open carry gone wrong 1/15/10?

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Posted: 1/16/2010 4:49:18 PM EDT

Just stating what I saw.

At approximatly 6:45pm at the Buffallo wild wings in central park Spotsy, I watched a fellow get removed from the restaurant for open carrying.

Family man, with large group; what looked to be pregnant sister in law, wife ,second sister, mother-in law, brother in law and 6 young children. (all assumptions on my part)

Had a 20 oz. beer in front of him. Watching the timing of the police officers it seems (my assumption) the waitstaff told restaurant management he was armed and had ordered a beer. Waitstaff served him the beer and watched him take his first large gulp. as soon as he put the beer down 2 local officers walked into the restaurant and very quickly walked up to him and asked him if the beer was his. he said yes but he had only drunk a little bit. Officers asked him to walk out with them, at first he refused but then they told him " do you really want to cause a scene?' Then walked out with them.

I Did not notice the make of the gun, but it was a full size semi-auto in an inside the belt holster at his rt. hip, only butt end of gun was visible, barrel was inside the pants.

It was about ten minutes before his spouse went otside to see what was happening. After another ten minutes the other male of their party went outside. After a few more minutes the older lady went outside. she came back into the restaurant within a minute or two and asked for the check while trying to get the rest of the family up and ready to leave.
I did not see if the police arrested the man or not,
That is all.

Posted: 1/16/2010 5:02:13 PM EDT

[#1]

Unless something has changed there is no law against drinking while carrying you just can not be intoxicated.

Posted: 1/16/2010 7:44:07 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Unless something has changed there is no law against drinking while carrying you just can not be intoxicated.

The way many Virginians make it sound is that you're considered intoxicated if you so much as SEE a beer.

Posted: 1/16/2010 8:56:53 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Unless something has changed there is no law against drinking while carrying you just can not be intoxicated.

True. If the police arrested him for anything like that, they were in the wrong and he's got grounds.

Did the establishment ask him to leave when the police arrived and he refused? In talking with the cops, did they decide he didn't comply with something appropriately or was disorderly and arrest him for that? From my experience, it seems the police can end just about any interaction with your arrest if they want to, unfortunately.

I hope it worked out ok for him and his family.

Posted: 1/16/2010 11:29:49 PM EDT

[#4]

Most (all?) BW3's have signs outside stating no firearms as they are an anti-gun company. Why any gun owner would patronize them in the first place is beyond me.

Posted: 1/17/2010 4:09:57 AM EDT

[#5]

Why would anyone carrying open or concealed even think about consuming alcohol? That's about the stupidest thing anyone could do. Against the law or not. Want to drink, leave the gun at home.

Posted: 1/17/2010 4:49:11 AM EDT

[#6]

Did you hear if the manager asked him to leave? If they asked him to leave and does not, then he can be changed with trespassing while open carrying on private property. Him getting the beer and sipping it maybe coincidence with the timing of the LEOs getting there?

Posted: 1/17/2010 5:04:57 AM EDT

[#7]

I FULLY support OC wherever it is allowed in the Commonwealth, but consuming alcohol while doing so is NOT a smart move.

And NO establishment that flaunts an anti-gun policy gets my money.

Period.

Ask my wife, who wants to go to Mikes American Grill right down the road from us.

I refuse because of the way they ejected a bunch of OCers some time ago.

Posted: 1/17/2010 5:14:51 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Most (all?) BW3's have signs outside stating no firearms as they are an anti-gun company. Why any gun owner would patronize them in the first place is beyond me.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj368/DrMark43/BWWgunban.jpg

I do not remember seeing a sign like this posted at the one in Gainesville. I remember one of the waitresses talking about a guy being in there that was carrying, so maybe BWW franchises and the owner can choose whether or not he puts that on the door vs it being a corporate policy? (They may indeed be an anti-gun company, I don't know)

Posted: 1/17/2010 5:33:06 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Most (all?) BW3's have signs outside stating no firearms as they are an anti-gun company. Why any gun owner would patronize them in the first place is beyond me.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj368/DrMark43/BWWgunban.jpg

Haven't seen such a sign at the Martinsburg site.

I looked, and unless it just went up, it's not there.

Posted: 1/17/2010 6:30:29 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I FULLY support OC wherever it is allowed in the Commonwealth, but consuming alcohol while doing so is NOT a smart move.

And NO establishment that flaunts an anti-gun policy gets my money.

Period.

Ask my wife, who wants to go to Mikes American Grill right down the road from us.

I refuse because of the way they ejected a bunch of OCers some time ago.

