So I'm walking into Sears on Flamingo and 215 today to buy some Craftsman wrenches and I see two guys getting booted out by the manager and the security guard  One guy is wearing a IWB with a polymer pistol, but he has his damn shirt tucked in behind the holster.  Manager later told me he was walking around the store like that.  If this is true, he was a dumbass.  Concealed means concealed!  The manager was pissed.  If it was anybody here lets have your side of the story.

IMO, open carry is stupid and creates far more problems than it solves.  I don't want anyone to know if I am carrying, because if some scumbag decides to get froggy and jump, he will be trying to shoot me first.

This guy did...........

and he decides to post on another forum too - attention whore?

The Guy should have apologized and walked out, the manager had it right, it is private property, Just as if the person was in my home he is a guest and subject to owner rules.
His actions make it harder on us CC people whom might not get treated as courteous if our weapon is ever  spotted, prints, ect ect

It didn't help that he was five foot nothing, with a shaved head and a bright red shirt with a black gun sticking out.  Again, what the hell is the point of wearing a IWB holster and then tucking your shirt inside the holster so every single person can plainly see your gun.  I walked right in front of him and the manager and made eye contact with both, neither knew I was carrying.  I then later talked with both the manager and the security guy for over ten minutes, again, neither had a clue.  Common sense.  He had none.

A right you cannot exercise is a right lost.

Open carry is legal here, if some store has a problem with it that store deserves to lose business.

Thanks for letting me know to avoid ever shopping at Sears.

OC is legal here... I don't see where the confusion is.

There are a few details left out, but here are a few theories.
Maybe the guy OCs because he is between the ages of 18-21 and cannot get a CCW. Yours truly did the same thing.
Maybe the OCer is a new guy to the state and hasn't established residency or his CCW hasnt cleared.
Maybe he made the mistake of thinking that because something is legal, yet socially unpopular, that it was acceptable behavior.
Maybe he cant afford to get his CCW, but still labors under the crazy idea that his life is valuable and worth protecting.
Maybe he is being provacative and testing the limits of the law.

Are we free men? I could swear our state constitution has some rambling bit in it about the carrying of arms for legal purposes, but maybe I read it wrong and it said it was only OK when it didnt upset others.
The writer on NVShooters is not particularly literate and his explaination is hard to read, but it sounds to me like the manager asked him to leave, he asked for the reason or company policy and the manager berated him throught the store as he left. It sounds mighty familiar because I have seen it myself.
Here is my suggestion: let's put up a united front. When gun owners are treated poorly for acting within their rights, we support them in that activity instead of getting all high and mighty. Or, let's continue to splinter ourselves. FUDDs over there, concealed only snobs on this side, cops over here, NFA owners (you unpopular assholes...why do you need a silencer or a machine gun?).  Hand together or hang alone, y'know?
What exactly are we afraid of? By bringing attention to OC, it will cause a public outcry and create a demand to outlaw it? What, then, is the point? Hooray! We can legally open carry, but we never use it because we dont want to upset anybody. But we have it!

You totally don't sound elitist.  

agreed

Well spoken sir.  

I wonder if I just got lucky or what.  I open carried in that exact store a few months ago, talked to several employees as I was trying to find a particular tool, and never got more than a raised (and promptly lowered) eyebrow.  I've also open carried at the Sears in the Meadows Mall several times, and around the inside of the mall proper once or twice. The only one who said anything was the clerk at the game store who thought it was cool

No, I sound like a arrogant prick, which I can be at times.  Yes open carry is legal.  Is it the right choice?  Not IMO. What exactly did this guy accomplish by OC yesterday?  Did he make some sort of political statement?  Did he give gun owners a better image?  Did he win over the store manager, security guard, and the group of customers who stopped to watch the show?  Are they all more pro gun now?  If you want to make a statement, VOTE.  Walk neighborhoods for the candidate that will stand up for your rights.  You carry a gun to protect yourself and your loved ones.  You don't go waltzing through a large department store with a gun showing in this day and age and honestly think you will not cause a stir just because it is legal to do so.  It will never be socially accepted to OC.  Period.  End of story.  If you are going to OC, you had better planned to get confronted often when you go to stores, and your list of business you will not shop from will grow and grow.   Or you can stay concealed, go about your business, keep a low key, and be prepared to use your firearm if and when the time comes.

Well.... be ready..... the guys on the other forums (Nevada Shooters and Open Carry) are coming over here and are awaiting their account approval.  

Good luck.

