Altair,

Great stuff keep it up. I do not know if you have come across this or not but here is a link to some gel test that were done on the 300 AAC Blackout (300-221 Fireball etc.. this cartridge has gone be so many different name people are starting to call it the 300 WTF What The F...k. I personally like name that give some linkage back to the parent cartridge "300-221 Fireball").

300 WTF gel test

320pf

I am familiar with that testing and IIRC you and I discussed it in another thread some time ago.  My main interest in the 300 is to test the exotic subsonic expanding bullets.  Nobody loads factory ammo with them (yet) so no gel testing has been done that I know of.

Made it to the range today hoping it'd be informational but uneventful. But like my life which is 50% dull/normal and 50% "adventure" today was the latter.

What I did different ammo-wise....

Instead of Lapua I used Winchester (new) brass for its extra capacity. FWIW in recent years I've noticed Win brass to becoming inconsistant especially in the primer pocket. While using the hand primer the pockets were super loose (like 15+ reloads loose) to super tight.

Switched to the hard CCI No.41 (mil spec type) primer. My thought was to see if I could avoid the flattening of softer primers at higher pressures.

Upped the powder charge with the 90gr Sierra HP GameKing. Using the Win cases made this easier to get the extra powder into the case.

Onto testing.....

Discovered immediately the JP trigger setup would barely dent the hard primer. Swapped the lower off my 25WSSM AR. Had chronic problems with ejection and short stroking which I never had before.

Load 1...23.5/H4198 with Sierra 90 HP GK. Unremarkable, same results as previous test with Lapua brass.

Load 2...24.5/H4198 same bullet. Primers didn't look much different than the 1st load but one primer blew out. I chalked it up to a loose pocket. However, the crap from the blowout started causing chambering issues.
Chrono: 2970, 2961, 2929, 2945, 2970

Load 3...25.5/H4198 same bullet. First 3 shots blew all 3 primers. WAY TOO HOT but the velocities recorded were 3034, 3014, 3014.

Load 4...23.2/H4198, Sierra 100gr SP GK, new Win case, CCI 41 primer. Nothing negative noted on brass/primer. Velocity note blew away in the wind but speeds were around the 2700 ballpark. Wind was bad and getting worse by the minute but popped off a couple rounds at a target about 70 yds. 1/2", enough to load up more for further testing.

First a note on the CCI 41 primers. They're not as good an indicator of high pressure as others I'm used to like Win. The primers that blew out looked fairly normal. They didn't show hardly any flattening or cratering. I still think the erratic tolerances on the Win brass is partially to blame for the blown primers, as well as the increased powder. Back to Win or CCI regular type primers.  

On load 2, H4198 showed more spread in the velocity than I'd seen in the first round of testing. Again, I'm thinking the brass is playing a part. Maybe the chrono was being effected by the gusting wind. I'm fairly new to the chrono so I don't know how sensitive it is to wind.

I've already made comments on brass but will just add that I'm going back to Lapua. Other than the obvious issues brought up, I need consistant results to better draw conclusions. Will I load 25.5 gr into a Lapua case to see if it'll blow 3 primers in a row?....NO!!

The equipment issues made it a less than productive day then the wind increased so bad I couldn't even keep the heavy rifles steady on the bench. I just have a good feeling about the 100 gr load, can't explain it but its strong. Oh....the one mag I brought sat too low in the receiver.

Next time I'll bring the cleaning gear. Left it home since I wasn't going to shoot that much. The match trigger setup has already been changed, swapped the weak hammer spring for OEM type.

I had/have a goal to break 3000 fps with 87-90 gr bullets. But after today I'll review formulas and approach the high end of pressure with smaller increases in charges, i.e. 1/2 grain increases or less not 1 grain increases. I'll probably decide to be happy with 2970 fps.  

Seems I'm forgetting something but will edit if more pops up.

Oh man! that is right up my alley! That is the bullet I wanted to test first.

Glad to see someone beat me to it!

Great write up! thank you for the information.

I suspect I'll be digging around for my 4198 and my different brass to try!