If you're sober enough to operate a vehicle, you're sober enough to operate a firearm. It's not killing any extra people in Utah or Washington state.

The irresponsible people that get trashed and who carry illegally are also the sort who'd drink and drive, so the outcome is the same.

Posted: 1/17/2010 6:32:12 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Why would anyone carrying open or concealed even think about consuming alcohol? That's about the stupidest think anyone could do. Against the law or not. Want to drink, leave the gun at home.

Agreed.

It's bad form.

Over on the OCDO forum, when we do an open carry event, anyone who decides that they need to drink is asked to not sit with us.

Posted: 1/17/2010 6:53:00 AM EDT

[#12]

Hell, I am a breast and leg man myself, so that leaves me out of those places that sell chicken arms. I think a lot of this comes down to common sense. I was born and raised in the Shenandoah Valley and from about 8 or 9 on, I hunted with my dad and a bunch of his buddies out of a Cabin that my dad owned. These guys could drink some alcohol and did, however there was one hard rule in the camp, you take a drink you do not leave the cabin with a gun, no matter what time of day. That was the first rule, the second rule was if you load a gun in the cabin, you pack up and go home. One of dads long time friends ignored that one day and shot a hole in the floor while loaded a 35 Remington. The guys told him to pack and leave, it was two years before he hunted there again. It has been over 50 years since I first hunted there and those are rules that I follow to this day. On big exception is that since all the home invasion roberies I now keep my trusty 1911 close by and loaded. When the grandkids come before they are allowed to enter the house, the gun goes in the vault. I had not one but two childhood friends die because someone left a loaded gun where they could get their hands on it. That was not a crime then, at least as far as I know, it is now.

It seems to me that if we go into a place open carring against their posted wishes we are playing into the anti gun groups hands. Like most of you, I do not patronize any place that has a sign like that posted or is known to be anti gun. Screw them, they don't need my business.

ANGMSG

Posted: 1/17/2010 7:50:21 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I FULLY support OC wherever it is allowed in the Commonwealth, but consuming alcohol while doing so is NOT a smart move.

And NO establishment that flaunts an anti-gun policy gets my money.

Period.

Ask my wife, who wants to go to Mikes American Grill right down the road from us.

I refuse because of the way they ejected a bunch of OCers some time ago.

If you're sober enough to operate a vehicle, you're sober enough to operate a firearm. It's not killing any extra people in Utah or Washington state.

That's got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen here yet. Equating the two as some kind of measuring stick for sobriety is a dangerous notion.

Is "sober enough" like being a "little bit pregnant" ? Either you are sober, or you are not and if not, you shouldn't be operating a firearm or a vehicle.

Posted: 1/17/2010 8:02:03 AM EDT

[#14]

whisper300,
Just as an fyi, central park is in the city not spotsy. What you saw were Fredericks burg police officers, not Spotsy deputy sheriff's. I just looked over the FLS and did not see any articles covering any arrests at BWW. we all know that if a guy with a gun was arrested, the FLS would be all over it.

I also think that if you carry you should not drink. While your may not be intoxicated or drunk, you give a bad perception to others around you giving other gun owners a bad rep and, your reflexes can be slowed down. In my opinion, it is just not a good idea.

Posted: 1/17/2010 9:17:10 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I FULLY support OC wherever it is allowed in the Commonwealth, but consuming alcohol while doing so is NOT a smart move.

And NO establishment that flaunts an anti-gun policy gets my money.

Period.

Ask my wife, who wants to go to Mikes American Grill right down the road from us.

I refuse because of the way they ejected a bunch of OCers some time ago.

If you're sober enough to operate a vehicle, you're sober enough to operate a firearm. It's not killing any extra people in Utah or Washington state.

The irresponsible people that get trashed and who carry illegally are also the sort who'd drink and drive, so the outcome is the same.

It is the PR perspective I am talking about.

Posted: 1/17/2010 10:35:09 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I FULLY support OC wherever it is allowed in the Commonwealth, but consuming alcohol while doing so is NOT a smart move.

And NO establishment that flaunts an anti-gun policy gets my money.

Period.

Ask my wife, who wants to go to Mikes American Grill right down the road from us.

I refuse because of the way they ejected a bunch of OCers some time ago.

If you're sober enough to operate a vehicle, you're sober enough to operate a firearm. It's not killing any extra people in Utah or Washington state.

That's got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen here yet. Equating the two as some kind of measuring stick for sobriety is a dangerous notion.

Is "sober enough" like being a "little bit pregnant" ? Either you are sober, or you are not and if not, you shouldn't be operating a firearm or a vehicle.

So the DWI standard should be 0.00?

