Thank you to everyone who responded with information. I have now attended the 4 day defensive handgun and 2 day practical rifle.

Eta: handgun skill builder Dec 4 - DG'd.  3 points shy of perfect :)

I'll be freewriting the information as time permits with organization/formatting in time.

Helpful information provided by responses (thank you all who shared wisdom!) and experience:

Day layout and what to expect. The lectures about moral/ethical/legal ramifications, decision process, situational awareness were ok. Good info. They sneak in some pretty heavy pressure salesmanship on legal representation, safes, equipment etc. I went to the lectures the first time around, but didn't the second time.

Day 1:
06:30 Gates open. There will be a line, arrive early with some music or something to read. You get better parking and no wait at weapons check. Also your choice of range (more about this later). Final gear prep, Pro Shop gear browsing (40% markup over retail, if you have membership points or the discount its about retail pricing).
08:00 Main Hall - morning greeting, information and Q/A session.
08:30 Range. Starts out with greeting, introduction, lecture then shooting. Begins with basic run through on safety, firearms nomenclature, basic operation and reiteration of safety importance. Lecture put into practice at the line. Continued lecture, demonstration and experience with thoracic cavity and head shot placement.
12:30 Break for lunch and lectures in the main hall. Varying lectures that touch on moral, ethical and legal decisions/ramifications surrounding shooting situations.
13:45 Range - OPTIONAL dry practice. Great time to investigate your form and ask questions. Higher ratio of coach/student allowing for more questions/direction.
14:15 Range - Back and ready to resume range instruction/lecture/shooting. Further detail about shot placement, trigger discipline with reset/follow through, controlled pair. Start reinforcing tactical reloads, failure types (jam vs stoppage) and how to correct them,
16:50 Range time ends, stow equipment in vehicle.
17:00 Main Hall, additional lecture.
18:00 Lecture ends.

Day 2:
07:15 Gates open. Be a little early to get in quick and a good parking spot. Or about 07:25 and the line will be diminished.
07:45 OPTIONAL dry practice.
08:00 Seated with gear ready, morning lecture and shooting. Zeroing of firearm. More in depth lecture on stoppages, follow up shots, situational awareness, checking entire surrounding for threats, final check for threats. Reinforce ready positions and proper presentations, start introduction and reinforce concealed garment interaction and technique (pistol). Increased volume or shooting with real time reinforcement of good technique and correction of bad habits. Start to urge speed if groups are small to find a good balance of sped vs accuracy.
12:30 break for lunch and varied lectures.
1:45 OPTIONAL dry practice.
14:15 Seated with gear ready. Resume lecture and shooting. Pace is quickened, more shooting and dynamic mixture of techniques taught to this point. Pistol focused on failures drills end of day. Rifle had 100 yard shooting in any position (standing, kneeling/sitting or prone). Additional shooting at 15,25,50 in high ready, ready and low ready (they call it field ready). Rifle had some move/shoot from cover at 50 yards on ipsc metal targets with 5" metal swinger center. Shoot locations around cover, standing kneeling prone standing kneeling prone under time and accuracy pressure. 1 shot per position on target until 6 hits are made. Fun drill, look forward to doing that and similar on my own time.
16:50 Range time ends, stow equipment.
17:00 Main hall, additional lecture.
18:00 Lecture ends.



Good information:
4 Day Defensive Handgun:

Range: Request range 1D or 1E. They face north and you will end up in the shade during lecture the entire day. 1A, 1B and 1C face east - welcome to the sun. Not really an issue while shooting, but during the lecture/class info siitting in direct sun light for a half hour/hour sucks.

Equipment:
Holster: Blade Tech - recommended by Front Sight and works well. The classic is more expensive and worth the money. The Revolution model is rough/stiff making holstering/unholstering annoying. Ultimately any holster that doesn't collapse and can be holstered/drawn 1 handed will work. No black hawk SERPA or retention type. If that's all you have they will tape or lodge the retention mechanism open/inert.
3 magazines minimum
2 magazine pouches/holders
1 dump pouch (maxpedition)
Sturdy belt.


2 Day Practical Rifle:

Firearms:
I prefer the AR15. If you like other platforms the training is universal. There were Mini 14's, Cetme's, Tavors, FALs, and a variety of other platforms. Do note, all semi automatic. They do allow bolt action/lever action. When the lecture of firearms is under way the instructor demonstrates all platforms represented by students, their manipulation and insight about the benefits/drawbacks.

Equipment:
A good sling and sling attachment.
3 magazines minimum
2 magazine pouches/holders
1 dump pouch (maxpedition)
Sturdy belt.

