I emailed several places about producing some dies. Redding replied with the message below:



That is not one we have made yet.  We would need a chamber reamer blue print and / or five fired cases to formally quote the dies.  

Typically a two die set with a tapered 25 cal expander button is $177.00 plus a $50.00 engineering charge.  If the cartridge is exactly a 25/223 Rem as you describe, then I doubt there would be additional tooling charges in the formal quote.

For 10 sets of the same dies you could expect a 15% discount on all except the engineering fee.

The dies will take up to 16 weeks to produce after acceptance of the quote and our receipt of a paid order.

We are running way behind in our quotes and customs and will continue to be behind well into the new year.

Thank you for your interest in Redding. Have a Safe & Happy New Year.

Dave Dibble

[email protected]

http://www.redding-reloading.com/

Redding Reloading
1089 Starr Road
Cortland, NY 13045
607-753-3331

Lee Die replied with this and I replied back as to wanting a standard 2 FL and seater die set. Hopefully I will hear back from them soon.


We are able to make a Custom die set for the 25/223. Depending on what type of die set you are interested in, the price would vary. Do you have a die set in mind that you are interested in?

Thank You
Lee Precision

I sent 320pf a list of Reloading Die Manufactures and the price quote for each...I wonder if he got it ?

did the price quote you received include a production time? If so who was the quickest?

Redding was the quickest(16 weeks), also the best quality and the most expensive.

RCBS sent this

 
Several request have been made on the 25-223 caliber this year.

RCBS may be adding this to the production line for 2011.

The main guy is on vacation and I may not get an answer until after
January 10th.

Happy New Year,

Stan Mayle
Special Order Dept.
RCBS

Lee sent another email


 To have a Full Length 2-Die Steel Rifle Die Set made we would need you to send us 5 fired cases and 3 bullets and it would cost $130.00 Set Up Fee plus $42.00 for the die set. This die set would include the Full Length Sizing Die, the Bullet Seating and Crimping Die and a Shell Holder. Current lead time is around 4 months. Our address is:
Lee Precision
4275 Hwy U
Hartford WI 53027

Thank You
Lee Precision


Newton Machine sent this

 Thanks for your interest in our dies.  All of our dies come as "Die Blanks" we do not finish any of the dies that we make.  That having been said, they are all but finished having a pilot hole, in your case a pilot hole for .25 cal and are close to the length of your cartridge.  All you or your gunsmith would need to do is run your wildcat chamber or resize reamer in our dies, (for a perfect match between case and chamber) face off the bottom to the correct length and you're done,  though you'll what to harden the FL sizer.  If you would like references to gunsmiths who regularly finish our dies, just let us know.

Troy Newlon
Newlon Precision



ok,
let me think outside the box here,,,,,,I have a set of  6x45 dies. If I was to FL size using the 6x45 then use a 25wssm neck sizing die would it work on the 25/223 till dies become available? The 25wssm neck sizing die should only expand and size the neck not the case.

I will test this on my 6x45 AR, I will run a 223 through a FL die then use my  243wssm diethat I use to load for my 243wssm AR to resize the neck. If it loads in my 6x45 AR then it should work in my new 25/223 when I get it using a 25wssm neck sizer.

One of you guys that has one up and running, would one of you be will if I paid for them and the shipping to send 5 resized and 5 fired cases?? Just 16 weeks  is much shorter from Redding than 8 months from CH4D

Message me with an address and I would be more than happy to send the cases to you.
Terrill

Message sent....thanks

If for some reason Graycard can't get them to you I can send you some as well.

Hi all,

I had a chance to talk to the owner of CH4D this afternoon.  I told him that there are about six customers looking for dies. He said that he make these dies with standard 223 reamers and modifies the neck to the 25 cal spec. He also indicated that since these did not require the CNC machine that he would be willing to move our order up in the que and thought that he could get our dies to us by mid-end of April with a possibilty of end of March. However, he had to talk to his shop forman to get an idea on the exact timing.

I am going to give him a call tomorrow afternoon and the the final details as far a better idea of the date and cost.

So are you all still interested?  If so how many die sets will we order?

320pf

PS sorry about not getting on this earlier but my day job got in the way

Yes. I will take two sets myself.

You guys talking to the die manufactures should give them a link to this thread.

320pf, can you put up a scan of your chamber/reamer print?  Be interesting to see the details.  Thanks.

I need a set of dies, otherwise my barrel is a paper weight.

I am willing to go in on any of the group buys, possibly even 2 different ones and see if there is a difference in accuracy between the dies.

Graycard has very kindly agreed to send some brass so I can get them off to Redding. Thanks so much, Vafish thank you also.

