So myself and Lex got up Waaaaaaay too early this morning, and headed out to the appleseed shoot in Ramsuer NC.  

The class started with a "DO NOT BRING OUT YOUR RIFLE" order.

We all kinda mingled a bit until the course got underway.

First off we were given an outstanding verbal account of how the revolutionary war began.  It was longish, but I thought it was very interesting.  

Next up, safety briefing, chamber flags were passed out.  Rifles were put on the line, and chamber flags inserted.

First firing was on a "redcoat" target.  I qualified out to the 100yd range according to the target.

Next, we had some minor instruction, and were supposed to improve our shooting.  We would fire a few rounds at the targets, clear rifles, go down range and check the targets, and then have a brief instructional period.  The cycle was repeated continuously throughout the day.

My frustration began when I didn't have the right sling.  They said to bring a GI sling, which is what I thought I had.... but my mess was all wrong and I couldn't shoot properly with it.  I had great difficulty firing prone, which is what we started out doing.  
I didn't feel I was being helped enough initially, and what little help I recieved I had trouble putting in to use, having the wrong sling and all....

Lunch time allowed me to aquire not one, but FOUR of the required slings....  A single twenty dollar bill fixed that problem, and got me enough for several rifles.

Finally I am slinged up but still screwing up.  I'm a little better, but I would have a good shoot, then a bad one, then a decent one, then I would blow it and screw up big time.  I STILL couldn't use the sling properly, and STILL wasn't getting enough help.

At this point one of the R/Os found an instructor who could help me, and they spent more time with me and corrected my biggest problem shooting prone.  I mostly got the sling sorted by the end of the day.

Being left handed has never been anything but a handicap to me as a shooter.  I can't buy holsters readily, and most instructors cannot help me very well because I have to do everything backwards.  Mag changes today proved somewhat challenging, trying to have my left hand release the mag and change it, while my right hand remained locked in to my known good position.

As the day wore on, I started really getting the natural point of aim going, my trigger pull was much improved, my breathing was useful for slight elevation adjustment, and I got my prone position correct.  I did pretty well with "shooter's cadence", firing fairly rapidly and hitting the target.

I qualified as high as 196 on my AQT target, and the redcoat target had me hitting effectively out to 300 yards at the end of the day.  My glasses started to fog up on that last one....

Surprisingly, my "perfect" A2, my Go-To when I NEED to hit something, my dead-on, hit what I aim at gun, had to have a sight adjustment!  Front post was too high.  I rezeroed it and was able to hit consistently.  The instructor said that because I am shooting differently, I have a different zero.  

I had ONE mag malfunction out of a 20 rd NHMTG mag.  Unfortunately it was the first string of the day.  It was a double feed.  I disassembled it and threw it in the range bag.  Its getting SHOT next time I go to the range.  Its not worth trying to get a $13 mag warrantied.  I am just going to trash it and move on.  The other mags I used throughout the day worked well, as did my trusty A2.

Lex made fun of me for eating an MRE for lunch.  Yet for some reason, I had more food than anybody, it tasted good, and it was a hot lunch while everyone else ate their sammich or cold whatevers.  And I had a chocolate chip brownie in it.  Yay.

Overall, I would say its an excellent course for a right handed shooter, and you will learn a lot of fundamentals.  I get to go back tomorrow and do some more....  I want to qualify expert, and I don't feel I am that far off from it.  The staff was friendly, safety was a priority and handled very professionally, and I leared a lot.  Most importantly I learned how bad I really was at shooting.  I thought I had gotten somewhat proficient, and had developed my own style and bad habits. I was simply used to shooting MY way, and now that I know the proper way I can get better.

The boy c(Saturnstyl) can shoot!!!  He's being humble!!!!

I liked the course, learned alot, frustrated some by the speed of the course, and had plenty of fun.

I recommend the course for most folks (newbies and experienced alike).

My 40 yr old low-back is too fooked to return for Sunday but still feel like I got my $$ worth.

Practice is in my future!!!!


Lex

Quoted: Being left handed has never been anything but a handicap to me as a shooter.  I can't buy holsters readily, and most instructors cannot help me very well because I have to do everything backwards.

You know what, that's bogus.  That's a failing of the instructors, not of your talent.  You should be able to shoot fine prone without a sling.  If you feel like you were being ignored by the instructors so they could concentrate on someone that was shooting better or whatever, you should be justified in asking for a refund.  And if they have any ethics at all, they won't refuse.

At the risk of being accused of kiss-assery, I'd like to point out that 66% of the instructors of Defensive Concepts NC are lefties, and they're a host range away from holding a rifle class.  A PRACTICAL rifle class, not some fossilized, stationary CMP bullseye punching.

We were discussing the interest in taking a handgun class in the near future.  It's fun when you have a shooting buddy with the same interest in improving.



Keep us posted on upcoming classes.


Lex

OH GAWD IT HURTS!!!!!!!!!!!  IT HURTS SOOOOOOOOO BAAAAAAAD!!!!!

Now that I have that out of the way, the morning after is HELL.  

Luckily the class doesn't start until 11 today, otherwise it would have been an impossibility.  Repacking my ammo can, cleaning my AR, and all the other miscellaneous, with driving home included, kept me up until 11, and I was DEAD tired by the time I made it home.  Now I am just trying to loosen up a bit before I hit the road.

Wait til your dear old back hits the 40 year mark!!

I'm a hurtin' pup today.  I tried the prone position this A.m. with much arguement from my back.

Good luck today, shoot well and score Expert!


Enjoyed it, bro.


Lex

Today I drank a big glass of FAIL.

I've thought a while about what to say and how to say it.  Having an hour and a half to think things over still didn't put things totally in perspective for me.  I want to say what I have to say without sounding overly negative, but its going to be very hard for me right now.

At the beginning of class yesterday, I was able to score 100 yard hits.  At the end of class yesterday I was able to hit at 300 yards.  Of course these were simulated targets set up at 25 yards.  Thats a fine improvement for ONE day of instruction.  

This morning, on the same drill, I hit only out to 100 yards.  Its the first round of shooting, and I'm a bit sore, but still happy to be at 100 yards.