More as time permits.

Thanks again to everyone for responding with information and experience. Without a doubt my experience was improved knowing what to expect and good gear tips. Drop pouch was a life saver, half the class had them by day 2 after seeing my group using them.

I'm a member at FS, been up there about 20 times. I'll answer any questions as best I can.

I've also trained with Gabe Suarez and Scott Reitz, so I do have some basis for comparison.

The training is valid. It's a Weaver school, but if you insist on shooting Iso most of the instructors* will leave you alone as long as you're getting your hits.

They do a particularly good job, I think, with people who are getting their first formal instruction. The flip side to that is that the basic class, which you must take, starts off very basic indeed - "This is your trigger. This is your magazine release." The first day can move very slowly.

It's unquestionably the bast value in firearms training. You can buy a lifetime membership for the cost of a one-day class from most big-name instructors.

IMO the instruction has gotten somewhat worse as the facilities have improved. They've had to dumb it down some, do away with some more complicated drills, because students just weren't up to them, and because students (actually "members," remember, so their opinions have to be considered) complained that things were too difficult, or too physical. That's why I began seeking instruction elsewhere.

In all, though, I consider the (quite modest) cost of my membership about the best money I've ever spent.

Hope that helps.



*The biggest fault with FS, I think, isn't the marketing or the owner (on whom BTW I have never laid eyes). It's that it's gotten so busy up there - more than a thousand students some weekends - that they need a whole lot of instructors, and the quality varies widely. They try to mitigate this with a rigid curriculum,

That's what I was looking for. Just wanted know if it was worth the time to do. I found a decent source for their top tier life memberships very affordable.

Getting a group of friends and family to go all together. Make some good memories and get a baseline for training established as not all are firearm proficient.

A little disappointed to hear the quality has fallen. I was thinking about pursuing the advanced and master level courses. Do you feel that would be worth pursuing with your experience of FS?

FS's Advanced Tactical Handgun consists of one-handed (strong and support) shooting and manipulation, to include malfunction drills; distance shooting with handgun; multiple target drills; and a more elaborate shoot house run. At least, that's what it was last time I took it, @ a year and a half ago. The class used to include some fantastic scenario training, but they removed that either because the students weren't safe, or because they couldn't get the large number of students through them quickly enough. (I've gotten both explanations.) It's a good class, it just used to be better.

You have to shoot to their "distinguished" level in the basic classes before you can take the advanced classes. That's pretty easy with handgun, not so easy with rifle and damned hard with shotgun. Some people need multiple classes to manage it. (I did it second time with pistol, fifth time with rifle, I probably won't ever manage it with the shotty, just don't care that much.)

I have no experience with the "Master prep" classes. I can't imagine actually telling someone "I'm a Handgun Combat Master." Which is not to belittle the achievement, it's a very very difficult thing to do, but they really ought to call it something different.

The bottom line for me is it's cheap, it's close, and the training hasn't let me down when training elsewhere. I don't know that I'd advise people on the East Coast to fly in for it, but for locals I think it's a no-brainer.

I'm a lifetime member of Front Sight but haven't made it out there yet.  I plan to take the 4 day Defensive Handgun class in Oct or November.  I am waiting for the cooler weather :)

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of holster I'm supposed to get and where to get it.  I think I have everything else I need for the class.

You must use a belt-mounted hip holster (no cross-draw or appendix) that allows easy re-holstering, i.e. the holster must not collapse when the gun is drawn. IWB is allowed (or was, last time I was there; call them if you're not sure).

Holsters that use a fingertip retention a la the BLACKHAWK! SERPA are not allowed, though I've seen plenty of them used, with something stuffed into the retention mechanism to jam it open.

I've used Safariland, Blade-Tech and Uncle Mike's kydex OWB holsters at FS with no problems.

What ended up being your favorite holster and why? I've been looking at blade tech but am hoping to glean off the experience of others to avoid the cost of upgrades as I try different things. One of the solutions I have been eyeing is the gcode rti:

gcode rti

Did you setup a "battle belt" with holster, mags, etc in place that you just clip on over your clothes?

I've taken the 4-day defensive handgun class about 4 times, took the 2-day shotgun back in 06, have attended the AR and Glock armorers courses and my girlfriend (I gave her a membership) and I also took the empty hand and edged weapons classes this summer.  I bought into a Diamond membership a few years ago, but had previously trained on certificates which were affordable, but not like a lifetime membership.
