It looks like so far there are 6 sets sold tenitively.....the more we can get to go in on this the faster we can get these. 320 told me he would include 100pcs of sized brass with the barrel for me but I would burn them up in one day of testing / break in.  I am only going to have enough brass to send to one die maker.....I really like Redding, in my book they are the standard by which all others strive to meet. Buts thats just me.....

I really do think the 6x45 FL sizer die then using a 25wssm neck sizer will work to produce usable cases till dies can be gotten. Just a work around option......

I am interested in a set of dies if I can get on the list for the next run of barrels.

I talked with the owner of CH4D again tonight. He said that they will have 6 to 10 die sets going out in the next heat treating batch.  The dies should be back... Best case scenario, the dies should be back toward the end of March, worst case toward the end of April.

The cost will be ~$78.25 a set. You can order them directly from CH4D.  

In the mean time, I will resize peoples brass for $20 per 100 including shipping and handling.  Send me your brass and I will polish it, resize and deprime it and send it back.


I am also putting together the next group buy for barrels. I am also going to try and include a set of dies with the barrels that I sell (Depending of availability of course). So if you are interested PM me your contact info and I will contact you.

320pf

I had a great conversation with 320pf today!  I'm planning on adding a barrel to my inventory I'm going to post a few things that might help some you who are sitting on the fence because of reloading dies. First off the disclaimer's. I have NO stake in Redding, Brownells, or Sinclair.  I grew up with RCBS everything, but they get their stuff "offshore" now according to Handloader Magazine and Redding Advertises PA Steel being used in their products, so, I've been buying Redding for the last 6 years or so.  Redding makes a  body sizing die that will do double duty for your 223 and 25-223 as it only sizes the BODY and does not touch the neck.  Then you can buy the Type-S bushing die that will resize the case neck.  You will need a bushing of the the appropriate size (both for the 223 and the 25) to resize your case necks.  Also you will want to expand your case necks up from 22 to 25 caliber.  Redding has 2 different expanders for this Carbide or tapered.  As far as seating goes, 320pf tells me that you can ream out any 223 seating die to work and I have one that I will give to my favorite machinist to do so.  That should have you covered from case forming to loading.  I see others have come up with similar ideas, mine is one one of many ways; I'm just trying to let the stuff you have (or may buy) do as much for you as possible.  Post any other ways you've thought of!

ETA: Big Screw Up! Sorry guys I didn't have a barrel on hand so I haven't tried to make any brass until this week.  And, here's where my plan came apart.  The body sizer die while big enough not to resize the neck of 223 won't accept a 25 cal case neck.  I'll probably have mine opened up.  The second part of the plan should still work.  As another seater option I'm working on making the RCBS competition die work.  They are the ones that came in a gray box with the micrometer seating die.  They were made to be able to be rebuilt for different calibers.  So, if the parts are out there for 25 cal I'll post the info.  There wasn't a big response to this, but I didn't want bad info I posted out there if I could correct it.

25.5gr.........2427fps

Tried 25.5gr of TAC and got 2427fps, still no pressure signs.  Also tried some 1680 loads.

100gr Hornady SP, AA1680:
19.5gr.........2244fps
20.0gr.........2296fps
20.5gr.........2309fps

The TAC at 25.5gr is getting close to filling the case so I'm not sure how much more room I have to test.  The AA1680 wasn't close to filling the case but I did have one ejector swipe at 20.5gr and my notes from looking at other load data had 21.0gr of 1680 listed as the max.  It's looking like I'll have the same result but I'll tinker a bit more.  I ran out of prepped brass so I need to get some more ready before I can load any more rounds.

Here is my .25-223 rifle for those who would like to see:



7lbs 6ozs without magazine.

Altair: Nice man.

How long is your barrel? Also have you tried any AA2015 in your load work up?

The brass shipped, thanks again. As soon as I get it I will send it to Redding. Still waiting to hear from 320, he had said prior to xmas mine was scheduled the week after xmas....so it should be soon.

Got the new chrono out over the weekend.  Only had one load worked up.  87 gr Hornady Spire Point with 26.2 grs H335.

Fired 10 shots over the chrono.


2562
2577
2570
2547
2527
2585
2600
2564
2566
2594

2569.2  Mean
21.70  SD
2527  Min
2600  Max


It was a cloudy day, but mid afternoon, and had a lot of visible muzzle flash.  Even could see it in the scope.  Starting to think I should have got the 20" barrel instead of the 16".

Many people forget that the shorter barrel lengths have Increased flash and blast/report...Thats why I like to stick w/ the 20" and up when it comes to barrel length.

16" medium contour barrel
QCB Brake (it was laying around and made a good thread protector, eventually this will wear a FH with a mount for my suppressor)
Bushmaster upper & BCG
DPMS lower and LPK
M4 stock
TA31F ACOG (also laying around, tried it out for a patrol carbine and didn't like it, eventually will have a variable optic for it)

You'll get the most out of the cartridge with the 20 inches but the 16 inch barrel is just so handy.  It's a trade off either way.  Mine is set up to ride on my ATV and in the cab of the truck so the 16 inches works well.  I also went without a flash hider and think the gases may be directed a bit more forward and are not as noticable to the shooter even if it does light up the world.

