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Posted: 9/20/2007 9:01:32 AM EDT
http://www.coltcco.com/?p=187



I had been shopping for groceries at the Walker Springs Wal-Mart with my girlfriend, Samantha Williams. I was dressed neatly enough in clean blue Levis and a grey T-shirt, tucked in. My carry firearm, a Colt Concealed Carry Officers Model, was holstered and safed on my right hip in a Brommeland IWB holster. As it was warm that night, I left my jacket in the car, and neglected to un-tuck my shirt over the firearm. We proceeded to shop for groceries for the next 20 minutes. At no time did anyone I encountered in the store raise alarm or cause panic over the sight of my carry firearm. After paying for our groceries, we exited the store and passed Officer Greene in the foyer, who was engaged in conversation with a Wal-Mart Employee. He was located against the wall, to my right. My hands were both on the cart at the time I passed him, my girlfriend was holding my left arm. After I had passed him, I heard Officer Greene exclaim “hey!” and I half-turned to respond to him. He came towards me quickly, and said “You got any ID on you, buddy?” I responded “Yes, I have my carry permit” thinking that he likely wanted to make sure I was licensed to carry a firearm. Both my hands were still on the cart at this time.

He then said “Let me see”, and I then reached for my front pants pocket, when I keep my wallet. At this time, Officer Greene took my wrist in his hand, twisted it back and away, and placed his other hand in my back, forcing me forward into the concrete wall just outside the outer door of the store. This movement caused me to lose my grip on my full cart of groceries, and it began to roll out into the parking lot. As the officer was pushing me forward, I held out my left hand to keep from hitting the wall with full force. When I moved my left hand to protect my face and chest from hitting the wall, Officer Greene shouted “Put ‘em up, keep those hands up there” and pulled my other hand over my head as he pushed my body into the wall. He then kicked and pushed at my ankles with his boots to cause me to stand spread-eagle against the wall. I attempted to inform him that I did have a TN Handgun Carry Permit, and that my mode of carry was legal, to which he yelled “It’s a concealed carry permit, don’t you know what concealed means?” I responded, still calmly, that in TN, “The state code doesn’t specify concealed carry; it’s simply a handgun carry permit.” This statement seemed to make Officer Greene even angrier, and he shouted “Do you think you know more about the law than me? I’ve been a police officer here for 7 years!” I replied “In this case, since we teach the Handgun Carry Permit Course where I work, I’m sure I know this law.” Officer Greene yelled again “I don’t care what you teach, you can’t go around carrying a gun where people can see it. Where do you work?” I informed him that I worked at Coal Creek Armory.

Officer Greene took my wallet, my car keys, both of my pocketknives, and kept his hand on my carry firearm as he called in my driver license to dispatch. In between speaking into his radio, he continued to berate me for carrying my firearm, and emphasized several time that I was incorrect about open carry. I attempted to inform him otherwise, still polite and calm, as I knew I had violated no law. Officer Greene informed me that “My probably cause is that you’re carrying a gun out here, inciting a panic, and that’s all it takes for you to sleep in jail tonight.” I stated, again, that my carry permit was valid, and TN State law permitted handgun carry open or concealed, and that I usually carry concealed. He said that my permit had “better say just that, handgun carry,” but even if it did, he’d just “find some other reason to take me in, disorderly conduct, or inciting a panic. I’ll make some reason.” I was shocked to hear him openly state that he would manufacture probable cause to falsely arrest me, in the hearing of my girlfriend, standing no less than 5 feet away, the Wal-Mart employee he had been speaking with, and the small crowd of bystanders watching.

Officer Greene attempted to draw my firearm to remove it from my holster, but I informed him there were belt snaps on it, and he could just undo them. He did so, and removed firearm and holster from my belt, and then asked me “Is this loaded, one in the chamber? Do you think you can just walk around like that with a loaded gun out in the open?” I confirmed that my defensive firearm was, in fact, loaded and chambered, with the safety on. He asked me “Now, am I gonna find anything else on you? You got anything else I need to know about?” I looked down and saw that he had not removed my Surefire flashlight from my front left pocket, and could feel the tiny CRKT pocketknife in my 5.11 boots pocket. He has missed them while frisking me, and I informed him of their location. He removed them , and then berated me for carrying more than one knife, asking me “what’s your problem, why are you carrying so many knives?” I told him that customers often prefer to buy the knife a salesperson uses, and so I carried one for opening boxes, and two “just in case” to show customers. He registered strong disbelief.

He continued “When I carry off duty, how do you think I carry my gun? It’s concealed, has to be concealed by law. You think the law’s any different for you and me? I’ve been a police officer here in Knoxville for seven years, and I’ve never seen anyone with a permit open carrying.”

