I'm not trying to be a killjoy, just know the limitations and have reasonable expectations if you decide to try it.  IIRC the twist these barrels use is 1:12, which may have difficulty with a 117gr bullet at 1000fps.  Of course, the only way to know for sure would be to try it.  If it stabilizes the bullet at that velocity it will work fine suppressed.  I don't know of any starting data or powders to try, as I don't know of anyone who had done it with the .25-223, but people have been successful loading .223, .308, 6.8, etc subsonic so I'm sure it can be done.  If you can find data for subsonic 6-223 that may be a good starting point.  Just make sure you shoot plenty of them ahead of time and know they are stable (decent accuracy, no keyholing) before you try to put one through a suppressor.

If you do try subs with your .30-06 you may run into some of the same issues.  If it is a 1:12 twist it won't like the longer heavier bullets.  It also probably has a 24" barrel, and will have the same problem with the bullet decelerating before exit.  What happens is that you have to use a very small powder charge in a large case to get the bullet to stay below supersonic velocity.  The pressure curve is much lower than it is with a conventional load and at some point as the bullet travels down the bore the pressure pushing it equalizes with the friction with the bore slowing it down.  After that point the bullet actually loses velocity with every inch of barrel, which is the opposite of conventional wisdom with regard to barrel length.  If you start with a load that is supposed to be subsonic in a short barrel, it may not exit a long barrel at all, which can create a dangerous situation for the shooter.  With subsonics in a platform designed for high velocity rounds it is best to start above your target velocity and work down rather than the typical work up.  Of couse, you have to know where to start, which can be tricky.  A chronograph is a huge help, obviously.

With a larger case like the .30-06 you are going to have some velocity dispersion problems.  There will be a large volume of case with nothing but air.  The powder can shift and this can cause erratic velocities.  At best this will cause vertical stringing, at worst a bullet can get stuck in the bore.  Velocity dispersion is common loading .308 Win for subsonic and will probably be amplified with a .30-06 because the case is larger.  One of the reasons the 300BLK works so well is because the case is so small, especially when a very large bullet takes up most of the internal space inside the case.

I can certainly understand not wanting to dump the money into a range toy.  FWIW if you buy a .30 cal suppressor you could use it on just about anything that is .308" or smaller.  I use my YHM suppressor on my .223's, my 300 Win Mag, and everything in between that I want to try it with.  Of course this includes my 300BLK, which is the only one I load subsonic for.  My can would certainly work on my .25-223, I've just never put a mount on one to try it.

All of the 25-223Ar  barrels are 1:10 twist.

If one wants to shoot subsonic loads, the 300 Whisper/Blackout is pretty hard to beat.  With that said, if I was going to play around with subsonic loads. I would also look at the Sierra 117g GK and the Speer 120 g BT.  The higher BC of these spitzer boattail bullets will retain velocity  better than the 117 g Horn roundnose.

Here is a ballistic chart of what you can expect with a  Speer 120 g BT. The muzzle energy would be similar to 9mm, 38 spcl., or 357 Sig. However, as Altair has stated, the bullet are not likely to expand, tumble... Maybe?

Range Drop Windage Velocity Energy

yrds  inches inches   fps     ft-lbs

0    -1.5    0.0      1103   324

25    1.6    0.1      1084   313

50    2.9    0.4      1067   304

75    2.3    0.9      1051   295

100  -0.3    1.5      1036   286

125  -4.9    2.4      1023   279

150 -11.6    3.4      1010   272

175 -20.4    4.6       997   265

200 -31.4    5.9       985   259

225 -44.6    7.4       974   253

250 -60.1    9.1       963   247

Hmmm.... Interesting.... I might just have to try shooting some Sierra 117g GK I have with subsonic loads.

1:10 might do it.  One thing to consider is that the longer spitzer boattail bullets will be less likely to stabilize than the round nose since they are longer for their weight.  Again, you'll only know if you try them out and see what happens.