It is not for a reason.

Posted: 1/17/2010 11:12:37 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
whisper300,
Just as an fyi, central park is in the city not spotsy. What you saw were Fredericks burg police officers, not Spotsy deputy sheriff's. I just looked over the FLS and did not see any articles covering any arrests at BWW. we all know that if a guy with a gun was arrested, the FLS would be all over it.

I also think that if you carry you should not drink. While your may not be intoxicated or drunk, you give a bad perception to others around you giving other gun owners a bad rep and, your reflexes can be slowed down. In my opinion, it is just not a good idea.

Rookie421, thank you for the clarification. As you all may have noted in my post I only tried to relate what i saw. I really tried to avoid posting too many assumptions. I wish that individual well as he seemed like nothing more harmful than man out with his whole family trying to have dinner.

For those that mentioned it, I never noticed anyone from the restaurant walk up to the gentelman and ask him to leave because he was armed. The first sign of trouble was when the officers walked up to him and asked him to go out with them.

Posted: 1/17/2010 11:40:00 AM EDT

[#18]

Not a problem. The city line down on that end is kind of funky. Spotsy mall is in the county but technically the jiffy lube on the right side of Rt. 3 is the last business in the city.

Keep in mind that we do not know why the police were there. It could be on a completely different matter. AS the OP stated, he just relayed what he saw, he does not have any of the background on the guy.

Posted: 1/17/2010 11:41:45 AM EDT

[#19]

guns and alcohol should never be combined. Period. End of story.

Posted: 1/17/2010 3:11:57 PM EDT

[#20]

Sounds like this guy was asking for trouble from the very beginning.

Imagine the lawsuit that would be sure to follow if that guy had gotten into an altercation involving a firearm while he was in there with a beer sitting in front of him.

Posted: 1/17/2010 3:31:44 PM EDT

[#21]

Strange... doesn't sound like anything that would warrant police involvement.

Open carriers that I know are pretty much unified in attitude on a couple of points:

(1) Private property is respected. If asked to leave, you leave without issue. You can follow up later with a letter or something to try to convince the business owner why his was a poor business decision.

(2) Drinking while carrying is poor form. Intent or not, you're an ambassador for gun owners.

Posted: 1/17/2010 3:34:57 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Most (all?) BW3's have signs outside stating no firearms as they are an anti-gun company. Why any gun owner would patronize them in the first place is beyond me.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj368/DrMark43/BWWgunban.jpg

Hey, that picture looks familiar!

I was attending a lunch there with a group from work when that picture was taken. That was the only time I've been to one of their restaurants. Based on their attitude toward gun owners, as well as their sub-par service, I have plenty of reason to stay away.

That's the Newport News BWW, by the way.

Posted: 1/17/2010 5:15:54 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Most (all?) BW3's have signs outside stating no firearms as they are an anti-gun company. Why any gun owner would patronize them in the first place is beyond me.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj368/DrMark43/BWWgunban.jpg

Hey, that picture looks familiar!

I was attending a lunch there with a group from work when that picture was taken. That was the only time I've been to one of their restaurants. Based on their attitude toward gun owners, as well as their sub-par service, I have plenty of reason to stay away.

That's the Newport News BWW, by the way.

I knew somebody from here took it but couldn't recall who. Good pic DrMark!

Posted: 1/17/2010 6:40:41 PM EDT

[#24]

Gardner v. Commonwealth, 195 Va. 945, 81 S.E.2d 614 (1954)

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF VIRGINIA
RICHMOND

JAMES E. GARDNER
v.
COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA.

Record No. 4205.
Decided: May 3, 1954.

"The General Assembly adopted its own definition of intoxication. It is as follows: "Any person who has drunk enough
alcoholic beverages to so affect his manner, disposition, speech, muscular movement, general appearance or behavior, as to be
apparent to observation, shall be deemed to be intoxicated."

Posted: 1/17/2010 7:03:39 PM EDT

[#25]

For those that think the employees/manager should have approached the guy in question........as much as I hate for people to call the police for every little reason, I don't think it's too far out of line in this case. Guy comes in wearing a gun. Guy orders beer. Guy drinks beer. A normal citizen/employee might be a tad apprehensive approaching a stranger in such a case.

Some people have to realize that not everyone loves the sight of a gun. It makes some folks nervous.

Posted: 1/17/2010 7:14:49 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
For those that think the employees/manager should have approached the guy in question........as much as I hate for people to call the police for every little reason, I don't think it's too far out of line in this case. Guy comes in wearing a gun. Guy orders beer. Guy drinks beer. A normal citizen/employee might be a tad apprehensive approaching a stranger in such a case.