The day progresses.  We do more AQT drills.  I am trying pretty hard to remember all the things I am supposed to be doing, and doing them.  My shooting started bad, got better, then everything fell apart.  If I was grouping well, my point of aim was off, If my aim was sorta good, my groups were large.

Eventually toward the end of the day, I was told to adjust my elevation and windage.  After my rifle had performed consistently, I was told to adjust the sights.... I did, because I was dumb enough to believe it would help.  

My point of aim improved while standing or sitting, and while prone I couldn't even hit the target.  

Two guys kept telling me something different every single time....  Do this, do that, do something else.  I can't keep track anymore.  Yet, during dry fire practice, I am IGNORED.  Nobody provides feedback unless they see my target.  By then, its TOO LATE, because we have moved to doing something else for the next string.  

To put it mildly, I was getting VERY frustrated, and angry.  My trusted rifle, the one I painstakingly zeroed beforehand, is now worthless to me, because I can't trust it.  The sights are not putting the bullet where I aim anymore.

Nobody was able to accurately identify my problem(s), or at least help me on a consistent basis.  At 5:00 I packed my stuff and just left.  Its pointless to try anything else, or waste any more ammo with a rifle I don't trust to be zeroed.  I can't shoot five rounds, wait 10 minutes and shoot five more and expect to see improvement.  That pace does not work for me.  I need to fire, see results, and fix it.
The whole sling thing isn't working out so well either.  I can see it being beneficial to some people, and under some circumstances, yet if someone is 25 yards away.... lets just say I won't be getting caught up in a sling.

I admire Fred's dream, and his drive.  I admire everyone that volunteered to make the event a reality, and those that are helping to spread the program.  Remembering the founding fathers is very important, and it was a great history lesson.  The history helped to put meaning behind the course.

On the other hand I spent a great deal of money preparing, on ammo, supplies, preparing prior to the event, etc...  Yet at the end of today, I was unable to even hit the 100 yard simulated target.  My rifle is messed up, and it will cost me $50 to get it back to the way it was.  (range fee, ammo)  I have a sling that I bought, because its the only way the course is taught... yet it seems the sling will be useless to me for the type of shooting I do.

Overall I found the course physically painful, and lacking in follow up to the instruction.  I don't believe it would "lure" in new shooters the way a traditional range session would.  Frustration with the sling, inconsistent support from the instructors, and generally uncomfortable shooting positions may serve to do more harm than good.  There were a number of bleeding elbows and such.  Some of the positions were impossible for some shooters to get in to.  

Somehow the biggest dissappointment of all is how I went from being a 300 yard shooter yesterday, to completely failing today.  I doubt that anything I did over the weekend made me a better shooter than I was before.  It was more of "this is how to do things OUR way" than really focusing on more useful aspects.  

I have carried with me some fundamental things I will try to work on, like trigger pull, breathing and so forth.... I did get some benefit, just not all I expected.  

Personally, I won't be using appleseed to bring a new shooter on board.  The way I feel physically and mentally right now is not the frame of mind I would want a new shooter to be in.  I'll come around and be better after a while, yet a first impression would probably never recover from an experience like mine.

The first day I was thrilled at being able to do 300 yards.  I had some greivances, but it appeared that I was improving.  To have done so poorly today.... I just don't understand what I was doing so wrong.  Overall I had SOME fun, but it has been overshadowed by frustration.  That style of shooting isn't so much fun to me as setting some cans out and filling them with holes.  So maybe this course just didn't agree with me, maybe the volunteers were doing the best they could and it just wasn't enough, and maybe I just suck.  Badly.  I still appreciate them volunteering to do the event, and recognize all their hard work.  They are doing an honorable thing, and are helping to bring meaning to their cause.  I feel they should be supported for what they are trying to do, yet would recommend they make some changes to better accomodate the people they are trying to lure in.

Sorry to hear that Saturn.  I hate leaving the range with a gun that doesn't consistently hit where you're aiming.  Without being there, I'm not able to guess if it was you, the rifle or the instruction.

BTW what kind of ammo you were using?  Not that ammo is the solution to your problems, I was just curious.

Don't be too hard on yourself.  Did any of the instructors try shooting your rifle? If you find out through future range sessions that the rifle won't zero for ANYONE, you'll feel like an idiot for beating yourself up. Trust me BTDT...

good read..
I hope you get things worked out between you and your rifle...
I hate to see a strong relationship crumble because of a few misunderstandings between each other....

CXS

No, its not the gun.  

This thing is very capable, even with the georgia arms ammo I use.  They had me change my zero on day one.... then things seemed perfect for the "new way of shooting".  Then today, despite the fact I was hitting consistently to 300yds the day before, they had me change zero AGAIN.  That is B.S.  Obviously it was ME and not the rifle. My windage was always consistent the first day, dead zero.  The elevation took 6 clicks or so on the front sight.... Then today he wanted 4 more clicks on the front sight and three clicks windage.  I tried to put it back close to original when I got it home tonight.

How is it you have a shooting class, yet none of the people I was dealing with knew how to properly adjust the sights on an AR?  They are calculating MOA and clicks.... I always just used a target grid and adjusted until it was zeroed.  Their clicks were off by double.  He initially wanted 12 clicks adjustment on the front sight post the first day.  It managed to pretty much bottom the post to the sight base.  And what do you know?  Now I am shooting 3" high instead of low.  So I took 6 clicks out, and it seemed to do well until the second day when I was told to mess it all up.  I guess what works for one rifle doesn't necessarily work for all of them.

Overall I was sore when I started shooting, and then I loosened up and did fine.  I felt STEADY today, unlike most of yesterday.  The wobblies never set in to make steadiness a problem like yesterday.  My breathing was used to control elevation, I used what I needed to in order to shift natural point of aim, I closed my eyes, relaxed and took a breath or two and opened my eyes again to verify natural point of aim also.  I worked consciously on trigger pull, and follow through.  I tried hard to keep my elbows under the rifle, no matter how much it hurt.  My sling was kept tight.  Somewhere I failed, and I understand being off a little, but by the end it was so far off it was a joke for me to even try.  You don't go from being a 300 yard shooter to NOTHING without some identifiable cause.

