User Panel
Posted: 1/4/2006 11:54:00 AM EDT
Here's a good one.
I ordered 1000 rounds of Wolf 62gr .223 from Sportsmans Guide earlier this week for delivery to Annapolis, MD. Here's SGs email reply: From: The Sportsman's Guide [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:21 AM To: XXX Subject: Restricted Notice Dear Guide Customer, Thank you for your recent order xxxxx with us at The Guide. Unfortunately, the following items are restricted to your billing zip code, therefore we can not ship these items to you: - 1000RDS .223 62GR FMJ AMMO We have not billed your charge card for any restricted items. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused you. If you would like to verify availability on a particular item, call our Order Desk (1-800-882-2962) or our Customer Service Department (1-800-888-5222) to help you. Please reference your order number: XXXXX. Thank you for shopping The Guide. I responded: From: XXX Date: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:45 AM To: [email protected] ([email protected]) Subject: RE: Restricted Notice I received the email, below, following an order for .223 ammunition. I'm writing to request some further info on the restriction to delivery to my billing zip code referred to in your email. I have purchased ammo by mail for 20 years and online for a least the past 3 years and have never run into this restriction. If possible, please include a citation to applicable US Code or Maryland statute. Thanks for your assistance, XXX SG responded: Dear XXX, Thank you for the E-mail. We have placed certain restrictions, on certain items listed in our catalog and our web site. Due to the various state, county and municipal laws that exist, we are not always able to comply with each individual guideline. Not all of the restrictions are based on laws on the books, but could be a company decision based on certain concerns. Things such as whether the state law suits pending involving gun owners, recent court decisions that may effect businesses like ours. Finally it may be that the states laws are so vague that they could be interpreted unfavorably in the event a court action was ever involved, and finally as a public held company, we are obligated to safeguard our stockholder's investments. I have spoke with our products department and they said that the major influence in our decision is that it is located too close the the District of Columbia. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you. If you have any other questions please contact us. Enjoy the Outdoors, XX XX Customer Service |
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I live 5 min (walking) from DC/ Georgetown; my zip is 22201 (Arlington); guess I'll cross "Sportsman's NON-Friend" off my potential order list. What retards.
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That IS insane - looks like they forget who they work for.
I've written them a letter to discuss this and have linked them here: Dear Sportsman's Guide, One of the guys at AR15.Com posted this at the AR-15 Maryland Hometown Forum. I am a regular subscriber to you catalog and have purchased literally thousands of dollars in merchandise through your company over the past ten years, I was even a 'buyer's club member for a few years. I state my name and address below, so that you may verify what I say, and so that you may take appropriate action. If this is an actual e-mail exchange as he indicates, I am VERY unhappy with your arbitrary decision to legislate ammo legality and restriict delivery for no good reason, except perhaps the opinion of a new liberal you have on staff. While DC enjoys some particularly illegal, useless and silly restrictions on the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, MD is not quite so bad (yet) and the ammo you reportedly refused to ship is perfectly legal to buy and possess here in Maryland, even in Annapolis, even within ten feet of the DC line for that matter. Take a look at a map (Maryland), please note that HALF of maryland is "close to DC", not that we're the least bit proud of it. I would appreciate it very much if you would not be in such a hurry to usher in further restrictions, particularly one with such assinine basis. I honestly cannot believe you would not honor a legal ammo order as is stated below, so I ask you for myself. If the e-mail exchange does represent your actual stance, put yourself in the same catagory as the sell-outs at Smith & Wesson, with their support of the not-yet invented 'smart gun', or with the idiots at Ruger, with their self-imposed magazine capacity restrictions. As just another self-serving company that would forget those who support it with purchases to exercise their LEGAL RIGHTS, you may remove my name from your catalog ciculation list. Without a reasonable response from you, or immedaite withdrawal of this policy, you and I are DONE and I will spend my money elsewhere, gladly. You may cancel my subscription as is appropriate to your reply. As a range officer, active member of several sporting clubs, competitive shooter and active member of several internet discussion boards, I will do my very best to use my many contacts to enlighten my fellow sportsman to your unreasonable and ungrateful policies. For example, see the discussion thread at AR-15.Com. