Cool.

Well, still waiting for my barrel from Black Hole....was told it would done very soon then ..??? There have been quite a few delays as the original production date was early April........

Maybe before the summer is out.

My vote is for option A with the deer.  The main benefit of necking up the 223 is for larger game and specifically for being big game legal where 223 is not.  Patiently waiting for the final product ... Grin.

Replied to the correct thread as well.

Hey all, busy last couple of weeks.  

My youngest just left; he'll be an Airman the next time I see him, as he left for Air Force Basic today. We did some vacationing in the North East (Maine is Beautiful!!) and then with the holiday and his going away party, well, here we are.

To answer the questions asked, yep, the magazine I had was a Colt with the old school follower.  I have a few USGI mags I've upgraded with the PMAG followers too.  I'll give one of those a try along with the Lancer and a PMAG.

I was hoping to have good results with the 90 sierra hpbt.  Call it confirmation bias, or a self fulfilling prophecy, but the .30 cal 165 hpbt shoot as well out of my Rem700 as the 175 SMKs do.  No, they do not have the same flat trajectory, but they're crazy accurate out to 300 yds (the longest distance I can shoot at the farm).

I have no problems going to the 100 sierras (either the SBT or the SMK) I'll just have to pick some up to try. If 4198 is too fast, what's working best for you guys with the 100gn bullets? I've copied all the loads from this thread onto a word doc, but it's hard to tell the ones that really worked from those that were test bed data listed because they were safe functioning loads.

As soon as I can get back out I'll get the range results posted.

Thanks,

Army03CRNA,

H335 was the go-to powder for the 100-grain bullets for me. Since I was able to get 2540 fps and sub-MOA accuracy without too much load development effort, I felt little need to test further and turned my attention to other projectiles. For reference, I started at 25.0 grains H335 with the 100-grain Sierra soft-point spitzer and tested up to 26.0 grains...I ultimately settled on 25.8 grains for the velocity listed above. I would advise caution, though. These are fairly hot loads. Work up and keep an eye on your brass. Since I'm starting with once-fired brass already, I've gotten in the habit of only using cases twice after forming them into .25-223 brass when shooting these hotter loads. That makes for more brass prep, but a little more piece of mind, especially since we don't have factory reloading or pressure test data for this wildcat.

Certainly though, I don't want to discourage you from experimenting further with the 90-grain HPBT and/or H4198.

320pf,

Great info on the 1000-yard Barnes bullet testing. Very pertinent. Thanks for posting.

Thanks Wombat25,

I may come back to H4198 (works great in the .222 Rem or the .45-70 if I don't) and I still have to wring out IMR 8208. Since I have the 20" bbl, I may get by with a little less powder (regarding your findings on pressures).  It'll depend on where the accuracy node is for my particular setup.  One thing about all of these powders is that if they don't work in this cartridge, they'll work in something.  I used to keep my powder selection to an absolute minimum, picking one powder that would work great in one caliber and so-so in the rest, but I've gotten away from that lately. My OCD keeps trying to get me to back to that but, right now the mad scientist in me is winning and I'm slowly adding powders to try.

If I understand what you said earlier correctly, you have not been able to get your bolt to hold open with the 20"?

That's correct. I also had problems with feeding.  (The bolt overrode the round and caught about half way up the cartridge case.)

Yesterday, I went out and test fired the 90gn HPBT and IMR 8208 with 24.1-24.4.-24.7-25.0 grains; CCI primer, & WCC-86 1st reload brass.  I used a 20 rd PMAG and a 30rd Lancer. The PMAG locked back on an empty mag 3 of 3 times.  It fed 24.1 gns, but not 24.4 (jammed once) 24.7 (didn't feed either the 2nd or 3rd rd).  The Lancer did work with 25.gns.  

Three round groups (As I understand statistics) aren't worth much so more (lots more) testing is in order.  It did tell me if the powder charges I loaded are safe (my primary goal) and they looked good to me. If I can get flikr to work, I'll post the pic. It looks like have an accuracy node somewhere around 24.4––24.7.  I don't think I can go higher to the next node because 25 grains fills the case and I don't think it will be safe. I didn't chronograph anything.  I worry about accuracy first, velocity 2nd; I wish I was setup to both simultaneously––that's another one of my "future projects"

ETA

Hmmm, that makes me nervous as I have a 20" that will be tested this weekend.  The bolt not locking back I mean. I intend to start with 100 gr. Speers over 23gr of H335 and work up from there.

ETA:  I also have some LeverRevolution powder I want to try.... I hope I can squeeze some more velo using this. For me however, reliability is 1st priority (well after safety of course).

