:



Close up on the lower markings - I have read that PWA is considered to have made a good product, and this is well pre-ban (since I built it in early 1990 at the latest):



Other side of the receiver - my understanding is that the fwd assist is correct but the tapered slip ring should be flat:



Upper forge markings - I've read these mean Capco / Martin Marietta:



Barrel markings - autofocus kinda failed me here but it reads "C MP B" - my research indicates these markings were used by Colt in the early 70's - The C means Colt, the M means Magnetic particle inspected, the P for Proof fired, and the B for chrome Bore.



OK, so externally it looks pretty good, my main beef the anodizing color on the receiver.  It is internally that bothers me, since I don't trust the reliability of parts from a shady vender.

Wanting to change to a 1:7 barrel is mainly logistics - all my other AR's are 1:7 and one of them wears the ACOG model they make for the Marines with the reticle calibrated for M855, and I use M855 for practice,  zeroing with & keeping Mk 318 (which has the same trajectory) for the contingency of serious use.  So, having the one rifle that needs special ammo is a pain.

Beautiful rifle my man. From pics looks like a true A1 profile lower which automatically makes it better than most, mine included, that are A2 or modified A2 receivers. No need to change.

On barrel, blaster ammo is all 55 gr, and at normal distances shoots within an inch or two. Assuming barrel can shoot both. I would just get 62gr green tip to stash for your 1 in 7 and buy some cheaper 55gr blaster ammo for your A1. No new barrel and cheapest. If it really becomes the zombie apocalypse, youll be able to hits targets within a reasonable range even with 62gr in a 1/12. Maybe not 200 yards but scary up close would be fine none the less.

On color.. You can pay to have re-annodized. Would be perfect. Or you could leave black and would be perfect. Some were. Or you could spray it with an airbrush using duracoat, norells or alumahyde ii. These give you park gray, durable AND reversable if you need to take it back off. While im a rattle can fan, its not ok for this... Rattle can your beat to hell sandbox build, not your A1. You dont want your A1 to look all crappy especially since its black and not aluminum that would be showing through.

My vote is keep as is A1 and build more. Good luck! Post pics!

Thanks!  Yes, it is a true A1 profile.  In the late 80's those were still commonly in production, as the A2 type was still pretty newfangled - not "adopted" by the Army until '86, and I'm sure it took years to buy enough to phase out the A1's.  So, at the time an A1 wasn't really "retro" yet.  I think Colt was still selling new SP1's with non-fwd assist uppers.  The intent of the build was to look like a Vietnam-era weapon, but again as cheap as possible.



From what I've read, Colt didn't switch to black until the 90's, and replacing the shady internals and the incorrect slip ring will require a lot of disassembly in any event.  So, might as well take everything off and send the upper & lower to US Anodizing for a color change.  

Odd thing on the barrel... I got it assembled as a unit with the FSB and barrel nut, slip ring & so forth already on.  The barrel markings are supposedly what Colt used 1970-74, so how did it get the tapered slip ring instead of a flat one?  Since I'd have to take the FSB off to get at the slip ring, I'm tempted to just go ahead and swap the barrel for a 1:7 and sell the current one as a unit to somebody wanting a correct 1:12.  I'm more concerned that aside from markings it looks correct than that it is internally correct (historically I mean - I remain concerned that some of the internals might be junk and want known quality parts in there).  After all, not actually being an M16 lower it can never be 100% correct, and the receiver markings are obviously way wrong, so barrel markings on a 1:7 skinny barrel won't matter next to that.



Well, I'm going to fix the suspect internals and probably the anodizing color in any event, but keep it an A1 is a valid choice.  However, I also want an XM177 clone, and building new from scratch means coming up with another A1 receiver set.  That seems harder these days.  Too bad I didn't buy several and save 'em for a rainy day back in the 80's...

Colt was switching to black even during the Vietnam war. You can see multiple pics of mismatched black and grey rifles if you check the 'Real Deal' thread. IMO since the twist of the barrel is the main issue, find yourself a replacement 1:7 barrel and a black slipring, change the barrel, the LPK and the BCG (since you keep telling us it has shoddy internals) and call it good. Consider using an ALG ACT trigger though. I'd get over it being black. If you want to nitpick, the PM forge code is a much later forge code - from the Philippines, and possibly OLY but why get too anal about it? Fix the barrel twist issue, sell off the barrel assy to pay for it and call it good.

ETA: You mentioned a carbine build. The Commando marked lower would be cool on that, so consider just finding a cheap A2 lower to put the upper on and use that lower for a carbine. One thing leads to another here in retroland, so don't be surprised if you find yourself with 6 or 8 retros a couple years from now.