My first (and only) time shooting at a real 100 yard range, Duece had a small steel plate painted orange.  It was probably 6"X12" or so, but fairly small at 100 yards.  I was hitting it, sitting at a bench.  This using my standard poor shooting techniques.  I seriously don't think my rifle was the problem, until the sights got adjusted out of whack.

I have a few questions about this course.

Was there one "lead" instructor or was all of the instruction done by the volunteers?

Was the majority of the course centered around prone shooting? Was there a cited reason as to why?

Was the course billed as being "practical"?

Was the sling they wanted you to use one of the leather CMP style slings?

Quoted: The day progresses.  We do more AQT drills.  I am trying pretty hard to remember all the things I am supposed to be doing, and doing them.  My shooting started bad, got better, then everything fell apart.  If I was grouping well, my point of aim was off, If my aim was sorta good, my groups were large. Eventually toward the end of the day, I was told to adjust my elevation and windage.  After my rifle had performed consistently, I was told to adjust the sights.... I did, because I was dumb enough to believe it would help.

Let me get this straight, you were making good hits to begin with, then as you got tired your groups started to wander, and you were told to adjust your sights!?  Whoever put on this c______ f___ should be ashamed of themselves for taking your money and wasting your time.  

Dude, if you can't make hits at 100 yards, the problem is not your rifle or your sights or your sling (or lack thereof).  And it's not that YOU are latently untalented, it's your TECHNIQUE that needs work, and a decent instructor would be able to fix that in no time flat.

Thanks for attending the class.  I now know who NOT to recommend.

Quoted: I have a few questions about this course. Was there one "lead" instructor or was all of the instruction done by the volunteers? Was the majority of the course centered around prone shooting? Was there a cited reason as to why? Was the course billed as being "practical"? Was the sling they wanted you to use one of the leather CMP style slings?

All instructors appeared to be volunteers.  Some appeared vastly more proficient than others, but sometimes appearances proved decieving.  It was obvious some of them were in to match shooting.

The course had a stronger emphasis on prone shooting, but sitting and standing were part of it also.  It centered around the army qualification test.  
10 shots standing, one mag, one large target.  
10 shots, one mag with two, reload, second mag with eight.  Start from standing position, move to sitting position, begin fire.  Two targets, smaller.  Five shots each target.
10 shots, one mag with two, second with eight.  Start from standing position, move to prone, fire three, three, and four shots at three smaller targets.
10 shots, prone, one mag, four tiny targets.
This was all done in a timed sequence.

I don't recall the course being billed as anything but a good way to get beginners involved.  I pesonally didn't see it that way at all.  

They required use of a GI web sling.  One end on the front swivel of the rifle, the other wrapped around your non-trigger bicep.  

I'd be happy to answer any other questions.  I'd also be happy to be a guinea pig.
I KNEW this course wasn't going to be some sort of CQB or combat type training.  I just thought it would involve more emphasis on perfecting the basics.  It was like I was in math class again in middle school.... they didn't allow you time to perfect your skill at any one thing.  You had to do what they said, when they said.  If you are not proficient at doing this task yet, too bad, oh and there will be a test in another 30 minutes.

If it had been a less involved course with focus on just a few particular items, instead of a slew of things thrown at you all at once, I would have been happier.  It was just too much going on at once sometimes.  Your moving on to more advanced things before mastering the first steps.... The foundation was not strong enough to build on yet if you catch my drift.

Dang, I thought I felt bad today (sore).

You were good to go yesterday....300 yds good.

Sorry to hear what went down today...kinda glad I skipped out too.


Lex

I should probably emphatically state one more time.

The IDEA behind the course is excellent.  Its a very low cost ($70 for two days) class billed as a way to bring beginners in to our sport.

As part of the appleseed course you are exposed to some fascinating history, which gives a sense of purpose to your task.  

The volunteers were friendly, and seemed to do the best they could with what they had.  I believe they only recieve a weeks worth of training beforehand.  Some seemed quite good at what they were doing... All sppeared to be genuine in their reasons for being there.  They want to begin and pass on a tradition.  And to "wake up" americans and get them to remember the history that made the country so strong.  

In hindsight, I don't fully agree with the pace, or the techniques involved in the class.  In short, if I had never shot before and this was my first time out, I would run like hell.  Its too painful for me to want this to be a "hobby".  Plus, I never got good enough in my own eyes to think I could take this hobby and be any good at it.

It is my belief that they could break up the program in to smaller stages and focus on individual skill sets to ease the transition to becoming a shooter, and build a strong foundation to add to later.  

I sincerely respect and appreciate those who volunteer and support the program.  It is an outstanding concept, that I feel needs some fine tuning.  

Quoted: All instructors appeared to be volunteers.  Some appeared vastly more proficient than others, but sometimes appearances proved decieving.  It was obvious some of them were in to match shooting.

Sounds like a huge part of the problem is right there. Personaly, if I'm taking a class I want to deal with a small cadre of instructors who are all on the same sheet of music. Minor variations in a technqiue are ok with me to a degree. However, the last thing I want to deal with is a group of guys who arent on the same level and are giving me conflicting instructions on what to do. The fact they couldnt diagnosis what your issue was speaks volumes about the level of instruction.

It centered around the army qualification test.   10 shots standing, one mag, one large target.   10 shots, one mag with two, reload, second mag with eight.  Start from standing position, move to sitting position, begin fire.  Two targets, smaller.  Five shots each target. 10 shots, one mag with two, second with eight.  Start from standing position, move to prone, fire three, three, and four shots at three smaller targets. 10 shots, prone, one mag, four tiny targets. This was all done in a timed sequence.

- I have no idea what qualification course that is. I know it wasnt in use when I was on active duty.

They required use of a GI web sling.  One end on the front swivel of the rifle, the other wrapped around your non-trigger bicep.

- The far end was attached to the rear of the stock, correct?

