Just got back from the John Sevier Hunter Education Center on Rifle Range Road here in Knoxville.  I have been attending here for years and during my time frequenting this public range I have often seen folks using suppressors.  I finally got my stamps back and wanted to try them out so I headed out to my local range.

So here is what transpired today at the Check in Center.

TWRA - Have you been here before?
ME- Yes.
TWRA- What will you be shooting?
Me- .22lr, .308, and I will be using suppressors.
TWRA- I need to see your paper work - VERY STERN.
ME-Sure its in the car, I return hand it to him (plastic sleeved Trust and 3 tax stamps)
TWRA- You can't shoot suppressors under a trust here, only if they are registered to an individual.
ME- Hold ON, I followed all Federal and State Laws you, now I can't shoot these because they are registered under a trust?
TWRA- The commission here decided that's our rules, you can shoot, but not the suppressors.

Both of us are starting to get frustrated at this point.  

Me- So my tax dollars that run TWRA and support this cause mean nothing,
TWRA- we aren't supported by taxes,
Me- yes you are every license you sell is a tax.
TWRA- This is a wild life and hunting management center, SILENCERS CAN'T BE USED TO HUNT. (As you may know already, it is legal to hunt with suppressors in TN.)
Me- I'm not hunting anything, I here to target practice, this is asinine.
TWRA- THAT's IT, I'm writing that down.
Me- What down?
TWRA- That you used profanity.
ME- ASININE is not a curse word
TWRA - I'm not debating this with you.

And I left...

Shortly after I called back and got the guys name I had spoken to and the Range managers name and that he will be there Tuesday.  Sad part is I just looked up the guy I spoke with during the check in and he is Second in Charge.  

I need help and I am not really sure what to do about it. I will call or go back and talk to the Range Manager on Tuesday, but I am open to other help.

It would be one thing if they just didn't allow suppressor, but to not allow trust is just plain crazy.    


Update #1 3/16 10:51am - I have located the Regional Managers name and office number. I have left a message regarding the desire to discuss the JSHC and a issue involving the individual from Saturday. Will update again once I have more information. Beyond this individual there are three additional State Governor appointed commissioners that I have located names and cell number for.

Update #2 3/16 10:30pmWell I must say that I am glad to report some progress has been made.  

My message to the regional manager was returned promptly.  During this call we discussed TWRA range protocol.  Basically his interpretation was that as long as I'm in possession of required Form 3 approval paperwork then it shouldn't matter whether it is a trust or individual.  We really didn't get into the specifics of the original range conversation.  He agreed that there would be conversation internally with TWRA personnel to sort out any confusion.

Now for the impressive response.  I only placed one call today and that was to the regional manager.  Shortly after our conversation I received a second call and voice mail from the TWRA District 2 commissioner.  The commissioner specifically mentioned reading the post here on AR15.com and want to make sure all issues were resolved to the best of his abilities. Our conversation was very thorough and he said I have his full assistance going forward including providing his cell and home phone numbers.  I told him I would be contacting the range manager on Tuesday (once he is back at work).  He asked that I follow up with him regarding this interaction.  We briefly discussed the breakdown in communication, be said he believed bad information to be the root cause.  

While this issue is nearly resolved I would still like to give early props to TWRA management for addressing this issue early on.  

As a side note, when discussing AR15 postings I asked the commissioner how he had been informed of the post.  He stated that the agency proactively looks for web posted material related to the agency.  He also stated that there had been MANY quality individuals working this issue throughout the day.  So, TWRA if your still reading this thanks for addressing the issues promptly.

UPDATE #3 - 3/17 9pm RESOLUTION

Great day today!  Two different phone calls both resulting in very positive continuous improvement for TWRA and JSHC.  