I was unfamiliar with the ALG trigger until you mentioned it.  I have a couple of Colt factory trigger parts sets on hand, pulled from Colt 6920 lowers when I installed Geissele SSA's.  One of those was OK and the "meh", and the base plan was to put the OK one in the subject A1 clone.  What would the ALG trigger bring to the table, and what do they cost?

I like the idea of swapping the "Commando" labeled lower to the future XM177 clone.  I guess I could do that whenever I build the latter.  I imagine invoking that connection was what PWA had in mind when they named the product.  I think even back then carbine builds were probably more popular than rifle builds.

You don't have to pull the fsb in order to change the delta ring, pull the barrel and take it off with snap ring pliers.

Also, US anodizing isn't taking work right now and hasn't been for some time. I'd leave it black and build a gray XM177 or 653 with a 1/7 or 1/9 twist.

Hard to picture what you mean, the delta ring being solid and having smaller ID that the overall size of the FSB.



Hadn't heard that... that would be a bummer.  Especially considering that I'm now pretty into Morg's suggestion to move the A1 stuff onto a new lower and build the PWA lower into an XM177 clone.  Without refinishing, that appears to leave me with two mismatched pairs - one half black & one half grey.

The slip ring will come off the back, the barrel nut is too small but the delta ring, snap ring and weld spring will.


Many guys use Norelles Moly Resin in grayish black flat, it looks good and is pretty durable as long as you let it cure for awhile before assembling it.

Here is one I did, it needs to be redone because I got in a hurry and the prep work wasn't great.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11439/learn/

Something like this video shows.

I don't like receiver blocks, though. I would recommend a barrel vise block.

Alles klar - danke!

Actually looks pretty good in the photo

Hard to believe that with US Anodizing effectively gone the retro community hadn't found another grey anodizing vendor.  Does nobody else in the whole USA provide that service?

OK, mulling it over, I've decided to rebuild the current upper/lower receiver set as a non-NFA XM177E2 clone with a permed Brick moderator (off-the-shelf 12.5" barrel if that's long enough, otherwise cut down 14.5" barrel to the dimensions on Brick's drawing).  This kind of builds on Morg's idea about using the "Commando" marked lower for the shorty, but since that lower & upper came as a set from PWA why break them up?

I will transfer the parts from the current build (that are OK, plus replacements for the ones I don't trust) to a new retro upper & lower to be my A1 clone.  Looks like right now I can get a McKay A1-style lower in XM grey and a NDS A1-style upper in black (NDS site says they are backordered on the grey).

I found a place with an FFL that does anodizing (Kaehr Coatings), so I will see if they can redo the black receivers in XM grey (I guess I'll send them the grey McKay to try to match).  Fallback if that doesn't work out will be to have (only) the receivers cerakoted in the correct shade by a local outfit.

I'm going to concentrate first on just rounding up the parts.  I guess I'll post news, and pics when there is something to show, and of course questions back to this thread.

One question right off... camo?  Iin the various threads showing real Vietnam weapons, while clearly most were just the factory finish there are a few that have some sort of camo applied to the furniture.  I haven't see any pics from the era where they did anything with the receiver or barrel.  However, this is distinct from using EB Green (what we called it in the Navy) to attach a cleaning rod for poking out shell casings stuck in the early non-chromed chambers.  Mostly it is just one shade of green stripes or blobs applied so the factory black shows in between like a base coat, to break up the outline of the weapon.  Could be tape, but if so cut so as to not present any straight lines, and not EB Green because it is too smooth and more of a true green than olive drab.  If paint, probably applied with a brush since it lacks the overspray effect at the boundary typically associated with spray.  However, I did see one pic where it looks like a full blown tiger stripe job like on fatigues (although still only on the furniture).  That could have been done by cutting out the non-black parts from some tiger stripe cloth and gluing it to the furniture, or something like that (it looked too good to be rattlecan, but maybe some really meticulous guy painted it by hand with small brushes - who knows).

I'm thinking about doing something like the above on the XM clone, especially if I end up having to deal with a cerakote application as part of the project anyway.  The most basic would be just replicate the wavy green stripes on the furniture like some of the pics, although I'd be tempted to go for a more OD-ish shade.  Actually, with something that simple I'd probably just use masking tap & a rattlecan to put green wavy stripes on the handguard & stock (pretty easy to remove if I don't like it after all).  Would it be too overboard to have the whole thing (receiver/barrel & all) done in a tiger stripe pattern? Even just a simple black stripes on green base coat pattern?  If I put a base coat for a full camo job on the PWA receivers (rattle can or cerakote) I wouldn't care about what color the anodizing is underneath, but it wouldn't be all that authentic either (arguably worse than just leaving it black).  So, what do you think?,

Very nice!