WOW!!!!!!!!! I took out the 25ARs today. I will post more later, but the summary is zero malfunctions, almost 3000 fps with 87 gr Sierras, MOA to sub-MOA with all loads, just awesome!  Will post pics later.

Don't leave us hanging, we expect details and photos!
All too often only problems are posted on the forum.  When one works out, I want to see the results.

I've had better luck this week too.  I narrowed a load down to 24.5-24.7 grains of IMR 8208XBR and a 90 sierra HPBT.  I cant' say I have the sub-MOA part down––yes if I count specific 5 shot groups––but 10 shots are 1.25-1.5".  (I also need to work on shooting this "light" rifle from the bench too as I rarely shoot my F-class Rem-700P from anything but prone (with a rear bag) when testing loads, and it will shoot .4-.5" five rd groups all day) Next, I need to get some 100gn bullets as well as some H-335.

My Lancer magazine has been 100%, and a converted USGI mag with a PMAG follower failed to feed just one round thus far.  I have more ammo loaded to run over the chrony––this week I hope!

I don't know why my picture of the target that I posted earlier won't show up the url is there as evidenced by the reply to my post.  Maybe I need a new photo hosting site other than flickr. Any insight on that is appreciated.

I post more data as I collect it.

We had a variety of different loads, starting at 23.0 of H335 and going up to 25.0 with 100 gr Speers.  Despite the difference of velocity, these loads pretty much hit the same point of impact. We could only do 3 shot groups for the most part (I know that you are supposed to do more) because this was the first time firing the rifles, we were more focused on reliability and safety so we basically had six rounds of each load (three for each gun).  But to our amazement, all those groups were pretty damn good, basically around an inch.  Velocity varied from low 2500 to low-mid 2600.   We were seeing some mild primer flattening at 25.0, but nothing of concern to me, because we were using a mix of cases and primers and some didn't show any signs. With some more break-in and tweaking, I think 2700fps is realistic.  We also shot some 87 gr Speers Sierras using RE7 at different charges.  But at 24.2gr, we were getting low to mid 2900 fps and made some holes touch.  I think 3000 fps is doable with these 20" barrels and 87gr bullets.  Our barrels are the 20" SS light weight profile 320pf and I designed shown a couple pages back.

Here is a poor cell phone pic I took out there:



The Twins.

The top rifle weighs 8 lbs and mine on the bottom weighs 7.5.

LeverRevolution is too slow, so I won't be using that again.  It was getting pressure signs early with slower velocities than 335.

Also, we popped a rock at a lasered 403 yards with ease... it was a fun day.

ETA:  The 87gr were Sierra Varmiters not Speers.

I was going to say that LeverRevolution/Superformance is way to slow as I was going to try them for my 6.5mm PCC wildcat until I found-out that
there nearly 100 formulations of the powder and are caliber/round specific. They never stated anywhere about all the different formulations of the
same powder(s)...

I want to try Xterminator and AA2200 next.

What velos were you getting with that load?

I wasn't able to obtain any data until Wednesday.

Here's the data I came up with using a Pact PCII chrony, 1st screen at 10', 2' screen spacing.

N-7rds (I didn't delete any data, that's all I had left of the box to shoot)
AVG: 2670 (2669.8) fps
SD: 23.2
ES: 55.3

That was a Sierra 90 HPBT bullet in 1st reload WCC-84 brass, a CCI primer, and 24.5 grains of IMR 8208 XBR

I think this powder is still too slow; 320pf was able to use 25 gns with a 117gn round nose bullet, and even dropping down to the 90gn sierra, 24.7-25gns is 100% load density. I'm not going to get anywhere near 3000fps with this combination of components (not upset with that, just saying). Next week, I should be able to get some H335, and I hope, some 100gn SP bullets, I do have some 100SMK, I'm going to load with 8208––should make for an accurate, if not speedy, combo.

On another note, as it stands, I'm forced to continually make brass as my reloading setup is stuck on the neck sizing part.  I bought a redding 25 wssm necking sizing die and the case neck is too thin to resize in this die (sizing UP is no problem; I use a Redding tapered 25 cal expander button, and the case neck formed in one step).  I should have gone with my initial plan and bought a bushing die.  I have a machinist making me die body so I can use neck sizing bushings to resize my case necks––it will also work for the 300BLK as I have one of those bbls on my list too.

So, what's everyone using to resize the case necks with; are there that many actual dies for the 25-223 out there?

I was one of the lucky ones that got on early and got a set of 25-223 dies from CH4D.  There was talk of their next run some time ago but I haven't heard anything in a while.