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=29&t=219580 Please, feel free to log on and make a public statement . . . . Thank you in advance for not adding my e-mail data to your e-mail circulation list. Sincerely, xxxx ****************** The e-mail exchange in question: quote: Here's a good one. I ordered 1000 rounds of Wolf 62gr .223 from Sportsmans Guide earlier this week for delivery to Annapolis, MD. Here's SGs email reply: From: The Sportsman's Guide [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:21 AM To: XXX Subject: Restricted Notice Dear Guide Customer, Thank you for your recent order xxxxx with us at The Guide. Unfortunately, the following items are restricted to your billing zip code, therefore we can not ship these items to you: - 1000RDS .223 62GR FMJ AMMO We have not billed your charge card for any restricted items. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused you. If you would like to verify availability on a particular item, call our Order Desk (1-800-882-2962) or our Customer Service Department (1-800-888-5222) to help you. Please reference your order number: XXXXX. Thank you for shopping The Guide. I responded: From: XXX Date: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:45 AM To: [email protected] ([email protected]) Subject: RE: Restricted Notice I received the email, below, following an order for .223 ammunition. I'm writing to request some further info on the restriction to delivery to my billing zip code referred to in your email. I have purchased ammo by mail for 20 years and online for a least the past 3 years and have never run into this restriction. If possible, please include a citation to applicable US Code or Maryland statute. Thanks for your assistance, XXX SG responded: Dear XXX, Thank you for the E-mail. We have placed certain restrictions, on certain items listed in our catalog and our web site. Due to the various state, county and municipal laws that exist, we are not always able to comply with each individual guideline. Not all of the restrictions are based on laws on the books, but could be a company decision based on certain concerns. Things such as whether the state law suits pending involving gun owners, recent court decisions that may effect businesses like ours. Finally it may be that the states laws are so vague that they could be interpreted unfavorably in the event a court action was ever involved, and finally as a public held company, we are obligated to safeguard our stockholder's investments. I have spoke with our products department and they said that the major influence in our decision is that it is located too close the the District of Columbia. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you. If you have any other questions please contact us. Enjoy the Outdoors, XX XX Customer Service **************************** |
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Well written eshell
That is pure BS! A company that is willing to turn away customers like that doesn't need my buisness either. |
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Maybe I should sent SG a photograph of the Alexandria gunstore "Potomac Arms" - their shop is on the bank of the Potomac river & the windows overlook D.C. Still, a VA shop is a VA shop & they follow Commonwealth law as they are obligated to do.
Does SG seem to think that D.C. laws have some sort of "proximity effect" - being more in force the closer you get to D.C.?? I wonder if they will ship to states that share a border with Mexico or Canada? Would not want to get too close - you know. |
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Well, guess they don't need my business either, I have purchased several hundred dollars in ammo and other items but there are other sources. The hell with 'em.
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Good call on your part: look at this thread from another customer:
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=481944 Looks like their customer service is going way down hill. |
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Welp,
They just lost my business for good unless they reverse their stance, and apologize for their lack of testicular fortitude. John F. |
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Looks like I'll be spending money elsewhere. I just forwarded this link off to Henry Heymering (he sends out the Maryland pro gun stuff).
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Damn....and I just joined their little club thing because it saved me more money on my order than it cost me to join. I guess I will have to get busy after work firing off a similar letter.
Funny how Georgia Arms has no qulams about shipping me any of their fine ammo, nor do CMP or AIM. |
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Has anybody ever ordered from ammoman.com? I have been cruising his web site for quite a while. I wonder if he has a similar restriction, probably not right?
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"Everyone" sends ammo here except (apparently) SG, a company I 'used to' do business with, and will not continue unless we hear something favorable within a reasonable time span.
