You guys get your dies yet?

I have a set from ch4d, got it from their recent run and also found an old rusty set locally.
Trying to get some things squared away and ill be looking to get leeto make a FCD and trim tools soon.

So I took the 25's out again today.  As I mentioned in a previous post, I had technical issues with my rifle that needed to remedied, so this weekend I rebuilt the rifle, took it out and sighted it in in preparation of my deer hunt coming up in a couple weeks.  With the rifle rebuilt, performace was better than expected.  No chrony today because I was using an already tested load, but accuracy was excellent.  25.1 gr H335 and the 100gr Sierra ProHunter is a winner in both mine and my brother's rifle accuracy wise, and at 2620ish fps out of the 20" barrel, its nipping on the heels of a 250 Savage given equal barrel lengths.  

I couldn't be more happy with the performace and really look forward to killing a deer.

Here is a cell phone pic I snapped of just one of many groups:

I don't remember if that was four or three shots, but it doesn't really matter, since this was repeatable throughout the day. That's 100 yards.

I will post a pic of the rebuilt rifle when I get home.

.25 caliber bullets and re-formed 5.56 cases just seem to like each other.  I've come to expect sub-MOA groups every day.
It should be an interesting hunting season this year.

Have the Hornady dies been finished yet?
also what would a 18" barrel (bead blasted SS fluted) run?

Send a pm or email to 320pf.  I think he may be out of town this week so don't worry if he doesn't answer right away.

Last part of my puzzle should be here tomorrow, cannot wait! in the mean time ill have to pop my 1x4 on the rifle since my 4-16 isnt here yet

What kind of results are the 100 grs getting
and what looks to be the optimum game bullet / powder combo here?
and what are the velocity differences between 16,18, 20"
last question what gas system is most reliable

This caliber is very flexible for reloading.  A broad spectrum of bullet weights and powder burn rates will perform adequately with a few stand outs.  I like the 100gr Sierra Game Kings and the 80gr TTSX's if shooting at something over 40lbs.  I was hopeful about the 87gr Hot-Core but when I shot it into water jugs it didn't hold together well.  The 100gr SGK, on the other hand, performed very well, a good mushroom and held together well.  The 80gr TTSX is just like every other Barnes TSX or TTSX, pure magic but expensive.  

I just recently picked up a ballistic gel kit and I hope to do some formal testing on these rounds with calibrated gel but that may still be a ways off.  The gel is expensive and I need to build a mold.

In the process of making brass now, ill be testing (breaking in) with Nosler 80 and 100gr ballsitic tips over h335.
Should have my first 50 done for this sat if all goes well.  

Has anyone tried n530 or n540?

Do any of the.computer programs model the lapua powders?

Here some pics with temporary PA 1x4 scope





Hopefully ill get some rounds through it this weekend

My Hornady die order went in around 1st of Sept. I was quoted "roughly 10 weeks" so I've still got some wait time.

Finally got around to making up some loads on brass that was worked up for me. The big question for me was Win 748 powder. This has been my 223 go-to powder since it came out, plus a number of 308 and 30-06 150 gr loads. My No.1 223 load has been 26.5 of 748 with a 53gr bullet in Win brass. The brass I'm using for 25-223 is unfired Lapua. Right off I noticed that 26.5 of 748 fills up the Lapua case noticably more than Win cases.

I've been really crunched for time lately so I just picked a couple bullets that I'd be likely to use. Powders limited to H4198 since good results have been posted about it and Win 748. I had a eclectic mix of primers to see how much influence they'd have on pressure signs/velocity.

I wish I had more time yesterday to provide more in-depth results (have enough ammo) but I was fighting sunset and had other guns to sight in. Therefore the 3 shots over the chronograph and no targets. I was mainly interested if any safety issues would arise. That said.....

25.5/748, 75 poly tip Midway Blems (Hornady) Fed Match primer
2644 fps
2682
2648 No signs of pressure

26.5/748, same as above
2714 fps
2682
2701 Slight primer flattening

27.5/748, same as above
2782 fps
2809
2804 Slight primer flattening, look same as 26.5 gr load
This load had noticably more muzzle blast and recoil than above two.

Repeated the same load except with a CCI Magnum primer
25.5/748
2608 fps
2586
2625 No pressure signs on primer

Next...

25.5/748, 75 Sierra HP flat base, CCI Magnum primer
2624 fps
2592
2618 Very slight primer flattening

Next...

22.5/H4198, 100 Sierra spitzer, Wolf Magnum primer
2642 fps
2650
2651 Primers showing flattening, light cratering around firing pin indentation
Wow on consistency!!

Next....

22.5/H4198, 100 Hornady softpoint, Wolf Magnum primer
2639 fps
2650
2650 Primers similar to above load, one primer showed much more cratering than the others. Odd?!?