I KNEW this course wasn't going to be some sort of CQB or combat type training.  I just thought it would involve more emphasis on perfecting the basics.  It was like I was in math class again in middle school.... they didn't allow you time to perfect your skill at any one thing.  You had to do what they said, when they said.  If you are not proficient at doing this task yet, too bad, oh and there will be a test in another 30 minutes.

Any course that you take should overload you material wise. This is solely because there needs to be sufficent information for everyone there to gain something useful. A course that is "dumbed down", wont be of benefit to someone that has a large amount of training (in most cases). It is the whole "drinking from a firehose" concept. PDB will tell you that we (Defensive Concepts NC) throw a lot of material at our students. We structure our courses in a building block format to make the material easier to absorb, but we know that the students arent going to walk away masters of any of it. If a student firmly grasps a single principle, we feel our job has been done. With that being said, we dont leave the slower students behind. If work is needed on an indidvidual level we'll work with that person to try to get them up to speed. Again, any of our students that post here should be able to testify to this.

Quoted: As part of the appleseed course you are exposed to some fascinating history, which gives a sense of purpose to your task.

- And what is the sense of purpose one should possess?

All sppeared to be genuine in their reasons for being there.  They want to begin and pass on a tradition.  And to "wake up" americans and get them to remember the history that made the country so strong.

- The road to a particular place is paved with good intentions. I feel if you are out there teaching people; you need to know what you are doing  

Quoted: Quoted: They required use of a GI web sling.  One end on the front swivel of the rifle, the other wrapped around your non-trigger bicep.   - The far end was attached to the rear of the stock, correct?

No.  the sling was NOT attached to the stock.  Only on the front.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They required use of a GI web sling.  One end on the front swivel of the rifle, the other wrapped around your non-trigger bicep.   - The far end was attached to the rear of the stock, correct? No.  the sling was NOT attached to the stock.  Only on the front.

Wrapped around your arm like a tourniquet? I use that in HP matches.

Is this site about what you went to?

Yes.  Thats where we went.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They required use of a GI web sling.  One end on the front swivel of the rifle, the other wrapped around your non-trigger bicep.   - The far end was attached to the rear of the stock, correct? No.  the sling was NOT attached to the stock.  Only on the front.

Wow, I have never heard of that before. I've used a sling to brace out a shooting position, but it was attached at both ends of the gun.

Sounds like Fred should bill the class as an intro to high power shooting instead of being a return to the "rifleman" era

"Fred" is heavy into the hasty sling method of shooting.  Think of it as highpower light.

He's also big into shooting the AQT tagets ad infinitum.  He's got a boatload of them, and would be happy if "his" shooters shot the qualification targets at 25m all day long.

Back when the club used to be Riverside Gun Club (prior to Riverside being ejected from the property for electing a new president who wasn't "Fred") I used to shoot there every month.  They had electric pop-up tagets out to 500 yds, but "Fred" seemed to want everyone to shoot the AQT multiple times, often taking up half the day shooting AQT, rather than moving on to the pop-ups, during his "Cook or Rifleman" portion.  The objective being to shoot a score of 200 or more on the AQT to qualify as "Rifleman".

This tended to irritate most of the shooters, who preferred to shoot the pop-up portions of the course. (In fact, many of the shooters who shot more than 200 on the AQT regularly, used to show up late to the shoots, hoping to miss the AQT portion)We also used to shoot at line drawings of "UN APC's", and "blue helmet" targets.  (Practice for the coming invasion, don't ya know) At the time, there wasn't as much emphasis put on instruction.  It seemed (at least to me) that the AQT portion was used to show shooters that even though they could clear the targets at 100, 200, 300, and 500, if you couldn't score appropriately at the 25m AQT, you weren't a "true rifleman".

BAck when we used to shoot there, Jack/Fred used to rail against AR shooters, AK shooters, and SKS shooters.  THe only "real" rifle was an M-14 clone.  He even used to rag on FAL's and HK's as they "had no forward assist" and couldn't be counted on.

He seems to have changed that stance a bit, but let's remember that this "bastion of firearms freedom" not only chose to eliminate legal NFA shooting from "his" club (Riverside Gun Club), but also outlawed .50 BMG rifles. He also put in place a rule that stated you had to shoot a 200 or above on the AQT in order to shoot at the range, or you were considered a "safety risk" and could only shoot if supervised...even if you'd been a club member for years. THis is what lead to his ouster as club president, as well as his subsequent decision to boot the club off the land he controlled as head of the landowner's comittee.

Jack/Fred made it clear that it was going to be his way or nothing, and when he was voted out as president, by the by-laws he put in place, Riverside was evicted and the new RWVA club was formed.

It seems from your post that Jack is still a devotee of the AQT training method, and unfortunately, the training is sub-par.  

Personally, I haven't spoken to Jack since he booted my club off the property and installed a "new" club in it's place.  

It's unfortunate that you had a crappy time at this event which is supposed to be intorducing new shooters to the sport.  Nothing worse than spending cash, ammo, and time in a effort to get better and seeing no results.

I would think that if he were truly interested in promoting marksmanship, that the instruction would be enphasized more, instead of seeming to only be interested in collecting fees at shoots cross country.  Have you made Jack/Fred aware of your dissatisfaction?

Holy cow.  I had no idea....

Fred seemed like a genuine guy, as did all the volunteers.

However I simply don't agree with what they are trying to teach, nor the pace of the course, if it is indeed targeted to a beginner.  

I simply packed my gear and left at 5 pm.  We were supposed to go to the longer range, I guess for pop up targets or something.  I knew I couldn't hit them, so there was no point to it for me.  I was extremely unhappy with the advice given to me by Fred himself, not 30 minutes before.  Since doing what he said caused my shooting to go from poor to completely incapable.  

Now probably isn't the best time to speak to anyone regarding the matter.  I fully understand and respect the volunteers.  It is NOT their fault, and they were there on their own time, volunteering.  This speaks volumes about their heart.  I appreciate the effort, even if the results I got were not good.  