Some people have to realize that not everyone loves the sight of a gun. It makes some folks nervous.

Hence my preference for carry of a concealed nature, but that's a whole different topic.

Posted: 1/17/2010 7:32:11 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For those that think the employees/manager should have approached the guy in question........as much as I hate for people to call the police for every little reason, I don't think it's too far out of line in this case. Guy comes in wearing a gun. Guy orders beer. Guy drinks beer. A normal citizen/employee might be a tad apprehensive approaching a stranger in such a case.

Some people have to realize that not everyone loves the sight of a gun. It makes some folks nervous.

Hence my preference for carry of a concealed nature, but that's a whole different topic.

I worry that some of the folks that open carry do it for the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor.......then when something like this happens they get to act surprised.
I'm right there with you on staying concealed.

Posted: 1/18/2010 2:20:18 AM EDT

[#28]

I know a lot of people are purists on this issue. I tend to follow the HomeyClause logic, here. I also follow Bulldog's. If I am carrying concealed, I might have 1 beer. It doesn't happen often because I think alcohol is expensive and tastes like hell. If open carrying, for PR's sake, no alcohol.

But it's certainly the guy's right to have A beer if he wants to, and he's apparently not breaking any laws. I can also understand how people would be cautious about it.

Posted: 1/18/2010 4:30:39 AM EDT

[#29]

Imagine you are OC'ing when you are out with the family eating. You are drinking a beer. Some armed dirtbag walks in & holds up the place, pointing a gun at peoples heads. You pull out your weapon, fire & kill the POS. Cops come & see a beer where you were sitting. They can smell alcohol on your breath. All this goes in their report. An anti-gun Commomwealths Attorney that want to make a name for theirself sees this in the police report & has you arrested, presents a good case, has an anti-gun jury & you go to jail because you were drinking when you killed someone. You spend 10's of thousands of dollars defending yourself to no avail. The the dirtbags next of kin hears you were drinking & slaps you with a civil suit & ends up with everything you have. Is all that worth having one beer while eating out? You decide. Me, I ain't drinking as long as I'm carrying a gun!!!!! I was taught long, long, long ago guns & alcohol don't mix!!!

Posted: 1/18/2010 4:59:28 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

For those that think the employees/manager should have approached the guy in question........as much as I hate for people to call the police for every little reason, I don't think it's too far out of line in this case. Guy comes in wearing a gun. Guy orders beer. Guy drinks beer. A normal citizen/employee might be a tad apprehensive approaching a stranger in such a case.

Some people have to realize that not everyone loves the sight of a gun. It makes some folks nervous.

However, none of that explains the police being involved as described.

Most of the police departments in Virginia, to my knowledge and experience, are run too ethically to have officers using their power outside of the law, and nothing in the OP suggested that a law was being broken.

By VA trespass, the police wouldn't be involved unless the man had refused to leave when requested. Until then, nothing for the police to do.

One sip of beer... no intoxication or disorderly behavior.

Maybe there's more to the story.

Posted: 1/18/2010 5:08:46 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Hence my preference for carry of a concealed nature, but that's a whole different topic.

I worry that some of the folks that open carry do it for the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor.......then when something like this happens they get to act surprised.

I'm right there with you on staying concealed.

Sure, everyone likes concealed carry, but the law's the law. I hope you're not suggesting that the guy in the story should have broken the law by concealing.

And about a 'cool' or 'look at me' factor, I haven't seen that. Based on the folks I know, people who open carry do so for the same reason that people concealed carry –– self defense.

Posted: 1/18/2010 9:05:16 AM EDT

[#32]

Heck with the law. I don't think anyone carrying has any business drinking at all. We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard so we don't give the anti's anymore ammunition.

Posted: 1/18/2010 10:06:24 AM EDT

[#33]

Add me to the list of people who think you shouldn't drink while carrying.

Posted: 1/18/2010 12:17:55 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Hence my preference for carry of a concealed nature, but that's a whole different topic.

I worry that some of the folks that open carry do it for the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor.......then when something like this happens they get to act surprised.
I'm right there with you on staying concealed.

Sure, everyone likes concealed carry, but the law's the law. I hope you're not suggesting that the guy in the story should have broken the law by concealing.

And about a 'cool' or 'look at me' factor, I haven't seen that. Based on the folks I know, people who open carry do so for the same reason that people concealed carry –– self defense.

Why don't you go ahead and surmise a few more things that I might have meant while you are at it, or just take what I said as it was written. Nothing in my post suggested anyone breaking the law. I was responding to another poster who stated he preferred concealed over open carry.