Last....

23.2/H4198, 90 Sierra boattail HP, Wolf Magnum primer
2840 fps
2825
2822 Slight primer flattening, cratering just enough to catch fingernail.

What to think of this? Well, I was hoping 748 would have a better showing, however I'm not done with it. I plan on converting some Winchester brass to see how much difference the thinner case will make. I was impressed with H4198 results, especially with the 90 gr Sierra BTHP. I'm not going to push this load further!!

My short term goal is a decent deer load. A customer came into the shop today and he is a long time 250 Savage user/handloader. He hands down favorite deer bullet is the Sierra 100 gr Pro Hunter. So that's what I'll try next, probably with H4198.

The new 300 OSSM upper was kicking butt with 150 gr loads pushing 3000 fps but that's another story.

My body and brain are suffering from a hectic day at the shop, so I'm sure I'm forgetting to mention something. So ask away.

Your velocity with the 100gr bullets and 22.5gr of H4198 is almost exactly 100fps faster than what I get with the exact same load.  I'm guessing you have a 20" barrel?  Mine is 16".  If that is the case it would support my earlier estimate of 25fps per inch of barrel length between the 16 and the 20.

Yep, I have a 20" barrel.

Good write-up! Like we discussed via email, I didn't mess around much with H4198––but I will be now I think I started out with 22gns under the 90 hpbt Seirra.  I had no pressure signs––and no accuracy either––so I need to put some more powder in the case and see where the sweet spot is.  

To the rest of the 25-223 users: I've found that 8208 while accurate, is a little slow for the case.  25.7 is a compressed load under the 90 Sierra. I couldn't find my records, but IIRC velocity was only 2600fps with 25.4 of 8208 under the 90 hpbt, CC1 400 primers, in a LC or WCC .mil case.  Under the 100SMK, 25gn is starting to compress, but I'm going to try up to 25.4 gns. Minor bolt swipes, but the primers are OK with both loads. Use at your own risk, YMMV.

Great write up.  Your velocities are right there with mine, which makes sense as we both have 20"ers. The 100 gr Prohunter is a very accurate bullet in my rifle.  How do you plan to push the 90 gr over 4198 faster if it is already cratering? You should try RE7 with that 90gr and see what happens, I have broke 2900 with 87gr'ers.

Well gentlemen/ladies was able to sit down tonight and setup my dies. Made up my dummies in Nosler 85BT and 100BT.






Going to roll some during the week for initail test firing next weekend
OAl is set at 2.236"fit and feed in the magazine

I'm thinking about pushing the 90 gr load with H4198, but very slowly. One idea which I touched on is using Winchester brass. Tonight I converted a Win case and filled it with 26.5gr of 748. The case capacity between Lapua and Win was very noticable, even more than the below photo shows. I estimate the Win case should allow at least 3 to maybe 5 more grains. What impact this will have on pressures, I'll have to see. Another idea I had was to use the tougher "mil-spec" CCI primers to reduce cratering, etc. Not entirely sure the CCI cup is tougher as I've read conflicting info on exactly what "mil-spec" means to CCI. I'll call CCI before making any potentially hazardous decisions.

On bullets for deer. An old gent stopped by the shop and he's a lifelong user of the 250 Savage in an M99. He loves the Sierra 100gr Pro Hunter and has had superb results for many years. He said his velocities are around 2800-2900 fps. So I feel pretty confident that I can duplicate his results if not his velocity. Also I feel confident about the Sierra 90 HP GameKing and have a feeling it'll provide good results at the speed I've already got it going.

My nephew's and my deer tags came in the mail today. We can take 4 whitetail so here's hoping the outdoor laboratory will back up my thoughts.

Here's the difference between Lapua and Winchester cases with 26.5 gr of 748. There's a bit of optical illusion, the powder in the Win case only comes up to the shoulder.

So few questions, i have reread this entire thread again. Im starting to doubt my starting points here?

Was planning on using Nosler BT 85 and 100gr bullets over 24gr h335 to start and ladder up to 26gr (safely of course)
Seems my OAl is off a bit from the rest of you guys, my 100BT dummy measures to 2.236" same as my 85BT, cycled both through my mag with some 5.56 dummies all fed and fit fine.

Am i off here or just not thinking right? i am not encroaching on the lands at all with either load (setup same as i do my 7.5swiss) nor do i believe you can even come close when loaded to mag length.
Double checked all case measurements. Just feel like i have something off?

Thanks guys

The ogive on the 85 and 100 grain Nosler BT's is the same so you will have an identical OAL for both.  I use 2.25" OAL and don't have any problems so you should be fine with 2.236".  If anything it may have a pretty long jump to the lands with that loaded length.  

