User Panel
Posted: 9/20/2007 9:01:32 AM EDT
http://www.coltcco.com/?p=187
Wow, i was at coal creek armory (where that guy works) Tuesday. Next time, I'm going to ask him about it. |
|
|
SUE. HIS. ASS. OFF.
Sue the department, too. Make condition one of the settlement (they WILL try to settle) the immediate firing of the asswipe cop, with NO pension. Get the security tape from Wal-Mart. It is a shame, but today, you just have to sue the bastards. |
|
I hope he sues the everliving shit out of them. Ever since I went to the UT v MTSU football game there several years ago I have despised the jerk-offs they call cops in that city. TN law does not require concealment.
|
|
i would tend to agree with the 'sue' statements. file an official complaint against him at the PD, and call a press conference on it.
take them to task, and call them on it. they may enforce the law, but they are not the law. |
|
GET THAT SECURITY TAPE! |
|
|
From the blog entry (address at the top of the first post in this thread), it appears the department's response is to issue a letter of reprimand to the officer, require the officer to attend additional training in TN carry permit law and in dealing with the public, include training in TN carry permit law with the next in service training for all knoxville pd officers, and an apology from the chief of police.
Offenses (assuming the events occured as written) by the officer: 1) trying to enforce a law he didn't know well enough to enforce. 2) physically restraining a citizen, apparently without any legal justification. 3) search and seizure (returned after consulting with another officer), apparently without any legal justification. 4) clearly stating an intent (in front of witnesses) to manufacture a cause to arrest a citizen. Number 1 is reason enough for additional training on TN laws, but not much else. Numbers 2 and 3 are crossing the line from simple misunderstanding and moving into the area of violation of civil rights (could possibly still be partially excused as a misunderstanding). Number 4 is the one that should end the officer's career. I'm not naive enough to suggest that such threats aren't made, but to make such a threat when the only perceived offense is a carry permit holder allowing their holstered gun to be exposed (and make that threat in front of witnesses), shows the officer has a strong sense that he is 'above the law' and can do as he pleases. |
|
Maybe that officer should have read this little memo....
www.attorneygeneral.state.tn.us/op/2005/OP/OP154.pdf ETA: Just saw the memo in his blog also. oh wells it's hot at least. |
|
That's the question that would probably run the highest risk of allowing my mouth to get me deeper in trouble. I don't know if I could resist the urge to ask if the officer's Glock was in a similar condition. |
|
|
I hope his girlfriend was taking down contact information from the crowd of bystanders witnessing his comments. A parade of witnesses about his threat to manufacture evidence would make for quite an entertaining day in the courtroom.
|
|
Once again, the defense lawyers will have fun with this.
EVERY single perp this scumbag ever had anything to do with just got a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. |
|
Knoxville News Sentinel article.
From bits of information in the various provided sources, it appears that the officer was reacting to: 1) a holstered handgun that was visible above the belt (doesn't that particular holster conceal everything below the belt?) 2) the hammer was back Anybody know of anybody that carries a 1911 with the hammer down? Does the Knoxville PD use Glocks (no manual safety, no decocker, ready to fire when a round is chambered)? |
|
Unfortunately my local fun shop owner's attitude is, "the guy (the one accosted) should have shown more common sense. If I see a someone carrying in the open, I don't know what his intention are . . . ."
WTF?? He quoted the liberal line without even trying. Might as well have said, "Everyone but me is too stupid and violent to carry." Personally, if I were that paranoid about other peoples potential violence, I would want to know who was armed and who wasn't. Not to mention the complete lack of logic in assuming that bad guys only carry in the open. Again I say, WTF? |
|
Does your fun shop owner open carry in his store? If so, ask him why and what his intensions are. Then go find another fun shop.
|
|
No shit. There are plenty of us gun dealers out there that you don't have to spend money with someone who doesn't trust his very customers with the items he sells them. In the immortal words of one of the greatest philosophers of all time, Bugs Bunny: "What a maroon!"
|
|
I believe that every police officer should have to be able to recite, word for word, every law that exists for the state that they work in. Then maybe they could enforce them correctly. They even taugh in the class, that I took, that open carry is allowed, and it was on the instructional video made by the state of Tennessee.