First phone call was with the Range manager of John Sevier Hunter Education Center.  In this call we discussed the circumstances surrounding the situation and the path forward established for ATF items.  When attending JSHC they will request to view your ATF approval form.  As reported earlier in this thread there may have been instances when they made copies of these forms or request to keep them at the front office, this will not be the case going forward.  The manager stated that there had been significant discussion throughout several TWRA regions on how to maintain and establish consistency.  The Range manager did confirm that he would ensure his staff was appropriately briefed to the new SOP.

The second phone call was a follow up with the TWRA District 2 commissioner.  Once again he provided nothing but the finest of service.  We discussed how TWRA internally responded to this specific situation.  Such as consulting with the agency's legal experts to establish a policy that follows existing statutes related to suppressors and class 3.  He volunteered that while he and I have been discussing this issue, he and others within TWRA are continuing to have discussions related to the less than positive reply's that have been posted in this thread.  The commissioner insisted that if I ever experience a circumstance such as this again, that I personally let him know.

To all those within TWRA that have touched on this issue, I say thank you.  We all have chances to make ourselves better, myself included, but what has set this situation apart is TWRA's proactive problem solving attitude.  

For everyone one that had less than stellar experiences, maybe its time to give JSHC a second shot.

That guy is an idiot. Typically I say their business, their rules, but this is a public facility. Tag for outcome.

Are you familiar with tndeer.com/forums There is a "TWRA questions" forum there where you might get some traction with this.

I agree with the tag line of their facility their rules, but like you I feel with it being a public facility there needs to be some more investigation.

After some further research I have found the TWRA is in fact managed by an appointed commission.  I have the name and number of district commissioner, I will wait to contact him until I talk to the range manager on Tuesday.  If it is true that the "commission" passed this rule I have a feeling that this is going to be a lost cause already.

I have not heard of that site, it may be a good option for sure.  I may have to create an account.  Thanks!

No story surprises me that comes out of that facility, there are so many doozies.

One always sticks in my mind -- a friend and I were talking during live fire on a pretty full range. One of the Usual Suspects in charge told us to "Hold it down, people are trying to shoot here!"

- OS

Actually, in their rules it states no NFA items but they are all a bunch of idiots, RSOs and TWRA officers alike. The stories I could tell from the times I would go there would blow the mind. They have criminals, as in arrested several times, working there as an RSOs.

I have had several run ins there as well. While shooting at the bench rest range I asked an RSO about silencers and was told absolutely not. Then while I was there I heard the tell tale sound of a silencer. I look down and there was a guy shooting a silencer. So I asked the RSO why he is allowed to shoot his silencer and I wasn't. I was told he had copies of his paperwork and left them up front. So I went up front, gave them copies of my paperwork and the TWRA officer said I could shoot my silencer now.

A couple of weeks later I went back. I told the officer up front I was shooting at the bench rest range. They asked and I said some 22's and a silencer. The TWRA officer, a different one, got really upset and said absolutely no silencers are allowed. That TWRA officer then told me if he ever sees me with a silencer he is seizing it and I will have to get it back from the ATF. I told them it was registered and everything was legal. He said he did not care and that if I continued to argue he would trespass me from the property or arrest me. I did not argue at all, just trying to explain that is was legally registered.

Another time I was there and an RSO asked if he could have my Coke bottle when I was done. I said sure thinking it was for a spit bottle. When done I handed it to him and he said great, now I can build a silencer. I watched him stuff it with toilet paper then duct tape it to the barrel of a pistol. After which he proudly showed it off to everyone up and down the firing line. He declared that it was legal to the crowd that had amassed for his first test shot. And then he fired it and it seemed to impress some of the shooters. Probably enough that several of them now have a Coke bottle silencer that the RSO declared legal. That will not be a defense when they get caught and sentenced to 10 years in the nearest federal "pound me in the a**" facility. He said it was legal because it did not have a serial number and that once it has a serial number it becomes illegal.