On private property, the owner or lessee can legally tell you that you have to leave because:

- you are wearing something they deem inappropriate
- you are loitering
- you look like you are up to no good
- you are making too much noise
- you are making a scene
- they just plain don't like you (as long as it isn't based on race or sexual preference - that would be a hate crime)

I have the same right to ask you to get the hell off of my property and then I can call the police if you refuse because you are trespassing.

The problem I have is not with open carry laws, but with people that are trying to make a political statement.  It is the same as the protesters with Jesus and Mary pictures in front of abortion clinics.  It draws just as much, if not more negative attention to your cause because you look like a whack-job.  Then when you start making a scene that gets everyone's attention and claiming that you want to see policies shows that you were actively and aggressively trying to make a statement about your issue.

Everyone here has every right to boycott companies which they disagree with, but when we force people to agree with our point of view on their property because of "open carry laws", we are no better than the policy that "prohibits" us from open carrying on the store premises.

Your reasoning for CC is sound, the point is RedShirt guy wasnt CCing. He was intentionally OCing. I cant speak for his motivation in doing so, but attacking him for it only adds ammo to the other side's argument. Bill Ruger essentially wrote the magazine capacity restriction in the AWB in the same way.
In your conversation with the manager and security guy, did you get any feeling at all that they were sympathetic or were they the standard sheep? Did you point out to them that their policy only targets law abiding citizens? He may not have advanced the cause or image of gun owmers, but did you take advantage of the conversation to point out that his actions were legal? Did you tell them that many of their customers, at that very moment, were likely armed?
Just remember where you stand today when CC is under attack and the FUDDs get behind assholes like Reid who just dont see any need for you to carry cuz you caint hunt with it.

By your reasoning, Rosa Parks was no better for her refusal to sit in the back of the bus than the institutionalized biggotry that created the policy.
I would argue that ordinances and policies restricting free men from bearing arms is akin to discrimination, but Im crazy like that.

A public bus is public.  A private retail establishment is private.  What part don't you understand?

If it bothers you that much and Sears is losing that much business, then open your own tool store that requires you to have a firearm before entering.  Welcome to freedom!  

YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOP AT SEARS!  NOBODY IS MAKING YOU... HENCE YOU ARE A FREE MAN!

So a private bus company would be ok to make Parks sit in the back? Discrimination, against a right specifically enumerated in both Federal and State constitutions, is wrong. Whether its perpetrated by a private or public entity is irrelevant.
I dont see a difference, because again, by your logic, she dont have to ride the bus, therefore she is free.

Speach is protected as well. Should property owners be prohibited from asking foul mouthed patrons from leaving?

You have a choice. You either obey the rules set by the property owner or you stay off the property. When it comes to private business your vote is your wallet. Go to a competitor if you don't like their policy.

Not at all. The difference is that a man peacefully exercising a right to self defense, possibly in the only legal manner available to him, is not actively being belligerant. That kind of behavior is specifically addressed under the law as brandishing and menacing and such.
You cant throw someone off a bus for being Arabic, but it is perfectly acceptable to throw him off for shouting about how the camel gave him crabs.

Yeah I was one of the two guys i was not carrying and those managers were big time jerks, my friend paintsnow, the five foot nothing guy that was carrying, from Nevadashooters and opencarry.org is waiting for his account approval for this forum but this is what he wanted to say on this matter.

"Scot45, i might have gotten a quick glance at you. Were you chance wearing a black shirt? I think it had something fire department related on it? Again, i just noticed a customer breifly pause before entering the store.

And it wasnt a polymer pistol. Not that its important, but its my Browning Hipower, the only firearm i currently own.

I was infact walking around the store with my shirt tucked behind the holster. It was not ment to be concealed. Since i am under the age of 21, that would be committing a felony in the state of Nevada.

As for my height, i did not know there was a minimum height requirement in order for the 2nd amendment to apply to you. It wasnt exactly my choice to stop growing when i did. Also, very few times have i been discriminated against or made fun on my height since I got out of middle school. For the record, im 5'7".

I also didnt realize there was a dresscode for carrying. You make it sound as if owning a black gun makes me evil. Should i paint it red to match my shirt? Or am i only allowed to wear black clothing? I put on the shirt i was wearing because it was clean, and the first thing to grab from my closet. I usually just grab shirts left to right unless dressing for a special occasion. My head is not shaved, when i go get my hair cut i get it buzzed to a 3/2. Not sure why it would matter how I decide to wear my hair, but i have not had a haircut in a couple weeks, so it is a bitt longer then that.

I do not carry for attention, i carry to excercise my rights, and to be able to protect myself, just like the rest of you. In fact, i have found that the IWB attracts less attention since it breaks up the outline of the firearm, and i like how close it holds it to my body.

