Its ARFCOM's fault I got relieved for cause this week.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Its ARFCOM's fault I got relieved for cause this week.

Posted: 5/1/2015 5:39:23 PM EDT

So I am getting a relief for cause OER this next time around. After 34 months in command I was relieved on Tuesday.

When I took command a big project of mine was cleaning out the CONEXs. We found lots of crap we could have been using, things to toss, and some stuff to hold on to. One of things we found was a crap load of nutsacks for the M249. We asked BN what to do with them. S4 NCOIC says CIF doesn't want them. They're woodland pattern. 15 years old. Toss 'em. Well that made no sense to me. Joe needs things we can't afford the GPC money is tight. I know there is a market for these. Why would I put them in the trash when I can do good for my Soldiers?

So I post them here on ARFCOM in the EE. We manage to sell about 270 of them over the next year or two. Bought my Soldiers all kinds of great items they needed. Kept track of everything in a spreadsheet so no one could say I profited in any way. Well, the new BN commander asked where we got these high speed RTO packs. Being the honorable commander I am, I tell him the truth. He starts a 15-6. They interview the previous BN CDR so it gets bumped to state level. Takes about 6 months.

They tried to relieve me last month at drill but apparently JAG failed to read the regulations on relief for cause in conjunction with a 15-6 so that got a big red light once I did my homework. Wrote my rebuttal, submitted it, got relieved anyways. Fucking ARFCOM.

Posted: 5/1/2015 9:02:13 PM EDT

[#1]

Really? Nothing from the horde? Maybe I'll take this to GD....

Posted: 5/1/2015 9:11:41 PM EDT

[#2]

Damn that's crazy. What's next for you?

Posted: 5/1/2015 9:14:48 PM EDT

[#3]

"S4 NCOIC says CIF doesn't want them. They're woodland pattern. 15 years old. Toss 'em."

Please tell me you captured that in an e-mail.

Posted: 5/1/2015 10:43:43 PM EDT

[#4]

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Damn that's crazy. What's next for you?

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Quoted:
Damn that's crazy. What's next for you?

Probably going to interstate transfer. I sent previous OERs and ORB to 20th Group folks in MS today. I told them I'd be happy to re-branch to signal, logistics, etc. to join the organization. Not a lot of 11A slots over there. If I stay in Arkansas they're gonna stick me in Joint Force Headquarters purgatory for at least 12 months. BN CDR, BDE CDR, and the state training officer I will be working for now all seem to think I got a raw deal. The Army Commander and TAG seem to have been the ones pushing for it. So, its this weird dynamic where my BN CDR is writing me a relief for cause OER but also willing to call other neighboring BN/BDE CDRs to recommend me as an asset to their organization. I went from the State's recommendation for the Douglas MacArthur Leadership Award and the BDE Company Grade Officer of the year for FY 14 to getting relieved 12 months later.

Quoted:
"S4 NCOIC says CIF doesn't want them. They're woodland pattern. 15 years old. Toss 'em."

Please tell me you captured that in an e-mail.

No, and that's part of the problem. I have email traffic from the sales and texts and things that indicate my NCOs that knew about it weren't super stressed about it, but all the stuff that would really help me was verbal. They spent a good 6 months on the two 15-6 investigations looking for stuff.

Everyone says my "intent makes so much sense, but you're still getting fired."

Posted: 5/1/2015 10:47:05 PM EDT

[#5]

You really, really should have gotten something in writing from CIF saying they didn't want them. I was hoping at the very least the S4 NCO had e-mailed you.

Posted: 5/1/2015 10:50:12 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
You really, really should have gotten something in writing from CIF saying they didn't want them. I was hoping at the very least the S4 NCO had e-mailed you.

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I don't disagree. But I think the reality of it was a more like "CIF doesn't want the headache of them, no one cares if you throw them away instead of turning them in." I'm sure CIF would have taken them, but they would have bitched at us as they did it and they would have thrown them away. Just seems like a hell of a waste to me. I have a hard time abiding irrational shit even if its the letter of the law on stuff like this.

Posted: 5/1/2015 10:56:14 PM EDT

[#7]

Yes, the irony is you'd have been better off throwing them away.

Selling government property is just giving the wrong people the wrong type of attention.

The perverse logic of bureaucracy - there are entire books studying this in the context of why the Soviet state was the mess it was.