Bad cop... no donut for you. |
|
The person referenced in the OP was a fool to open carry his handgun, especially by going into a very public place like a Wal-Mart. While I agree that the TN HCP law does allow for open carry, any person who does so is only going to draw unwanted attention to themselves. From a tactics standpoint, open carry in civilian clothes is completely ridiculous. You are making yourself (and anyone with you) a target, pure and simple. Not just a target to bad guys intending harm, but to regular citizens and police officers who are simply reacting to a person openly displaying a weapon in a public place. The person in the OP even states the he "neglected" to un-tuck his shirt to cover the firearm. That is exactly what it was...neglect. And his failure to take that simple precaution caused the whole incident.
Some people respond that "the law says I can open carry, so I will." It is responses like that that gives responsible gun owners/carriers a bad name. Just because the law does not prevent open carry, does not mean open carry is good common sense, because it is not. Situations like what happened in the OP only create bad press for the HCP law, and could lead to its repeal, and don't think that could not happen. I am a permit holder and I always carry concealed. I would never, EVER, open carry. Personally, I feel that the TN HCP law should be amended to allow only concealed carry. Maybe someday it will be, and maybe it will save all of us responsible permit holders from the likes of the idiot in the OP. |
|
I know Trevor. He's no fool. As stated in the article, his weapon being visible wasn't intentional. He neglected to tuck his shirt over.
Neglect, of course, isn't illegal.
The issue with that is that if you ever exposed your weapon accidentally (say, reaching the grocery store top shelf), you break the law. It's that way for a specific reason. |
|
|
They originally were going to make it a concealed permit, but due to lawsuits decided that concealed only was a bad idea. The lawsuits in question are of the following types. While carrying, you accidently have a show occur. This makes it become unconcealed, thus you have broken the law and are arrested. Or the peron(s) around you, that saw such handgun, can now sue you. I do remember having breakfast at barrel ful o'white people, with the gang here and OEF_Vet had an show. Had the permit been for concealed only, he could have been arrested and or sued. OEF_Vet my son noticed it and mentioned it to me, and I also saw it, but since concealed is not mandatory, I did not mention it. |
|
|
Actually, neglect can be illegal if that neglect causes something bad to happen. But that is a whole other story. I am not saying that your friend did anything illegal, on the contrary, he was within the current law. All I am saying is that open carry is not good common sense. It will only lead to situations like what happened and create bad press for the HCP law, and then more and more private businesses will prohibit permit holders from carrying in their establishments. The simple act of covering the weapon could have saved a lot of heartache. Carrying on the HCP involves great responsibility. Anytime you are carrying, you have to be conscience of the fact that you are carrying a deadly weapon and you have the responsibility to act accordingly. I stand by my claim that the whole incident could have been avoided if your friend had acted with more common sense. Also, there is a BIG difference between accidentally showing your concealed weapon, and openly carrying with the intent to show your weapon to everybody. The current law could be easily amended to include accidental exposure of a concealed weapon. We can agree to disagree on the whether or not the law should require concealment, but as long as the TN law does not require it, we are going to have people who will open carry. That is only going to cause problems (see the OP). |
|
|
And one that is irrelevant in this context.
the only bad press I've seen was for the overzealous police officer. I (and trevor probably) concur that open carry is a bad idea.
Then he would have probably been arrested even though it was accidental. I have, to date, never seen anyone open carry. |
|||
|
I open carry from time-to-time, depending on the situation.