1st day range report:

1.)The barrel shoots better than I do

2.) I need something better than a stock trigger group

3.) This is a lot of fun


I will post some pics and velocities of loads when I get a chance. I have four children wanting to fish, hike, and explore the farm. I will say the loads were right in line with the numbers posted on this thread.

fantastic

I just received my Redding small base type-s bushing sizing die from Midwayusa.  I ordered the on mentioned previously in this thread, Midway # 137496 & Redding # 77323.  I am at work and looking at this thing I am wondering if I was sent the wrong one.  It looks the same as the picture on Midway and in the picture previously in this thread.  However, looking down into the die with the decapping pin removed I can see a lip that I would imagine sizes the neck.  The die does not have any type of bushing in it.  When I drop my .263 bushing down into it from the top, the hole in the bushing appears to be larger than the hole in the die where it narrows.  Am I missing something??  I don't want to get it home and get a case stuck in it because it is the wrong thing.  Please help me out.

Thanks!

If I remember correctly, the diameter on the lip on which the bushing sits is about 0.0260 ±0.002  so you so your 0.263 bushing could be a bit larger diameter of the lip.  Just lube your cases as you  would normally do and you should be good to go.  I will pin gauge my redding die to determine the actual lip diameter tomorrow.

Thanks Brent, got home and got it all put together and made up some dummy rounds.  Everything seemed to work fine!  Got my trimmer set and ready to go, now all I need is a barrel  Thanks again!

My gun range:

http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/scpossum1/EAAD4B42-2B8E-4DC0-A7AA-4604E99567F3-8056-000004D81B4B53CB.jpg


I had some trouble with the chrony, but here is what I got for a few rounds per load. I did not shoot many.  The idea was to get a little data in my book and look at the brass.  My target pics could probably use some work, but hopefully you can make it out.  I had a couple of misfeeds that were my fault for not having the magazines loaded correctly and could not shoot two of the rounds-top target.

I think it was a pretty good start. There are only three shots per load and I only wish I had loaded a few more.   Might have to put together a portable loading setup.  

AA2200  22gr    speer 100gr    2354
AA2200  22.5gr speer 100gr    2402
AA2200  23gr    speer 100gr    2458
AA2200  23.5gr speer 100gr    2518
AA2200  24gr    speer 100gr    2590
AA2200  24.5gr speer 100gr   error

AA2200  22gr     sierra 100gr     error
AA2200  22.5gr  sierra 100gr    2438
AA2200  23gr     sierra 100gr    2521
AA2200  23.5gr  sierra 100gr    2616



http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/scpossum1/E696CAEC-2ECB-4D26-9011-4654B92360E3-8056-000004D83E04372D.jpg

http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/scpossum1/881048b2dff25d2d447cf72f073531ba.jpg

You are getting some good speed for your barrel length.  Try 24.0 and post back.  It seems to be a good accuracy node with all 100 grainers I've tried.

So little match update for me, shot my 3rd tactical match with the 25Ar yesterday,  was the worst ive ever run the rifle.
I was plagued with constant issues with the ammo stopped counting at 8 blown primers ALL with once fired FC brass.

Complete crap ALL my FC brass will now be scrapped, everytime it popped a primer it locked up the bolt so i had to drop the mag and remove a almost chambered round. I had misfeeds where the bolt wouldent go fully into battery, chamber was covered in nasty crap which i assume happened from the popped primers.

Sometimes the bolt wouldent fully lock back on an empty mag. Overall it was the worst running of the rifle in all aspects.
I was very frustrated Seemed like if it could have went wrong it did.

So i did a complete detail strip last nite, culled ALL the FC garbage out of my bins i have 11 rounds of FC i need to break down, and then i am going to redo the loads and see if its them or the rifle.

I was running 90gr SBK over 24.6gr of AA2200 for about 2700fps. so i think ill reshoot the 24.4gr and 24.6gr and reevalulate the loads.
On another note i am almost at the 2000 round mark in the rifle. I will probably need a new bolt as the primers have burnt a pretty good ring into the face.

Ill update this when i have a better clue as to what happened.

Has anyone loaded 100gr Hornady SP with the flat base?  I think i loaded from 23 gr AA2200 to 24.5gr. I see the 87 gr SP listed but not the 100gr.  Going to the farm  on Sat for some testing.

Yeah I have, its the 100 gr Interlock. Out of both mine and my brother's rifles its sub moa on top of 24.0 of 2200. Try it out and post back.

