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Posted: 10/8/2010 10:48:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By VaFish:
This place lists them. But they are CH4D dies. http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/reloadingdies2.html I'll bet they just order them from CH4D when you place your order. I recall someone talking about using a Sinclair bushing die, but I'm not sure how they work. Lee will make custom rifle dies for $174.50 http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/custom.html They'll also make their factory crimp dies for $29.50. One other thing would be to ask CH4D how many orders they would need to bump the .25-223 up in their production priority. I will just get the Lee. So...do I need to provide them with cartridge specs or how does that work? I'm pissed at myself for procrastinating. To keep the thread on topic, I'm SO looking forward to getting this project up and running. I was looking at the 6.8 very hard for the last year or so, but what caused me to never pull the trigger is the need for new mags and brass availability. This wildcat is close enough to 6.8 performance for my needs and I can use my plethora of mags. Good job 320PF for making this cartridge known to arf! |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/9/2010 11:23:29 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 10/10/2010 10:11:21 AM EDT
[#3]
This is a very interesting wildcat cartridge. What velocities are you guys getting with a 85-87gr bullet?
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NY, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2010 2:31:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#4]
Originally Posted By aceduece:
This is a very interesting wildcat cartridge. What velocities are you guys getting with a 85-87gr bullet? Ask and you shall receive. Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 22.5––––2609 23.0––––2660 23.5––––2693 24.0––––2749 24.5––––2807 This data set shows a nice linear progression, even up to 24.5g. I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 75g Hornaday VMAX seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 25.0––––2890 25.5––––2940 26.0––––3000 26.5––––3016––-velocity curve flattening out...Over Max load?? 27.0––––3079 OVER MAX I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
I had a chance to work with the 25-223AR this weekend. I installed the gas port on my barrel (One of the first two that we had built, a 1:10, 16-inch nominal 0.775-in diameter that is 0.84-in after the gas block). I set the gas port to 0.072-in. in the carbine position. The gun cycles perfectly, It will cycle through a 30pround mag and lock open on the last round. Here is more load data for the 25-223Ar. I had a chance to try Hodgdon H335 today. It seems to be the best powder I have tried so far. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Hodgdon H335 wt.(g)––––––-vel. (fps) 24.8––––––––-2460 25.7––––––––-2560 25.9––––––––-2581 26.1––––––––-2604 26.5––––––––-2624* Over Max?* * load starting to go nonlinear I hope this helps 320pf |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2010 3:38:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
Originally Posted By VaFish:
This place lists them. But they are CH4D dies. http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/reloadingdies2.html I'll bet they just order them from CH4D when you place your order. I recall someone talking about using a Sinclair bushing die, but I'm not sure how they work. Lee will make custom rifle dies for $174.50 http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/custom.html They'll also make their factory crimp dies for $29.50. One other thing would be to ask CH4D how many orders they would need to bump the .25-223 up in their production priority. I will just get the Lee. So...do I need to provide them with cartridge specs or how does that work? I'm pissed at myself for procrastinating. To keep the thread on topic, I'm SO looking forward to getting this project up and running. I was looking at the 6.8 very hard for the last year or so, but what caused me to never pull the trigger is the need for new mags and brass availability. This wildcat is close enough to 6.8 performance for my needs and I can use my plethora of mags. Good job 320PF for making this cartridge known to arf! Lee has the instructions on the link I gave. $130 of that is set up cost and $44.50 is die cost. Should see if other need dies and you can split the set up cost with them. 3 sets of dies splitting the set up cost would be the same price as CH4d. It does look like the need chamber dimensions, or some fired cases. 320pf should be abot to provide chamber dimensions and either he or I can get you some fired cases. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2010 8:26:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#6]
I had a chance to work on the 20-inch ( 1:10) 25-223AR barrel this weekend. The gas port is in the standard rifle position. I tried several gas port diameters, starting at size #45 (0.082"), #43 (0.089"), #42 0.0935"), and #40 (0.098"). At 0.098" the gun cycles perfectly, It will cycle through a 30pround mag and lock open on the last round.
So in summary, for the 25-223, a 16" long 0.075" diameter barrel with the gas port in the carbine postion runs with a 0.073" gas port (a #49 wire gauge drill). A 20" long 0.075" diameter barrel with the gas port in the standard rifle position runs with a 0.098" gas port (a #40 wire gauge drill). I would guess that an 18" long 0.075" diameter barrel with the gas port in the mid-length position would run with a port in the 0.080 to 0.090 position. So I would start at the low end and work up. Thanks to the posts below for giving me some starting parameters. I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By ronaldmwilliams:
Originally Posted By Dr69er:
Hello fellas, well I have a 6mm-223(6X45) Ar Barrel w/ a Rifle length gasport and I'm getting short stroking and I've narrowed it down the problem to the gasport hole being to small (Its about .086-.088"). So, Rifle length is fine (better velocity and less stress on the BCG)...may have to go with a larger gasport... Mid-Length is also very good and less prone to short stroking and good comprimise.... Well, I hope this helps...My two cents, but it may be worth less  My 6mm TCU has the same system but I had to run a .095 to get it running right. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/12/2010 5:38:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Well I recorded my first kill with the 25-223 this morning with mixed results.