I tested the 90-grain Sierra HPBT fairly extensively last year, firing 200-300 through my rifle. This info is probably buried in the thread somewhere, so I'll recap.

Using H335 I tested loads ranging from 25.0 - 25.8 grains. The accuracy never seemed to equal what I could accomplish with the same powder and 100-grain bullets. Most five-shot groups were in the 1.5"-2" range if I recall correctly. No pressure signs that I recall. I didn't chronograph these loads, due to my inability to get MOA accuracy.

Using H4198 I tested loads ranging from 21.0 - 23.0 grains. Similar accuracy results as with H335. No pressure signs that I recall. I didn't chronograph these loads, due to my inability to get MOA accuracy.

I had more or less written-off the 90-grain HPBT until I tried Reloader 7. Using 22.8 grains of Reloader 7 I was able to consistently get near-MOA accuracy, and I figure that's about as good as it's going to get for me at this point. I'll probably shoot up the remaining 90-grain HPBTs that I have, but I doubt I'll purchase more.

Disclaimer: Your mileage may vary. Use at your own risk. Just because my barrel didn't particularly like a certain bullet doesn't mean anything with regard to your barrel's preferences. I have no doubt that the 90-grain HPBT would be lethal on game, by the way.



ETA re: the post below. Most of my 90-grain HPBT loads would have been fine for deer. Some were worse than 1.5-2" at 100 yards, none were better. Problem was, I was turning in beautiful MOA groups with very little effort with the 100-grain bullets, and as it turned out the 80-grain TTSX was to be my go-to hunting bullet. The 90-grain just didn't do anything for me personally that couldn't be done better by something else. No results at 200 yards, beyond plinking, for which it was fine

1.5 - 2" at 100yds?

I'll take that all day long for deer killin!

any results at 200yds?

Well did ya get a bambi chew?  if so how bout an AAR  

Nope.  The hunt sucked, it was simply too hot for life...when its 90+ the deer don't move during light hours, so we didn't see shit. However, I do know my pet load works on rattlesnake!

To redeem myself, I am going to go on a predator hunt when it cools down a bit.  I have some 85gr BTs loaded on top of 24.2gr of RE7.  I've tested this load before and it seems to just be on the verge of over pressure, with some primer flattening but no cratering or anything.  Out of my 20" it almost hits 3k fps and is damn accurate.

that sucks chew,  now go get some yotes  

any chance the Berger 115 grain VLD's will chamber with this barrel?

Probably not.  At least not without seating them too deep in the case.

So a heads up for you guys i ordered some of midways "blem" .257 bullets 90gr expanding FB, no go way to long. I may be able to single load them but will not fit in the mag. They are even longer than the 100gr BT from nosler.

Thanks I was just looking at them a few minutes ago.  Almost ordered them.

HAHA i figured id save at least one person the $$  I plan to get a sled and single load them  

Finally got to sit down and work the powder tonight got my "ladder"  25 setup
charged 21.5-23gr with H335 under 100 nosler BT in 5 round increments
I know its a little conservative, but this will mainly be a function check, sight in of the rifle

I finally got my hands on two new powders (AA220 and Norma 210) that I thought might show promise for the 25-223AR.


THE STANDARD DISCLAIMER
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.... WORK UP SLOWLY

Here are the results for Norma 201:

Norma 201 (16-inch 1:10 barrel)
Load g––- velocity fps
23.0––––––-2150
23.5––––––-2220
24.0––––––-2260
24.5––––––-2340
25.0––––––-2380
25.5––––––-2430
26.0––––––-2470*
*case pretty much full

This was just a velocity run, I did not shot these for groups. Overall the velocities are not the impressive.

Here are the results for AA2200:

AA2200 (16-inch 1:10 barrel)
Load g––- velocity fps
22.0––––––-2260
22.5––––––-2310
23.0––––––-2380
23.5––––––-2440
24.0––––––-2520
24.5––––––-2610*
*MAX OR SLIGHTLY OVER MAX LOAD

This was also just a velocity run and were not shot for groups. I plan on working up this powder (AA220) a bit more to see how it groups etc..  

320pf

Brent, what bullets?  If you were shooting 100 gr. bulllets the AA220 looks promising.