I am really pissed off at CH4D.  They and been promising me dies since April and the date continues to slip.  

The difficulty in getting dies for this cartridge is really holding the development back. I am in Italy this week so when I get back I am going to send the chamber drawings to Redding and have some dies made.  It would be very useful to get an idea of how many dies we need to distribute to the folks that have barrels and those that may want to get barrels if there were dies available. So let me know how many of you need dies and I will place an order with Redding when I get back next week


320pf

We are in the same boat 320pf, I was told that my (6.5mm PCC) dies would be ready by end of May 2011...I put the order in December of 2010 !
Was told a time frame of 16-18 weeks...well here we are still no dies, and I had prepaid for most of the dozen die sets that were
ordered.

I was lucky at the start of all of this and they had one set I could order.

If any of you come up with a better powder for the 100 gr. bullets than the H322 & H335, let us know.
With the H335 this past Sunday my groups stay under MOA and just a hair under 2500 fps.

T, seems like H322 & H335 are the go to powder w/ the 223 based wildcats...I have found that H335 has the best overall
velocity and accuracy potential w/ barrel lengths of 18" and longer...H322 is a "stick" powder and thus bulkier than H335
which is a "ball" powder and seems to do better in a 223 size case...

I really only need the case sizing die, but if I need to buy the set; I guess that's how it goes.  If I get my die made (I'll try and have two made), I'll send one up your way and you can let me know what you think.

Oh, check your personal email, I sent pics of the target from the aforementioned shooting session.

I need dies. You're spot on regarding your comments.

I have high hopes for Xterminator as it is just under 335 on the burn charts and its a small ball.  I got drawn for an October deer hunt, so my brother and I will be stepping up our load development.

I was hunting around town today looking for Sig 229 holsters for two new hires at my Department today and was striking out so I tried a little gun shop I've never been in before.  As I expected he didn't have the holsters (it's a small 1 man shop) but I looked at his powder shelf and there was 1 lb of H335.  I've been looking for some locally since starting with the 25-223 and have never found any local.  I'm looking forward to doing some direct comparisons now.

25x45 Build completed......


Ok, months ago I ordered a 25x45 20" barrel. After quite few months of production delay it arrived Monday.....WooHoo...........I thought it was beautiful to look at and it felt fairly light.

The barrel is a light Varmint contour, pretty much what the other 6x45 barrel contours are from BH. I opted to NOT thread this one as my last barrel a 18" Shilen barrel in 25/223 was threaded and I just did not like it. With the 25x45 its a straight forward up sizing of the 223 case where as the 25/223 cartridge must be trimmed back some....which for me is a PITA. As I like simplicity I went with this and it makes the most sense for me.

I had several months ago bought one of those upper kits from Scott at SD that he ran a special on.....Thank you Scott.

Crappy photo from my camera.....





The upper build was very straight forward and took maybe 20 minutes tops. The longest part as always for me is punching the pin. From then on I just put it together. The barrel nut I just hand tightened and then gave it a little more twist to line the gas tube hole up....I did not torgue it as I think once the hole is lined up after snugging it up the point of would be what??? Or so I believe....people can do as they see fit on theirs but the AR is simplistic in form and I like to try to keep it that way.  No thread lock on any of it.



Once it was all together I ran a very wet bore snake down it and sprayed lots of Rem oil in the upper. I put a lower on it and loaded a 20rd mag of 25x45 cartridges into it and let the bolt go home. It chambered very smoothly and felt locked up solid.....I squeezed the trigger and fired and functioned as it should. I then proceeded to burn the entire clip through it. Perfect feed, fire, and function....yes I know others do it differently but this one is mine.



As I have been shooting the 25/223 for a while now I have lots of load data compiled to start with and plan to begin working up loads for this very soon. More than likely I will be shooting 70gr Sierra Blitz Kings, 85gr Noslers BT, and 90gr Sierra Blitz Kings also. I have quite a bit of data on these already. I also plan to load and test shoot heavier bullets to be able to sort out  what can and can not be used.



Its been a long road on this and plan to make it my main predator round this winter and also plan to take a deer with it also to just see how it performs, which I have little doubt it will excel in.

Up next is a another couple of Wildcats, one based off of the 6.8spc case and a one off of a 308 case I plan to play with but that is later in the year....still waiting for reamers on those.

I think you will like h335.  I've pretty Mich settled on it as my main powder for the .25-223.

I'll be surprised if you can use some of those bullets in the 45mm case without having to single load them.  Perhaps that is your plan.  I know the 85gr Noslers barely fit with the shortened .25-223 case.  That is my biggest concern with the 25-45 Sharps.