 

My favorite holster for training? I don't think it matters much, frankly. I'm in my 40s and not very flexible (wasn't in my 20s either) so something with a bit of drop is faster for me, though not very realistic in terms of how I actually carry, which anyway most of the time is an M&P in a Dale Fricke Seraphim, appendix. (Pat Rogers has interesting things to say, btw, about attending class with your "real-world" gear)

I'm sure the rig you linked to would work very well.

I've never used a war belt. I did use a shoulder bag in a Suarez class, and it worked well.

There's a guy on
ARFCOM that's contacted me several times via my EE ads asking me if I
want to trade whatever item it is that I'm selling at the time for a FS
membership. He usually offers to trade
for an all-inclusive lifetime Diamond membership, which are $15K (I think). If I remember correctly, he's even offered to trade an all-inclusive lifetime Ambassador membership that goes for $25K. His username is "frontsightambassador"
or something like that (I actually have an email from him w/his email
address). He wanted to trade a membership for a set of Noveske BUIS that
I was selling for $235 at the time.. It made no sense to me that he
would want to trade a $15K+ membership for a set of $235.00 BUIS, so I asked
him if he was pulling my leg, or what.  From what I recall, he said he bought several of them
when they first started selling the memberships, and says he can prove that they're legit.... I can give you his email address if you want to check it
out. If it's legit, and you can buy one from him dirt cheap, or trade him for something (I usually sell Noveske stuff, so that's what it looks like he's into) that would be a hell of a deal.





If I actually had
time to go, I would have checked it out myself. The last time he emailed me was a couple weeks ago to see if I would trade my Noveske .300 BLK upper ($1650.00 item), but it was via Armslist, so I don't think he knew it was me selling it otherwise he probably wouldn't have emailed me since he knows I'm not interested... The email had a FS video in it, and the usual offer to trade for an all-inclusive lifetime Diamond membership. Anyway, let me know if you want his email, and I'll shoot you a message.

 
 

There are plenty of FS members that bought extra memberships.  Diamond memberships for around $250 can be found pretty easily.  Some people want a little less, some a little more.  Just have to find a member who has some to sell.  It's completely legit and easy to do.  Set up a user account on their website, then the member can transfer the membership to that account.  I've done this for my dad, brother, girlfriend, friends and others.  Piece of cake and literally only takes a few minutes start to finish.

What kind of aiming technique do they teach for sight alignment??

#2












Which isn't enough characters for this site, apparently, so here you go, ARFCOM. Geez...

Cool deal, going to hit the range tomorrow and get my stuff zeroed.

John,

They teach Sight Image 2.

As for Holsters...I too agree with ws6_keith.

My Favorite Holster for Fsite is blade-Tech OWB w/TekLok.

One of the reasons why the blade-tech works well for me is for the skills test administered on 4day defensive handgun, and skill builder.  (No skills test on 2 day).
It's a simple and fast holster to draw from, and offers comfort for the WHOLE day.

You can wear a war Belt and have everything clipped on the belt for convenience...
However a good stiff belt w/2 mag pouches + small dump pouch (maxpedition rolly poly) + holster is all you need.
The reason for the dump pouch is pure convenience.  Carry a few extra rounds in the pouch and then you can reload your mag's while your on the line coaching.
Beats walking back and forth to the rest area to the firing line.

I think the 2 day is a great way to warm people up to defensive handgun if they have little experience.
It's enough to learn some basic skills...and not too overwhelming.

The best class IMO is the skill builder.   A lot less lectures...a Lot more shooting.

As for diamond memberships to be found...
I'm sure keith and others who are members have plenty of extra memberships to sell at a reasonable cost.
Most of us upgraded our memberships (I went from a dont tread on me, to a diamond, to an ambassador).  During those upgrades we acquired some additional memberships to be sold/traded/gifted.

Hope this helps,
Chris

I took the 4-day shotgun course out there, and aside from the asinine 'inspection' of your firearm and ammo the first day and how reatardedly slow it progresses at times, I left feeling significantly more confident with my 870 pump shotgun than I did before I took the course.  

My main beef with FS is this:
you have to pay a background check fee ($50) every year you want to take a course if you are a lifetime member.  Second, to progress on to more advanced courses you must have the DG cert from the previous course.  That, as a previous poster has said, has largely arbitrary and difficult standards to meet.  I believe the maintain the artificially high barrier for entry due to them making more profit on the entry level courses and lacking the instructors or facilities to run the higher level courses more frequently.  Also, your classes 'expire'.  To that end, even though I didn't get DG in my 4-day shotgun course, since it has been over 24 months since I took the course, I'd have to take it again, get DG, and then could be considered for a higher course.  Huge pain in the ass in that regard.  I've not taken their handgun course, but having taken the Magpul Dynamics advance handgun course with Travis Haley before, I can only imagine that I would want to suck-start my G17 by lunch on the first day.  