The limitation on the Noslers is they are very long for their weight, which encroaches on case capacity.  I can get the 85's going fast enough to be useful but the 100's are pretty slow.  That's why I've settled on the Sierra Game King for my 100gr bullet needs.

Good im not going crazy LOL, going to look at OAL again maybe my mags are oddball. Goin to see how they fit in my Pmags. I would like to get the 100gr out more due to the case capacity constraints for sure. Im not horribly worried bout the velocity as long as accuracy is there. The groundhog and paper  wont know the diff.

when i get a second one nite ill see how far the lands are off this Length. Worst case i get a sled and single load these

I would think the 85gr BT or the 87gr Hot-Core would be just about perfect for groundhogs.  The 100gr bullets might not have the rapid expansion necessary for such a small animal, especially at lower velocities.  Regardless, good luck with your loads and let us know how they work for you.

Def goin to try hot cors and vmaxs also, ill update as I go for sure. Thanks for the help

any news on CH4D's die sets being available?

Little update on my question above, re did the rounds out to 2.255 fit in mags and work fine i didnt put othe rounds to offset them once i did that i could bump the bullet out to correct length. Thanks Altair  

The 300 BLK (then known as the 300 Whisper) got me started down the path to reloading and AR variant calibers.  Now I have AR's in 6 calibers and reload for twice that many.  It really is a disease...

Welcome and don't hesitate to ask if you have questions.

Welcome to the other side dryflash

Okay gents, I'm heading out for my deer hunt tomorrow armed with my 25AR.  I'm hunting with my pet load of the 100gr Pro Hunter on top of 25.1 of H335.  Wish me luck!

Good luck! I for sure want a report when you down one.

Thanks!  I hope I get one, but I'm giving my wife first dibs as she's never killed anything before and missed her deer last year.  She's using a 243 with a 95gr SST on top of 40.0 of H4350, its a good load.... though my manhood may be in question as now her rifle is more powerful than mine!

To keep it on topic, I can't explain how much we all owe Brent for bringing this cartridge into fruition.  Its been so much fun designing the barrel, and putting it all together.  I went out yesterday to shoot again, and that damn load I mentioned just doesn't shoot outside an inch, and that's with my super light profile barrel.  For you 25AR guys, try it.

Well I have finally conducted my first gel test.  I shot an 87gr HotCore from a .25-223 with a 16" barrel going 2723fps at impact into a 6"x6"x12" block.  It was supposed to be longer but I had the same problem with the cardboard mold, it bowed at the center and shortened the block significantly.

Anyway, the first thing is that a 6"x6" block is not big enough for rifle bullets.  It didn't help that I failed to hit the perfect center of the block (didn't compensate perfectly for the close range) but I also think the max crack diameter for this round would have exceeded 6".  As it stands, I don't know because the crack extended beyond the edge of the gel block.  I used the 6x6 block because gelatin innovations sent me the 6x6 kit accidentally and told me to keep it so I figured I would try that one first so if I royally screwed up I wasn't really out anything.  Here's what I found:

Neck Length = 0"
Max Cavity = 5 1/8"+
Length of Cavity = 12"+
Penetration = 12"+
BB @ 650fps penetrated 4 1/8"
(Most say + because the crack blew out the side of the block, as you'll see in the photos below)

The bullet fragmented and you can see frag along nearly the entire cavity.  I caught the bullet after it fully penetrated the block using water filled jugs (I was hoping it would penetrate more than 12" so I anticipated this with the short block) and it had a separated jacket and core.  That said, the jacket and core, as well as a lot of frag, ended up in the jug.

Overall, I have to say I'm impressed with this wildcat and load.  I'm still new to gel testing, so perhaps I'm misinterpreting the results but it had zero neck length, the cracks (temp cavity) extended the entire length of the 12" block, and it penetrated more than the 12" minimum standard.  This all looks pretty good to my relatively untrained eyes.

Finally, here are the photos:

Right Side


Top


Bullet


Frag still stuck in jug (it was still wet and they wouldn't pour out)

I had no idea that ARFcom had it's very own signature bullet ...

j/k


Kudos on your test.  Very cool.

Oops, didn't mean to add an e.  

For my first try I'm ok with how it turned out.  I learned a few things, like I need to be more careful about POA/POI at the exact range I have the block set up at and I need to use a larger block for high velocity rounds.  I also learned that I need a BB gun that will hit the correct 600fps velocity to check the gel calibration.  But I'm learning, and hopefully generating some useful information about a wildcat with no gel testing history in the process.

That's an impressive looking shot.

Sweet! I'm sold!

now just waiting for my brl to get here and some dies.... :)

If you are waiting on a barrel and dies I think you were already sold...