My intention is not to step on any toes, but getting a barrel snug then going past just to next slot for the gas tube on the barrel nut may not be within proper torque specs.  This can lead to your barrel loosening from shooting resulting in erratic groups or worse.

Already been there and went past it with no issues.....That 20rd clip was 85gr Noslers. I mainly use Thermamold mags and you get a little extra clearance with them. Ran the 90gr Sierras also with no issues. But as always I could be wrong, I just wasn't with those 20rds.....Now that I actually have a 25/223 and a 25x45 I will be able to see what can and can not be done.....we will see.  I am trimming the 25x45 to 223 case lengths, nothing more. If the 25x45 turns up short comings I intend on posted it as well as the things it does right. Its all about collecting data at this point.




No worries man, I do not take it that way at all....but I think if you hand tighten it, the gas tube hole does not line up correctly....by then tightening it just a little more to get the hole lined up I would bet you would be with in 30-60lbs....I certainly could be wrong but it takes more than a little twist to get it timed correctly.

"I think you will like h335. I've pretty Mich settled on it as my main powder for the .25-223."

Ditto, so far this has given me the best results on accuracy verus velocity.

Ok I loaded 5 110gr Nosler Accubond rounds tonight. I used 20.8gr of AA2015. Actually it was a gentle round when squeezed off. No idea of speed. Someone I am sure has a program that can calculate it as I did not want to break out the chrono as it was evening here when I did this and my chrono does not do well in poor light.

The overall length of Nosler 110 Accubonds in 1.195".  It looks like you trimmed the tips so that they would fit in the mag.

Nope, did not trim the mag, the case, or the bullet.....if I had I would have stated it. With thermamold mags you can seat them out a little farther. The mag does need work if you are going to run more than a couple of these, no way a full mag would run with out it. But then again 3 or 4 rds works for me in what I do.

I wanted to post a few more photos......as  some doubts as to 110gr bullets can be used. In the 1st photo there is a photo of 110gr Nosler Accubond, 100gr Sierra SP, and Sierra 90gr BK. Nothing was trimmed make them fit in the in the mil spec mags.

AA2015 w/CCI primers. Cases were just straight re-sized and loaded. The one thing I was wrong about was thinking you could not load several 110gr AB rounds in a mag and have it function flawlessly....wrong. Real world Actual practical function beat speculation on my part, the rounds were rapid fired and the 25x45 purred like a sewing machine




In this photo of a loaded 110gr AB you see a slightly deformed tip....caused by the bullet seater....no trimming was done



The 110gr AB and the Sierra 100gr SP side by side



I loaded 6 100gr Sierra SP in a Mil Spec Mag, no magazine modification was done. These were rapid fired with perfect feed, fire, and function



I then loaded and rapid fired 7 Nosler 110gr AB, once again using a Mil Spec Magazine with no modification done. Perfect feed, fire, and function.



I also tested a few rounds using Thermamold plastic 10rd mags and had 1 failure to feed. I don't know about the rest of you but I am fairly sure 110gr Accubonds are deer and hog killers. Really the 100gr SP I think would do a fine job on either one also. For any actual deer hunting I plan to use 100gr bullets as the 110gr are a long bullets and I think you give up a lot using it. Just wanted to see if they could be reliably used or not

Just wanted to stop in and say we are reading along with great enthusiasm. The M4 PIP bolt project has had me tied up for a bit, but ATK and Sharps continue to move forward on this project. We are doing some bullet testing currently. Unfortunately, until we've done a lot of Pressure Testing work and solidified the loads between the two companies we can't post "loads" yet, but we are very thankful for all the field input from you folks here. As soon as we get through our development cycle I'll make sure we return the favor.

They left Sharps out to swing too in this department. I have Redding ready to do a run. How many of you would like a set? The more I can get in on the initial order, the better I can get the price to. For you guys here we'll basically move them through as close to cost as I can get them, so this is not a public deal, just for folks on this board, and mostly in this thread. Email me at my private email on this if you are interested. [email protected].

Thanks

Mike

Email was attempted, the email you listed keeps sending back a message saying "address not recognized",

I want 2 sets of the Redding 25x45

I want some dies. two sets.

Email sent.

I looked at the photos that you posted and it looks like the neck is riding up on the ogive of the 110gn Accubonds. Moreover, if the tips were not deformed/shortened they would not fit in a standard mag without riding up even higher on the ogive.

I went back through my design notes from when I was working up the 23-223AR.  Here is a list of the bullets with the shank length and ogive length. When you put it together, these bullets are to too long to fit in standard mags using the 25x45mm case. If you seat the bullet to 2.26 the case mouth will be up on the bullet ogive.  Seating bullet high up on the ogive, even though that they worked in your test, are more likely to have feed issues.

