Got to shoot some rounds with the CFE223 over the chrono on Sunday.

I started around .223 load data and worked up, I think I can go up a little higher on the powder charges although 26.0 grs and the Privi 100 gr felt like it was just starting to compress.  But overall kind of disappointing.

Velocity is the average of 3 shots.  Did not shoot for accuracy.

87 gr Hornady SP,  16" barrel
25.0gr 2,307
25.5gr 2.338
26.0gr 2,396


100gr Privi PSP
24.5gr 2,039
25.0gr 2,114
25.5gr 2,219
26.0gr 2,262

And there was plenty evidence of copper fouling when I cleaned it.

One thing (among many) that the Barnes bullets seem to be very good at is expanding quickly.  The testing I've seen shows very short neck length (usually 1" or less) so 12" should be well beyond expansion range in tissue.

Thanks for the update.

Heres my bolt gun ready to go. A no nut 23 1/4" long 1.25" diameter Lilja on a Savage action, with a Bell and Carlson stock and a Leupold VXIII on top.



I will have better pics hopefully this weekend when I get to the range with it.

Nice looking stick.

very nice! up to what weight bullet will you be able to use?

Im going to stick with 100grs as a heavy probably.  I can seat a 100gr Nosler Ballistic tip out to 2.450" before hitting the rifling so I have plenty of room for powder.  I think 115gr and 120gr will be to much.....I have a 25-06 if needed.

OOh you are going to get some killer performance out of the 25ar in that rifle.

Hell yeah.

Lee Case Length Gage and Shellholder Mod to 25-223

Cut or grind the 223 gage pin back to allow for a 1.7" COL

You have to face the front edge of the shoulder.
With a shorter pin the face will bottom out on the bottom of the case.
I chucked it in a drill and used a file. Pretty simple and it works.

Cut the end off a new piece of 223 brass and epoxy that on the gage as shown.
I cut into the gage where the glue goes with a dremel tool to give the glue
a place to adhere.

To trim brass I chuck the shell holder in a drill and the drill goes in a vise.

The shell holder is finicky to tighten up but it works. May try to cook up a
different type of shell holder that is more user friendly.

The gage is $6 so if you screw it up its not a big loss.

Another option with the Lee case trimmers is to use the .25 WSSM trimmer.  .25 WSSM is a bit shorter then the .25-223 so you have to shim it, or do as I did and just JB weld it to the cutter.

HA, I did not think of that one and I even used to have a 25wssm upper.
I already had a 223 gage so I guess thats why I started with it.

Thanks

Anybody tried the Berger 115 gr hunting bullet ??

Looking around and running some numbers in QL looks impressive.
BC is .466 and SD is .249

According to my calcs loaded long at 2.31 and Hex coated, I should barely be able to
get 2500 FPS out of a 20" barrel.

That pushes the Energy way out there and makes it a decent 400-450 yard cartridge.
I have some long fields I hunt hogs in.

Muzzle - 2500 fps, 1600 FPE

Zero - 200

300 - 1983 fps, 1004 fpe
400 - 1825 fps,   851 fpe
500 - 1678 fps,   719 fpe

The 115 gr Btip nosler would be close and might be  a better choice

This is out of a bolt aciton rifle and Im able to seat bullets rather long.
Got out and tested it this weekend.  Saturday I was group 75gr HP's into about 1" at 100.  I stopped by the local gun shop on the way in from the range and got some bedding compound.  I bedded did all the prep work and bedded the action yesterday by about 2 oclock.

This morning I got the rifle all back together and ran out to the range to see if I helped it at all.  I bumped up my powder charge slightly for the 75gr HP's, today they clustered nicely just over 5/8" for 5 shots at 100.  Than I tried some 100gr Nosler Ballistic tips.  Starting at 21.9gr and working up to 23.0gr.  Everything went into less than 3/4", 22.5gr shot this group.





There were no pressure signs at 22.5gr but 23.0gr stuck a case in the chamber, didnt take much pressure to get it out with a cleaning rod though.  But 23.0gr is out of the question now.  I think the barrel is going to like heavier bullets better.  Once I get my Nosler brass all fire formed I will start working with 100gr SMK's

I can tell you 75gr HP's with 25.0gr of Reloader 7 in my rifle will hit 500 yards no problem.  I turned my turret up 9 MOA for my 100 yard zero and landed my first shot at 500 about 3" up and 5" left of center on a 24" steel plate.