Very nice, u plan on tryin nosler 85bt?  If not ill send u some to test

I'd be curious to see how sierra 90gr HPBT's work and the 100gr pro hunters.

Altair,

Nice work!

I have a few questions. How far was it from the muzzle to the jell block?

Is "gelatin innovations" the source for gel block?

Again, Nice work!

I already have plenty of the 85gr Noslers and I will get to them.  I have some 100gr Game Kings, and intend to test them, but I have no ProHunters or 90gr BTHP's.  I'm also gonna do the 75gr V-Max and 80gr TTSX in this caliber.  If I have the time and resources I would also like to do reduced loads to see how these bullets perform at lower velocities but we'll see.  The gel isn't cheap.

The block was 7 yards from the muzzle.  Gelatin Innovations was the source of the gel.  It is the real deal 10% ordnance gelatin.  It works like it is supposed to but the molds are crap.

I plan to do some testing on 5.56 ammo for my department as I'm trying to convert us over to better duty ammo but I figured I'd start the learning curve with some of the wildcats I play with since there is no established data yet.  I'm paying for the gelatin and equipment myself so I can do what I want with it.

ETA:  I also plan to do testing with the 7.62x40, 300BLK (the expanding subsonic projectiles in particular), 5.56, .308, and 300 Win Mag.  Lofty goals, so don't expect me to get to all of it in the next week, or even the next year really.  It will get done as time and money allow.

Holy shit that aint cheap!    damn dude lofty for sure, thanks though

Well I decided to section the bock at approximately 2.5" intervals giving me 5 slices.  I then measured the cracks at true length instead of estimating by looking through the side of the block.  Here's what I got for actual measurements:

0" - 4 3/16"
2.5" - 5 1/4"
5.0" - 5 5/8"
7.5" - 4 1/4"
10.0" - 2 7/8"
12.5" - 2 1/4"

Recovered diameter:  .394"
Recovered weight:  21.1gr

I'm gonna check with Dr Roberts to see which measurement is the correct one, but if this is right then an 87gr HotCor going 2750-2800fps may deliver better performance than the king of the 5.56 defensive load hill, 75gr TAP.  

For comparison, here is a post from Dr Roberts about the 75gr TAP T2:
5.56 mm Hornady 75 gr T2 TAP OTM, vel=2689 fps from a 16" 1/7
BG: 13.8", NL=2cm, Max TC=11cm@12cm from 2-23cm; RD=0.40”, RL=0.25”, RW=30.5gr

The TAP has a max TC diameter of 11cm at 12cm, the .25-223 had a max TC diameter of 14.17cm at 12cm.  The .25 had 0 neck length, compared to 2cm for the TAP.  The .25 TC ran the entire length of the 12.5" block (31.5cm) while it was from 2-23cm (21cm) for the TAP.  Also keep in mind that all the .25 numbers are small because the TC extended beyond the physical limits of my too small gel block.

Before I get too excited, I want to make sure I'm reading the block right.  I also don't have my calibration down 100% (wrong velocity for the BB) so this isn't the gospel, I'm just learning.  I am excited about the potential though.  I'll see what I can find out from Dr Roberts.

Here's a pic of the sections:

Hitting a deer broadside in the heart/lungs is going to be devastating, that's my prediction. Right now I'm concentrating on Sierra 90gr GameKing HP and Sierra 100gr ProHunter bullets. Deer season starts Nov.12 and with two of my nephews we'll have 3 AR's in three calibers. The camera is already packed.

Update: following up on my previous chrono testing post. Bought new Win brass and was able to pack more H4198 into them than the Lapua. Specific numbers, etc will be posted when I get a chance to chrono the new stuff. We'll be in touch.

Doc got back to me and I was right, this test won't be 100% accurate.  The small size of the gel bock can cause the cracks to be larger.  I think the thinner material near the edge when the gel expands is more prone to breaking, making the cavity bigger than it would be in the correct sized block.

Having said that, the test isn't completely invalid and he though the 5 1/4" (13.23cm) is probably close to the correct max cavity, still making it larger than the max cavity of the best 5.56 ammunition.

Sweet, hows it compare to 6.8 and 6.5g in the block?

I don't have the numbers handy but the 6.5 and 6.8 will almost certainly be larger.  I expect the .25 to fall between the 6.5/6.8 and 5.56, which makes sense.  The question is will it perform closer to 5.56 or 6.5/6.8?  I don't know yet.

I am very interested in seeing the 7.62x40.  At close range it should match or even exceed the 6.8, but will fall behind at extended ranges due to the low BC of the light .308" projectiles that it uses.

Awesome flasj your a wealth of knowledge ib reloding forum be good to see you here