Best overall group from yesterday. 24.5 gr AA2200 with a 100 gr Speer SPBT. Had ejector marks on some of the brass, though. Average velocity was around 2630 fps I think. Might need to back off a bit. Still need a better trigger group. All the 100 grainers did well - Sierra, Speer, and Hornady. Did not get to check it out on cotton eating targets, but maybe next time.

http://i313.photobucket.com/albums/ll373/scpossum1/53fd7f94824ac45ddcdf3b7007a35b88.jpg

I haven't put the caliper on the brass yet, but I probably could back off a bit considering none of the groupings were bad as I stepped up the load.   It was 80-85 degrees yesterday with 1000% humidity.  It felt like I was in a sauna.

Anyone tried a 100gr partition?

Question answered

Hi SB,

I suspect that you started blowing primers about 5-6 rounds into your stage?

Your 24.6g load of A2200 is probably a very good hunting load but not such a good 3-gun load. I have had similar experiences with ball powders. They tend to be a bit temp. sensitive. I have shot near-max-loads that shoot fine all day long a75-85 deg. at the range and blow primers at 75-85 deg days when you start running the gun hard at matches. When you run an AR hard the rounds in the mag will heat up when the gas in the BCG vents into the upper receiver. In addition, the round in the chamber will "soak" up heat as it sits there waiting it's turn

I agree with your idea about reshooting the 24.4gr and 24.6g loads but you might want to start at about 24.2g.  I would look for a load that give you about 2650 fps with the Sierra 90g BK.

The 90g Sierra BlitzKing is my goto bullet for 3-gunning. I think that they are probably the best all around bullet for the 25-223AR... The 90g BK has a high BC and can be driven at about 2630-2670 from a 16.5-inch barrel.  

(Altair, if you are listening in on this post I have some Sierra 90g BK that would be really nice to do some gel testing on.  I think that they would perform pretty much like the 85g Nosler BT)

I'm always listening.  I haven't cooked up a batch of gel in a while but I have a few things I want to try out.  I like to wait until I've got a few to try because the gel can be melted down and re-used but only lasts so long before it molds or loses its integrity and won't pass the calibration test.

I'd be happy to do the 90gr BK as long as you aren't looking for a very fast turn around.  I'm pretty busy this time of year and would want to get several things lined up to before I mix the gel.  I have a few with the 7.62x40 I want to test, as well as our new duty ammunition (5.56 55gr Gold Dot), so I should be able to get to it in the next month or two.

Altair,

In addition to the Sierra 90g BK, I would like to test the following:

Sierra 90g GK with a large open hollow point (I get about 2780 fps out these)
Sierra 100g Pro Hunter (These are similar to the Speer 100g hot cor)
Speer 87 g TNT (I get about 2780 fps out these)
Barnes 80g TTSX (I get about 2800 fps out these, I can get up to 2850fps be the accuracy is best at 2800fps)
100g Nosler Partition (I get about 2580 fps out these)

I can load* some of these up and send them to you and/or I could just send you the bullets.  

*If I send you loaded ammo, I will load them on the mild side

Thanks for the info Brent, all the loads shot to the same POI 24.2-24,6gr so ill prob just drop it to 24.2 and be done with it.

I do like the aa2200 it gives me H335 velocity with 2gr less powder. The shitty FC brass was also on its 8th reload

I already have the 80gr TTSX but none of the others.  

As a rule I don't shoot other people's handloads.  Nothing personal, of course, I just prefer to be cautious and if a mistake is made it is my own and not someone elses.  I also don't give my reloads out for others to shoot for the same reason.

I may or may not be able to do all six with a single gel block.  I'll have to look to see how much mix I have left and if it will be viable to do all at one time.  I'll let you know.

Hi Altair,

OK, I will send you about twenty of each of the bullets.

Here is some data from this past weekend.  Barrel is 16.5"

AA2200
speer 100gr spbt
22gr     2354
22.5gr  2402
23gr     2458
23.5gr  2518
24gr     2590
24.5gr  2629

AA2200.5sierra 100gr spbt
22.5gr   2438
23gr      2521
23.5gr   2556
24gr      2606
24.5gr   2652

AA2200
Hornady 100gr spbt
23gr       2435
23.5gr    2499
24gr       2535
24.5gr    2595

I want to Thank everyone on the post for all of the great info. I spent 3 days re-reading it all.
I have my barrel (16.5") on order from Brent
I am 5 weeks into the 6-10 week turn-around.