If I am teaching a carry permit class, I have a gun on my hip. When I walk down the parking lot to the BP / Subway, I don't bother to cover up my gun. No one has ever said anything to me, not an employee, customer, or Metro police officer. If I am on my way to the range, to test fire a gun, I don't bother to toss on a cover shirt. The times I've stopped at either of the stores in between, no one has said anything, not the owners, employees, the Franklin police officers, or the soccer moms who frequent the place. When I am working a gun show, I frequently have a gun on my hip (unloaded at the show, of course). There have been times before the show where I've met ARFCOMMERS at Cracker Barrel. Once in awhile, I even open carry. No one has ever said anything. Of course, the hour before a Smyrna gun show, about 1/2 the customers at the Cracker Barrel are gun show exhibitors or customers. I've even walked into the Region's Bank in downtown Franklin with a gun on my hip, and a spare mag on the other hip, both carried openly. No one said anything. Now, in all of those situations, I'm in environments where folks tend to be familiar to me and with me. Many of them know I own a gun business and/or teach firearms safety. I would think that they'd assume I should be carrying a gun. Of course, I am also a realist enough to know that appearances mean a lot. Eight years in the Army doesn't go away in the blink of an eye. Due to the way I carry myself, and the way I wear my hair, to many people, I still look like a soldier. I am also a realist enough to know that many people see me and think I'm a cop. Even if they don't see me in possession of a gun. Hell, I got asked by a woman in Wal-Mart if I was a cop. I was wearing jeans and a T-shirt at the time. She saw the monkey-fist I use as a keychain, and asked if I were a cop. I don't impersonate a cop, or tell people that I am one. When asked if I am, I always say no, I'm not. However, many people mistake my military bearing for the demeanor of a police officer. Personally, I don't think that's a bad thing. I wish more cops carried themselves with the same professional demeanor I try to exude. The point is, when people see me with a gun, I'm doubtful they are going to flip out. I've been told by a lot of people that I look like I should be carrying a gun. Do I openly carry into stop 'n robs in Madison or Antioch? No. Do I openly carry into Wal-Mart? No. But, I do open carry. There's nothing illegal about it, nor should there be. But, there are times when it doesn't make sense at all. However, there are other times and places where it's not completely out of place. It just requires common sense and sound decision making. |
|
The officer was correct in questioning someone who is walking around carrying a gun, but I agree that the officer was wrong in about everything else he did, and I am glad the Knoxville Police Chief had the good sense to apologize for what happened. The officer did what he did because he was ignorant of that particular law, as are probably other officers and many regular citizens. All the more reason to carry concealed.
That is not what I meant. The law could be changed to require concealment, but include a provision that an accidental exposure is not a violation.
I have seem it....twice. I did not like it, and neither did some other people. On one of those occasions, the owner of the store asked the guy to leave. Oddly enough, I was carrying at the same time. Nothing happened to me because I was carrying concealed, and the shop owner (and everyone else) had no idea I was armed. |
||
|
If a store owner looks at me and decides I don't look like a responsible adult, that's his or her privilege. It's also my privilege to tell them which of their competitors with which I will be doing business.
Of course, I'm going to tell every one of my carry permit students that the owner of that business doen't like people who exercise their legal rights. Just like I tell them about Jerrod's - The Galleria of Jewelry, who have their doors posted that there will be no firearms brought into the store (except by criminals - oh, wait, robbers will be stopped by a sign, because they can't bring their gun inside). |
|
Define accidental exposure. Be sure to word the definition in a manner that can be used in a court of law to determine if any possible incident can be classified accidental or not. Many years ago, I was involved in a discussion about knives, and the problem of being arrested for having a concealed weapon in a particular state (can't remember which one), came up. Seems that carrying a knife over a certain blade length was legal, but only if it was visible on the belt, and some officers did not think it should be legal at all. Those officers would follow anyone who had a belt knife, and arrest them for having a concealed weapon, as soon as they saw a shirttail cover any part of the knife. Can you honestly say that the Knoxville police officer, from the first post of this thread, would not use any accidental exposure of a carry gun as an excuse to arrest someone? |
|
|
I carry unconcealed from time to time. My brother is a LEO and has been since 1989 and he did not know that the HCP allowed for open carry. I hate this happened to the guy but i think now alot of LEOs will know that open carry is allowed. With that said maybe they will be a little bit more civilized in the way they appoach a person legaly carry a handgun. Ive had my HCP for 3 years and have never been asked to show it, sort of like OEF_Vet i look like a cop, monkey fists and all.