I informed him that concealed carry off duty was a KPD regulation(I know a bit about KPD carry regulations, having dated the sister of a KPD officer for 2 years, and have a few more as customers and personal friends), but that a TN Handgun Carry Permit allowed for open or concealed carry. I stated that I had just left work, picked up my girlfriend, and went straight to Wal-Mart, and was carrying just as I had all day at work.

Officer Greene then told me to have a seat, stood in front of me on the bench, and continued to berate me for carrying a firearm. He handed me my wallet, told me to get my permit out from under my driver license. I did so, and handed it to him. He looked at it, and I stated “Handgun carry permit, doesn’t specify concealed.” He stated that that was “no excuse” for walking around with a gun out in the open, and said that I was lucky he was so gentle, because some of his fellow officers would have had me “proned-out on the ground” as soon as I walked past them with a firearm on my hip. “Is that how you think I should deal with you?” I said “However you think it should be handled” and remained quiet, as I did not wish to enter into an argument. I asked him to hand my girlfriend the keys to my car, so that she could put away our groceries, which he did.

At this point his backup arrived in a cruiser, and he told me to stay put, and asked the Red-shirted Loss Prevention Wal-Mart employee to watch me, and then went to speak to the other officer. I looked over at my girlfriend who was understandably upset, and tried to console her. When the officer returned with his partner, he handed me back my work keys, knives and light, and told me to “put them away” and then handed me back my holstered firearm, and said “take it, and conceal it. Do it.” I retrieved my items, put them away, and asked if I was free to leave. He nodded, and I retrieved my girlfriend, and walked to my car.


Wow, i was at coal creek armory (where that guy works) Tuesday.  Next time, I'm going to ask him about it.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 9:39:48 AM EDT
[#1]
My sources tell me to watch the knoxville paper tomorrow.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 10:18:16 AM EDT
[#2]
SUE. HIS. ASS. OFF.

Sue the department, too.  Make condition one of the settlement (they WILL try to settle) the immediate firing of the asswipe cop, with NO pension.  Get the security tape from Wal-Mart.

It is a shame, but today, you just have to sue the bastards.


Link Posted: 9/20/2007 11:56:22 AM EDT
[#3]
I hope he sues the everliving shit out of them. Ever since I went to the UT v MTSU football game there several years ago I have despised the jerk-offs they call cops in that city. TN law does not require concealment.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 3:35:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 4:52:35 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
i would tend to agree with the 'sue' statements. file an official complaint against him at the PD, and call a press conference on it.

take them to task, and call them on it.

they may enforce the law, but they are not the law.


GET THAT SECURITY TAPE!  
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 5:36:17 PM EDT
[#6]
WTF!
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 8:20:13 PM EDT
[#7]
From the blog entry (address at the top of the first post in this thread), it appears the department's response is to issue a letter of reprimand to the officer, require the officer to attend additional training in TN carry permit law and in dealing with the public, include training in TN carry permit law with the next in service training for all knoxville pd officers, and an apology from the chief of police.

Offenses (assuming the events occured as written) by the officer:
1) trying to enforce a law he didn't know well enough to enforce.
2) physically restraining a citizen, apparently without any legal justification.
3) search and seizure (returned after consulting with another officer), apparently without any legal justification.
4) clearly stating an intent (in front of witnesses) to manufacture a cause to arrest a citizen.


Number 1 is reason enough for additional training on TN laws, but not much else.

Numbers 2 and 3 are crossing the line from simple misunderstanding and moving into the area of violation of civil rights (could possibly still be partially excused as a misunderstanding).  

Number 4 is the one that should end the officer's career.  I'm not naive enough to suggest that such threats aren't made, but to make such a threat when the only perceived offense is a carry permit holder allowing their holstered gun to be exposed (and make that threat in front of witnesses), shows the officer has a strong sense that he is 'above the law' and can do as he pleases.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 8:55:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Maybe that officer should have read this little memo....

www.attorneygeneral.state.tn.us/op/2005/OP/OP154.pdf

ETA: Just saw the memo in his blog also. oh wells it's hot at least.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 3:07:58 AM EDT
[#9]


and then asked me “Is this loaded, one in the chamber? "


That's the question that would probably run the highest risk of allowing my mouth to get me deeper in trouble.  I don't know if I could resist the urge to ask if the officer's Glock was in a similar condition.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 7:26:09 AM EDT
[#10]
I hope his girlfriend was taking down contact information from the crowd of bystanders witnessing his comments.  A parade of witnesses about his threat to manufacture evidence would make for quite an entertaining day in the courtroom.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 12:30:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Once again, the defense lawyers will have fun with this.