And the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor is there, wether or not you have ever seen it. The are mostly the same guys who are the stereotypical 'mall ninjas'.
The open carry for personal protection argument is a bit odd to me. I would much rather not let everyone around me, to include those who might do me or my family harm, know I have a gun.

You want to open carry, knock yourself out. But until everyone likes guns, you are going to run into difficulties at times.

All this is off topic of the original post now. In my view drinking while open carrying is asking for unwanted attention. You do it, expect someone to get jittery.

Posted: 1/18/2010 12:33:17 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For those that think the employees/manager should have approached the guy in question........as much as I hate for people to call the police for every little reason, I don't think it's too far out of line in this case. Guy comes in wearing a gun. Guy orders beer. Guy drinks beer. A normal citizen/employee might be a tad apprehensive approaching a stranger in such a case.

Some people have to realize that not everyone loves the sight of a gun. It makes some folks nervous.

However, none of that explains the police being involved as described.

Most of the police departments in Virginia, to my knowledge and experience, are run too ethically to have officers using their power outside of the law, and nothing in the OP suggested that a law was being broken.

By VA trespass, the police wouldn't be involved unless the man had refused to leave when requested. Until then, nothing for the police to do.

One sip of beer... no intoxication or disorderly behavior.

Maybe there's more to the story.

With your knowledge and experience of VA police departments, you should know better than most that the majority of departments will send an officer when a citizen calls in a complaint, no matter if a crime has been verified to have taken place.

There is something for the police to do. A citizen (most likely an employee/manager) called in a complaint about their perceived issue. I agree, not a true issue or obvious crime, but it was still an issue to them. The police respond, try and get both sides of the story. They make their determination from there as to if there is a violation of law or not. Making some assumptions here, but it seems like the business didn't want someone open carrying and drinking, and probably wanted the police present to facilitate a request for the guy to leave. True, it would be nice for the business to 'man up' and ask the guy to leave, but that is not the world we live in unfortunately.

Posted: 1/18/2010 1:30:16 PM EDT

[#36]

Remember some people are just plain scared when they see a gun. It is not uncommon for person to cal the police to talk with a person like this because they are scared to do it themselves. I know I have been called to Wal-mart (and several other places) a few times for a so called "weapons violation" . They inform me that a person is walking around with a gun and they want me to talk with them. I approach the person and explain what is happening and why I am there. I also explain that there is no violation of the law and to them know that I belive in our 2nd Amendment rights and our ability to open carry. If the store wants them to leave, then I explain to them the atttude of the store and their wishes (I do try to explain to the store that it is not against the law and it can actually make them safer in the long run). If they refuse to leave, then they get a friendly escort. I try not to embarrass anyone and will usually walk a distance away from them (unless they become obnoxious).

The store (any) have the right to refuse service. I cannot force them to accept what I feel is our rights. It is their property. I usually let the person know that now they understand the business they are dealing with it is up to them to decide if they want to continue to do business with them. I always encourage them to write the store owner and see if it is policy or just nervous employees.

That may be what happened. I do know by talking with BWW that it i company policy not to allow firearms in all their resturants (went through this myself with this company before). My letter to the company never got answered except to say that I could go in armed since I am a LEO. I refused to give them my business since they discriminate against CCW and open carry (I know many other LEO's who feel this way as well).

Posted: 1/18/2010 3:57:25 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Imagine you are OC'ing when you are out with the family eating. You are drinking a beer. Some armed dirtbag walks in & holds up the place, pointing a gun at peoples heads. You pull out your weapon, fire & kill the POS. Cops come & see a beer where you were sitting. They can smell alcohol on your breath. All this goes in their report. An anti-gun Commomwealths Attorney that want to make a name for theirself sees this in the police report & has you arrested, presents a good case, has an anti-gun jury & you go to jail because you were drinking when you killed someone. You spend 10's of thousands of dollars defending yourself to no avail. The the dirtbags next of kin hears you were drinking & slaps you with a civil suit & ends up with everything you have. Is all that worth having one beer while eating out? You decide. Me, I ain't drinking as long as I'm carrying a gun!!!!! I was taught long, long, long ago guns & alcohol don't mix!!!

Exactly!

Posted: 1/18/2010 3:58:40 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Hence my preference for carry of a concealed nature, but that's a whole different topic.

I worry that some of the folks that open carry do it for the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor.......then when something like this happens they get to act surprised.

I'm right there with you on staying concealed.

Sure, everyone likes concealed carry, but the law's the law. I hope you're not suggesting that the guy in the story should have broken the law by concealing.