No deer and our rifle season doesn't start for another month. But I did get a coyote dumb enough to get too close to the house. The rifle and cartridge did its part but I failed to do mine. The coyote was on a good trot and I put the shot too far back. All in all I ended up with a 3/4-1 mile track before I could find it. The bullet was in and out so there was no chance of recovery but there was a rather good blood trail left. My second mistake was going after it as soon as I hit it. I should have let it settle down and die instead of pushing it. Ended up being a rather large male. For what it is worth, you need to see the coyotes around here, we grow them big. This one was larger than my Australian Shepherd. |
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Posted: 10/12/2010 6:20:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Originally Posted By Graycard:
Well I recorded my first kill with the 25-223 this morning with mixed results. No deer and our rifle season doesn't start for another month. But I did get a coyote dumb enough to get too close to the house. The rifle and cartridge did its part but I failed to do mine. The coyote was on a good trot and I put the shot too far back. All in all I ended up with a 3/4-1 mile track before I could find it. The bullet was in and out so there was no chance of recovery but there was a rather good blood trail left. My second mistake was going after it as soon as I hit it. I should have let it settle down and die instead of pushing it. Ended up being a rather large male. For what it is worth, you need to see the coyotes around here, we grow them big. This one was larger than my Australian Shepherd. What bullet? |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/12/2010 8:51:17 PM EDT
[#9]
What bullet?
Speer 100 gr. BTSP |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/13/2010 8:48:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#10]
320pf, glad to see that everything worked-out well with the gasport...both of my AR barrels in 6X45 and 6.5 AR-TCU were short stroking due to a narrow diameter
gasport...both were in the .086" range and were drilled to a #40 guage size (about .098").The SSK 6.5 MPC has not yet been tried yet. I would like to thank all the ARF forum members for there help and suggestions. The 6.5 AR-TCU rounds were loaded rather mild and thus were on the low end on the velocity scale. Testing was with: 100gr. Nosler BT, 120gr Speer HC soft pionts, 120gr Nosler BT....all loaded mild... You can check-out the video clip below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT2hFEMeXMA |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/13/2010 6:15:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Worked up a few handloads last night.
Used H335 and tried 24.5, 25.0, 25.5, 26.0, and 26.5 grs with a 90 gr Sierra Gameking. I still haven't borrowed a chrono from my buddy, should get that on Friday so I tried 2 rounds of each. Little bit of flattening of the primer at 26.5 but no other signs of pressure. I swapped out the red dot for a 3-9X scope, had the scope set at 3x and was shooting at 25 yards. 10 shots with 5 different powder loads into a 3/4" hole. Wasn't really trying for any accuracy. Surprising thing to me was I loaded 2 rounds of each powder charge and starting with 25.0 grs the gun cycled fine. At 24.5 it ejected the round but did not chamber the new round from the mag. I may switch to my A2 stocked lower and see how it functions. |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 12:18:20 PM EDT
[#12]
This was posted in the .257-.277-.284 Wildcat thread earlier this year, but i thought it deserved a repost in this thread:
Originally Posted By Gamma762: Interesting info from this months Small Arms Review in an article The Search for the Optimum Military Rifle & Machine Gun Cartridge: "An attempt to design an optimum military rifle round took place in the UK around 1970. The preferred solution was in 6.25mm caliber, firing a bullet of 100-grains at 2,680 fps. Tests revealed that this matched the 7.62x51 in penetration out to 600 meters and remained effective for a considerably longer distance, while producing recoil closer to the 5.56x45." Maybe we should call the .25-.223 the .25 Optimum. |
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Posted: 10/15/2010 2:41:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Altair]
[#13]
I got my .257 pilot and was able to form some brass and load some dummy rounds up today. Here they are:
55gr .223, 75gr Varminter, 80gr TTSX, 85gr Nos BT, 100gr Nos BT, 100gr Gameking, 55gr .223 I was right about the Noslers, both the 85 and 100 grain bullets can be loaded to mag length. I can't tell the difference between the loaded dummy rounds unless I put them on the scale. I really do think the ogive is identical. We'll see how they fair when I get some rounds loaded since they will encroach on the powder. ETA: 55gr .223 on each end for comparison. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 10/15/2010 10:33:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#14]
I got an email today... The back ordered barrels shipped yesterday. They should arrive at the machine shop by Wed. So I hope to be able to send out barrels with about 2 weeks... May be sooner...I Hope.