Note: In the 25x45mm case you will not be able to shoot the Barnes 80gn TTSX,  Nosler 100gn Partition, and the Speer 87 TNT. This is a show stopper for me.

Nosler 100 BT
bullet length=1.117
shank length=0.576
ogive length=0.541
case @1.7 COL=2.241
case @1.76 COL=2.301

Nosler 85 BT
bullet length=1.000
shank length=0.461
ogive length=0.539
case @1.7 COL=2.239
case @1.76 COL=2.299

Nosler 100 PT
bullet length=1.035
shank length=0.500
ogive length=0.535
case @1.7 COL=2.235
case @1.76 COL=2.295

Barnes 80 TTSXT
bullet length=1.012
shank length=0.456
ogive length=0.556
case @1.7 COL=2.256
case @1.76 COL=2.316

Speer 87 TNT
bullet length=0.916
shank length=0.369
ogive length=0.547
case @1.7 COL=2.247
case @1.76 COL=2.307

Horn 100
bullet length=0.986
shank length=0.459
ogive length=0.527
case @1.7 COL=2.227
case @1.76 COL=2.287

Horn 75
bullet length=0.867
shank length=0.339
ogive length=0.528
case @1.7 COL=2.228
case @1.76 COL=2.288

Sierra 100 MK
bullet length=1.074
shank length=0.516
ogive length=0.558
case @1.7 COL=2.258
case @1.76 COL=2.318

The Sierra 90 BK is close and probably would work.
Sierra 90 BK
bullet length= 1.062
shank length=0.552
ogive length=0.51
case @1.7 COL=2.21
case @1.76 COL=2.27

These bullets will work in the 25x45mm at a COL of 2.26'
Sierra 90 GK
bullet length= 0.889
shank length=0.471
ogive length=0.418
case @1.7 COL=2.118
case @1.76 COL=2.178

Sierra 100 PH
bullet length=0.957
shank length=0.491
ogive length=0.466
case @1.7 COL=2.166
case @1.76 COL=2.226

Speer 100SPBT
bullet length=0.99
shank length=0.504
ogive length=0.486
case @1.7 COL=2.186
case @1.76 COL=2.246

Speer 87 SP
bullet length=0.832
shank length=0.37
ogive length=0.462
case @1.7 COL=2.162
case @1.76 COL= 2.222

Hornaday 117
bullet length=0.966
shank length=0.59
ogive length=0.376
case @1.7 COL= 2.076
case @1.76 COL= 2.136

Hornaday 87
bullet length=0.891
shank length=0.398
ogive length=0.493
case @1.7 COL= 2.193
case @1.76 COL= 2.253

Sounds good on the dies.....Sounds like we are up to 5 so far, and I just want to be clear that these are 25-45 Sharps dies.

Thanks

Mike

Well i believe i found the caliber for my new build....Is 320 still the go to guy for a barrel?

Yes. That is if you want a chamber that can shoot all of the long bullets that I listed in the above post.

I also have a couple different die(s) solution for the barrel, including getting a die with your barrel.

I sent you an email asking for your contact info.

Thanks 320, as to the die situation has anyone contacted Lee Precision about a die run? I know i got in on a die group buy for the 7.62x45 over on gunboards.

Yeah but it should work with the 25AR (25-223) too right, I don't see why not since trimming is done after resizing.  Unless you guys changed the dimensions of the case other than just necking up... did you?

I decided to top this with a Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40SF  with Nikoplex / BDC Reticle. I think and hope this will be a good fit for the up coming fall/winter predator hunting. Of course the Burris P.E.P.R. mount I am a huge fan of.





Now that I have it scoped I will start true load work on it. Since I have a slew of Hornady 75gr V-max's, Sierra 70gr Blitz Kings, and Nolser 85gr BT,  I will more than likely be working these up the most as I am developing this as a predator cartridge more than anything.

I will also continue work up and shoot a variety of bullets including some listed as not being able to work in this case. If they don't work, I will post it, but I suspect several will be. 2 are already off list, 110gr Nosler Accubond and the load I shot today using the Speer 87gr TNT's.  I get that there may be feed issues, I just haven't had them yet....we will see.


Since I have decided to truly go the 25x45 route I have a 25/223 upper for sale at a reasonable price (Minus the BCG). ....SPF....

There are a few minor changes, but they are within the 0.008 limits of a standard 5.56mm case. I'll post the 25-45 SAAMI specs up, so everyone can use that as the basis for making their own call on what will fit or won't