Unfortunately powder and primers on are limit supply where I live.
I was lucky enough to pick up a 1lb of IMR-4198.
I also picked up some Nosler 85g BT Varmint.

Since my rifle will be used for WI whitetail, and I am uncertain of the availability of powder between now and November...
Will 4198 fulfill the purpose?

I typically shoot under 200 yards.  It can be anywhere from 40 to -10 degrees during the season.
Any suggestions on bullets with 4198 would be appreciated.

I have not used IMR4198 but did quite a bit of testing with H4198. The two are right next to each other on the powder burn rate chart, but not entirely interchangeable. IMR4198 is slightly faster, which means you should back off any H4198 loads a bit in testing.

Generally, H4198 yielded outstanding accuracy but less velocity than other powders. I still have a target posted above my reloading bench with a five-shot one ragged-hole group made possible by H4198 and the .25-223. While I did not test the 85-grain Nosler BT with this powder, I found about 22.5 grains to be magic accuracy-wise with the Barnes 80-grain TTSX. Chronographed velocity was around 2730 fps. I never got much more than 23.0 grains in the case with any bullet, however I recommend of course that you start well below this maximum level. Always work up to any maximum load, especially with a wildcat cartridge like this one.

You may also need to enlarge your gas port to work with these faster powders like 4198 and R7. Let me know if you need more info.

Thanks Wombat.

It looks like others have use 22.5g to push an 87g 25-222 copper head.
I see that 6mm PPC in my Lymans book has a suggested starting of 19.5g for an 85g bullet.

I'll start at the 19.5 and walk my way up.  Single shell in the mag to start.

I have some time to think about this.  I'll post data when I get everything setup.

Worst case, I can use to reload my 308, or just go out an buy a 45-70

I also haven't used IMR4198 but have used H4198 with the .25-223.  With the 85gr Nosler BT and a 16.5" barrel in Lake City brass I got the following:

21.0gr.....2478fps
21.5gr.....2522fps
22.0gr.....2581fps
22.5gr.....2624fps
23.0gr.....2666fps

I started getting ejector swipes at 23.0gr and didn't push it any further.  The 85gr NBT has a long poly tip that makes for a long for weight bullet and it encroaches on the case quite a bit.  I was never able to get great velocity with it.  I was able to get almost as much velocity with a 100gr SPBT, the Sierra Game King.  I got up to 2550fps using 22.5gr of H4198.

I just switched out my stock to an A2 stock.  Will I have any issues with it cycling if it was cycling with the six position stock or will it be the same?

I do not think that you will have any problems.  I am assuming the the buffer and spring tension/weight are similar.

Anything is possible.  The A2 stock will be using the rifle buffer which is significantly heavier than a standard weight carbine buffer.  There is only one way to find out, of course, and I think it is unlikely to give you any problems unless it was just barely cycling before you switched.

ETA:  I had a couple handy so I just weighed them.  The standard carbine buffer was 83 grams and the rifle buffer was 147 grams.  That's pretty significant (77% increase).

ThAnks for the replies. I will let u know. Shooting in a couple of hours.

Function with the A2 stock was outstanding and the gun shot great. It was extremely humid and I was trying to shoot in a non- rain window this morning. It has rained here every day for the past 13 days.   Good accuracy with the speer, sierra, and hornady 100 grainers and Aa2200. Not much on the velocities since I set ithe chrony up too close when I forgot the tripod.   Registered the blast and not the projectile.

Wish I could have stayed and tried it out on a deer, but maybe next time.

320pf do you have any barrels left - I'm looking at building another upper...

So, looks like my 25 cal redding size button is on infinite back order.  just move from September to October.
That's too close to deer season.

I was wondering if this would work?
48256 Redding 25 cal. Carbide Size Button Kit

I think I know the answer.  My guess is no since this is not tapered.