If they changed it to concealed only i can imagine all the grief brought by that. Probably about everyone here is guilty then because if you can see a outline of it or just a flash then you are no longer carry concealed. Store owners not allowing firearms will not have my business or my money period. |
|
I completely disagree. I could go on at length as to why, but basically I believe your position is indicative of society's irrational fear of guns and should be countered at every opportunity. The more people see law-abiding citizens carrying with no ill effect what so ever the more likely they are to be cured of their emotion-based bias against firearms in general. I would lobby against changing the statute if such a notion every occurred in Nashville. |
|
|
Just out of curiosity, are you from Tennessee originally or did you migrate from elsewhere?
Your post reads like that of a liberal-state emigrant who brought his politics with him...in fact it looks like the sewage I read in the papers here in my temporary home in New Jersey. If you're a native Tennessean, then my apologies and I'll just point out the utter wrongness of giving up the right to carry openly. Either way, if you honestly believe that police ignorance of the law is "all the more reason to carry concealed" then you are fundamentally off track.
|
|||
|
Monkey-fists? Didn't your mother tell you if you did "that" you would grow hair on your hands? |
|
|
The Monkey fist are big with LEOs in most of the state due to there ease of retrieving their keys from their stong side while wearing a holster. I guess it is like the Thin Blue line but most of them over look it now due to everyone and their brother having one.
|
|
Not only do monkeyfists make it easy to retrieve your keys, they also make for an impromptu impact weapon. Not as effective as other weapons, but very mundane looking and easy to carry in places where you can't bring another, more useful weapon.
|
|
That they do need to get some bearing to make them heavier. did you get yours from robocop? need to shoot him a email to see if he need some more lol.
|
|
Firstly......Correct me if I'm wrong.....but I was under the understanding that "brandishing" is not illegal in Tennessee under the handgun carry permit, as its not possible to "brandish" a weapon that is legal to be carried concealed OR openly.
Secondly....regardless of whether you believe that someone with "common sense" would not carry openly, the voluntary removal of our freedoms can lead down a path to have other freedoms removed as well very quickly. In regards to peoples common sense, while I may not like someone, their view points, or think they have any sense, I don't believe I have the right to take someone elses rights away based on that alone.....if those actions lead to them commit a crime.....then throw away the key....but until then....I'll just believe them an idiot. Besides, if they truely are such an idiot as to be a threat, I'd rather be able to see my enemy coming. |
|
Ahh, so you're Shawn's source, huh? Good to "meet" ya. I didn't get mine from him. I got mine from dizkoboro, who is a stockholder in Elite Tactical Systems. The one I've got has a nice little ball-bearing in it, which makes a nice thud when hit against something. hehe |
|
|
+Eleventy Billion!! ....from my last reading of the 2nd ammend. of the constitution--I still didn't encounter the word, "concealed". |
||
|
If a person has a carry permit, I think he or she should be allowed,
by law, to carry their firearm in any safe manner they see fit, as long as they are not carrying anywhere prohibited by law, concealed or openly. I do however think the safety class to get a TN HCP should be a little more in depth, as I have seen several unsafe individuals who were HCP holders. Regards, Scott |
|
I carry openly around the house, once I went to food lion to get some meat to grill and by the time I came out Rutherford County's finest were waiting on me. I walked by like he was in any other vehicle in the parking lot and he watched me load up and leave.
During the winter I carry an XD in a OWB holster because my jacket covers it up. If you happen to see it and feel the need to call the police then thats your problem. |
|
Unfortunately, the same can be said for TN driver's licenses. www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/ Year:2004 (last year data is provided) Intent:unintentional Cause:firearm Number of fatal injuries in the US:649 Year:2004 Intent:unintentional Cause:firearm Number of nonfatal injuries in the US:16,555 Year:2004 Intent:unintentional Cause:motor vehicle Number of fatal injuries in the US:44,933 Year:2004 Intent:unintentional Cause:motor vehicle Number of nonfatal injuries in the US:3,000,866 |
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.