Perhaps speaking to someone in person would more eloquently relay the information, I feel I would come across too harsh in an email or forum.  I know myself well enough that by the time I left yesterday, IT WAS TIME TO LEAVE.  There would have been no productive exchange.  I was very angry, the result of two days of overwhelming frustration.  Everyone is different, and I react violently to those situations.  I knew I was able, yet I wasn't able to prove it on their paper target.  It was for the best I simply removed myself from the situation and had time to calm down and think about what had transpired.  I tried my best to analyze everything, and draw my personal beliefs out, without being clouded by anger.

My mother called this morning and asked how it went, and I said some things I probably shouldn't have.  Its still too early for me to speak my mind openly.  

For $70, I don't expect or desire a refund.  Its not a matter of the money... I get more every friday.  It is a matter of I simply don't see what they are teaching as a good way to draw in new shooters.  They have the historical and motivational part down.  They did fantastic at that.... I had no idea what I was getting in to was aimed at teaching me some form of competition shooting.  I have no desire to learn that, I wanted to learn real world shooting, or at least get a really good course on basics of marksmanship.  I guess my definition and theirs are too far apart.

It was obvious that when you break the group up, and send a few folks to the long range, and the rest of the class is still struggling with basics, that you don't have a good foundation in place to build upon.

They spoke of having fun, yet when some of the class simply sits out instead of shooting, that tells me they are not having fun.  

If the first day had been spent entirely on things like trigger squeeze, breathing, natural point of aim, and sight picture, it could have been much more fun than having everyone contorted in to uncomfortable positions.  Some of the class didn't even come back for a second day because of this alone.  You don't feed a baby steak and corn on the cob.  You give him what he can handle and help him grow in to something more capable.

The history you have just given us regarding the club and the program has been a real eye opener.  It is startling to me actually.  I was thinking of joining the RWVA, simply because it seemed to have its heart in the right places.  Yet I will not support the actions of individuals who act in the manner related to me.  That doesn't seem right in my eyes.  Its really a "take my ball and go home" sort of thing.  

Thanks for the enlightenment, I don't think I'll ever be taking a class there. I guess they would not like it if I showed up with an M82A1

Sorry you had such a bad experience (I'd be a little upset too if that was my situation), and thanks for taking one for the team, so to speak.

Thanks for the intel.    I've been wondering about the whole appleseed thing.



CHRIS

Oh, and just FYI, back when Riverside Gun Club was in Ramseur, we used to pay $5 to shoot the AQT and pop-up couse of fire.

$35 a day, $70 per weekend, at Jack/Fred's "home range" seems a bit stiff....

Quoted: I have no desire to learn that, I wanted to learn real world shooting, or at least get a really good course on basics of marksmanship.

I know some guys that might be able to help you with that.  

No.  the sling was NOT attached to the stock.  Only on the front.

Wow, I have never heard of that before. I've used a sling to brace out a shooting position, but it was attached at both ends of the gun.

Sounds like Fred should bill the class as an intro to high power shooting instead of being a return to the "rifleman" era


This is the way I was taught how to shoot with the rifle sling in the Marine Corps using only the front sling swivel and sling wraped to forearm. It takes getting used to at first but it does help with your shooting. This is why we always had a snaping in before were went to qual on the range to get used to our shoting positions. Sitting Kneeling Standing and the Prone.

Quoted: This is the way I was taught how to shoot with the rifle sling in the Marine Corps using only the front sling swivel and sling wraped to forearm. It takes getting used to at first but it does help with your shooting. This is why we always had a snaping in before were went to qual on the range to get used to our shoting positions. Sitting Kneeling Standing and the Prone.

We were taught to use the sling by simply routing it around the support arm while keeping it attached to the gun. Doing it the other way doesnt seem very practical to me.

Quoted: Quoted: I have no desire to learn that, I wanted to learn real world shooting, or at least get a really good course on basics of marksmanship.   I know some guys that might be able to help you with that.

Although I have not had the opportunity to take a class with DCNC yet (but can now due to funding and scheduling), I was going to recommend them, and will hopefully take several with them,  especially after meeting Mr. Hawley, who thoroughly impressed me (again, funding and serious lack of time off/availablilty ruined my summer chances at training)......

The deal with the "hasty" sling--is great for what it was intended for, on the 300 yard line. It is dominant on the HP line.....

I plan to take a DC course.  I'm just waiting on the moon and stars to be in alignment.  Lex and myself have discussed pistol and carbine courses.  

The posts I have read by the instructors have proven to me that they are professionals, and I feel I would gain much from what they have to offer.  

Honestly I don't care about shooting paper targets 400 yards away, so much as I want to be able to survive and defeat someone shooting at me!

I believe in preparing for the worst.  Several recent incidents have repeatedly proven that large scale disasters bring out the worst in a bad way.  I've had my wake up call courtesy of the news channel coverage of Katrina.  I've been preparing as I have been able since.

If anyone knows of a location where a carbine class can be held (we only need 50 yrds at most) feel free to send one of us an email or PM. A suitable site is the only thing stopping the carbine class from occuring.

Saturnstyl,

Whoa you're saying that they had you on the lower range by the range house? and you were only shooting at simulated range targets. You were'nt actually shooting at 100 yds but only at 25 yds. Dude that sucks. That facility has a 500 yd range with pop-ups at 200,300,400 and 500 yds in addition to having "B" mod steel targets at 200,300 and 500 yds.

This is the 500 yard line and my Tracer fired at the steel "B" mod from my SVT-40 3-4 years ago. Back when it was still Riverside Gun Club and a fun place to shoot.



BTW, When RGC was there, NFA was OK, 50's were ok out to 300 yds.

Jason

Thanks for the write-up and sorry about your crummy weekend.  I'm glad I decided not to go to this.  I'm tight on money, ammo, and time right now and it seems I would have been disappointed.  

x156

Were there restrictions on the rifles/sights used?  Just wondering what was being used on the line.  



CHRIS

Wow.  I can't believe that over the course of three days they didn't let you have a go at the actual range targets.  I used to shoot there in the matches years ago.  I would bet you would have found that hitting the man size popups at 500 yds. was actually easier than hitting the sims at 25m.