Double post.

That's weird.  My rifle eats 24.0 of RE7 with 85BT and 87 grainers with no pressure signs.  Are you going to chrony anything?

Yea I will get the chrono out when I test that load again.  I was using FC brass which I probably shouldnt be  using to max out the rifle.  After I get my nosler brass fired and than neck sized (more capacity in theory) I will really get after load development.  It looks like it should be a shooter though.  The rifle did finish out lighter than I was expecting and if I draw a buck antelope tag this year I will probably use it.

25-223 fooks chit up. 75gr Hornady HP at roughly (guessing) 3050-3100fps.  Not a bad way to fire form brass and relax after a 12 hour work day.

P-dog I hit low at 215


Ground squirrel I shot in the chest around 80 yards.


Jackrabbit at about 15 yards.....not really sure where I hit it.


P-dog 125 yards......boom head shot


I didnt walk out to get a pic but I killed 3 at the base of the hill, the closest one was standing tall on his mound at 276 yards.


Looks like its going to be a killer little round.

What a mess.
Looks like a shooter.

If you get a chance you might want to check out some 08 lake city brass
Maybe 06 too but I have never measured it. Its at the top of the list in the link below.

1X 08 fully resized formed to 25-223 and trimmed holds 30.65 gr h20
Not sure what it would measure fire formed and only neck sized.

All formed trimmed and fully sized

08 I measured is 30.65
09 is 30.5
10 is 30.35
07 30.3
Win 30.0

It does not sound like much but it makes a difference.

Here is a list of 223 brass capacity for comparison just in case you have not already seen it.
http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html

I actually just formed all my LC 08 into 20 Tactical.

I get alot of LC brass and 45acp brass from the local PD and the Highway patrol though....they dont clean up thier ranges after shooting.

Nice.

The morons at the range I shoot at down here wont let you pick up spent brass any more.

So does that mean a brass catcher in your future....?

They will allow you to pick up your own brass, but you cant scour the range and pick through the buckets any more.

Supposedly people were coming out there with trash cans and wheel barrows, but they could not stop just that,
they had to stop all brass picking by everybody.

At first they had it sent to metal recyclers and it was crushed and ground up which is stupid.
I called the county and told them they were insane and wasting a valuable resource.

Now they auction it off by weight. 55 gallon drums I think

FYI - The PRI 223 magazine doesnt like the 25-223.

You can get about 5 shells in the magazine then it sort of jams up.

I have other mags that load fine, but the PRI 15 rounder does not work well.

Oh well.
There goes the 2.31 col magazine.

Also the 115 gr berger hunting bullet looks like it will barely work at 2,31, but definitely not at 2.26.

Tammons,

I have a box of 50 110 gn Nosler Accubonds that I am going to give a try this weekend.  The 110 gn ABs are 1.19 in. long. I have assembled some dummy rounds an with the cases trimmed to 1.7", it looks like the end of the case is just at the ogive of the bullet when seated to 2.60". I might play with trimm some cases to 1.685" to see what they look like.

The AB's have a BC of 0.418, and and SD. of 0.238.  The Nosler specs call for a minimum velocity of 1800 fps ( Nosler website).

The powley model indices that  2400 fps at the muzzle is possible (with a 16" barrel).  This will give you a ±3 in trajectory out to about 245 yds and about a 210 yrd zero.  The 110 AB will be moving over 1800 fps out to about 310 yds and have about 795 ft-lbs of energy at 310 yrd. Here is a summary of what the trajectory should be (below).  If this load works, it should be effective out to 300 yrds.

I'll let you all know after this weekend.

Range (yds)  traject (in)  velocity (fps)

0      -2.4       2400       1415

100     2.4       2200       1184

200     0.0       2010        983

300    -11.1      1822        811

400    -32.6      1650        665

500    -67.0      1490        543

Also looks like a good bullet.

The Berger loaded at 2.31 at 2525 out of a 20" barrel would give me 800 FPE at 450 yards at 550' above sea level.

For your load QL returns 2420 FPS 16" barrel 110 AB over a stout load of W748.
A2200 2335 FPS
H335  2400 FPS

All at 60k

Dbl Post

2420 would be good.

You listed three of the five powders that I plan on trying.  
H335
A2200
A2230
A2460
W748

If you could post the QL data for these for max loads, that would be very helpful.

ALL QuickLoad info and untested.