Sorry! These were all shot with 100gr Sierra ProHunters. I am out of Speer 100gr BT... I have to order some more.

Ok, where can I get a flash hider for this 25/223 barrel?

Does it use the same as an AR10? So just get one of them? Where can I get an AR10 flash hider?

I thread the barrel 5/8-24 TPI

320pf

Fc30 or dynacomp

Since the barrels are threaded 5/8-24 any muzzle device with that thread and designed for a caliber of .257" or larger will work.  I've used .308 muzzle devices on mine but something threaded 5/8-24 and designed for 6.8SPC should work.  In fact, something for the 6.8 (.277") may work better, particularly a muzzle brake, as it will be closer to the design parameters than something designed for a .308" bullet.

Instead of trimming .223 cases, have you guys considered using .222 Remington cases, necking-up, and fire-forming that way?

I haven't because I have tons of .223 cases.  .222 is getting hard to find.

The AA2200 has been a Godsend for us guys with the 6.8. Incredible difference. Hopefully it works that way here too. I'm getting to the point now, that as much as I love the 6.8, my limited budget isn't going to be able to continue to feed it in a way I think is necessary for the impending doom I see this nation falling into. I have started thinking of going to a 5.56 and loading 75-77gr bullets in it for anything and everything, but I keep falling back on the reason I bought a 6.8 to begin with, which was extra range and lethality over the 5.56. I did have only 7.62 guns for myself, a M1A  and a DPMS LR 308, and the wife and kid had the 5.56 AR15s. I moved to the 6.8 to keep some of the advantages of the 7.62 but have the lightweight and compatibility of the 5.56 platform. A shoulder injury made it clear to me that I needed a change. The 6.8 was the golden ticket. This round may be the platinum ticket. Here's why.

My best load, most accurate, and favorite for my 6.8, is the 90 TNT. It will do anything I need of it. It isn't as good as the Nosler or the Hornady 110gr loads past 400 yards, but up to that point it is more than enough for my purposes.

90 TNT 2925fps from a 16" ARP upper. I just ran the numbers, and with that load, and comparing it to your 90gr SMK load at 2950fps, I'm only showing a difference in drop of 2.6 inches difference in the favor of the 6.8 at 500 yards. The energy difference is 30lbs/ft at that distance. That's really not enough to make a difference as long as bullet construction is the same. Frontal diameter is all that is left, and that's not much at all. Now when you compare the heavier bullets in each in becomes a little more advantageous for the 6.8, but still, far superior to the 5.56. The fact that I can pick up cheap once fired brass just about anywhere, or buy cheap surlpus ammo for my son's 5.56 and use that to reload with, is an incredible advantage, since brass is the highest cost component for the 6.8.

I will continue to follow this thread as it develops. Good shooting, and good luck.

The 2950fps with an SMK is from a 20" barrel .25-223, you are using a 16" 6.8 SPC.  I'd expect 150fps less from the 16", so perhaps around 2800fps.  The SPC will always have an advantage in raw power over the .25-223, the question is whether that difference is worth the extra cost in brass and non-standard magazines.

OK then, here are the numbers basically. 90TNT 6.8-90SMK 25-223
The difference when zeroed at 200 yards-which is basically where I keep my 6.8 at when the Eotech is mounted-275 yards with the scope.
        25-223            6.8
100-  +2.1             +1.9
200-    0.0                0.0
300-  -9.8               -8.6    
400-  -29.9            -26.1
500-  -64.0            -55.6

That's still not a ton of difference, until you get to 500 yards, and then it's basically about 10 inches, but if you know your dope, it doesn't matter much.

With a 10mph full value wind, there is a difference of just over 5 inches at 500 yards in the favor of the 90TNT from the 6.8.

Energy in ft/lbs

25.223                     6.8

muzzle1580.6        1717.4
   100-1211.3        1341.8
   200-913.6          1034.6
   300 -679.7          785.1
   400- 500.4          586.7
   500- 366.7          434.5
 
                       

In summation, I think I can live with the differences to a point. Both will easily take game out to 300, and I know the 6.8 can take deer quickly and humanely 400, but I would I would say the 25-223 would be maybe 50-75 yards short of that. Two legged critters, if SHTF - TEOTWAKI, both would easily do 500 yards, and I would say that's probably about the limit you're going to be able to see a Zombie that is really in need of being dispatched in most locales, unless you live where you can see for miles around with little to no cover. They'll be hiding and stuff like that, trying to sneak up anyway.