The AQT is a good teaching tool up to a point, but after that it becomes primarily a convenient form of practice for those with limited access to longer ranges.  Once you know what you're supposed to be doing, you are better off practicing by yourself or with a few friends than having a bunch of "instructors" lording over you giving conflicting info.  Someone looking to learn basic marksmanship skills would be better off going to some of the smaller HP matches and getting tips from the more experienced shooters, IMHO.  It would definitely be cheaper.

My $.02 worth, YMMV.

Look forward to hearing your feedback on the DC course.  That sounds interesting.

Quoted: Someone looking to learn basic marksmanship skills would be better off going to some of the smaller HP matches and getting tips from the more experienced shooters, IMHO.  It would definitely be cheaper.

This advice can be golden, if you find someone willing to spend the time and teach you, and there's a lot of them in highpower, I learned most of my stuff from a High Master, and I could not ask for anymore patience and more help--he was always wanting to teach me more and always wanted to constantly practice.

Quoted: Were there restrictions on the rifles/sights used?  Just wondering what was being used on the line.   CHRIS

In my experience, there are no restrictions - although anything but irons and an M1A or M1 is looked at with disdain (i.e., Rifleman attained via optics on an AR is frowned upon, yet technically "legal").

I enjoyed my Appleseed shoot, although I can see why people get frustrated. Our instructors were all noobs fresh from Fred's boot camp and I received conflicting advice from a couple of them. I must have adjusted my sights 20 times during the weekend. My problem was flinching (yep, I said it) and lack of familiararity with the positions and sling. My rifle was not at fault.

I feel if you want to attend a shoot, get REALLY familiar with your rifle and have it sighted in properly. Learn the positions (prone, kneeling, standing). Learn the six steps to taking a shot. Dry fire a LOT and get used to the sling techniques BEFORE attending an Appleseed (and MARK YOUR SLING FOR EACH POSITION). Buy a USGI cotton or nylon sling (if you can find them). If not, don't expect miracles on your first venture, although you will learn the basics. I was one of those lost causes in my class and still have a way to go.

I understand the philosophy of using iron sights on a true battle rifle. If you can hit at 300+ yards consistently with your irons there won't be many people that'll want to rush your position or enjoy doing it.

Finally, being a "cook" ain't so bad. Steven Seagal was a cook and whooped up on Tommy Lee Jones.

For several other perspectives on Appleseed, read the comments here:  http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=758.0

The Appleseed program has several points of focus including history and rifle marksmanship.  At its foundation, America was awash in Riflemen.  The American tradition of marksmanship is fading.  Appleseed is an attempt to reignite and stoke this flickering flame before it burns out.

Think of Appleseed like this.  If you were back in 1775 with your rifle, ammo, and gear, would you get the maximum out of your present day equipment when trying to repel the British?  If not, here are the drills to work on until you can.    

Appleseed can seem like trying to drink from a firehose.  There is a lot of information that gets shared over the course of the two days.  I have attended a couple of Appleseed events.  The idea is to give someone the tools that will help them become proficient through persistence.  It is not as simple as collecting fees in the morning and passing out a Rifleman certificate to everyone at the end of the day.  Although, some shooters do prove they have earned the title before the end of the first day.  

I have also attended a Boot Camp event.  The boot camp is geared toward turning out Riflemen and future instructors.    The pace of the boot camp is slower with more repetition.  The classes are smaller with more individual attention than an Appleseed.  The boot camp instructor to student ratio is about 1:2.  

Appleseed is not geared toward high power competition.  This is obvious in two respects.  First, Appleseed teaches to use the sling in all positions to aid in getting quick hits.  In high power competition, the sling cannot be used in standing.  Secondly, the Appleseed course of fire uses a head and shoulders silhouette target that is a fixed size across all distances.  High power competition involves a target that is round and fixed at 6MOA across all distances.  

The traditional positions of prone, sitting, and kneeling are not initially comfortable.  But, these positions when mastered are very stable.  The sling is not comfortable, but it adds stability.

The AQT is the measuring stick that is used to evaluate progress.  Making solid hits at distance and waking up Americans are the goals of the program.

Perhaps a brief syllabus should be included in the pre-registration information.  That way, potential students would better know what to expect.    

Like my mom is fond of saying: If you like sausage, you would do well NOT to watch it being made. The Appleseed program is some fine sausage, too.

The appleseed in question was the instructiors losing their 'red hat' cherries. Perhaps you want to considar that before you go poor mouthing the whole program. Just a though. Every one is a little different, depending on the crew and the region in which it was held.

BTW: Congrats AR-180, and thanks for steppin' up!

I attended the 'boot camp' put on by Fred and Co. in Febrary this year. Cold as hell.
I showed up with an AR 15 with iron sights, and by the end of the 4th day I had eye strain so bad I didn't get rid of the head ache for almost a week afterwards. Yes I took a fair amount of ribbing for using a 'poodle shooter'. But I did get instruction. AND if finally got some real help with my canting problem. It is that pesky line of sight/line of the bore peculiarity with AR's that had been giving me fits for a whole year. Anyway..... It took some persistance, but the time spent was not wasted. In the end I want to teach for RWVA if only to pay forward what was given so readily and so economically.

I am sorry Saturn did not find the experience to be to his liking. I do give him props for at least going to see for himself. It sounds like you had some reasonable expectations that maybe didn't get met. I wish I had been there to help you out. I like the AR myself. There are just a few inharent wrinkles to it that M!A shooters maybe don't always catch.....

I will say this: for ME, who has had multiple 'practical' rifle classes (M4, 200 yards max range, using an eotec, shoot houses, loads of shooting from a three point sling, snap shooting, etc), I made lemonaid out of the experience. Let me explain: I drove to Ramsuer from California, I got there not haveing spent any range time with my particular rifle, the weather was a real challange, I was a yankee (from the land of Feinstein no less) behind the Mason/Dixon (cultural adjustment), I had no basis in the material (never had seen a loop sling used before, didn't know a 'D' or Dog Target from boo, most of my shooting was from off hand with a 3 point sling, etc etc.), and yeah I will admit it- I was a 'short bus' kind of student.