That said, it is a good beginner curriculum and the memberships are reasonable and are a damn good deal for locals.   I have a few extra diamond memberships; if you need one, PM me.

Is this 24 month expiration in effect for all courses? I've never heard of this before.

For the skill builder courses, I believe, it is the policy.  Since I didn't DG in the 4-day, I could go back through a 2-day skill builder but only if I had completed the 4-day shotgun course in the last 2 years.

From the page:
"Prerequisite Class(s): Prior to attending this course you must have attended and completed a Two or Four Day Tactical Shotgun course within the last 24 months."

Thanks for all of the info guys. I've been in the shooting sports for 20 years, do 3 gun etc. I shot a lot with my pops from childhood on and throughout the scouting program on the way to eagle. I stay involved and help with the scouting marksmanship program along with NRA certifications.

I wanted to fill in any basic gaps and really look forward to advancing to the higher level classes. Ideally to brush up and fill in the foundation and build on it from there.

It sounds like I'll be quite bored for some of the time but rounds down range is a good thing. I'm also getting some novice shooters involved and thought it would be fun to go as a group.

I ended up getting blade tech holsters for my p226 and sig1911 in no light and with light flavors. Will probably get HK USP tactical holsters as well.

I'll be doing a battle belt as well, which will be handy for 3 gun and this class it sounds like.

Any additional info or tips is greatly appreciated to alleviate issues and help curb the FS learning curve. The website is poorly organized and a knowledgeable been there done that perspective helps a lot.

ETA: thanks for all of the offers for memberships. I bought an Ambassador 10 pack and sold the spares to friends/family. Ended up with the guardian since more people locally were interested so I have a ton of diamond memberships.

Hurry up dude.  My girl and I are going to the 4-day handgun on the 17th-20th.  :)



 

I took the 4 day defensive handgun course and I loved it. I have been around guns since I was a little kid, but never had any actual training. I learned a lot and my aim improved dramatically. I missed the DG by 2 points, but no one in my class got it. Having a good holster is a must, but it sounds like you have that covered already. The lady that was my training partner had a horrible holster and every time she went to holster her gun, she would aim her handgun backwards towards me. My dad did not like that, so he pulled one of the instructors over, explained that he didn't wan't that lady shooting his son. They talked to her and the next day she had a new, much better holster. She loved having her finger on the trigger at all times.

Practice the malfunctions for about 30 minutes to an hour after the class. A lot of people had problems getting it done in the time frame and lost a lot of points on the test. Practice practice practice. I ace'd the malfunctions part and messed up when it came to drawing from concealment at longer distances under a time constraint.

There were a lot of people not familiar with guns in my class, so at points it would drag with lots of questions and explaining the same thing multiple times. The first day was a little boring, but once you get shooting, it's all fun. I was surprised at the amount of people from California in my class. My Dad and I were the only ones with M&P's as well, lots of 1911's (probably California complaint thing). A couple of times throughout the class, the instructors would bring other students over to my Dad and I to shoot our guns to see if it was easier to shoot. Everyone loved the M&P's. M&P's also have what the instructors called the "birthday bump" which automatically slides the slide forward when you insert the mag with enough force, saving a step in the process.

Invest in an UpLULA if you don't already have one, it will save your thumbs. I think they sell them in the shop there, but at twice the normal price (like everything else at the shop).

Also, expect a line when going in. They have the gates closed until a certain time and the cars build up. I live in Mountains Edge, which is probably closer than anywhere else in Vegas, but my Dad brought his trailer out and we camped in the dirt lot right outside the gates, so we just walked in every morning.

Have fun, be safe, and watch out for the newbies with their finger on the trigger. I don't know how many times I had to yell "FINGER!" at my training partner, it had to be 200+ times.

Thanks everyone for the info, it made my experience much better having a dump pouch and knowing what to expect.

I scored 1 point short of DG and got 2nd in man on man. 4 people DG'd in my class and 2 were 1 point short. They said it was the most they had ever had in 1 class.

It was a lot of fun, I got a lot faster and more accurate.

I am interested in a possible membership, what's the best way to get in touch with a member who has a few extra?

I have a few extra

We had 6 DGs in a class of 34 this past September I found that the dry firing helped a lot and I try to do it often.

They got me with the "you're a great class bit lol at least they're upbeat I guess

Who were the instructors in your class?

My GF and I went through a 4-day defensive handgun last weekend.  She
really had a good time and learned a bunch.  Without points off for the
lates, she would have graduated...considering she's barely ever handled a
pistol before, this was great!  I DG'd it again.