And about a 'cool' or 'look at me' factor, I haven't seen that. Based on the folks I know, people who open carry do so for the same reason that people concealed carry –– self defense.

Why don't you go ahead and surmise a few more things that I might have meant while you are at it, or just take what I said as it was written. Nothing in my post suggested anyone breaking the law. I was responding to another poster who stated he preferred concealed over open carry.

And the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor is there, wether or not you have ever seen it. The are mostly the same guys who are the stereotypical 'mall ninjas'.

The open carry for personal protection argument is a bit odd to me. I would much rather not let everyone around me, to include those who might do me or my family harm, know I have a gun.

You want to open carry, knock yourself out. But until everyone likes guns, you are going to run into difficulties at times.

All this is off topic of the original post now. In my view drinking while open carrying is asking for unwanted attention. You do it, expect someone to get jittery.

What you've written? In a thread about open carry in a restaurant, you express your preference for "staying concealed." Perhaps you're new to VA, but staying concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol is illegal.

I prefer carrying concealed to open (for the reasons you've mentioned), but until the law changes back, untucking the shirt from over the pistol to expose it when entering a restaurant remains necessary for those who carry for personal protection. That means the legal choice for personal protection in restaurants is open carry - I'm sorry that seems odd to you.

I agree about drinking while open carrying, or concealed for that manner. I think it's a bad choice.

Posted: 1/18/2010 4:10:14 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

For those that think the employees/manager should have approached the guy in question........as much as I hate for people to call the police for every little reason, I don't think it's too far out of line in this case. Guy comes in wearing a gun. Guy orders beer. Guy drinks beer. A normal citizen/employee might be a tad apprehensive approaching a stranger in such a case.

Some people have to realize that not everyone loves the sight of a gun. It makes some folks nervous.

However, none of that explains the police being involved as described.

Most of the police departments in Virginia, to my knowledge and experience, are run too ethically to have officers using their power outside of the law, and nothing in the OP suggested that a law was being broken.

By VA trespass, the police wouldn't be involved unless the man had refused to leave when requested. Until then, nothing for the police to do.

One sip of beer... no intoxication or disorderly behavior.

Maybe there's more to the story.

With your knowledge and experience of VA police departments, you should know better than most that the majority of departments will send an officer when a citizen calls in a complaint, no matter if a crime has been verified to have taken place.

There is something for the police to do. A citizen (most likely an employee/manager) called in a complaint about their perceived issue. I agree, not a true issue or obvious crime, but it was still an issue to them. The police respond, try and get both sides of the story. They make their determination from there as to if there is a violation of law or not. Making some assumptions here, but it seems like the business didn't want someone open carrying and drinking, and probably wanted the police present to facilitate a request for the guy to leave. True, it would be nice for the business to 'man up' and ask the guy to leave, but that is not the world we live in unfortunately.

Of course the police will come and talk to folks. I also think your assumptions are good - there's a good chance that's what happened. IMO, however, it's not proper for the management to use the police to do their job. Police aren't store-employed rent-a cops. I would hope the officer would tell the management that they'd intervene if the customer refused management's request to leave. Like you said, though, we don't live in an ideal world.

Posted: 1/18/2010 4:50:57 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Hence my preference for carry of a concealed nature, but that's a whole different topic.

I worry that some of the folks that open carry do it for the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor.......then when something like this happens they get to act surprised.
I'm right there with you on staying concealed.

Sure, everyone likes concealed carry, but the law's the law. I hope you're not suggesting that the guy in the story should have broken the law by concealing.

And about a 'cool' or 'look at me' factor, I haven't seen that. Based on the folks I know, people who open carry do so for the same reason that people concealed carry –– self defense.

Why don't you go ahead and surmise a few more things that I might have meant while you are at it, or just take what I said as it was written. Nothing in my post suggested anyone breaking the law. I was responding to another poster who stated he preferred concealed over open carry.

And the 'cool' or 'look at me' factor is there, wether or not you have ever seen it. The are mostly the same guys who are the stereotypical 'mall ninjas'.
The open carry for personal protection argument is a bit odd to me. I would much rather not let everyone around me, to include those who might do me or my family harm, know I have a gun.

You want to open carry, knock yourself out. But until everyone likes guns, you are going to run into difficulties at times.

All this is off topic of the original post now. In my view drinking while open carrying is asking for unwanted attention. You do it, expect someone to get jittery.

What you've written? In a thread about open carry in a restaurant, you express your preference for "staying concealed." Perhaps you're new to VA, but staying concealed in a restaurant that serves alcohol is illegal.