I did get a few extra unturned blanks. 320pf |
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Posted: 10/21/2010 3:09:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Gentlemen,
I'm feeling mighty guilty for my lack of contributions to this thread lately. Been absolutely hammered at work and now moved into our new home, so I'll be occupied with painting and finish carpentry and the like for some time in the near future. One of my projects though, is to finish a workshop dedicated entirely to reloading and gunsmithing...so I promise...my contributions are on the way. Can't wait to get this thing running (the .062 gasport is indeed much too small) and some loads developed. Also, at the moment Midsouth has blemished 100-grain .257 bullets for $12.56 per 100. Manufacturer isn't listed, but it's Hornady. I've ordered these in the past in .224 and had good luck with them. I have 700 of these .257 bullets on the way and now wish that I ordered more. Get 'em while they still have 'em! http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/blem_bullets.asp 
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2010 7:31:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dr69er]
[#16]
Originally Posted By wombat25:
Gentlemen, I'm feeling mighty guilty for my lack of contributions to this thread lately. Been absolutely hammered at work and now moved into our new home, so I'll be occupied with painting and finish carpentry and the like for some time in the near future. One of my projects though, is to finish a workshop dedicated entirely to reloading and gunsmithing...so I promise...my contributions are on the way. Can't wait to get this thing running (the .062 gasport is indeed much too small) and some loads developed. Also, at the moment Midsouth has blemished 100-grain .257 bullets for $12.56 per 100. Manufacturer isn't listed, but it's Hornady. I've ordered these in the past in .224 and had good luck with them. I have 700 of these .257 bullets on the way and now wish that I ordered more. Get 'em while they still have 'em! http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/blem_bullets.asp
Yeah, I had to open-up the 6.5mm AR-TCU (.264 caliber) barrel gasport to .096" before she started stroking smoothly. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2010 5:17:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By wombat25:
Gentlemen, I'm feeling mighty guilty for my lack of contributions to this thread lately. Been absolutely hammered at work and now moved into our new home, so I'll be occupied with painting and finish carpentry and the like for some time in the near future. One of my projects though, is to finish a workshop dedicated entirely to reloading and gunsmithing...so I promise...my contributions are on the way. Can't wait to get this thing running (the .062 gasport is indeed much too small) and some loads developed. Also, at the moment Midsouth has blemished 100-grain .257 bullets for $12.56 per 100. Manufacturer isn't listed, but it's Hornady. I've ordered these in the past in .224 and had good luck with them. I have 700 of these .257 bullets on the way and now wish that I ordered more. Get 'em while they still have 'em! http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/blem_bullets.asp
Well my reloading is on hold for a few days. I was messing around with my dies and wanted to try adjusting them differently, grabbed one of the cases 320pf had sent out with the barrel and ran it up into the sizing die without any lube on it. Ripped the rim off the case. Now I got the case stuck in the die. CH4D sells a tool for removing stuck cases, I ordered one on Friday. If I can't get it out with that I'll have to send the die back to them. :( |
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Posted: 10/24/2010 12:07:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: quick1911]
[#18]
VaFish you can make your own stuck case remover with parts from any hardware/automotive store.
1/4-20 tap #7 drill 5/8" nut 1/2" socket for a spacer 1/4" oversize washer and a 1/4-20 socket head cap screw. |
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Posted: 10/24/2010 12:16:50 AM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By quick1911:
VaFish you can make your own stuck case remover with parts from any hardware/automotive store. 1/4-20 tap #7 drill 5/8" nut for a spacer 1/4" oversize washer and a 1/4-20 socket head cap screw. I've never stuck a case, so I haven't yet purchased a stuck case remover (I hope I didn't just jinx myself), but I'm interested in having one for when it does happen. Since I've never used one, and I don't know how they work, how do you use the parts you listed above? My best guess is you drill out the primer pocket, tap it, put the nut and washer on the case head, and thread the screw in and use it to pull the case out. Am I in the ballpark? |
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Posted: 10/24/2010 12:39:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: quick1911]
[#20]
Originally Posted By Altair: Originally Posted By quick1911: VaFish you can make your own stuck case remover with parts from any hardware/automotive store. 1/4-20 tap #7 drill 5/8" nut for a spacer 1/4" oversize washer and a 1/4-20 socket head cap screw. I've never stuck a case, so I haven't yet purchased a stuck case remover (I hope I didn't just jinx myself), but I'm interested in having one for when it does happen. Since I've never used one, and I don't know how they work, how do you use the parts you listed above? My best guess is you drill out the primer pocket, tap it, put the nut and washer on the case head, and thread the screw in and use it to pull the case out. Am I in the ballpark? I think a socket (1/2" I believe) works better than a nut but either is ok. |
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Posted: 10/24/2010 12:42:56 AM EDT
[#21]
This video shows the process. Just replace the spacer they used with a socket and washer.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/24/2010 6:09:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VaFish]
[#22]
That's pretty much what's in the CH4D kit. Drill bit, tap, cap head screw, hex wrench and custom spacer.