True but if you run the right powder/bullet combo this can be minimized. This is were a program like QL realy shines.

I went with an 18" threaded. Looking for a short Flash hider for it......suggestions?? I like the 18" barrels as I have a couple in that length and like them.....sort of the middle ground

Yeah I know and it's always a trade off.  

One of the reasons I went with the 16" is that my 11 year old daughter said she wanted to go deer hunting with me this year.  But she never did.

It is a nice handy little carbine.  I was worried about the lower velocity from the shorter barrel.  I e-mailed Hornady tech support about their 87 gr spire point.  Their reply said it should reliably expand down to 1,500 fps.  With an average velocity of 2,570 and that bullet it shouldn't slow down under 1,500 fps until 450 yards.

I only plan on shooting it to 200 yards max.  With a 50 yard zero I'm 2" high at 100 yards and dead on at 200, 4" low at 250  So even if my range estimation is a little off I can hold dead on out to 200 yards and not worry about bullet drop.  And I still have 800 foot pounds of energy.  The extra 100 fps only changes it about 1" at 250 yards and about 70 fp more energy.

18" would have been a good compromise.

Fun cartridge to play around with.

Hi Va,

Happy New Year! It is good to see that you are getting to shoot your rifle. It has been a bit too cold here to do much shooting.

I have also been eyeing the 87 gr Hornady Spire point bullet.  The 87 gr Speer that I have used seem to work pretty well.  It does not protrude into the case much and leaves plenty of room for powder. However,it does not have as good of ballistic profile as the Hornady.

According to the ballistic programs that I have, you should be able to get 2650 to 2700 fps with an 87 gr bullet.  But, I have not tried H335 with the 87 gr bullets... It might be a bit too slow though. I do have H335 load data for the 75 gr Vmax... I get about 2700-2800 fps with the 75 gr Vmax.  

So far Reloader-7 is the best powder that I have found for the 87 gr Speer. I am getting about 2700-2750fps and the pressures look OK.

I hope this helps.

Keep us informed of your results

320pf

I think I can put a bit more powder in the case.  No pressure signs at 26.2.  I did work up to that before I got the chrono.

Now I really need to go back and start working my way up and see what the velocity is doing.

Another reason for liking the Hornady 87 gr spire point is that it's one of the cheapest .257 bullets I've found.

I would say with the new Federal / Sharps offering in 25-45 we may very well see lots of new offerings in this. Like dies that some one is already geared up to produce.......I am sure it won't be long before there are several other offerings as well.

For the uninitiated, here's the 25-45 'announcement' thread - New Release: Sharps 25-45 Cartridge for the AR.

It appears to be basically the same as the .25-223, except untrimmed. The mm designation (45mm) and the pictures seem to suggest that the case isn't trimmed back to 1.7 inches (43.2mm) like the 25-223. My simple mind seems to think that while this may make case prep much easier, it will also severely restrict which .257 bullets can be suitably loaded. Given that this effort apparently has Federal's backing, it will be interesting to see what solutions they come up with for this problem.

Interestingly enough, if the only difference is indeed the case length, it would stand to reason that 25-223 and 25-45 dies would be interchangeable.

In any event, this seems to be a positive development. More cartridges based on the .223 case - and not using proprietary mags, bolts, etc. is a good thing for us shooters and reloaders.

As for me, I'm having a ball (and making slow progress on load development) with my 25-223. I'm finding that H335 loads in the 25.4-25.8 grain range seem to work best accuracy-wise with 87-100 grain bullets. I'm thus facing that existential question - max accuracy or max velocity? From an accuracy standpoint, MOA is not difficult at all. 320pf knows how to build a barrel.

Have to clip off all the tips of the pretty bullets and shave your mags to run the Sharps.Case prep is easy though.

320pf,

Are we going to have to ream the necks out just a bit on our chambers to shoot the commercial .24-45 ammo if they are not shortening their case necks?

Well my barrel is done.....woo hoo

Its an 18" varmint contour

I spoke with Brent today and he said he was going to post up a photo of the barrel......

How much of the 25-45 can be used in the equation ?  I'm more interested in a 6.3x43 version as it seems to be a much better fit for an AR . I'm just curious as to how much 25-45 components can be used as an advantage in correlation with the 25-223 , ie reamer ,brass , . . .

They are on my list of people to see at the Shot Show next week.  Before I come home I plan to have these answers along with all the data on the 300 Blackout.  I'll have every company under one roof (one big roof) and I plan to take advantage of it.