Posted: 5/2/2015 9:30:45 AM EDT

[#8]

An NCO doesn't get to decide regulations, regulations do.

In +35 years working for the government in and out of uniform as far as I know, the only ones allowed to do what you were doing are the DRMO people.

Sorry but this just reeks of bad judgement. You might have had honorable intentions but violated the process.

The disposal process is intentionally full of people who check and cross check to make sure that the person who is deeming the material is excess can't benefit from the sale. Yeah, that Frigate isn't needed any more ...

Posted: 5/3/2015 12:44:49 PM EDT

[#9]

Our supply guys used to wheel and deal with the local military surplus guys all the time.
It was seen as taking care of your guys at the time as much as anything
Of course that was years ago so maybe things changed

Posted: 5/3/2015 7:47:39 PM EDT

[#10]

True

You just don't talk about it.

Quote History

Quoted:

Our supply guys used to wheel and deal with the local military surplus guys all the time.

It was seen as taking care of your guys at the time as much as anything

Of course that was years ago so maybe things changed

View Quote

Posted: 5/3/2015 11:59:42 PM EDT

[#11]

You sold Govt property. Doesn't matter that said property was XB3 or junk you still sold govt property. If you just are losing your command feel lucky .

You should have done the right thing and just thrown them in a dumpster .......or took them to DRMO drop them and Cheezit.....

Posted: 5/4/2015 12:30:35 AM EDT

[#12]

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Quoted:
You sold Govt property. Doesn't matter that said property was XB3 or junk you still sold govt property. If you just are losing your command feel lucky .

You should have done the right thing and just thrown them in a dumpster .......or took them to DRMO drop them and Cheezit.....

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DRMO drop for X trade-in credit/receipt

Posted: 5/4/2015 4:01:05 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
True
You just don't talk about it.

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Quote History

Quoted:
True
You just don't talk about it.

Quoted:
Our supply guys used to wheel and deal with the local military surplus guys all the time.
It was seen as taking care of your guys at the time as much as anything
Of course that was years ago so maybe things changed

Exactly. I should have just blown it off and kept my mouth shut. That's the line my peers are using when they harass and make fun of me, "Now what did we learn from this?" I really don't even care about the relief. Mainly just wanted to lead my guys through our AT this year as we have an xCTC rotation coming in. I'm just upset to be losing them, not the paperwork. I can overcome paperwork. Especially when it was the one star who seems to really have wanted the relief and the COL and LTC were against it. She's supposedly moving on soon so people that know me will mitigate the effects in the long term. I just have to get my wrist slapped for 12 months or so.

Posted: 5/4/2015 7:12:06 PM EDT

[#14]

One-stars are funny like that, and they usually get what they want.

Posted: 5/5/2015 8:42:38 AM EDT

[#15]

Wow, that's pretty shitty but I can see both sides.
We threw away sooo much new equipment and shit in iraq, it was disgusting. I can see not wanting to be wasteful, but those stupid regs are a bitch.
good luck going forward

Posted: 5/7/2015 1:36:19 PM EDT

[#16]

Problem is that relief for cause OER is going in your IPERMs and it could (probably will) affect future promotion potential.

What you did makes perfect sense in the real world but the Army doesn't live in the real world. That whole common sense isn't common to everyone thing. I know why the regulations are the way they are but it sure makes for a lot of stupid things we have to do.

It also doesn't help that it's much harder if not impossible to get stuff we need from DRMO now. Used to be we could just go get whatever they had and put it on our property book but now that DRMO sells it through Uncle Sam's Retail Outlet, it gets sold there rather than redistributed to units who could use it. I see brand new stuff on there that is current issue that we could use. Instead, we have to buy new gear at 4 times the cost of what Uncle Sam's sells it for. And, we can't just buy it from Uncle Sam's either. It's prohibited. Makes a lot of sense, huh?

Posted: 5/12/2015 1:44:12 PM EDT

[#17]

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Quoted:
Problem is that relief for cause OER is going in your IPERMs and it could (probably will) affect future promotion potential.

What you did makes perfect sense in the real world but the Army doesn't live in the real world. That whole common sense isn't common to everyone thing. I know why the regulations are the way they are but it sure makes for a lot of stupid things we have to do.