The next one that refuses gets cut out of my will, too. There are just way too many decent vendors that know the law, know the constitution and are still on the side of the consumer to deal with a bunch of high-school girls screaming "murder" like this. Bad enough being overrun with a bunch of do-gooder soccer moms with too much time on their hands and effeminate metrosexuals, now some mail order outfit is helping out with our moral decisions, for our own safety. One can attend the Upper Malboro gun show, situated almost exactly halfway between Annapolis and DC, and carry out handcarts of ammo. "AmmunitionStore.Com" regularly sets up a booth. Chantilly is just as close to DC and sells more ammo than Upper Marlboro . . . but all that is just silly rationalizations, this is just some arbitrary decision based on someone irrational opinion. They state in their first e-mail quoted above that not all decisions they make are grounded in law. I did receive an automated acknowlegement to my e-mail, but nothing further yet. |
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Constantly buy ammo from ammoman.com. Highly recommended, and he gets stuff to MD FAAAAAST!. HTH John |
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Kind enough to reply, and "sorry I don't like it", but no sign of sanity:
I guess I'll tell her about the ass-load of ammo she's already sent out to my place, which is likely closer to DC via 295 than Annapolis via 50, and tell her that she'll have to take me off their list. Rascals. |
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Well, I stewed on it some and realized how aggravated this is and so I went and asked them to discontinue my catalog:
This really burns me up, like my girlfriend was sleeping with the enemy. Bastards make their living on us. |
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Anyone up for a group buy of Georgia Arms ammo? They do free shipping on orders over $500.00 and their stuff is outstanding. I usually schlepp over to Dulles to get some of their stuff, but from Annapolis it's a pretty long haul plus a $10.00 admission.
Just a thought...... |
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I've already talked this over with the "guys" at work and it seems that they've lost an additional 6-7 customers in Maryland. Oh well, I suppose their shareholders wont mind a little less this year.
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Weird - I have ordered ammo from them before and had no problem. I live north of Olney, but south of Mt. Airy.
This may be a new policy . . . . I just sent an email about my zip code's status . . . |
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I'm in Annapolis as well and just sent off an email asking whether they will ship to me.
Guess I better put together another sig line for my THR account......if enough shooters call them and cancel their catalogs maybe we'll get our point across. |
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Sending to [email protected]
I wonder if my zip code 20878 is too close to DC? It wasn't for the previous 1K of .223 I bought from you. It won't matter in the future unless you rescind the ridiculous policy of not shipping ammo to zip codes "near" DC. |
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Here was my e-mail I sent to them. I included the original exchange that brillo had.
By the way, anyone thought of posting this in GD to get some sort of massive e-mail wave from the arfcommers across the country? SG, It is my understanding you have recently refused to deliver ammunition to a Maryland resident living in Annapolis, Maryland because he was "too close to Washington D.C." The ammunition is perfectly legal and there are no restrictions sending the ammunition to this state. When asked to reply to his message with a Maryland law you said that it was not illegal, but something you were doing on your own. If this is the case, please remove my name from all mailing lists and rest assured I will spend the hundreds of dollars I spend with you elsewhere. I will conduct no business with a company that makes and imposes it's own laws on law-abiding gun owners when you have no basis or right to do so. You were not elected, you don't get to make your own laws. Your communism is not appreciated by the residents of this state. Your response is appreciated. Thanks... XXXXX A copy of your response to this individual is included for your reference below... |
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Thought of the same thing. You'll get the wave of people saying well you shouldn't live there and expect different or some such crap. I say the Constitution doesn't care which state you live in! Go for it. |
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Will do BBQman. I'll drop the link here as well.
Brillo was the original poster. Brillo, if you have an issue with us putting this in GD, please let me know and I'll get the thread killed or maybe BBQman can help with that. GD thread here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=425080&page=1 |
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Several years ago, the Yoyo, excuse me, Yolo County, CA DA went on a suing spree.