It was not the appleseed or the boot camp that did anything for me. I had to leave there and put the hours and the money into the application. Prone hurts. For awhile. Getting the loop sling figured out is a pain in the ass. But by so doing my ability to get hits on target went up 60 percent. I left there a better shot than I was when I got there. I had many many many hours and days of putting the sling and the inches, minutes and clicks info into practical application with my particular rifle system. At the moment that happens to be an M1A. Once I get that worked out I plan to go back to my A2. Once I get that worked out it will be a Springfield 02A3. But that's just me......

Maybe I do not care for Fred, personally. So what? It doesn't mean that I can't derive benifit from what he has to teach or say. I will state that catagorically I am behind the program. Principals before personalities. I don't have to live with Fred or even see him on a regular basis. DO use the things I got there all the time: I have a commitment to aquiring the skill set of shooting within 4MOA, I do alot more dry practice than I ever did, I use the sling and the shooting jacket, and I follow the 'six steps of the shot'. And I don't spend as much time hiking down range to check my targets because I do alot of my work at 25 meters his
There are many rooms in the mansion that is shooting. Appleseed is but one. I have found that it takes all kinds. I would say to all who would read this thread and decide not to partake two things: 1) it is your choice do go or not go to the program & 2) Nothing beats seeing it with your own eyes and with your own boots on the ground. Go see for yourself.  Like I said, it takes all kinds: The other felllows I met there were some of the finest guys I have met in a long time. Some I had more connection with than others.

Yes the program is heavily flavored by Fred's personality. That doesn't have to mean that a person can't use it towards higher purpose. You can get the info without drinking the kool aid. And there is info there that you ain't gonna find at the high falootin' gun schools like (names deleted to protect the innocent).

And, as ever, your milage may very. I have been stalled at 198 on the AQT for months. But every week it is off to the range to hang out with the High Power geezer who wants to help me out.

I like the program, the IDEALS it proports to further, and the nice idea that using iron sights is kind of like learning to drive a stick shift: though you may prefer an automatic, it is comforting to be able to drive ANYTHING.

Bobby Shaftoe

Quoted: The appleseed in question was the instructiors losing their 'red hat' cherries. Perhaps you want to considar that before you go poor mouthing the whole program. Just a though.

That right there says a whole lot about the program on it's own.  Thanks for clearing that up.
The story time sounds nice, though.

CHRIS

height=8

Quoted: height=8 Quoted: The appleseed in question was the instructiors losing their 'red hat' cherries. Perhaps you want to considar that before you go poor mouthing the whole program. Just a though. That right there says a whole lot about the program on it's own.  Thanks for clearing that up. The story time sounds nice, though. CHRIS

If you mean that you now see that it is a grass roots all volinteer (nobody gets paid wages for thier work) program where the dedicated individuals who take up the mantle of being instructors might be a little rough on their first try, than I am happy I cleared that up for you.

Because that is what I was trying to get across.

That is MY direct, boots on the ground, seen it with my own eyes, experience.

Hope it's helpful

Haha!!  That's the company line and I'm sticking too it, catch phrases and all.

I agree with a lot of these guys that it is a very good idea.  But this one  had a cadre with many inexperienced individuals as the coaches and instructors (yes I know they are volunteers--who paid to become instructors) having guys adjust rifles they knew nothing about. That's nothing to be proud of, grassroots or not.  

Billing it at and charging for "marksmanship training" is very reaching, when it should be called a "history lesson with a bit of shooting."

I guess that was my main point.  I wish you and your club the best.  

CHRIS

Well thanks for being civil about it. hat
Best of luck to you as well.

I was at the Ramseur Appleseed as one of those "new" instructors after spending a week at the bootcamp.
While I'm new to the Appleseed program, I am not new to shooting a rifle. I joined the program because the techniques they are teaching will make you a better rifle shooter.
There were a little over 30 shooters at the Appleseed and evidently one of them was dissatisfied with the training. I'm sorry but from the post I read the first day of training went well. The gentleman improved his position, learned how to use a sling, worked on natural point of aim and trigger control. That's a lot to learn in a day. The second day didn't go so well but that's not the end of the world. When he feels better and is more rested he can go back to working on the basics and continue to improve.
Why did things go south on the second day? Well he was tired and may have been making some mistake in his technique. The fundamentals of marksmanship only work when you do them. If you slack off, so do your scores.
We had a lot of instructors at the Ramseur Appleseed and that may have been part of the problem. If you tell eight or nine guys that they are coaches, well, they feel like they should coach. One coach looks at your target and offers a suggestion based on the group on the target. Another is walking the line and offers a suggestion based on watching your position or your technique.  You take it as conflicting instruction. Things might have gone better if we had had fewer instructors on the line but other shooters were quite happy to have the benifit of extra instruction.
While I don't have a problem with the initial poster who attended the course and gave his honest opinion, I am less than pleased with some of the forum members that chimed in to denigrate the Appleseed Program. I was very supprised that a professional instructor would make stupid comments concerning a course he has never attended. Talk about unprofessional, He takes the cake.
If you are happy shooting a rifle in a room or off a bench then Appleseed is probably not for you but if you would like to learn how to shoot a rifle well using proven techniques that will improve your shooting in general, then you make want to try an Appleseed when you have the chance.

Doug in Virginia

I guess I will have some of that cake too,


I have never been to Appleseed, so I am not going to talk about Appleseed.
I was police instructor in NC, and have been a police instruction/advisor several other places.
Saturnstyl gave you as an instructor the most valuable thing he could. A straight evaluation of training and instruction right after the fact and straight from the hip.
He then rested thought it over in the clear light of day and gave Appleseed a second evaluation.
As an instructor this would be gold to me. We all pass out those comment evaluation sheets at the end of training.
What we get is a few checked off blocks and a few attaboys and the occasional get bent.