It also doesn't help that it's much harder if not impossible to get stuff we need from DRMO now. Used to be we could just go get whatever they had and put it on our property book but now that DRMO sells it through Uncle Sam's Retail Outlet, it gets sold there rather than redistributed to units who could use it. I see brand new stuff on there that is current issue that we could use. Instead, we have to buy new gear at 4 times the cost of what Uncle Sam's sells it for. And, we can't just buy it from Uncle Sam's either. It's prohibited. Makes a lot of sense, huh?

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You're right. It will probably keep me from my first look at major. I think the upside is that in the Guard, the people choosing to put me in a spot to promote can choose to disregard that OER or place less of a priority on it based on knowing me and my overall performance. Hopefully this is a better case scenario than an active duty board where I wouldn't know anyone.

And they are already talking about ways to "game" my OER so that I get a change of duty/change of rater plus my next annual on a shorter timeline so that I am working towards getting 5 in the bank a little sooner so this one goes away from boards.

Posted: 5/13/2015 11:54:57 AM EDT

[#18]

Thread title is BS. OP's poor judgement got him relieved.

Rookie mistake

Posted: 5/13/2015 11:35:46 PM EDT

[#19]

The title is incorrect… yes, the OP's own decisions are at fault… but in my opinion, his decision was morally right, but bureaucratically wrong.

We are all being asked by the government to tighten our belts, do more with less, and shore up waste.

OP shored up waste. It SICKENED me to see taxpayer purchased equipment in ISIS's hands (not to mention the loss of control of cities we've bled for), and it is just as bad when Uncle Sam's military throws the same away.

There is legally right and morally right. We all bitch and moan about leadership that checks the boxes, does a "meh" job, and moves on to their next promotion.

This one thought outside the box and saved taxpayers money. Morally right.

Sadly, he didn't lie or play it safe, and by big boy rules, he has been punished.

That'll show the next upstart to take any initiative that's not covered in AR-670-dash-we-own-you.

My suggestion to the OP? Accept the consequences like an adult, as an officer, but submit a request for DRMO process improvement to your congressperson. Remind them how much money is wasted to the clueless and inefficient mismanagement of government property.

Posted: 5/14/2015 11:48:42 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thread title is BS. OP's poor judgement got him relieved.

Rookie mistake

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Of course the title is BS. Its meant to be a tongue in cheek commentary on the situation. Try not to take things too seriously.

Posted: 5/14/2015 11:56:58 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
The title is incorrect… yes, the OP's own decisions are at fault… but in my opinion, his decision was morally right, but bureaucratically wrong.

We are all being asked by the government to tighten our belts, do more with less, and shore up waste.

OP shored up waste. It SICKENED me to see taxpayer purchased equipment in ISIS's hands (not to mention the loss of control of cities we've bled for), and it is just as bad when Uncle Sam's military throws the same away.

There is legally right and morally right. We all bitch and moan about leadership that checks the boxes, does a "meh" job, and moves on to their next promotion.

This one thought outside the box and saved taxpayers money. Morally right.

Sadly, he didn't lie or play it safe, and by big boy rules, he has been punished.

That'll show the next upstart to take any initiative that's not covered in AR-670-dash-we-own-you.

My suggestion to the OP? Accept the consequences like an adult, as an officer, but submit a request for DRMO process improvement to your congressperson. Remind them how much money is wasted to the clueless and inefficient mismanagement of government property.

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Thanks for a great post. I agree with everything you've said and that's an accurate perception of both my decision making process and the frustration we have to deal with as leaders sometimes. I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what I was doing and understood what could happen. I understand that I could face court martial if they really wanted to hold me to the fire. You're exactly right though, we whine to no end about the lack of creative leadership and common sense problem solving in the military and then want to punish those who step out of the box. What's the saying about cutting off your nose to spite your face?

I believe I have accepted like an adult. I've already told them that moving me to state headquarters just gives me a chance to have impact at higher levels and that I will simply do my best at that job as well---such that it will only make sense to bring me back to the brigade in 12 months. Part of me wants to give them the finger but if I did then all the good evals and recognition they have given me would prove false and only serve to imply that it was greed for success and not depth of character that drove me to be a good leader in the past. I don't intend to send that message.

At the same time though...FUCK EM for doing this to me. Ha.