He ordered blades he knew were illegal in CA by mail order, then tried to bring charges against the companies. Basically, "You shipped this weapon which is illegal in CA to CA and have violated CA, so we're filing charges, unless you want to pay Danegeld in the amount of half a million dollars." Items in question were lipstick knives, sword canes, daggers that didn't qualify as hunting knives (see, if it has a wooden or horn handle, it's a hunting knife. If it's got a black metal or plastic handle, it's a deadly weapon. Sound like familiar panty-shitting?) SG ponied up for about that much. So did The Edge. So did Smoky Mountain Knifeworks, even though they were misidentified as "Rocky Mountain Knifeworks." Atlanta Cutlery refused to play ball. As I understand it, Bill Adams got on the phone, demanded to speak to this scumbag, and said something to the effect of, "Everything I sell is legal in Georgia. If you knew it was illegal where you are, you're the criminal. As you seem to be in the enforcement business, no crime was committed. If you want to discuss it, file in a Georgia court and I'll have the state police ready to arrest you for extortion when you plane lands. Have a nice fucking day." That's a paraphrase, but he apparently told them to get stuffed and didn't pay any money or wind up in court. The pussies coughed up and now let local whiners dictate their selling policy. The lesson here is: don't pay the Danegeld. |
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Good luck with that. Maybe MD will get more support but the general consensus from what I gather is CA got little to no support on this. |
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Count me in for another 500 rounds of .223 and another 500 of .45 Best stuff I've ever used. And I've ordered from SG in the past. Emailing them next to tell them where to stick their weekly emails. |
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Eff 'em. Y'all should sue them, and get class action status. The lawyers might make a little money, and lawyers are just as happy making money off of RKBA folks as the Brady Bunch. Have you notified NRA-ILA? If so, what was their response?
Submitted via their web-site customer service form just now:
I hope y'all pursue this with the State and County (leastwise PG and Charles) governments. Even if it doesn't go anywhere, a query from the State might get Sportsman's Guide's attention. |
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Hey Brillo,
I suspect you're still listing SG prices here as a service to ARF members. That said, it sucks that you might be throwing business their way. It seems, at the very least, their discriminatory policies should be prominently displayed -- as well as their dismissive attitude in response to courteous requests for a change -- all the more so, because you know the veracity of the reports of SG's stance. After all, it happened to you. Inquiring minds want to know ... |
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I placed another order for ammo Thursday morning and received the same response - no deliveries to my zip code. My email to SG sent Thursday evening, which they have not responded to:
Thanks for your prompt reply. I'm responding once again to request the reconsideration of your decision to deny the sale of ammunition to me because I am a resident of Annapolis, Maryland, a location you have deemed "too close to the District of Columbia". [30 miles] I am in full compliance with your shipping guidelines for ammunition which state: "A person placing an order for such items [ammunition] on this website warrants that he or she is an adult and is under no legal restrictions which would prohibit such person from ordering, owning, possessing, or transferring these items under applicable federal, state or local law. Further, these items cannot be sold to minors, convicted felons, those convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic abuse or those chemically dependent. For ammo and black powder orders, a person warrants that he or she is at least 21 years of age." I've consulted the National Rifle Association of America and on their recommendation, have forwarded your communication to the NRA Institute for Legislative Action. The NRA National Headquarters in Fairfax, VA, is, at 16 miles from the District of Columbia, well within your restricted zone. Please consider a reevaluation of this issue before it becomes a highly publicized embarrassment for Sportsmans Guide. Respectfully, XXX I had hoped to receive some type of response by the end of the business day, Friday, but it appears they intend to continue this policy. Edited to add: Re: the Ammo Price List, I try to maintain the appearance of objectivity on the ammo forum and with the price list. But you might want to stock-up on SG's Wolf .223 at $104.97/1000 less the $10 coupon. The sales manager at Wolf mentioned to me that at that price, they're selling it below cost. |
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Has anyone posted on the VA hometown board to confirm that the guys in Northern VA are getting the same treatment? They have some counties next to DC as well. Just checked and answered my own question there is a thread there - check it out.