I expanded my load data a little again today, here is the complete list so far:

25-223, 16" bbl, 100gr Hornady SP, TAC powder

22.0gr.........2100fps
22.5gr.........2115fps
23.0gr.........2175fps
23.5gr.........2240fps
24.0gr.........2263fps
24.5gr.........2306fps
25.0gr.........2335fps
25.5gr.........2427fps
26.0gr.........2423fps

You'll notice that the fps dropped slightly from 25.5gr to 26.0gr.  It was colder but I don't think that was a big factor.  I think I've just hit the limit for this powder.  I still had no pressure signs but the case was full.  Adding any more TAC will result in a compressed load.  I think I'm done with this bullet/powder combo.

25-223, 16" bbl, 100gr Hornady SP, AA1680 powder

19.5gr.........2244fps
20.0gr.........2296fps
20.5gr.........2309fps
21.0gr.........2400fps

Well, I had one ejector swipe at 20.5gr and all five cases had them at 21.0gr.  I was also able to see the outline of the ejector.  21.0gr is over max so I'm done with this bullet/powder combo.

25-223, 16" bbl, 100gr Hornady SP, IMR4227 powder

17.5gr.........2041fps
18.0gr.........2090fps
18.5gr.........2127fps

I've just started with IMR4227.  No pressure signs yet but I started low as I hadn't found much data with this powder.  It is a bit faster than AA1680 so I suspect I will run into similar issues but we'll see.

ETA:  My kids took a long enough nap I was able to do some more loads of the 4227

19.0gr.........2241fps
19.5gr.........2302fps
20.0gr.........2307fps

Just like the 1680 (as expected), I had 2 minor ejector swipes with 19.5gr and at 20.0gr all cases had them and the extractor marks.  20.0gr is over max for my gun.  This powder is too fast for the 100gr bullets.  I will try it again with something in the 75-87gr ranges to see how it works there.  I expect it will do better.

ETA2:  I wanted to add that with all this testing, some of it being with extremely low powder charges and velocities, I have yet to find a single load that won't cycle this rifle.  So far all have cycled and locked open the bolt on the last round.  I can see the ejection pattern changing as I step up each load (low powered loads eject to the rear and the angle slowly moves forward until it is ejecting forward with the near max loads).  So far I have nothing but confidence in the realiability of this cartridge in a 16" carbine gas setup.  It has eaten everything I have thrown at it without complaint.

Back on the subject of the introduction of the 25-45 cartridge, I would not be surprised if the designers made a conscious trade-off by keeping the case length at 45mm. Doing so, of course, restricts the bullets which can be loaded, but also increases the bearing surface of the case neck on the bullet and thus - in theory at least - would serve to prevent bullet setback and other problems. The .25-223 does admittedly have a rather short case neck compared to virtually all commercially loaded cartridges. While this has caused me no problems - even without crimping - I can understand how big-name manufacturers might be a little wary.

I'm excited about the 25-45 cartridge. Not because I'm interested in purchasing brass or ammo (VAFish's game warden issue notwithstanding, .25-223 brass is everywhere) but because us .25-223 shooters will now have access to vastly-improved quantities (and factory sanctioned) reloading data. Maybe, just maybe, we'll see some specially-designed .257 bullets as well. Bring it on.

Graycard, looking forward to your SHOT AAR!

GB243,

I do not know exactly the specs on the 25-45.  It looks like the 223 just necked up but until the spec are available we will have not any idea.  

I am going to SHOT next week so maybe I will know more then.

320pf

Here is the newest member to the stable of 25-223AR barrels.  It is an 18-inch 1:10 Varmint weight barrel.



Sorry about the quality of the image.  It was taken under low light conditions. I will try and replace it.

It looks like the next barrel will be in stainless steel.

320pf

It would be nice to see some pressure test barrel results for this round.

This cartridge easily compares to the .25-35WCF/25Rem.  and  almost touches the 250 Savage. Can't wait for SHOT .

I would suggest everyone be patient for a couple of weeks......I am very sure there is going to be some even bigger news about this wildcat coming out very soon by a major custom player in this area.  I think Brent will be the one to let us know.....

Black Hole announced today they are going to start producing the 25/223 barrels. Black Hole produces outstanding barrels using the polygonal process. I have one of their 6x45 and I really like it.

THE 25/223 , or the 25-45 ?

Carl from Black Hole said 25/223........but I would think they will chamber it 25x45. The shorter 25/223 will still chamber in the 25x45. Black Hole does quite a bit  of business with predator hunters who shoot lighter bullets. If I understand this correctly the case length would make no difference shooting 70-85gr bullets.. If I can not shoot 25x45 in my barrel I will more than likely have BH ream it just a touch where I can shoot resized 223 cases as I plan to shoot varmint bullets.