Anyhow I did have 30 rounds loaded up. Took it to the range today. Load was 26.0 grs H335, Remington cases, CCI 400 small rifle primers with a 90 gr Sierra Game Point. Used a few rounds to get the gun sighted in and fired 7 shots over a buddy's Chrony Alpha ans the sun was starting to set. Speeds were 2606, 2604, 2594, 2589, 2579, 2606, and 2570. The online SD Calculator I used says that's a SD of 14 FPS. 5 shot group at 100 yards was about 1 1/2" with 3 shots touching and another 2 shots touching about an inch and a half away. I only loaded 3 shots in the mag and then decided to shoot a 5 shot group and loaded 2 more shots before looking through the scope, so I don't know if my movement caused me to shoot 2 separate groups or if that's what the group is. Gun functioned just fine with the gas port as 320pf shipped it. I even put it on a different lower with an A2 stock and shot a few rounds and they functioned fine as well. When I get the stuck case out I'll play with it some more. |
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Posted: 10/25/2010 5:00:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By VaFish:
Well my reloading is on hold for a few days. I was messing around with my dies and wanted to try adjusting them differently, grabbed one of the cases 320pf had sent out with the barrel and ran it up into the sizing die without any lube on it. Ripped the rim off the case. Now I got the case stuck in the die. CH4D sells a tool for removing stuck cases, I ordered one on Friday. If I can't get it out with that I'll have to send the die back to them. :( Interesting. I didn't mention this in my prior post, but I also stuck a case in my first reloading session with the CH4D sizing die. I've never stuck a case before, and just assumed my luck had run out, but after reading VaFish's post I'm inclined to think that maybe these dies are just a little too rough on the inside. Have to be extra careful and maybe do a little internal polishing. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/25/2010 5:51:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VaFish]
[#24]
I'm pretty sure the case I got stuck had no lube on it.
I'm not going to blame it on the dies yet. And I didn't think about it before my last post. I have about 100 cases resized so I can load up some more since the case is stuck in the resizing die and the seating die is fine. |
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Posted: 10/25/2010 10:44:17 PM EDT
[#25]
I've run a few cases through my dies (approximately 20) and so far they haven't seemed different than my other die sets. The dies themselves look a bit less polished than my Redding sets. Regardless, so far so good.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2010 12:05:43 AM EDT
[#26]
While I have had problems in the past forming .223 cases I have yet had a problem with the new 25-223 dies.
While I have had my luck with H322 you guys made me go out and get some H335 to play with. I loaded up a bunch with 87 grain Speer and 100 gr. Sierra bullets tonight and will run them over the chrono in a day or so. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2010 12:10:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#27]
Hi all,
I had a chance to try a few loads late Sunday. In the 20-inch barrel, it looks like the 25-223Ar is close to the factory 250 Savage loads in performance. In a 20-inch tube I can get just shy of 2900 fps. This is also getting close the the 257 Kimber. (Note: most 250 Savage load/velocity data are from a 24-26 inch barrels) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. Both barrel 1:10 twist Powder(R-7) charge wt (g)–––16-in––––20-in 22.5––––––––-–-2609––––––+++++ 23.0––––––––––2666––––––2693 23.5––––––––––2693––––––2743 24.0––––––––––2749––––-––2789 24.5––––––––––2807––––––2827 25.0––––––––––-––––––––-2886 This is from a brand new barrel. Velocities tend to increase once the barrel is broken in. So I think once the barrel is "fire polished" and the bullet forms a better seal in the barrel, the velocities should increase by about 30-50 fps. 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 22.5––––2609 23.0––––2660 23.5––––2693 24.0––––2749 24.5––––2807 This data set shows a nice linear progression, even up to 24.5g. I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 75g Hornaday VMAX seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 25.0––––2890 25.5––––2940 26.0––––3000 26.5––––3016––-velocity curve flattening out...Over Max load?? 27.0––––3079 OVER MAX I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
I had a chance to work with the 25-223AR this weekend. I installed the gas port on my barrel (One of the first two that we had built, a 1:10, 16-inch nominal 0.775-in diameter that is 0.84-in after the gas block). I set the gas port to 0.072-in. in the carbine position. The gun cycles perfectly, It will cycle through a 30pround mag and lock open on the last round. Here is more load data for the 25-223Ar. I had a chance to try Hodgdon H335 today. It seems to be the best powder I have tried so far. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Hodgdon H335 wt.(g)––––––-vel. (fps) 24.8––––––––-2460 25.7––––––––-2560 25.9––––––––-2581 26.1––––––––-2604 26.5––––––––-2624* Over Max?* * load starting to go nonlinear I hope this helps 320pf |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2010 1:29:40 AM EDT
[#28]
320pf, Thanks for the info. That is looking good! Still increasing by 59 fps at 25 grains? Were there any pressure signs at the 25 grain load?