EVERY single perp this scumbag ever had anything to do with just got a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.

Link Posted: 9/22/2007 1:13:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Knoxville News Sentinel article.


From bits of information in the various provided sources, it appears that the officer was reacting to:

1) a holstered handgun that was visible above the belt (doesn't that particular holster conceal everything below the belt?)

2) the hammer was back


Anybody know of anybody that carries a 1911 with the hammer down?  Does the Knoxville PD use Glocks (no manual safety, no decocker, ready to fire when a round is chambered)?
Link Posted: 9/25/2007 6:45:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Unfortunately my local fun shop owner's attitude is, "the guy (the one accosted) should have shown more common sense.  If I see a someone carrying in the open, I don't know what his intention are . . . ."

WTF??  He quoted the liberal line without even trying.  Might as well have said,  "Everyone but me is too stupid and violent to carry."  Personally, if I were that paranoid about other peoples potential violence, I would want to know who was armed and who wasn't.  Not to mention the complete lack of logic in assuming that bad guys only carry in the open.

Again I say, WTF?  
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 5:27:29 AM EDT
[#14]
Find a new fun shop.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 6:05:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Does your fun shop owner open carry in his store?  If so, ask him why and what his intensions are.  Then go find another fun shop.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 6:07:10 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 6:30:27 AM EDT
[#17]
I believe that every police officer should have to be able to recite, word for word, every law that exists for the state that they work in. Then maybe they could enforce them correctly. They even taugh in the class, that I took, that open carry is allowed, and it  was on the instructional video made by the state of Tennessee.


Bad cop...
       no donut for you.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 12:09:26 PM EDT
[#18]
The person referenced in the OP was a fool to open carry his handgun, especially by going into a very public place like a Wal-Mart.  While I agree that the TN HCP law does allow for open carry, any person who does so is only going to draw unwanted attention to themselves.  From a tactics standpoint, open carry in civilian clothes is completely ridiculous.  You are making yourself (and anyone with you) a target, pure and simple.  Not just a target to bad guys intending harm, but to regular citizens and police officers who are simply reacting to a person openly displaying a weapon in a public place.  The person in the OP even states the he "neglected" to un-tuck his shirt to cover the firearm.  That is exactly what it was...neglect.  And his failure to take that simple precaution caused the whole incident.  

Some people respond that "the law says I can open carry, so I will."  It is responses like that that gives responsible gun owners/carriers a bad name.  Just because the law does not prevent open carry, does not mean open carry is good common sense, because it is not.  Situations like what happened in the OP only create bad press for the HCP law, and could lead to its repeal, and don't think that could not happen.

I am a permit holder and I always carry concealed.  I would never, EVER, open carry.  Personally, I feel that the TN HCP law should be amended to allow only concealed carry.  Maybe someday it will be, and maybe it will save all of us responsible permit holders from the likes of the idiot in the OP.

Link Posted: 9/26/2007 12:24:21 PM EDT
[#19]
I know Trevor. He's no fool.  As stated in the article, his weapon being visible wasn't intentional. He neglected to tuck his shirt over.

Neglect, of course, isn't illegal.  


Personally, I feel that the TN HCP law should be amended to allow only concealed carry.


The issue with that is that if you ever exposed your weapon accidentally (say, reaching the grocery store top shelf), you break the law. It's that way for a specific reason.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 12:27:30 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
I feel that the TN HCP law should be amended to allow only concealed carry.  Maybe someday it will be, and maybe it will save all of us responsible permit holders from the likes of the idiot in the OP.



They originally were going to make it a concealed permit, but due to lawsuits decided that concealed only was a bad idea.
The lawsuits in question are of the following types. While carrying, you accidently have a show occur. This makes it become unconcealed, thus you have broken the law and are arrested. Or the peron(s) around you, that saw such handgun, can now sue you.

I do remember having breakfast at barrel ful o'white people, with the gang here and OEF_Vet had an show. Had the permit been for concealed only, he could have been arrested and or sued. OEF_Vet my son noticed it and mentioned it to me, and I also saw it, but since concealed is not mandatory, I did not mention it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 1:14:27 PM EDT
[#21]
height=8
Quoted:
Neglect, of course, isn't illegal.


Actually, neglect can be illegal if that neglect causes something bad to happen.  But that is a whole other story.