Posted: 5/17/2015 1:16:23 AM EDT

[#22]

We had a big warehouse for the ship. Packed full of useless and not useless shit. Command decided they wanted half of it to store the OTH boats while inport. So me and my supervisor got turned loose to toss everything we deemed unnecessary or what we couldn't bring aboard. We tossed thousands upon thousands of dollars of firefighting gear, plumbing parts, and more thousands and thousands of dollars of copper nickel fittings, valves, piping and such in a big dumpster. It was painful. The civis that were working on base were more than happy to take it all out of the dumpster and to the scrapper or to resale. The fucked thing is we ended up repurchasing some items. Was painful to me because I knew there was so much value tossed out that we could have sold and bought good shit for the unit. I also suggested we scrap it our selves but the command didn't want to do the paperwork. The big ship wasn't like the 12 man crew on a wpb where we could scrap shit for a crew slush fund for upgrades.

Posted: 5/21/2015 9:38:32 AM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
True
You just don't talk about it.

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Quote History

Quoted:
True
You just don't talk about it.

Quoted:
Our supply guys used to wheel and deal with the local military surplus guys all the time.
It was seen as taking care of your guys at the time as much as anything
Of course that was years ago so maybe things changed

The "SSS" of supply....

Posted: 6/1/2015 5:40:05 PM EDT

[#24]

eh, seen worse.

You're definitely only getting a wrist slap.

Capt with 34 mos time in the chair? Betting you're in the 5 to 8 year TIS window; you have a lot of time left to recover, and get your 20.

Vent here with giving them the Finger, but that check at 60 matters.

Posted: 6/2/2015 10:51:32 AM EDT

[#25]

Good. Even the dumbest private knows you can't sell government property without going through the proper channels (DRMO, GOV Liquidation auction etc. ) not what some lowly GS 5 at CIF says.

You chose.....poorly and are not reaping the consequences.

ohwell.jpg

There it the right way and the wrong way. Both will get you extra unit funds to properly use but one will get you an early end to your career.

Posted: 6/10/2015 11:50:34 PM EDT

[#26]

Sorry OP, but you of all people should have known better. I mean shit, what the fuck.

Posted: 6/13/2015 3:07:37 PM EDT

[#27]

"Not a lot of 11A slots over there..."

"She's supposedly moving on soon so..."

My mind is full of fuck. Time has passed me by.

Posted: 6/14/2015 4:50:05 PM EDT

[#28]

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Quoted:
"Not a lot of 11A slots over there..."

"She's supposedly moving on soon so..."

My mind is full of fuck. Time has passed me by.

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What do you mean? I don't follow.

Posted: 6/15/2015 2:59:13 PM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:

What do you mean? I don't follow.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
"Not a lot of 11A slots over there..."

"She's supposedly moving on soon so..."

My mind is full of fuck. Time has passed me by.

What do you mean? I don't follow.

I'm just an old, dumb, 6 year man. It doesn't compute in my brain that 11A's have female GO's in their chain of command. Maybe I mis-read your thread, or maybe I just don't understand the military anymore. My take away from this was that you have (had) a job in your branch, and a female GO in your COC pushed for your punishment.

If I have any of this wrong or right, just refer back to my first sentence.

Hell, I was talking with a 25A a couple of weeks ago, and he was lamenting his inability to steer discipline issues within his command, because article 15's are not deemed a good method of encouraging proper military behavior.

/hijack over/apologies

Posted: 6/16/2015 11:34:12 AM EDT

[#30]

Gotcha.

No, you are correct. There is a female GO in my chain of command. I suppose it is kinda wonky though and may be something that would only happen in the Guard. Arkansas has an IBCT, fires brigade, aviation brigade, troop command, and various other separate units on the Army side. She is the Army commander.

Air Guard also has a one star and then you have TAG Arkansas.

Posted: 8/15/2015 8:44:39 PM EDT

[#31]

Your lucky to have gotten out lightly, my old unit would team you a new one for selling anything, no matter how old or destroyed if was. Should have thrown it in the trash and then told your soldiers where it was, the E4 mafia would have handled it from there

Posted: 8/15/2015 9:02:59 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
An NCO doesn't get to decide regulations, regulations do.

In +35 years working for the government in and out of uniform as far as I know, the only ones allowed to do what you were doing are the DRMO people.

Sorry but this just reeks of bad judgement. You might have had honorable intentions but violated the process.

The disposal process is intentionally full of people who check and cross check to make sure that the person who is deeming the material is excess can't benefit from the sale. Yeah, that Frigate isn't needed any more ...

View Quote

Agreed. I see this as 200+ cases of unlawful selling of govt property, and who knows how many unauthorized purchases. Do you have that job position/title, or was that essentially entering into an unauthorized contract each time?