Again thanks for sharing. I am watching with quite a bit of interest as are quite a few others. As we talked about on the phone, getting close to 3000 with an 87 grain bullet puts this in contention with some of the others not based on the 223 case. Originally Posted By 320pf:
Hi all, I had a chance to try a few loads late Sunday. In the 20-inch barrel, it looks like the 25-223Ar is close to the factory 250 Savage loads in performance. In a 20-inch tube I can get just shy of 2900 fps. This is also getting close the the 257 Kimber. (Note: most 250 Savage load/velocity data are from a 24-26 inch barrels) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. Both barrel 1:10 twist Powder(R-7) charge wt (g)–––16-in––––20-in 23.0––––––––––2666––––––2693 23.5––––––––––2693––––––2743 24.0––––––––––2749––––-––2789 24.5––––––––––2807––––––2827 25.0––––––––––-––––––––-2886 This is from a brand new barrel. Velocities tend to increase once the barrel is broken in. So I think once the barrel is "fire polished" and the bullet forms a better seal in the barrel, the velocities should increase by about 30-50 fps. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:56:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#29]
Hi meinidaho,
Thanks for dropping in. The 25 cal. 87gn. Speer Hot Cor is an ideal bullet for this cartridge. It only sticks 0.06" beyond the shoulder/neck junction, so there is room for more powder. You might be able to load up another grain of Reloader-7 (R7). However, I think that 25gn. of R7 is near max. You might be able to get another 0.5 gn. more powder before you get too much pressure. But at 25g, primers etc... are still looking pretty good. At 2830 fps(extrapolated from the 16 in barrel data) from a 16 inch barrel you get a bit over 1500 ft-lbs kinetic energy and from the 20 inch barrel, 2886 fps gives you just over 1600 ft-lbs of kinetic energy Interestingly, in the 20 inch barrel there is only about a 20-40 fps velocity gain over the 16 inch barrel. I think that this indicates that the 25-223AR is pretty efficient at burning up the powder in a short barrel. It calculates out to be about 34% efficient in a 16 inch barrel and about 36% efficient in a 20 inch barrel. Note: Efficiency is the bullets KE divided by the chemical energy in the charge. QuickLOAD gives an estimated energy content for powder of about 180-185 ft-lb per gn. of powder. 320pf Originally Posted By meinidaho:
320pf, Thanks for the info. That is looking good! Still increasing by 59 fps at 25 grains? Were there any pressure signs at the 25 grain load? Again thanks for sharing. I am watching with quite a bit of interest as are quite a few others. As we talked about on the phone, getting close to 3000 with an 87 grain bullet puts this in contention with some of the others not based on the 223 case. Originally Posted By 320pf:
Hi all, I had a chance to try a few loads late Sunday. In the 20-inch barrel, it looks like the 25-223Ar is close to the factory 250 Savage loads in performance. In a 20-inch tube I can get just shy of 2900 fps. This is also getting close the the 257 Kimber. (Note: most 250 Savage load/velocity data are from a 24-26 inch barrels) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. Both barrel 1:10 twist Powder(R-7) charge wt (g)–––16-in––––20-in 23.0––––––––––2666––––––2693 23.5––––––––––2693––––––2743 24.0––––––––––2749––––-––2789 24.5––––––––––2807––––––2827 25.0––––––––––-––––––––-2886 This is from a brand new barrel. Velocities tend to increase once the barrel is broken in. So I think once the barrel is "fire polished" and the bullet forms a better seal in the barrel, the velocities should increase by about 30-50 fps. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2010 9:17:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Stuck case tool from CH4D arrived today.
I was surprised at how easy it had worked. I had managed to pull the decapping pin out of the die and tried to pound it back out with a hammer and brass punch. Couldn't get it to budge. Thought for sure the threads would just strip out of the brass case, but I gave it a try anyway. Drilled and tapped the case, screwed in the cap head screw and started turning it with an allen wrench. It was pretty tough to turn the little allen wrench at first, then suddenly it spun real easy, I thought yep there go the threads in that soft brass case, looked down and the case was out of the die. Now maybe I can get back to the loading bench, but Saturday is start of muzzle loading season.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2010 9:26:19 PM EDT
[#31]
Just ran 4 rounds through the sizing die. All properly lubed with a light coating of Frankford Arsenal case lube.
Worked like a champ. I don't think anything is wrong with the dies, it was the guy that put the unlubed case in that caused the problem. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 10/29/2010 10:14:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Well I had a chance to try some Hornday 75gn VMax bullets in the 20 inch barrel before I sent it off to its new home. The velocities are just shy of 3100fps. With the 75 gn and 87 gn bullets, the 25-223Ar is most defiantly in the same class as the 257 Kimber and the 250-3000 Savage.
Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 75gn Hornday VMax seated to 2.255 COL. Both barrel 1:10 twist Powder(R-7) charge wt (gn)...16-in..........20-in 24.0..........................................2840 24.5..........................................2910 25.0..........................................2940 25.5..........................................3020 26.0...................3000...............3090 26.5...................3016* 27.0...................3079** * This loads was max or near max load in the 16 inch barrel. The estimated velocity for this load from a 20 inch barrel would be about 3120fps. This is based on a linear extrapolation of the data from the 20 inch barrel. **This loads was a max or slightly over max load in the 16 inch barrel. The estimated velocity for this load from a 20 inch barrel would be about 3180fps. This is based on a linear extrapolation of the data from the 20 inch barrel. 320pf P.S. Here are the data for the 257 Kimber and 250 Savage from the Hodgdon reloading site. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp 257 Kimber 22 inch barrel 75 GR. HDY HP H335.....3195 H4895....3192 H322.....3198 257 Kimber 22 inch barrel 87 GR. HDY SP H335.....3030 H4895....3056 H322.....2868 250-3000 Savage 26 inch barrel 75 GR. HDY V-MAX Varget......3254 BL-C(2).....3216 H335........3209 H4895.......3256 IMR8208XBR..3341 Benchmark...3102 Originally Posted By 320pf:
Hi all, I had a chance to try a few loads late Sunday. In the 20-inch barrel, it looks like the 25-223Ar is close to the factory 250 Savage loads in performance. In a 20-inch tube I can get just shy of 2900 fps. This is also getting close the the 257 Kimber. (Note: most 250 Savage load/velocity data are from a 24-26 inch barrels) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. Both barrel 1:10 twist Powder(R-7) charge wt (g)–––16-in––––20-in 22.5––––––––-–-2609––––––+++++ 23.0––––––––––2666––––––2693 23.5––––––––––2693––––––2743 24.0––––––––––2749––––-––2789 24.5––––––––––2807––––––2827 25.0––––––––––-––––––––-2886 This is from a brand new barrel. Velocities tend to increase once the barrel is broken in. So I think once the barrel is "fire polished" and the bullet forms a better seal in the barrel, the velocities should increase by about 30-50 fps. 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 22.5––––2609 23.0––––2660 23.5––––2693 24.0––––2749 24.5––––2807 This data set shows a nice linear progression, even up to 24.5g. I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 75g Hornaday VMAX seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 25.0––––2890 25.5––––2940 26.0––––3000 26.5––––3016––-velocity curve flattening out...Over Max load?? 27.0––––3079 OVER MAX I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
I had a chance to work with the 25-223AR this weekend. I installed the gas port on my barrel (One of the first two that we had built, a 1:10, 16-inch nominal 0.775-in diameter that is 0.84-in after the gas block). I set the gas port to 0.072-in. in the carbine position. The gun cycles perfectly, It will cycle through a 30pround mag and lock open on the last round. Here is more load data for the 25-223Ar. I had a chance to try Hodgdon H335 today. It seems to be the best powder I have tried so far. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Hodgdon H335 wt.(g)––––––-vel. (fps) 24.8––––––––-2460 25.7––––––––-2560 25.9––––––––-2581 26.1––––––––-2604 26.5––––––––-2624* Over Max?* * load starting to go nonlinear I hope this helps 320pf |
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Posted: 10/30/2010 12:43:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Another Great Wildcat!
Keep the post going! |
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Posted: 10/31/2010 11:50:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wombat25]
[#34]
Had the chance this weekend to spend some time on this project.
For reference, my barrel is a 18" with the gas port in the midlength position. The gas port came as .062, but as such would not even eject fired cases. I drilled it out with a #48 wire gauge drill bit - .076 - and test fired. I was using relatively light-loaded handloads (25.0 grain H335 under a 100-grain Speer soft point) w/ a Spikes ST-T2 buffer. Upon test firing, cases ejected about six feet at 4:00. No problems with ejection and the BCG locked back upon firing the last round. Fired cases are hitting the brass deflector, and roughly half of the fired cases had dented necks (like they were slightly flattened on one side). I'm assuming this was because the .25-..223 cases are slightly thinner than .223 cases at the neck, and they flattened slightly when hitting the concrete. So...I'm happy with the results thus far, though with only a few rounds test-fired I obviously need to test further. Going any larger on the gas port seems unnecessary. Now it's time for load development and accuracy testing. 
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NC, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2010 8:29:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Graycard]
[#35]
The weather finally let me go out yesterday and do a little shooting. Starting with new loads, I started light and will work up from here after seeing the results. Everything was out of a 16" barrel.
Speer 87 gr. Spitzer 25.0 gr. H335 - 2528 fps 25.4 gr. H335 - 2565 fps 25.8 gr. H335 - 2631 fps 24.0 gr. RL7 - 2706 fps Sierra 100 gr. Gameking 25.0 gr. H335 - 2484 fps 25.5 gr. H335 - 2546 fps 24.2 gr. H322 - 2480 fps All velocities are average of five shots. I'll step up some of these loads a bit to see how it works out. Everything I tried yesterday shot fine and showed no pressure signs but the 100 gr. load with the H322 is right at max. These loads may have been tried by others but they comfirm the results showed before. 320pf has gotten the same results and the velocities are closed enough to show the variations may only be from a different brand of chronograph and weather. 21 days till our rifle deer season!!! |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2010 11:15:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#36]
Originally Posted By Graycard:
The weather finally let me go out yesterday and do a little shooting. Starting with new loads, I started light and will work up from here after seeing the results. Everything was out of a 16" barrel. Speer 87 gr. Spitzer 25.0 gr. H335 - 2528 fps 25.4 gr. H335 - 2565 fps 25.8 gr. H335 - 2631 fps Graycard, Thanks for posting your results. It is always good to get load data confirmation. I have an orphan result to add to your H335 results for the Speer 87 gr. HotCor Spitzer. I bring a small reloading press and electronic scale to the range and reload primed cases at the range and shoot them right there. I generated this result when I was working up the results for the 100 gr. Speer bullets. The powder thrower was set for 26 gr. and the pressure signs for the 26 gr powder loads for the 100 gr. Speer BT looked OK so I loaded five cases with the Speer 87 gr. and shot them over the chrono. Speer 87 gr. Spitzer (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) 26.0 gr. H335-2681 fps (average of five shots) No pressure signs. 320pf |
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Posted: 11/2/2010 12:06:04 AM EDT
[#37]
I was just looking at some USGI and Pmags loaded with 5.56 and noticed the case necks touch the front ribs on the magazines. With the larger diameter necks on your 25/223 cartridges do you guys have any stacking problems with unmodified mags? I sure there is no problem if you only load 5 or 10 since even 7.62x39 works in 5.56 mags if you only load five or six. Do you have to download the mags to prevent binding? Have any of you guys tested several fully loaded 30 round magazines? Thanks!