I am not saying that your friend did anything illegal, on the contrary, he was within the current law.  All I am saying is that open carry is not good common sense.  It will only lead to situations like what happened and create bad press for the HCP law, and then more and more private businesses will prohibit permit holders from carrying in their establishments.  The simple act of covering the weapon could have saved a lot of heartache.  Carrying on the HCP involves great responsibility.  Anytime you are carrying, you have to be conscience of the fact that you are carrying a deadly weapon and you have the responsibility to act accordingly.  I stand by my claim that the whole incident could have been avoided if your friend had acted with more common sense.

Also, there is a BIG difference between accidentally showing your concealed weapon, and openly carrying with the intent to show your weapon to everybody.  The current law could be easily amended to include accidental exposure of a concealed weapon.  We can agree to disagree on the whether or not the law should require concealment, but as long as the TN law does not require it, we are going to have people who will open carry.  That is only going to cause problems (see the OP).
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 1:22:03 PM EDT
[#22]

But that is a whole other story.


And one that is irrelevant in this context.


All I am saying is that open carry is not good common sense. It will only lead to situations like what happened and create bad press for the HCP law, and then more and more private businesses will prohibit permit holders from carrying in their establishments.


the only bad press I've seen was for the overzealous police officer. I (and trevor probably) concur that open carry is a bad idea.  


The current law could be easily amended to include accidental exposure of a concealed weapon.


Then he would have probably been arrested even though it was accidental.

I have, to date, never seen anyone open carry.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 3:33:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 3:48:46 PM EDT
[#24]
The officer was correct in questioning someone who is walking around carrying a gun, but I agree that the officer was wrong in about everything else he did, and I am glad the Knoxville Police Chief had the good sense to apologize for what happened.  The officer did what he did because he was ignorant of that particular law, as are probably other officers and many regular citizens.  All the more reason to carry concealed.

height=8
Then he would have probably been arrested even though it was accidental.

That is not what I meant.  The law could be changed to require concealment, but include a provision that an accidental exposure is not a violation.

height=8
I have, to date, never seen anyone open carry.

I have seem it....twice.  I did not like it, and neither did some other people.  On one of those occasions, the owner of the store asked the guy to leave.  Oddly enough, I was carrying at the same time.  Nothing happened to me because I was carrying concealed, and the shop owner (and everyone else) had no idea I was armed.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 3:57:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 4:27:38 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

 The law could be changed to require concealment, but include a provision that an accidental exposure is not a violation.




Define accidental exposure.  Be sure to word the definition in a manner that can be used in a court of law to determine if any possible incident can be classified accidental or not.

Many years ago, I was involved in a discussion about knives, and the problem of being arrested for having a concealed weapon in a particular state (can't remember which one), came up.  Seems that carrying a knife over a certain blade length was legal, but only if it was visible on the belt, and some officers did not think it should be legal at all.  Those officers would follow anyone who had a belt knife, and arrest them for having a concealed weapon, as soon as they saw a shirttail cover any part of the knife.

Can you honestly say that the Knoxville police officer, from the first post of this thread, would not use any accidental exposure of a carry gun as an excuse to arrest someone?
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 4:59:47 PM EDT
[#27]
I carry unconcealed from time to time. My brother is a LEO and has been since 1989 and he did not know that the HCP allowed for open carry. I hate this happened to the guy but i think now alot of LEOs will know that open carry is allowed. With that said maybe they will be a little bit more civilized in the way they appoach a person legaly carry a handgun. Ive had my HCP for 3 years and have never been asked to show it, sort of like OEF_Vet i look like a cop, monkey fists and all.

If they changed it to concealed only i can imagine all the grief brought by that. Probably about everyone here is guilty then because if you can see a outline of it or just a flash then you are no longer carry concealed.

Store owners not allowing firearms will not have my business or my money period.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 12:20:54 AM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
I feel that the TN HCP law should be amended to allow only concealed carry.  Maybe someday it will be, and maybe it will save all of us responsible permit holders from the likes of the idiot in the OP.



I completely disagree. I could go on at length as to why, but basically I believe your position is indicative of society's irrational fear of guns and should be countered at every opportunity. The more people see law-abiding citizens carrying with no ill effect what so ever the more likely they are to be cured of their emotion-based bias against firearms in general. I would lobby against changing the statute if such a notion every occurred in Nashville.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 3:29:27 AM EDT
[#29]
Just out of curiosity, are you from Tennessee originally or did you migrate from elsewhere?

Your post reads like that of a liberal-state emigrant who brought his politics with him...in fact it looks like the sewage I read in the papers here in my temporary home in New Jersey.

If you're a native Tennessean, then my apologies and I'll just point out the utter wrongness of giving up the right to carry openly.  Either way, if you honestly believe that police ignorance of the law is "all the more reason to carry concealed" then you are fundamentally off track.