I'm like James Tiberius Kirk. I don't care WHAT color she is!

Gaffers Tape

http://www.musson.com/gaffers-tape-green-2x55-yards.html

http://www.musson.com/gaffers-tape-olive-drab-2x55-yards.html

Suppressors on rifles in Vietnam!  I've not seen or heard of that before.

Have you been hiding under a rock or something?

No, just in suburbia.    No, seriously, in my 35 casual off & on study of the Vietnam War, I'd never heard of or seen pictures of rifle suppressors being used.  The first mention of rifle suppressors in combat other than the DeLisle I've ever heard of was the Soldier of Fortune article about the Soviet's use of suppressors on the AK-74 back in the 1980's.  Were we using stock ammo or Air Force .22"LR adapters?  

Regular old super sonic ammo, M193. Muffled the initial shot but still had the bullet's crack.
















<The story is, this guy's father machined the suppressor and mailed it over to him.

What's the story on this magazine?  2x30s taped together?

Really?

Vince
RVN 1971-72

No, it's a welded, homebrew 30 rounder - surprisingly common during the war. AKs had 30 rounders - GI's thought they should too. They even modified AK mags. WOuld like to build a few of these just or shits and giggles someday if I ever get another welder. I want a TIG bad...

Ah, I have seen pictures of those here before.  Might be easier to gin some up using steel mags instead of proper GI aluminum.  Someone tried to weld an aluminum magazine to their steel Flat Spot AR lower last week - he had always though GI mags were steel.

I bet the look on his face was priceless...

That being a fabric tape similar to EB Green (maybe exactly the same thing in OD), it is going to have more texture than most of those pics look like.  Maybe more like electrical tape.  Some of them look pretty hard to achieve with tape of any sort because of the sizes of the stripes or blotches.  They are an inspiration, though.

That's the one I was talking about that looks like the pattern on tiger stripe uniform fabric, which tempts me in the direction of doing a full blown camo job on the XM177 clone.

Rev number next - after talking to NDS I decided to order and wait on a grey upper and lower from them for rebuilding the A1 clone.

I'll be going ahead with the XM177 project on the PWA upper & lower in the meantime.

Meanwhile, feel free to post more cool pics

Okay, you asked for it....more suppressors, the M21,



< I really like the E2 stock







...and I've left out various pistols and submachineguns

What is the enormous spotting-scope-sized optic mounted on many of these weapons in the pics?

Gen 1 passive night vision, or Starlight Scope.

^Tiger camo

More green tape for camo and holding cleaning rods...

This one I think I've seen before.  Perhaps I was paying more attention to the Starlight scopes & didn't twig to the suppressors.

@44Echo10

Some of that looks like it is definitely tape, some looks like it couldn't be tape, and some is hard to tell.

The top two are really good.  

Trust me brother, it's tape (except the top two pics). Amazing what one can do with a razor blade.

I chose to keep mine as close to an A1 as possible: USGI M16 Upper, 1/12 Colt Barrel, RRA Lower/RRA Internals, USGI A1Furniture, US Anodizing Old Colt Grey Refinish.
Shoots damn nice, as simple as possible

Found a nice scope appropriate for the age as well:

The top two are my inspiration for what I think I want to do with the PWA in its new life as an XM177 clone, along with the B&W photo above of the M16 with the bipod & Colt scope sitting on sandbags with tiger stripe furniture.

Although not supported by any period photos, you think it would be too much to do the whole thing not just the furniture?  I think a tigerstripe-all-over XM177 (stripes vertical to break up the outline, not horizontal like the ads for the Duracote kit) would look cool even if not quite historical.

Even the ones that are tape cut up with razor blade I think would basically look the same but be more durable if I did the cutting on masking tape for the part to be left black, and took an appropriate shade of green rattle can to the exposed part.  In that scenario, I would probable just do the furniture, and remove it from the rifle for painting.



That's basically the look I want on the new rifle build with the new NDS receiver & the furniture from the in its original A1 look.  Well, I do like the look of the M16 with the striped furniture being held by the bare-headed guy in the OD jungle fatigues standing in front of the tent.  I'm not familiar with the unit badge he's wearing, but unless it is some elite outfit he otherwise looks like a regular GI, so maybe that look on an A1 clone isn't completely unrealistic.  .