I prefer carrying concealed to open (for the reasons you've mentioned), but until the law changes back, untucking the shirt from over the pistol to expose it when entering a restaurant remains necessary for those who carry for personal protection. That means the legal choice for personal protection in restaurants is open carry - I'm sorry that seems odd to you.

I agree about drinking while open carrying, or concealed for that manner. I think it's a bad choice.

The thread might have been about open carry in a rest. serving alcohol, but the poster I was responding to was just mentioning his preference for carrying concealed over open carry. My reply was just agreeing with him. No one mentioned carrying concealed in a restuarant except you.

I don't believe I said open carry was odd. I do think it is odd to want to carry a firearm for protection, but then put yourself in the trick bag by consuming alcohol while doing so. You might not be legally 'under the influence' after a single beer, but you do have alcohol in your system, which is going to play a huge part in any legal proceedings should they arise.

And I maintain that there are persons who do the open carry thing just for the wow factor. Just because those you know don't open carry for that reason doesn't mean it isn't happening.

As far as being new to Va....nope lived here all my life and am well aware of the Code of Virginia. I happen to be one of those exempted from the worry over carrying concealed in a restuarant so I think I probably have a pretty decent handle on what actually happens in situations just as described by the OP.

Posted: 1/18/2010 5:03:20 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
and ask the guy to leave, but that is not the world we live in unfortunately.

Of course the police will come and talk to folks. I also think your assumptions are good - there's a good chance that's what happened. IMO, however, it's not proper for the management to use the police to do their job. Police aren't store-employed rent-a cops. I would hope the officer would tell the management that they'd intervene if the customer refused management's request to leave. Like you said, though, we don't live in an ideal world.

It might not be proper in your mind, but you know what, I don't have a big problem in this case with the management/employee calling the police. I don't expect some waitress making $3.00 an hour or some college kid/manager making a little more than that to possibly have a confrontation with an armed subject. Because that is just what the guy drinking the beer while open carrying is. And they are gonna ask him to leave, which in all probability he is not going to be pleased with.

So you have these factors, along with the aforementioned gun phobia that a whole lot of folks have, all lead to having a recognized authority figure enter into the situation to deal with it professionally and courteously is probably the best course of action. In the best case scenario, no ones rights get trampled on and information is successfully traded between all parties.

I can tell you that what the police are intended for and what they are required to do from day to day are two way different things. This situation is way on the far side of being out of the ordinary.

Posted: 1/18/2010 5:15:55 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I can tell you that what the police are intended for and what they are required to do from day to day are two way different things.

Holy crap isn't that true. Minor thread jack. I was in the FD in college and remember getting 911 calls for people who left their stove on, sink running, needing a ride to the hospital and that's the stuff I was told about. I'm sure the LEOs deal with all sorts of stuff that actually might make the responding to a man with a gun in a restaurant call exciting.

I'm hoping someone from City of Fredericksburg PD can comment or allude to what may have happened instead of us speculating.

Posted: 1/19/2010 5:21:15 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Imagine you are OC'ing when you are out with the family eating. You are drinking a beer. Some armed dirtbag walks in & holds up the place, pointing a gun at peoples heads. You pull out your weapon, fire & kill the POS. Cops come & see a beer where you were sitting. They can smell alcohol on your breath. All this goes in their report. An anti-gun Commomwealths Attorney that want to make a name for theirself sees this in the police report & has you arrested, presents a good case, has an anti-gun jury & you go to jail because you were drinking when you killed someone. You spend 10's of thousands of dollars defending yourself to no avail. The the dirtbags next of kin hears you were drinking & slaps you with a civil suit & ends up with everything you have. Is all that worth having one beer while eating out? You decide. Me, I ain't drinking as long as I'm carrying a gun!!!!! I was taught long, long, long ago guns & alcohol don't mix!!!

I guess the flip side of this is that you go out and want to literally have one 10 oz beer (we all need to relax occasionally), so you leave your sidearm in your vehicle. Armed dirtbag walks in and starts offing people, and eventually works his way to your family. Well, at least you don't have to worry about civil suits, and you'll be able to comfort yourself for the rest of your life with the fact that you didn't offend anyone by having a firearm accessible while sipping your beer.

Carrying and drinking don't mix, and I'm not advocating it. Call it paranoid, but we usually try to have a designated driver/shooter in our group if we go out, and they're the only one that carries. I do think it's a stretch, though, to say that your life and your ability to intercede in any situation is 100% gone from a sip of beer. As stated above, there's a reason the intox level is not 0.00001%. I agree - in public, don't mix the two. I think the issue becomes a bit stickier when you're at home and hear something go bump. When I lived in a very rural environment, there is no way I would go unarmed while outside working just because I had a beer on my own property.