Quoted:
The officer was correct in questioning someone who is walking around carrying a gun, but I agree that the officer was wrong in about everything else he did, and I am glad the Knoxville Police Chief had the good sense to apologize for what happened.  The officer did what he did because he was ignorant of that particular law, as are probably other officers and many regular citizens.  All the more reason to carry concealed.


Then he would have probably been arrested even though it was accidental.

That is not what I meant.  The law could be changed to require concealment, but include a provision that an accidental exposure is not a violation.


I have, to date, never seen anyone open carry.

I have seem it....twice.  I did not like it, and neither did some other people.  On one of those occasions, the owner of the store asked the guy to leave.  Oddly enough, I was carrying at the same time.  Nothing happened to me because I was carrying concealed, and the shop owner (and everyone else) had no idea I was armed.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 7:19:11 AM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
I am also a realist enough to know that many people see me and think I'm a cop.  Even if they don't see me in possession of a gun.  Hell, I got asked by a woman in Wal-Mart if I was a cop.  I was wearing jeans and a T-shirt at the time.  She saw the monkey-fist I use as a keychain, and asked if I were a cop.


Monkey-fists? Didn't your mother tell you if you did "that" you would grow hair on your hands?
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 9:27:53 AM EDT
[#31]
The Monkey fist are big with LEOs in most of the state due to there ease of retrieving their keys from their stong side while wearing a holster. I guess it is like the Thin Blue line but most of them over look it now due to everyone and their brother having one.

Link Posted: 9/27/2007 10:15:38 AM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 2:53:34 PM EDT
[#33]
That they do need to get some bearing to make them heavier. did you get yours from robocop? need to shoot him a email to see if he need some more lol.
Link Posted: 9/27/2007 7:33:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Firstly......Correct me if I'm wrong.....but I was under the understanding that "brandishing" is not illegal in Tennessee under the handgun carry permit, as its not possible to "brandish" a weapon that is legal to be carried concealed OR openly.  

Secondly....regardless of whether you believe that someone with "common sense" would not carry openly, the voluntary removal of our freedoms can lead down a path to have other freedoms removed as well very quickly.  In regards to peoples common sense, while I may not like someone, their view points, or think they have any sense, I don't believe I have the right to take someone elses rights away based on that alone.....if those actions lead to them commit a crime.....then throw away the key....but until then....I'll just believe them an idiot.   Besides, if they truely are such an idiot as to be a threat, I'd rather be able to see my enemy coming.
Link Posted: 9/28/2007 12:16:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 9/29/2007 6:58:06 PM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I feel that the TN HCP law should be amended to allow only concealed carry.  Maybe someday it will be, and maybe it will save all of us responsible permit holders from the likes of the idiot in the OP.



I completely disagree. I could go on at length as to why, but basically I believe your position is indicative of society's irrational fear of guns and should be countered at every opportunity. The more people see law-abiding citizens carrying with no ill effect what so ever the more likely they are to be cured of their emotion-based bias against firearms in general. I would lobby against changing the statute if such a notion every occurred in Nashville.


+Eleventy Billion!!

....from my last reading of the 2nd ammend. of the constitution--I still didn't encounter the word, "concealed".

Link Posted: 9/30/2007 11:59:34 AM EDT
[#37]
If a person has a carry permit, I think he or she should be allowed,
by law, to carry their firearm in any safe manner they see fit, as long as they
are not carrying anywhere prohibited by law, concealed or openly.

I do however think the safety class to get a TN HCP should be a little more
in depth, as I have seen several unsafe individuals who were HCP holders.


Regards,

Scott

Link Posted: 9/30/2007 12:31:49 PM EDT
[#38]
I carry openly around the house, once I went to food lion to get some meat to grill and by the time I came out Rutherford County's finest were waiting on me. I walked by like he was in any other vehicle in the parking lot and he watched me load up and leave.

During the winter I carry an XD in a OWB holster because my jacket covers it up. If you happen to see it and feel the need to call the police then thats your problem.
Link Posted: 9/30/2007 3:09:15 PM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:

I do however think the safety class to get a TN HCP should be a little more
in depth, as I have seen several unsafe individuals who were HCP holders.



Unfortunately, the same can be said for TN driver's licenses.



www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/

Year:2004 (last year data is provided)
Intent:unintentional
Cause:firearm
Number of fatal injuries in the US:649

Year:2004
Intent:unintentional
Cause:firearm
Number of nonfatal injuries in the US:16,555


Year:2004
Intent:unintentional
Cause:motor vehicle
Number of fatal injuries in the US:44,933

Year:2004
Intent:unintentional
Cause:motor vehicle
Number of nonfatal injuries in the US:3,000,866
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