What I have to do in my mind, is decide if I should make a switch, and if so, do I go 25-223, or do I go 5.56. I don't mind a 20" barrel honestly, and I could always have it cut to 18" if there aren't any made that way. I wouldn't lose very much at all that way with the 25-223.

Those numbers were arranged much nicer before I hit send. They're hard to read now. I haven't figured out exactly how to keep them lined up all nice and pretty.

I think anything that is hit under 300 yds. won't be able to tell the difference.  Besides, in my 25 years of hunting I've only had one shot past that (407 yards). All of the others were under 200 yds. with the majority being under 100.  The 6.5 G and 6.8 are both fine cartridges but you just can't beat being able to use surplus 5.56 for the 25/223.
I have put together a 25/223 and a 7.62x40WT and would grab either one for a SHTF situation.  Living in the foothills of NC and turning 61 the other day, these mountains were getting taller and my M1A was getting heavier.  These two carbines will worked very well as a "walk-around rifle" or as an OMBR (old man's battle rifle.)  I may be naturally paranoid, but I like being able to have a couple of thousand rounds stashed back and the 25/ 223 makes this possible.  I would hate to have to buy the brass for a few thousand rounds of 6.5 or 6.8.  Besides, my goal with the 25/223 and the 7.62x40WT was to find a good 200 yard rifle.  When you start to compare cartridges, you need to use the 5.56 as the baseline and work up from there.  Given my self-imposed range, anything that is shot won't know if it was a 25/223, 7.62x40, 6.5G or 6.8 SPC.  All of these will make the 5.56 look weak, will take any game animals in my woods and serve well as a defensive round.  Choose which ever one you like and I will say you made a good choice.

There's a good bit of powder difference between the two (like 5+ grains)....

Cav Arms lower, carbon fiber handguard, lightweight profile 20" barrel in 25-223 would be pretty spiffy!

That is the point I was trying to make.  The 6.8 will always have an advantage because you can't get away from the fact that it will hold significantly more powder.  The .25 case is very efficient but not enough to make up that much of a difference.  I'm not trying to advocate the 6.8 over the .25, I just don't want people to have the wrong impression of its abilities.  I have 2 .25's and no 6.8's so obviously I didn't feel the difference in performance was sufficient to offset the advantages of the .25 for my purposes.

Well sad Altair and gray. Im goin to mainly use mine for GH's so I cant say anything to the effect on larger game. Hopefully come spring ill have lots of gh photos  ; )

I would actually like to have a 25.  Using standard 556/223 brass, mags and bolts is just fine with me!

Matter of fact, I think my daughter's first hunting rifle will be a 25-223....

That's why I built my .25-223.

Saturday is opening day of gun season.  Wish her luck.

Went to sight in a new scope this morning, and my calculations didn't work at all for poi at 25, and the poi at 100 yards.  I had written down I should be .3 high at 25 yards and 3.9 inches high at 100 Yards with the 6.8 and 90TNTs for a 273yard/250 meter zero. Way off the mark. I had to do the inches/ minutes / clicks drill to get the zero at 100, but backing it up to 25 to test trajectory, it was all wrong. Confused, as to why it didn't match the ballistics info I ran, I packed up and came home.

Folks, double check things when you run numbers. I left the height above bore at 1.5 inches. My scope is 2.6 inches above bore. I just noticed it on the program. I changed it, and that actually would have matched the results.

The reason I am saying this, is that although the numbers I gave in comparison of the 25/223 and the 6.8 are correct as far as the difference between the two, the actual numbers listed are wrong. Those number are 200 yard zeros though, and not 273 as I set my scope for.

Numbers are nice, but they need to be double checked in the field.  Most are close, but real world always throws in a few varibles.
Think about it, if the numbers were always perfect, all groups for the .25/.223 would be .257 inches.