I have had them threaten to kick me off the property when I told them the brass they were picking up belonged to me. They said once it hits the ground it becomes range property. On another trip I had one taking my brass and when I called him on it he said "prove it". So the next trip I had brass that I pained the bottoms pink. I was shooting and the same guy was picking up my brass. I told him that was my brass and, as usual, he said prove it. I told him the bottom of my brass is pink. He looked at the handful and then rather than give it to me he just dropped them all for me to pick back up. I have watched them catch brass in their pockets as it gets ejected.

I have also had stuff go missing. Caught one RSO going through my bags when I got back from changing targets. It startled him when I asked him what he was doing and stammered a bit saying he needed to inspect my bags to see what I brought. I went over and zipped up the bag and closed the cases. Then when I got home I was unloading the bag and realized I was missing a set of iron sights. I have had them grab foam ear plugs of mine to give to other people at the range that forgot theirs. I would have no problem giving them away to someone that needed them but doing it without my permission really pissed me off.

And ANYTIME you question what they are saying they threaten to have to trespassed from the property or arrested.

The final straw that made me walk away never to return is this. They have an agreement, or at least did, with the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts get all the scrap brass to recycle and use to help fund the local troop. Sounds like a good deal except there is one RSO that takes a lot of the brass. He then trades the brass to a local shop for parts and accessories. I know this because I watched him digging through the Boy Scout can as I was leaving the range one day. About an hour later he shows up at local shop I was hanging out in with a box in his hands saying he got a lot of useable brass that day. He then trades the brass to the shop for some parts. He is a personable guy but in the end it pissed me off because he is taking funds away from the Boy Scouts and using it for his own gain.

It might be a bit of a drive for you, like it is for me, but Norris is a much better range. $40 a year and the have two pistol ranges and their long range is ~100 yards and 200 yards. You can shoot anything you want except machine guns. Also, it is big boy rules with no range safety officers around. Yes you do see some stupid stuff there but I would rather see some stupid stuff than be treated like I was treated at the Volunteer range.

OP, contact your state rep and tell them what happened. Depending on how conservative/liberal they are, they may help you out.

I have found my two local State Reps and the local regional office for TWRA. Monday I will be calling the TWRA office to see who is in charge of the range program and then call that person. My main goal is to find out the justification, bring light to the situation, and possible have some impact.

I also found the commission head for district #2 , Mr. Cannon, the TWRA web site even has his cell number listed. At some point I will be calling him as well. He is a fairly well known business owner here in Knoxville. Maybe he will have some sense.

You have range officers and such at your TWRA range?

Jeez.... the Cheatham County one is slightly less regulated than your average frontier town saloon.

 
You got that right. I've had too many run-ins with MAJOR idiots at the Cheatham range. I've stopped going there altogether and that sucks because my uncle lives up that way and I like to visit and shoot with him.




 

Without a doubt, the guys who run the JS Range are some of the biggest idiots you will ever meet. Like an overzealous rangemaster, gun store employee and gun store customer all rolled up into one.

I've only been to the John Sevier range a few times. The RO's left me alone, but I saw them being total dices to other shooters. Haven't been back.
I go to the Loudon Co sheriff dept range off of Sugar Limb Rd exit off I-75 now.

Went to the JS range one time, on the one or two days a week they decide
to be open.  

It stated on the gate when they opened.  I arrived approximately 15 minutes
AFTER the posted time.  Gate was locked, and they made no attempt to open
it.  After waiting another 15 minutes, they finally opened the gate.  

At check in, I was greeted with the usual attitude and basically treated like a
criminal.  RSO was OK as far as attitude goes.  While I was shooting, the Coke
truck showed up, and RSO called a cease fire while he filled all the drink machines.

This cease fire lasted about 45 minutes.  I didn't think much of it, and the RSO told
me to tell the guy up front to take 45 minutes off my range time, so I would'nt have to
pay for the time I couldn't shoot.  Told the guy up front like he told me too, and was told he
didn't care about any of that, and I would pay since I was here no matter what the RSO
said.  

Paid my fee and left, and have never been back.   I have my own land and range to shoot on,
so I will not go back either.