ALL 60K so work up
All 2.26
This is with LC09 brass cap at 30.5 h2o
Win brass cap  is 30.0 so if using that back off about 0.3 - 0.4 gr of powder

H335 - 23.6 105.1% 2402
A2200 - 21.2 101.4% 2335
A2230 - 23.5 106.6% 2360
A2460 - 24.0 109% 2376
W748 - 24.4 110.4% 2419

W748 looks the most promising but compressed.

I think there is a value to the QuickLoad data but our real-world results can vary greatly.
In my 16' barrel, I'm getting higher velocities than listed.  Around 2500 fps with the 100 gr. bullets is my norm.  At the same time, I get better velocity with 2200 than I do with the H335.  (The H335 does give me better accuracy)
Each rifle is a bit different and nothing can replace trying each combination for yourself.  The QuickLoad does help on finding loads as a starting point.

Its just a tool.

I usually state that its wrong more than it is right, but it helps a lot with wildcats.
I find most of the times it errs on the safe side.

Its easy to compare all the different powders, compression etc. in the database for your particular round and thats a handy feature.
IE at least you can get an idea is what should work well within a certain group of powders.
The #1 reason I want to try Norma 200 with the 80 gr Barnes bullet if they ever get it in stock.

I mostly use it just for this sort of wildcat cartridge where there is not a lot of info
out there or some new odd bullet etc. Its good for finding start loads.

There are too many variables that need to be fine tuned for any program like this to be right 100% of the time,
IE throat length, primer type, actual burn rates of individual batches of powder. barrel friction, Semi auto, bolt action etc.

I had a 458 win mag a while back and the freebore was so long it was ridiculous, like over an inch,
QL gave me a 65k max when I was actually at about 40k and about 200-250 FPS low. That particular round I was extremely nervous about that load.
I was loading an oddball bullet and I did not want to underload it and cause secondary ignition problems.
That deviation was 99% due to the freebore, IE the primer pops and shoves the bullet into the lands, so at that instant I had a lot more space
for the powder to burn in and lower pressures. I finally figured out that with the bullet in the lands the capacity was the same as a 458 lott with the bullet jammed
and if I used the h20 cap of the lott it worked. The loads I chrono'd after that adjustment were within 2-3% of QL with no other adjustments.

The only way to really get it working right is shoot test loads over a chronograph with the gun, bullet, primer, brass etc
you are using then adjust some of the parameters in QL then it is very close from then on.

Of course by then you also already know your max load so....

I have found, most of the brass h2o is off.
Most of the RL powders are way off on the conservative side.
It errs for every barnes bullet way to the safe side.
Most compressed loads it errs to the safe side.
All very long bullets seated deep in the case it is way way off.

Some of the common shells bullets and powders it is dead on, 308, 30-06 H4895 etc.

Some it just doesnt work at all, 458 socom, 50 beowulf, 6.8 spc used to be way off, 6.5G too,
With those you have to interpolate existing data a good bit then you can get it working fairly close.

You are right about it giving you a place to start.  With the 25/223 that was my biggest problem.  At first I just tried to find similar cartridges to base my starting point and work from there.  A lot of time!

Got the 25-223 out today for some more work.

Good sized dog turned inside out.


Gopher I sent flying.....the rifle is where it was sitting when I shot.


That 75gr Hornady HP really screws them up at close range.




I took it out to 500 yards also, 3 shot group (blue) and a 5 shot group (red).  Not bad for a 75gr HP.



Now that all my Nosler brass is fired Im going to start loading working with 100gr SMK's.  So far I am pretty happy with the way my rifle is shooting.

Looks like you have a shooter.

Interested in seeing your long range results with the 100 SMK.

IMO this round is seriously underrated.

Sorry for posting so many pics of my Bolt gun, I know this is an AR thread but I figured you guys will like the results I am getting with it.

Tested some 100gr SMK's today with H335 powder.  

Again this is with my bolt gun and I am seating them very long.







These are 3 shot groups at 100 yards off the bench with a bi-pod and rear bag.  At 25.3grs it shot 1/2" at 26.2gr it shot 5/8"  I think I know where I need to be at for powder charges so I am going to load up some more in the 25.6gr to 25.9gr range and shoot some more groups and get some chrono numbers.  Im hoping for velocities in the 2700fps range.  I would really like the hit 2850fps and maintain this level of accuracy but I dont think it will happen with H335.  I went up to 26.5gr of H335 today and groups were ok but not like the 2 groups I posted.  Im not so set on speed if it keeps shooting like this.  Hopefully next weekend I can get some 500 yard plus testing also with the 100gr SMKs.