There were 11
DG's in our class, including one guy that did it support side!  I have
decided that I will shoot it support side next time.



Our RO was Terry Wong, with Jud Holtan instructing as well.  Jud was also our RO for the empty hand and edged weapons classes this summer.

If you go into Pahrump,  eat at El Jefe's.  
It's a Mexican restaurant with a scorpion on the sign.  
If you order the Tres Sabores,  make sure you ask for extra corn tortillas.  
Good stuff.

Best,
JBR

Wayne, dusty, Matt and a few others that rotated in and out.

I'm now soliciting information on the practical rifle, which I'll be taking Nov 21.

Interested in course of fire, techniques taught and recommended gear. Highly interested in "pro-tips" from those who have been there done that!

Those that have done FS and Appleseed I'm interested to know how they compare/transfer.

Thanks to everyone for the info thus far, please keep it coming!

Practical Rifle is also Weaver-based. Three readies - High Ready, Ready and Field Ready - are taught and used. Offhand/supported kneeling/sitting/squat and prone are used as well. The course is more carbine-oriented, but any centerfire rifle will work just fine. Much of the handgun course technique will be reflected in the class, just more specific to the weapons used. The skills test on day 4 is a bit more difficult than the one in handgun.

Copy that, I have options for the rifle to use.

All AR platform in 5.56

11.5" 1-4x22 scope with buis
16" 1-4x22 scope with buis
18" 1-4x22 scope with buis
18" 2.5-1x32 scope with buis

Longer or shorter matter much (bbl length)?

Planning on running suppressed,  thoughts?

Thinking scope, or do they want irons?

Magazines, how many? Belt or chest mounted?

Need at least two mags, three or four is better. Put 'em where you want; I "dg'd" rifle running from pants pockets.


There's no need to go Tactical Timmy in the basic class. I used and Enfield once, and there's always giuys with lever or bolt guns. (I'd love to take the class with my Marlin .44mag, if they'd allow it.)

A good sling is more important than any of the above considerations IMO. Also bear in mind that you'll be holding the rifle for a fair amount of time, so weight does matter.

I'll leave the chest rig at home. I use a belt with holster/mag holders for 3 gun, hunting and recreation so I'll use that.

mk12 mod1 weighs around 12 lbs, might go that route for the punishment. Will have a lighter 16" as a backup.

What distance do they zero at?

Zero at 50, confirm at 200

I didn't mean to be mocking above. If you want to use a chest rig, use one. I just meant to say that you won't be hopelessly behind if you don't have one, it's not that kind of class.



As always, use what you want, but unless you make Magnus ver Magnusson look like Justin Bieber, I'd advise using a lightweight setup so you can focus on the material and learn the manipulations, rather than on how much your shoulders hurt.

Maybe I'll bring 2 lightweight guns and the mk12. I'm 6'6" 230 and stay in pretty good shape but 10 hours is a long time to be shouldering 12 lbs.

Any other tid bits or extraneous info?

2 day or 4 day?

2 day, several in my group couldn't get enough days off for the 4 day.

Unless they've changed things, the two day is the first half of the four day, if that makes sense. The first day will be slow, like the handgun class; you might shoot only 20 rounds or so. A good chunk of the second day is spent zeroing. (It takes a while to get everybody back and forth at 200yds) You'll do a Donga trail/Arroyo of Death/whatever. No skills test at the end.

I'll be looking forward to the skill builder then

Zero drill is now done at 25 yds, just to eliminate time needed.
For most sights, 50 for irons and 100 for glass is better. But this zero gets you through the class.

Canyons not in use anymore (expansion on SW end of property created downrange issues).

Four day skills test has changed; only out to 100 yds but more shooting. It's more defensive-rifle oriented than it used to be.

Bring some oxygen for the Wall drill.

Knee pads and elbow pads help out a lot!

Does he need a handgun?

.???? Confused on intent of handgun question

I've taken rifle classes in the past that list pistols as required--usually for transitions. After reading course description, I don't think you'll need it.

Gotcha, good looking out. I'm anticipating a lot of fun when I get to the more advanced courses,  transitions, move and shoot etc. I have to take all the pre-reqs to move on. Not a bad thing I guess, as I fill the gaps of my informal firearms knowledge.

Keep us posted about the class.

When are you taking the class?  My GF and I will be out there tomorrow thru Monday for the 4-day rope and rappelling class.

Be there tomorrow and saturday. I'm interested in the rope/rappel also and would love to hear a review.

ETA I shot you a pm with details if you want to meet up