Saturnstyl gave you what he thought and WHY.  This kind of feed back is invaluable in improving the course.
From what I read this student was tired and discouraged for what seemed to me to be legitimate reasons, conflicting instruction, a lack of one on one coaching time.
If this review was about one of my classes I would immediately set up a check and balance system to be able to evaluate my instructors, not to blame anyone but to be sure we are all on the same page and improve the program.  I don’t mind tired students, but I want them encouraged and not frustrated if they are not then I failed as an instructor, the student did not fail me.

I learn something from every class I teach, usually how I could have done it better. But as a student I don’t want to be the beta tester for a group of new instructors.

NOI

nooneimportant,

I agree and posted that I thought he gave an honest assessment of his training. He said a lot that was good and some that was bad. His experience on the first day of training described learning new skills and he spoke of improvement in his groups. The second day he was tired and frustration took over.

I had no quarrel with his honest opinion. My "cake" reply was to the guy who was offering his professional opinion of a course he had never attended and sniffed around looking for students for his oun course of instruction.

You are right that an honest student response is hard to get and worth it's weight in gold toward improving a program. He brought up some points which I had noted during the weekend of training and think should be addressed.

Doug in Virginia

Thank you again to those who gave their time, and believe me it was not for nothing.

I was genuinely afraid of having this discussion heading south, and spreading out to other places on this forum and others.  I didn't want to be taken out of context, seen as a "basher", or as an incompetent fool who just didn't get it.  I was the most afraid at those who volunteered in a good faith effort reading these statements and taking it the wrong way.

I know what you look like, and you know what I look like.  We will probably meet again at some time in the future, and I would like to remain on a friendly basis should that happen.  I hold no grudge, and wish that you do the same.  I met some great people at the shoot, they helped me, and I helped them as much as I could.

What was posted were my sincere feelings on what transpired, both positive and the less disirable ones as well.  You were right, I had a much better first day than the second day.  From the responses I read, I think I did a good job conveying my true experience.  I hope that it will only be used to better the program in some way.  

I'm glad this productive discussion is taking place, and that I haven't been dragged through the mud as a result of not sugar coating my personal story.  Its intended to be constructive criticism.  Its really the only thing I have to contribute at this point, but as others have stated its pretty important to get this kind of feedback.  

All I can do is be honest, and my integrity is important to me.  I don't want to cause a divide amongst the people we have here.  You are all my friends, and the people on this website have done more for me than I could ever hope to repay.  

Quoted: I was very supprised that a professional instructor would make stupid comments concerning a course he has never attended. Talk about unprofessional, He takes the cake.

You call them stupid comments, I call them clarifying questions. You know, the questions one asks to seek clarification about an issue they don't know about. I had heard about the Appleseed program and have been aware of Fred for a number of years.  I wanted to see how the Appleseed courses were being billed to students and how it interplayed with Fred's beliefs.

Those stupid comments were also constructive criticisms. Feel free to ignore them if you wish.  

My "cake" reply was to the guy who was offering his professional opinion of a course he had never attended and sniffed around looking for students for his oun course of instruction.

I wasn't sniffing for anything. I was blatantly offering up the services of the company I work for since they appear to be a better match to the OP's desires than the course he attended. He wants to be able to protect himself during times of crisis. It appears, by his comments, he feels that he cant do that effectively with the material you presented. DCNC happens to have created to give people such as the OP the opportunity to obtain the skills to protect themselves that they desire. We make no illusions about who we are or what we teach. Obviously not every company is the same.

And when it comes to my professional opinion, it is easy to give when obvious short-comings are present even if I wasn't in attendance. It should be obvious that placing numerous novice instructors on the line without senior instructors watching them closely is an error. The fact that the instructors are looking at different things (one might watch the shooter, another only reads the target) shows inconsistency in how the new instructors were taught to teach. But hey, I wasn't there so what do I know?

btw fred is the dog, jack does the writing.

Quoted: btw fred is the dog, jack does the writing.

Yup, Fred was the dog (he's passed on).

Folks, you should take a long hard look at the program.

Yes, it's 25 meters, as that is the best distance to train at. Where does that distance come from? The US Army and the USMC. Yup, their initial training is at 25 meters. Then it moves further out.

The program is based on the old US Army 25 meter Qualification Course.

I've heard comments about Appleseed Instructors "looking down at you" for using other than an M1 or M14 clone. Well, it ain't so, folks. I'm an Instructor with the program, and I own (or have used) about every military rifle out there, short of a CETME, HK or MAS. I own an AR myself, and have used one for a living for over 35 years now (less 4 years my assigned weapon was an M9 pistol). Scopes aren't looked down upon either.

In fact, we actually encourage folks to get a .22, like a 10/22 Ruger (or a Ciener conversion for an AR), so they can practice more for less money expended. A .22 is a good way for a new shooter to learn, as they aren't intimidating and have very low recoil. A Ruger, with the parts to "tart it up" (trigger and bolt release mods, ext mag release and decent sights or scope) plus a couple thousand rounds of ammo is cheaper than 1000 rounds of QUALITY 5.56 or 7.62 NATO ammo.

The program isn't for everybody, I guess, and so be it. It's not the end to learning marksmanship, either. It's the beginning to learning marksmanship. Gunsite it isn't. It is a 2 day course, for $70, in your area. That's something that Gunsite isn't, either.

Saturnstyl, sorry to hear about your experience. Sounds like you had a bad time. I wish I had answers for you, but, alas, I don't. I can tell you that there are 2 ways of using a sling, the loop sling (just hooked to the fore end) and the hasty sling (wrapped around the forward arm). Both work.

I don't know what happened to you, either, as by your admission you did shoot a 196 on an AQT on Saturday. Sounds like you weren't ready for 2 days of shooting, in a physiccal sense, and that is nothing to be ashamed of. That happens more than you would think. And, that could be a cause for things to fall apart on the second day.

As to anybody that thinks they don't shoot much at an Appleseed, come to one before making that statement again. Bring about 500 rounds of ammo when you come, you'll need it. And many of the Appleseeds shoot out to 400 yards. Some are strictly short range, as sometimes the range facility is limited.

And, if you're looking for what other people have said about the program, check out some of the other regions here at this forum. There's several events that have been discussed.