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I posted it on the VA board. With the exception of Larry, the response I got was the uber-intellectual "that's because MD sucks and VA doesn't"
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Arbitrary restrictions on ammunition shipments - you lose another customer SG, It is my understanding you have recently refused to deliver ammunition to a Maryland resident living in Annapolis, Maryland because he was "too close to Washington D.C." The ammunition is perfectly legal and there are no restrictions sending the ammunition to this state. When asked to reply to his message with a Maryland law you said that it was not illegal, but something you were doing on your own. If this is the case, please remove my name from all mailing lists and rest assured I will spend the hundreds of dollars I spend with you elsewhere. I will conduct no business with a company that makes and imposes it's own laws on law-abiding gun owners when you have no basis or right to do so. You were not elected, you don't get to make your own laws. Your communism is not appreciated by the residents of this state. BTW - you've shipped me over 10,000 rounds of ammunition to my house in Columbia, MD, which is just as close as Annapolis. Your response is appreciated. Thanks... Paul Britton ID # xxxxxx A copy of your response to this individual is included for your reference below... |
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Customer Service
I have recently been made aware, along with thousands of others online, that you refused to ship legal ammunition to a customer in MD because the ZIP Code was "too close to DC". That you would refuse to send a legal product to a paying customer because they happen to reside near a state whose crime rate can more than likely be attributed to its refusal to allow its citizens the right to keep and bear arms is appalling. Considering a large portion of your product line is related in some way to the shooting sports, I find that you are, in fact, no friend to the gun community. Please remove me from your mailing list immediately. I refuse to patronize any establishment that further suppresses the rights and liberties of fellow gun owners. Thank You |
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I live in Annapolis, and I've had SG send me LOTS of ammo. I havnt ordered any in a couple years so maybe this is a new thing (?). I dont think were very close at all, we have PG county as a buffer.
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A big thanks to our out of state friends who have stood with us.
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MADNESS. Sounds like a good reason to use one of the dealers from ARFCOM... [cough]ammoman[/cough]
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Response received!
I asked about Brookeville 20833 (about 15 miles north of the DC line/Silver Spring), and this is what I got back:
hange FWIW, MidwayUSA wouldn't ship ammo to me because I live in Monkey County. |
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Since I started this mess, I'll attempt to summarize the issue as I see it and provide a suggested resolution. I'll cross-post this on the GD board. And thanks to all for your comments.
On Tuesday, 1/3, I placed an an online order with Sportsmans Guide (SG) for 1000 rounds of Wolf .223 62gr ammo. Later that morning I received an automated response acknowledging the order. Around noon I received another message: Thank you for your recent order #xxxx with us at The Guide. Unfortunately, the following items are restricted to your billing zip code, therefore we can not ship these items to you: 1000RDS .223 62GR FMJ AMMO. I replied, requesting further info on the restriction, to include,if possible, citation to any applicable federal or state statutes. SG replied Wednesday, 1/4, afternoon: Due to the various state, county and municipal laws that exist, we are not always able to comply with each individual guideline. Not all of the restrictions are based on laws on the books, but could be a company decision based on certain concerns. Things such as whether the state law suits pending involving gun owners, recent court decisions that may effect businesses like ours. Finally it may be that the states laws are so vague that they could be interpreted unfavorably in the event a court action was ever involved, and finally as a public held company, we are obligated to safeguard our stockholder's investments. I have spoken with our products department and they said that the major influence in our decision is that it is located too close to the District of Columbia. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause you. I replied Thursday evening, politely requesting a reevaluation of the issue. I haven't received a response. In a response to ARFCOM member TallNorton requesting confirmation of the restriction to the Annapolis zip code, SG also noted: Our lawyers have made a decision to place restrictions to protect our company. There have been too many lawsuits regarding the location, and it was a company decision to protect our investors, employees and stockholders. The problem: SG has chosen to restrict ammo sales to a location based solely on what they percieve as the proximity to the District of Columbia, a jurisdiction with very restrictive gun laws. SG does not restrict ammunition sales to the city of Baltimore, Maryland. I think SG has simply handled the issue poorly, first by conveying a subjective policy through their front-line customer service reps, and then not escalating the issue to management, who could properly analyze the issue and then communicate a coherent policy to their customers. Failing to confront the issue has cost them the loyalty and $$ of at least a few good customers. To SG: Send a letter something like this: Dear Sir: Thank you for your letter regarding our restriction on ammunition sales to the Annapolis, Maryland, area. At Sportsmans Guide we strive to provide the finest products and the best customer service available in the sporting goods business. We base our decision on where to sell firearms and ammunition on a few factors: We have an obligation to adhere to an exhaustive number of local, state, and federal laws applicable to our products, and specifically, laws governing the sale of firearms and ammunition. We also have an obligation to our many employees and shareholders to run a profitable business. In recent years lawsuits in a number of states, including the District of Columbia, have resulted in judgments which have bankrupted or nearly bankrupted the manufacturers and suppliers of firearms. Frankly, it keeps many of us awake at night wondering if we'll be next. While we wish to continue supplying these products to our many customers, we've made the business decision to restrict sales to locations we believe involve a great deal of risk to our business. Unfortunately, as you've noted, the restriction may be broader and involve locations such as Annapolis not originally intended to be included in the restriction to the District of Columbia. From our vantage of St. Paul, Minnesota, its often difficult to determine where to draw the line in areas throughout the United States, but I'm writing to let you know we are reviewing our policies to more finely map our restricted areas. We've updated our warning notice on our ammunition order page to clearly state our current restricted shipping zones. Sincerely, SG What we've got here is failure to communicate. (Cool Hand Luke, Paul Newman, 1967) |
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We also have an obligation to our many employees and shareholders to run a profitable business. In recent years lawsuits in a number of states, including the District of Columbia, have resulted in judgments which have bankrupted or nearly bankrupted the manufacturers and suppliers of firearms.
Yep. Just ask AIM. They along with two (or was it three) other places (Dan's was one of them) got hit hard by MASSACHUSETTS with the: you evil bastards are shipping to our doorstep and other people you have no control over are bringing it into our fair cities!!!!! Give us money!!! I hate local gov. |
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Yes, but if you're not IN their jurisdiction, they can't even FILE a valid criminal suit. If they threaten extortion CA style, tell them to suck the big one and keep the correspondence as evidence, and file criminal charges against the prosecutor for it. If they try for a civil suit, well, that's been the preferred tactic. All you can do is file a countersuit for frivolity. At the same time, I've often thought (even before it happened) that if everyone in the industry followed Ronnie Barrett's example, these things would get fixed fast. "Nope. We don't sell anything in your state. No guns. No knives. No ammo. No cleaning rods. Eat shit. Go fuck yourself. Goodbye." But there's always some fucking sellout like Bill Ruger who'll take short term money over long term market. |
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It is impossible to sue a business for not selling to you. The only way to get class action would be if they were not selling to a specific racial, ethnic or religious group, and even then it would be an uphill battle. I've refused to sell to drunks, idiots and the occasional race-baiter, just because I didn't want any connection to them when they inevitably fucked the dog. But there is no legal method you can use to force them to sell you ammo. Never happen. It is the right of any business to say, "I won't serve you. Thanks and goodbye." It's also our right to tell them they're idiots and spread the word. |
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Being too close to DC definitely sounds like a BS excuse. I have a tin of 7.62x39 on the way to 22201 right now and have never had problems ordering ammo from them. Could there be some county or city regulation against shipping ammo?
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I think they should lock off my zip code. I regularly drive the 600 miles from Indy to Ft Meade, which is a federal installation, and I often go through DC on the way. If I can, anyone can.
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Could you elaborate on this please? For my own edification, I'd like to know which CA city/county/state officials are doing this, because I'm not aware of any. Thanks. |
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Their response to my latest email:
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