I had a chance to do some further work with A2200 and 100g Sierra Pro Hunters and 100 gr Speer spritzer BTSP. But first here is a little background on A2200 from the Accurate website.

It has it origins as a "one off" military surplus double base spherical powder designed for the 7.62mmx39. It was sold by Accurate as one of their data powders DP-2200. It was available from about 1995 to 1999. During that time it must have built quite a following because the brought out a canister version of it in 2010, supposedly with the same burn characteristics as the original DP-2200.  

Accurate lists the burn rate for A2200 between  (fast to slow) A1680  and A2015/A2230. On the Accurate burn rate chart it is listed as ~ equivalent to RE-7, a granular double base powder. So given that A2200 is fine grained  spherical powder you can get higher powder/load densities in the 25-223AR case volume.  

Here are the results for AA2200

THE STANDARD DISCLAIMER;  USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.... WORK UP SLOWLY

Sierra 100g PH and A2200 (16-inch 1:10 barrel)
Load g––- velocity fps
24.0––––––-2540 ±20
24.3––––––-2580 ±7
24.5––––––-2600 ±9*
24.8––––––-2620 ±16**
25.0––––––-2650 ±8**
*MAX OR SLIGHTLY OVER MAX LOAD
**HOT LOAD!
I also had a chance to try loading A2200 pushing the Speer 100g BTSP from my 16-inch barrel:

Speer 100g BTSP and A2200 (16-inch 1:10 barrel)
Load g––- velocity fps
24.0––––––-2570 ±20
24.3––––––-2610 ±25*
24.5––––––-2630 ±30**
24.8––––––-2645 ±2**
25.0––––––-2670 ±13**
*MAX OR SLIGHTLY OVER MAX LOAD
**HOT LOAD!
These loads were all shot with iron sites and held 3 shots within 3-4 inches or better at 100 yards so it looks like A2200 may preform better than H335.

320pf

Thanks 320pf, looks like a good powder to try for the 223 based cartriges...HHHMMM.

Hmmm that aa looks good

Next batch of little blue soldiers in the 85gr variety  

I went with the Troy TRX extreme (very light weight) but your thinking is the same as mine!  This superlight barrel profile is awesome.

Could anyone generate a pressure vs barrel length graph for the 25-223?  I think some of the reloading software can do those, there's been one for 5.56 floating around for a long time.

Ok so doing some digging, and ran across Hodgons new powder cfe223, any of you guys try this yet? or is it too new.

I cant find it on a burn chart either so not sure where it falls but it moves out an 80gr bullet in 223!
Min––––>23.0  2638  46,700 PSI,  
Max––->     24.4  2785  53,600 PSI

H335 in comparison
Min––––>     20.0  2453  39,700 CUP
max––––>    22.5  2744  50,000 CUP


So what you veterans think?

We even have the same thinking on the Accupoint scope, I see....

It apparently just came out. At the gunshop this week we got our latest IMR/Hodgdon catalogs which has it listed. First we'd heard about it. It looks very intriguing but then I'm fascinated with new stuff. Will be special ordering it later today to test available supply.

CFE223 looks very promising.  But everything I read says it will be available January 2012.

I'll place an order with my dealer this afternoon.

Its in stock at Grafs and some other places. I want some.

I sent my dealer an e-mail.  I'll see if he can get some in.  Hate to pay the hazmat fees for one pound of powder.  Grafs does list it as in stock, but Midway doesn't.  I also sent Graf's an e-mail to see if they really do have it in stock.

It looks like the CFE223 is slower than H335 and just a tad faster than BL-C(2).

BL-C(2) in comparison
Min––––>     23.0  2576  39,700 CUP
Max––––>    25.5  2768  49,400 CUP

I have wanted to try BL-C(2) in the 25-223AR but given the results that I have obtained with W748 (~2550 fps with a full case if I recall) I did not pursue it. It is aways good to see results from different powders. So press on.

Edited to note the the BL-C(2) data are for a 80gr bullet in 223.

Grafs says they have it in stock and ready to ship.  My local dealer is trying to get me some on his next order.