Yup. That place is awful. Two bad experiences there and never went back. RO said you could only shoot handguns from a rest.

It isn't just the RSOs with problems, some of the customers cause problems as well.

My wife was shooting skeet with a 410 when another customer, wearing all Benelli clothing to match his shotgun, reported her. He told the RSO that she should not be allowed to shoot such a small gun. Had the idiot known he would have realized it takes a lot more skill with a 410 than the 12 gauge he was using. After that we went to the bench rest range and found the same idiot there. He proclaimed his SIG 516 was better than any M4 and a few groupies asked why. Then this jewel cam out of his mouth. He said out of an M4 the M855 only does 3,000 fps but out of his SIG M855 goes 6,000 fps. And all the groupies ate it up as gospel.

I have had other customers tell me my guns and my silencer are illegal. I have had customers take MY foam ear plugs without asking. They have picked up my brass without asking then get pissed when I thank them for picking up MY brass. On several occasions I have had customers remove the range owned spotting scope, that I was responsible for, from my bench while I was in the bathroom.

The whole place is just ate up.

The place seems to have just gotten worse since I started my self-imposed boycott of them about 5yrs ago.

Oh, and the whole "you leave your NFA paperwork with the guy up front"? Yeeaahhhhh....not gonna happen.

Update #2 in OP.

That's really great news! Congrats on getting some positive progress. With good leadership like you're reporting, I'm betting that place will start improving as corrections are implemented.

wow ,this is why we shoot on our's or friends land

this isn't GD, can you still pee on people that deserve to be put in thier place

Very impressive response by the TWRA.

Wow, I must agree. Very cool to hear they care about our community. Hopefully, they follow through.

UPDATE #3 in OP.  Resolution!

Very good outcome. This makes me feel better about defending the TWRA ammo tax earlier this week.

I tend to think that TWRA has no business seeing your stamp, as they do not check to make sure you are not a prohibited person / run a TICS check / have you fill out a 4473 for a non-NFA weapon, why the additional scrutiny for NFA? Treating those that own NFA devices as though they are criminals until proven otherwise is disrespectful at best. (Yes, I am aware that our state laws are dumb with regards to NFA and that we're still an affirmative defense state)

If TWRA feels so compelled to double check compliance with 18 USC 922 and 26 USC 5800, are they going to start doing 922(r) part count checks on the TAPCO fucked SKS's?

Cool

I should have had you call for me!  Thank you for posting those statutes, looks like I can educate myself a little bit more.  Where can I find more information about the affirmative defense requirements?

Thanks!

Tennessee law basically says "NFA devices are illegal, but if you have it properly registered per the NFA you can use that to defend against prosecution."

http://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2010/title-39/chapter-17/part-13/39-17-1302

wow good to hear a positive outcome, good job and thank you

I would like to hear how the next trip to that ranges goes? If the staff will follow the TWRA leadership on this.

My guess is that the "reeducation" will wear off, and the same ole culture will take back over.

- OS

Outstanding work!







 

That's why they need a written policy.

As a whole, I really like TWRA and am proud to have them taking care of our state wildlife areas.  But the saddest thing is that the closest interaction I have with TWRA officers are at the JS range, and I can't stand them.  I've never had a problem with the RSOs there, and every time I've gone or taken someone, they have been pretty down-to-earth guys.  (I go during the week) The guy up front has serious, serious "respect-my-authority" issues.  It's funny about the earlier comment, because the only places I'm looked at, and treated as though I'm a criminal or otherwise piece of shit is when I'm at a gun store or at the John Sevier front office.  One has to know it is possible to be in a similar position and not be such a jerk.  And seeing bad people all the time is never an excuse for a public servant to treat all people as bad.

It's happened now too many times for me to think anything will change through corrective action, and I now just don't go there, nor do I recommend anyone who wants to learn how to shoot to go there.  Which is really a shame because I know there are good people somewhere there.