Hi Arrow,

I can help you out until your part arrives. I can make you enough brass to get you through deer season. If you send me the brass and cover shipping, I can make you up some brass.  I would guess that 200-300 pieces would keep you out of trouble.  All you would have to do is prime it, load powder and seat your bullet(s).

Actually, once the brass is formed the button kit would should work.

Drop me a line and we can work out the details.

320pf

contact me via email

Thanks 320pf.

I tried one last option.  I went to the Redding web site, and in the contact form asked if
they knew where I could find one.

They responded this morning and said they would send me one at retail price.

If they don't come through, I will let you know, and we can work something out.

I appreciate your offer.

Ok guys just need some clarification, I ordered Type S bushing die .223 and the tapered size button for .257. Do I need  #201741 Redding Neck Sizer Die Bushing 2 too?

Just a little history; I started reading the novel in October of 2012 and became intrigued. Flash to July when a prime hunting lease fell in to my lap and now I need a new rifle. So now I'm building what I think is the prefect medium game rifle. Thanks to everyone who put their blood, sweat, and time into developing this cartridge.

Steve

My tapper button arrived from Redding today.

Thanks to Chrisbfrom Redding for sending one out before their week long shutdown.
I had to pay retail, but that is better than paying a discount and waiting months.

Arrow, sounds like you will make deer season yet.

Is anyone running a suppressor on their barrel?  Can I run a .30 cal can on a mid-length barrel or will I have problems?  New to the suppressor scene, but very interested.

As long as the threads are concentric, you have the proper suppressor mount, and the bullet is stable you can run a suppressor without damaging anything.  The gun may be over gassed and blow a lot of gas and carbon back into the action but that is normal for a suppressed gun.

I have a YHM .308 suppressor and run on on everything from .223 to 300 Win Mag. I haven't actually tried it on my .25-223 but would have no reservations about it if I had a reason to.

Anyone tried H335 with 75 gr bullets?

I just loaded up the last of my 90 gr SGK's, only .257 bullets I have left are some 75 gr blems from Midway, and the most suitable powder I have is H335.

Check some of the posts on 3/6/2011. There was  some testing with H335 and 75 grainers.  Should be around page 20.  

Yup ive used hornady and sierras, have gone up to 28gr, best accuracy was from 27gr

Hi Steve,

You probably can get by without a bushing but I have one installed in my die to help keep the de-capping pin and expander ball set in the correct position.  

I rechecked the Redding die and the original CH4D sizer dies with pin gauges. Here are the results:

A 0.275" Redding bushing will  pass a 0.274" pin but not a 0.275" pin.  

The CH4D 25-223 die will pass a 0.274" pin but not a 0.275" pin.

That is why I first went with a 0.275" bushing. However, once I got my hands on a Redding 223 bushing die, I measured the neck clearance and found that the Redding die will pass a 0.262" pin but not a 0.263" pin.  So the Redding die (without a bushing) will size the brass to about 0.263". So if you have not pick up a bushing yet for the Redding die, I would go with a 0.263" bushing.

Note, I am using a 0.255" tapered expander ball with both the CH4D and Redding dies.

I hope this helps.

320pf

Hi Va,

I just checked powder valley, they have both the 90 g GameKing and BlitzKings in stock. They also have the Speer 87 g HotCor, Hornaday 87g spire point, and Nosler 85 g ballistic tip in stock.


SIE1615.257 90 gr. HPBT GameKing (100)Yes$22.54
SIE1616.257 90 gr. BlitzKing (100)Yes$24.85

SPR1241.257 87 GR. SPTZ SP (100)Yes$20.18
HOR2530.257 87 GR SP (100)Yes$18.93
NOS43004NOS .257 85 GR SPT BALLISTIC TIP VARM (100)Yes$26.38

320pf

Thanks,

I did find a box of 87 gr hornady in my stash.  But I need to get some more deer suitable bullets on order.

What are people using for deer?

Looks like the 90 gr. HPBT GameKing would fit the bill.

I can't legally use this rifle in my state to hunt deer but if I could I would probably use the 100gr Game King at 2550fps or the 80gr TTSX at 2700fps from my 16".

I haven't taken a deer yet, but I favor the 100 gr bullets, specifically the hornady interlock.