Good intentions, poorly executed. They making you pay back? They plan on contacting all your buyers?

Posted: 8/25/2015 10:58:48 AM EDT

[#33]

Holy crap, thats nuts. Never could understand the wastefulness of the military and gov spending.
There were so many times I can remember like that. We would be cleaning crap and find a treasure trove of old radios,
or old helmets, and what does the head shed say, toss em. Wont even let Joe take one home.....

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:42:19 PM EDT

[#34]

Always amazed me how much our government wastes.

I was an Intelligence Analyst with 5th Special Forces Group for 15 out of my 22 years on Active Duty. Returning from the First Gulf War I was selected for a 90-day TDY working at the Pentagon. It was great, as my mom and sister lived nearby and I got to spend a lot of free time with them.

What blew me away was all of the office equipment and furniture I saw put into the numerous dumpsters inside the Pentagon. Used to take smoke breaks in designated areas where the dumpsters were. I started to fish out good items I knew we needed back at my section at 5th Group.

By the end of my TDY I had the back of my truck literally filled with everything from brand new staplers, 3-hole punches, and trash cans to sitcom battery cases (still in the plastic) and communications manuals for systems we used.

Such waste. And we the taxpayer all get to foot the bill.

Posted: 9/15/2015 1:41:29 PM EDT

[#35]

This.

My supply NCO apparently was notorious for making shit happen, but was very good at keeping my out of it.
As soon as he talked to the wrong people he was investigated an relieved. Nothing I could do for him.

OP, count your blessings you're in the Guard. This would be the kiss of death on Big Army AD

Quote History

Quoted:
True
You just don't talk about it.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
True
You just don't talk about it.

Quoted:
Our supply guys used to wheel and deal with the local military surplus guys all the time.
It was seen as taking care of your guys at the time as much as anything
Of course that was years ago so maybe things changed

Posted: 9/15/2015 1:47:31 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
An NCO doesn't get to decide regulations, regulations do.

In +35 years working for the government in and out of uniform as far as I know, the only ones allowed to do what you were doing are the DRMO people.

Sorry but this just reeks of bad judgement. You might have had honorable intentions but violated the process.

The disposal process is intentionally full of people who check and cross check to make sure that the person who is deeming the material is excess can't benefit from the sale. Yeah, that Frigate isn't needed any more ...

View Quote

yup.

Posted: 9/15/2015 2:04:30 PM EDT

[#37]

OP is in the Guard... Are you AGR? Or do you have a real job? If so are you any good at it? If yes, Just fucking Resign at the earliest opportunity.

You clearly have WAY too much common sense and initiative to be involved with the Army. The chain will fuck you for it every time. If you stick around, and make MAJ it will just get worse, especially in peacetime. For what little pay and benefits you get from the Guard, it isn't worth the headache unless you luck out and find a good unit/chain of command you can stick with.

Posted: 9/16/2015 10:27:39 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
OP is in the Guard... Are you AGR? Or do you have a real job? If so are you any good at it? If yes, Just fucking Resign at the earliest opportunity.

You clearly have WAY too much common sense and initiative to be involved with the Army. The chain will fuck you for it every time. If you stick around, and make MAJ it will just get worse, especially in peacetime. For what little pay and benefits you get from the Guard, it isn't worth the headache unless you luck out and find a good unit/chain of command you can stick with.

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You may well be right. No, I am not AGR but I am currently on ADOS orders. Started on some full time Title 32 orders in April '14 and did all of FY15 on Title 10 ADOS. Start a new Title 10 ADOS gig at CENTCOM here in a couple weeks for FY16.

We will see how things go. I would like to be doing something else in the civilian world. Life has just kinda moved me in this direction and the solid money of a full time captain is hard to walk away from at the moment. Ideally I do this year and next and use my 1,095 days available to me on ADOS and then I am back to doing something on the civilian side. Goal is to pay off some debt and get some experience while I can. I would like to stay drilling though for the retirement as I am already half way there.

ETA: My GOMOR just got filed in my permanent record so at the very least I have probably bought myself a couple extra years as a captain. I am appealing on the basis I'm not so sure the general filing it has the authority to put it in my OMPF instead of my local file. Trial defense is very intrigued and gives me the impression I may have a very good argument for having it removed. We will see.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Its ARFCOM's fault I got relieved for cause this week.

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