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/2/2010 7:55:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#38]
quick1911,
Good question. Yes I have tested fully loaded 30-round mags and the rifles feed fine. So one does not have to "down load" the mags to prevent binding. When you neck up the 223REM/5.56 to accept a 25 cal bullet you end up only moving the axis of the case over about 0.015 to 0.02 inches in the mag. There is enough clearance in the mag to accommodate this. The big problem with the 7.62x39 case is the body taper. That is why 7.62x39 binds in standard AR mags. Hence, 7.62x39 mags have a pretty extreme curvature. I hope this answers your questions 320pf Originally Posted By quick1911:
I was just looking at some USGI and Pmags loaded with 5.56 and noticed the case necks touch the front ribs on the magazines. With the larger diameter necks on your 25/223 cartridges do you guys have any stacking problems with unmodified mags? I sure there is no problem if you only load 5 or 10 since even 7.62x39 works in 5.56 mags if you only load five or six. Do you have to download the mags to prevent binding? Have any of you guys tested several fully loaded 30 round magazines? Thanks! |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 11/2/2010 10:25:06 AM EDT
[#39]
I'll re-comfirm the fact that everything feeds well in the standard magazines. I've tried both 20 & 30 round surplus magazines, new Brownell 30 rd. magazines and 20 rd. PMAGs. Most of the time I've only loaded 5 to 10 rds. for testing but I have also fired from full magazines doing some rapid fire drills. I've have never had a problem with magazines. My speed and skill levels are another story.
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Posted: 11/2/2010 11:43:41 AM EDT
[#40]
Thanks for the reply. I "need" a larger than .23 caliber AR for deer hunting in VA and like what you guys are doing. Lots of good information in this thread! I don't need 30 round mags for hunting I was asking to find out how well the 25/223 feeds.
Thanks again. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 11/2/2010 2:31:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Originally Posted By quick1911:
Thanks for the reply. I "need" a larger than .23 caliber AR for deer hunting in VA and like what you guys are doing. Lots of good information in this thread! I don't need 30 round mags for hunting I was asking to find out how well the 25/223 feeds. Thanks again. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I got my .25-223 barrel for deer hunting here in VA. I'm in NOVA if you want to give one a try. (but it's pretty much like shooting a 5.56 with just a bit more kick) |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/3/2010 11:27:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 320pf]
[#42]
I had a chance to try out some Accurate 2230. All of the loads for this powder shot very tight groups (1 inch or better).
So far H335 is still the go to powder for max velocity. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Accurate 2230 wt.(gr)––vel. (fps) 24.7––––2389 25.3––––2400 25.8––––2431 26.4––––2520 case full, no pressure signs 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Well I had a chance to try some Hornday 75gn VMax bullets in the 20 inch barrel before I sent it off to its new home. The velocities are just shy of 3100fps. With the 75 gn and 87 gn bullets, the 25-223Ar is most defiantly in the same class as the 257 Kimber and the 250-3000 Savage. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 75gn Hornday VMax seated to 2.255 COL. Both barrel 1:10 twist Powder(R-7) charge wt (gn)...16-in..........20-in 24.0..........................................2840 24.5..........................................2910 25.0..........................................2940 25.5..........................................3020 26.0...................3000...............3090 26.5...................3016* 27.0...................3079** * This loads was max or near max load in the 16 inch barrel. The estimated velocity for this load from a 20 inch barrel would be about 3120fps. This is based on a linear extrapolation of the data from the 20 inch barrel. **This loads was a max or slightly over max load in the 16 inch barrel. The estimated velocity for this load from a 20 inch barrel would be about 3180fps. This is based on a linear extrapolation of the data from the 20 inch barrel. 320pf P.S. Here are the data for the 257 Kimber and 250 Savage from the Hodgdon reloading site. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp 257 Kimber 22 inch barrel 75 GR. HDY HP H335.....3195 H4895....3192 H322.....3198 257 Kimber 22 inch barrel 87 GR. HDY SP H335.....3030 H4895....3056 H322.....2868 250-3000 Savage 26 inch barrel 75 GR. HDY V-MAX Varget......3254 BL-C(2).....3216 H335........3209 H4895.......3256 IMR8208XBR..3341 Benchmark...3102 Originally Posted By 320pf:
Hi all, I had a chance to try a few loads late Sunday. In the 20-inch barrel, it looks like the 25-223Ar is close to the factory 250 Savage loads in performance. In a 20-inch tube I can get just shy of 2900 fps. This is also getting close the the 257 Kimber. (Note: most 250 Savage load/velocity data are from a 24-26 inch barrels) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. Both barrel 1:10 twist Powder(R-7) charge wt (g)–––16-in––––20-in 22.5––––––––-–-2609––––––+++++ 23.0––––––––––2666––––––2693 23.5––––––––––2693––––––2743 24.0––––––––––2749––––-––2789 24.5––––––––––2807––––––2827 25.0––––––––––-––––––––-2886 This is from a brand new barrel. Velocities tend to increase once the barrel is broken in. So I think once the barrel is "fire polished" and the bullet forms a better seal in the barrel, the velocities should increase by about 30-50 fps. 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 87g Speer Hot Cor seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 22.5––––2609 23.0––––2660 23.5––––2693 24.0––––2749 24.5––––2807 This data set shows a nice linear progression, even up to 24.5g. I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here are some more load data for the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm) Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 75g Hornaday VMAX seated to 2.255 COL. (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Reloader-7 wt.(g)–––vel. (fps) 25.0––––2890 25.5––––2940 26.0––––3000 26.5––––3016––-velocity curve flattening out...Over Max load?? 27.0––––3079 OVER MAX I hope this helps 320pf Originally Posted By 320pf:
I had a chance to work with the 25-223AR this weekend. I installed the gas port on my barrel (One of the first two that we had built, a 1:10, 16-inch nominal 0.775-in diameter that is 0.84-in after the gas block). I set the gas port to 0.072-in. in the carbine position. The gun cycles perfectly, It will cycle through a 30pround mag and lock open on the last round. Here is more load data for the 25-223Ar. I had a chance to try Hodgdon H335 today. It seems to be the best powder I have tried so far. Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow) 100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel) Charge Hodgdon H335 wt.(g)––––––-vel. (fps) 24.8––––––––-2460 25.7––––––––-2560 25.9––––––––-2581 26.1––––––––-2604 26.5––––––––-2624* Over Max?* * load starting to go nonlinear I hope this helps 320pf |
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USA
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Posted: 11/4/2010 1:15:37 AM EDT
[#43]
I wonder if the 100 grain non-tipped TSX would fit OK in the basic 25-223. The picture of it on Midway's website makes it look like it has a somewhat short ogive and long shank. Not the best choice for hunting at the likely velocities, but might turn cover into concealment as good or better than anything else in that wildcat. Probably wouldn't bounce off a bad guy, either. p.s. Altair, great photo on page 7. Really helped me visualize what you guys are talking about. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2010 10:17:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VaFish]
[#44]
I cut up some of my cases to show how deep the bullet seat.
From Left to Right, 90 Gr Sierra JHP, 87 gr Hornady Spire Point, 100 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. 
I got some of the 87 gr spire points loaded up and should get to the range tomorrow. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2010 11:06:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Originally Posted By VaFish:
I cut up some of my cases to show how deep the bullet seat. I got some of the 87 gr spire points loaded up and should get to the range tomorrow. I have been eyeing the Hornady 87gr spire points as well. They seem to be a bit longer than the 87gr Speer HotCor. What powder(s) are you going to try? 320pf |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2010 11:56:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VaFish]
[#46]
H335 is what I have loaded up.
The Hornaday's are a bit longer over all then the 90 gr Sierra's. The 90 gr. sierra Game King is .895" long, the 87 gr Hornady Spire Point is .91" long |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 11/5/2010 10:55:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Well my buddy with the chrono couldn't make it to the range, so I loaded up about 30 rounds of the 87 gr Hornady spire point with 26 grs of H335.
All functioned just fine through the gun no pressure signs. Still not sure why mine with the original .063 gas port is working just fine and others need to open the gas port up to get them to function reliably. I may pull my gas block off and double check the hole size. Shot at 25 and 100 yards. Strange thing though, at 25 yards had 5 shots in a one hole group with both the 90 and 87 gr bullets. Moved to 100 yards and 5 shots were about 4 inches. Had some of my previous loads of the 90 gr Sierra Game King fired 5 of them, again group about 4 inches. Switched back to the 87 gr Hornaday and put 10 shots into a little over an inch. No idea how that happened. |
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Posted: 11/5/2010 11:33:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Do you still have the ACOG clone on your 25/223? I would look at that first.
I have a chronograph you can use if we meet at the range sometime. |
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Posted: 11/6/2010 1:43:25 AM EDT
[#49]
Originally Posted By agBQ08:
Can't wait to see some data on this cartridge. I'm getting rid of my .308 to go to the regular AR platform for less weight. Trying to decide between .25-225, .300/221, and 7.62x40 (if barrels ever get made again) for hunting. Hope this cartridge works out well for deer and hog slaying. I'm in the same position as you. Right now the only reason I'm still hanging onto the LR-308 is the possibility of rebarreling it to a short mag caliber. I've been looking for a new caliber and I'm now convinced this 25-223 is what I'm looking for. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 11/6/2010 11:18:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: VaFish]
[#50]
Originally Posted By quick1911:
Do you still have the ACOG clone on your 25/223? I would look at that first. I have a chronograph you can use if we meet at the range sometime. No, Gun is wearing a 3-9X Simmons which will soon be replaced with a 3-9X Leopold. (I felt nervous putting the nice scope on a new wildcat until I got a feel for hand loading it.) Still it could be a scope issue. Or a loose nut behind the trigger. But I'm not normally that bad of a shot.
I'm also wondering if some of it is still break in stuff. Others have reported that it took about 200 rounds for their new barrels to settle in and start shooting good. I've only got about 70 round through the barrel at this point. I just loaded up 75 rounds with the 87 gr Hornady's and will try to get some more shots down range. Any chance your are a member at the IWLA in Centreville? If not I could bring you in as a guest. |
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