DK that thing shoots fantastic!

I would def just focus on that accuracy screw the speed.

I can't speak for everyone, but I am loving it!  Keep it coming.  

2700 with the 100 gr SMK at 550' AMSL and you will be supersonic out to 850 yards.
2500 and change with the 115 gr berger will be supersonic out to 1000 yards.

Seriously underrated cartridge IMO.

Im at 6200-6250 feet.  400 yards and out is where I ussally target shoot at unless I am working up loads or shooting bench rest.  Close range gets boring when you dont have any doubt.  Yesterday I started at 900 with my 300wsm, went to 1350, and finished at 2040...got hits at out to 1350 but couldnt see my splashes at 2040 to make adjustments.

Agreed. This is fantastic work, and great reading. Keep it coming. Can't wait to see what kind of velocities you're getting with the 100-grain SMK.

DK you need a diesel tech ou there LOL id love to be able to do that!

So far 3 groundhogs all under 150yds, i am loving the 85gr NBT they are one shot dropping the GH's and the bullet seems to vaporize inside them only one had an exit wound so far.

Actually yes.... Wyoming is full of heavy equipment and diesel engines.  In fact I am looking at 4 CATS  2 Deeres, and about 15 semi trucks right now.....I work for the department of transportation building highways ........ posted on my lunch break

Magazine update for loading the 25-223 long.

The PRI 223 mag will take a COL of 2.315" but the PRI 20 round 223 magazine I had would not hold more than 5-6 shells before they bunch up.
It looks like the front rib adjacent to the bullet is deeper than some other generic 223 mags and causes this problem from what I can tell.

The PRI 6.8 mag does not work either. The back ribs at the shell body are too shallow but
it is possible that it could be made to work with some tweaking and a follower change etc.

Just received a "C Products Defense" (not C products) mag. All that is available right now is  a 30 round mag.
So far it seems GTG with a 2.3" COL and that seems to be a good length for the 80 gr TTSX and allows you to crimp
into a groove. Hope to get my hands on a 20 soon.

The 115 gr berger hunting bullet I am trying must be loaded to about 2.34 -2.35 to be on the back side of the ogive.
At least that looks about right.
I will run 5 of those rounds at 2.35 on top of a 2.26 COL normal load like a PH in a milled out 20 round magazine for long shots.

Its raining every day here so have not had a chance to test my 115 gr berger loads, but at 2.35, 2500 FPS should be achievable.

Have any of you guys tried HK (Germany) 416 AR magazines yet, they work fantastic im my .223 based 6.5mm PCC wildcat...

Not me, but whats the max col can you run with them ??

I can run about 2.305" COL max., without any rubbing of the round to the front of mag, gives me about .005"/.008" wiggle room...

Thanks

Velocity numbers are in and thats that, a 25-223 in a bolt gun will match 250 Savage velocities.

100gr SMK in my 23 1/4" bolt gun with 25.9gr of H335, Wolf SRM primers, Nosler (fired than necksized) brass, seated long at 2.470"

Im at 6200-6250 feet above sea level, chrono was at 15 feet from the muzzle, temp is mid 60's today.
1.  2761
2.  2763
3.  2758
4.  2762
5.  2765

Average velocity from this 5 round string 2761.8 FPS
Standard deviation pretty tight at less than 3

You can tell which one was the 2758fps round, slightly out of the group.



I didnt shoot any serious groups at long range but I did shoot the plate targets at 300, 400, and 500 to see how the MOA adjustments were according to my ballistic program....if any of those plates were deer I would be gutting and skinning one out today.

3 rounds 500 yards on a 18" steel plate......turn your sound up you can hear the 100gr SMKs smacking the plate.

http://youtu.be/D8_cyzjj-54

I didnt walk down to look but it looked like about a 3" cluster in the middle of the plate.  11.5 MOA up

Nice shooting

Excellent.

Still supersonic at 1150 yards for you, 950 for me at 550' ASL.
Zero at 200 and 50" low at 500.

Pretty amazing for this tiny cartridge.

I just wanted to post that my Hornady dies will be delivered by the end of the week, and I have TONS of resizing to do, so I will report on the dies.  If anybody needs to know what to order from them let me know...