The same logic above (fear of charges and lawsuits) could drive us all to carry pink pistols with a name like "fluffy bunny" and nothing but watered-down FMJs in our 4 round magazine. We would, of course, reach for fluffy bunny instead of our effective shotgun or AR in the event of a home invasion because those would look bad in court

.

Posted: 1/19/2010 5:25:08 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Most (all?) BW3's have signs outside stating no firearms as they are an anti-gun company. Why any gun owner would patronize them in the first place is beyond me.

I haven't ever seen one of those signs, and open carry in BW3 just about every week. I don't know if the company as a whole is anti-gun, or if certain franchise owners are. They haven't had a problem with me, though, over the last year. Then again, I go at lunch when it's really empty and never drink of course.

Posted: 1/19/2010 12:58:48 PM EDT

[#45]

Is "sober enough" like being a "little bit pregnant" ? Either you are sober, or you are not and if not, you shouldn't be operating a firearm or a vehicle.

I despair at the absolutist nature of that statement.

You do realize that prohibition was the idea of the progressive movement? It's a shame the ugly gang warfare it spawned inspired laws that curtailed our 2nd Amendment rights.

Isn't it odd that we still have the gang warfare and the alcohol?

I am not suggesting that people over indulge and then do dangerous things, so don't bother attacking me with some strawman argument about safety.

G

Posted: 1/19/2010 2:33:57 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Is "sober enough" like being a "little bit pregnant" ? Either you are sober, or you are not and if not, you shouldn't be operating a firearm or a vehicle.

I despair at the absolutist nature of that statement.

G

Enjoy your despair.

Posted: 1/19/2010 4:35:09 PM EDT

[#47]

I appreciate your advice.

G

Posted: 1/19/2010 6:15:20 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Gardner v. Commonwealth, 195 Va. 945, 81 S.E.2d 614 (1954)

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF VIRGINIA
RICHMOND

JAMES E. GARDNER
v.
COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA.

Record No. 4205.
Decided: May 3, 1954.

"The General Assembly adopted its own definition of intoxication. It is as follows: "Any person who has drunk enough
alcoholic beverages to so affect his manner, disposition, speech, muscular movement, general appearance or behavior, as to be
apparent to observation, shall be deemed to be intoxicated."

This means that I am intoxicated every Saturday morning until I decide to change out of my house pants.

It also means that I can down 5 pints of Dominion Lager and be considered sober.

WTF, over.

Posted: 1/19/2010 6:19:00 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I FULLY support OC wherever it is allowed in the Commonwealth, but consuming alcohol while doing so is NOT a smart move.

And NO establishment that flaunts an anti-gun policy gets my money.

Period.

Ask my wife, who wants to go to Mikes American Grill right down the road from us.

I refuse because of the way they ejected a bunch of OCers some time ago.

If you're sober enough to operate a vehicle, you're sober enough to operate a firearm. It's not killing any extra people in Utah or Washington state.

The irresponsible people that get trashed and who carry illegally are also the sort who'd drink and drive, so the outcome is the same.

It is the PR perspective I am talking about.

Agreed. Bad PR when open carrying. CC and a beer happens all the time in Washington state though, and seriously, there are no incidents of note that I am aware of. I have not noted a lower than average number of irresponsible people here, so I wonder why Virginians are expected to go nuts at the sight of a beer or something. Just sayin'.

Posted: 1/19/2010 6:21:35 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Imagine you are OC'ing when you are out with the family eating. You are drinking a beer. Some armed dirtbag walks in & holds up the place, pointing a gun at peoples heads. You pull out your weapon, fire & kill the POS. Cops come & see a beer where you were sitting. They can smell alcohol on your breath. All this goes in their report. An anti-gun Commomwealths Attorney that want to make a name for theirself sees this in the police report & has you arrested, presents a good case, has an anti-gun jury & you go to jail because you were drinking when you killed someone. You spend 10's of thousands of dollars defending yourself to no avail. The the dirtbags next of kin hears you were drinking & slaps you with a civil suit & ends up with everything you have. Is all that worth having one beer while eating out? You decide. Me, I ain't drinking as long as I'm carrying a gun!!!!! I was taught long, long, long ago guns & alcohol don't mix!!!

Three words: Field sobriety test.

I realize that yes, it'll be expensive. But no more than any other self defense case with a firearm. You're alive and your loved ones are alive, which is what you got in trade.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - open carry gone wrong 1/15/10?

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