While the loss of sales from me personally may not be a big deal, my friend who was with me told his dad, who now will not shop there as well, and several of the people who read my post who vote with their wallets are doing the same. I am hoping that Sears will do what Home Depot and Best Buy did, by revising their policy to mirror Starbucks and Walmart, which is to respect all state laws and not infringe upon them.

Feel free to ask me questions if you found something hard to understand."

There is no difference. Property rights trump your individual rights when you are on someone elses property. Just as you can ask someone to leave your property for just about any reason private business owners can do the same. That is their property and you do not have the right to use it without their permission.

Much like Rand Paul who has been getting demolished in the media for his stance I would be for private businesses being allowed to refuse service due to race or religion as well. If they want to deal with the social consequences and limit their earning potential that should be their choice to make. That portion of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is outdated in my opinion.

You still have the right to petition them or protest their policies once you are off of their property.

I'm five foot nothing with a shaved head and even a goatee...what difference should this make?
While I am not one to open carry, I do not have any issues with other people exercising their rights. I also have no issues with a private business deciding to not do business with somebody carrying a gun.
When I worked at the nightclubs in Vegas, , there were many times I had to ask off duty LEO's if they were carrying, or people that showed me a CCW as a form of ID...if they told me that yes they were carrying, they were denied entry. I would tell them that, I myself am a strong supporter of the 2nd ammendment but per policy they were not allowed to bring any weapons on property (unless they were on duty). Same thing with knives. I would see a pocket knife clipped to their pants and I would not allow entry. I would tell them that as somebody who also carries a pocket knife...I know its a tool. But company policy does not allow for patrons to enter with it. They could go store them back in their rooms or see if hotel security could lock them up but coming into the club with it was a big no.

Some people walked away pissy. Most understood.

I was being sarcastic, WP....

Now I agree with that position, AndrewS. If we are to allow discrimination, it needs to be unilaterally allowed and not willy-nilly.

I am glad you can see where I am coming from. I also understand your frustrations and those of the OCer that was asked to leave even though I don't necessarily share them. Restricting property rights just isn't the way to go. A petition accompanied by a boycott of Sears Holdings brands is what should be done. People here have done it before and succeeded on the local level. Taking on Sears Holdings corporate is a much bigger fish but it has to start somewhere by someone.

Everyone that is butt-hurt over their rights being violated should allow homeless people to camp out in their front yard with no recourse for them dedicating on and trashing it.  It's their right to live freely as they choose.

And my freedom of speech will now include me playing Slayer at 3:00 AM with my speakers aimed at your house blasted above 160db.    

Do I also have the right to break into your house to show it to my friends that want to "see the neighborhood"?


Trashing private property rights is not a road to being free!

BTW on my private bus, I can make people sit wherever the hell I want.  If they don't want to buy a ticket where I assign seats, they don't have to ride.  It is not funded with taxpayer money!

Absolutely agreed there, too. I am NOT arguing for the trampling of property rights, I am advocating equality under the law. Being legally able to throw out a man legally OC who is not bothering anyone would be fine if the same owner could legally throw out a black man who was also minding his own business because the property owner has an irrational fear of blacks and saw some government statistics that detailed how black men were responsible for the greatest percentage of crime. Sounds silly, but it's an Apples to Apples comparison of stupidity that does not require homelss people shitting on my stuff or "Angel of Death" at dawn to explain.

For those who judged this young man and belittled his choice of OC, what do you propose? He cannot legally carry concealed. Should he break the law? Should he cave in to public opinion and sacrifice his own security so he doesnt offend or upset the ignorant? Perhaps he should call businesses ahead of his arrival and determine their position on firearms. What if it turns out every grocery store has a no guns policy?
I know what I would choose in his position because I have walked in his shoes.

The fact that some of you in here are against open carry

I'm not sure anyone in here is specifically against open carry. I do so on occasion. But it is tactically suspect, if you ask me.

I don't think poster are against the right to carry openly, but question the way in which it was accomplished.  This reminds me of how in the 80s and 90s in CA, when  homosexuals would have over the top public displays of affection to show that they have rights too.  There were parades, where people wore attention-seeking outfits to get some camera time.  Isn't this sort of the same thing? Previous posters posted a key point, were any opinions changed due to this display? Did this display make people realize that there's a right to carry, and did they automatically feel comfortable with the concept? I don't know the answer, but we've now read about some of the reactions.

There seem to be two competing issues here––exercising a right and self-protection.  It can be argued that open carry may put you at risk, as you are attracting attention to yourself.  I prefer the "gray man" mindset as referenced above for self-defense purposes.

I agree that OC in public is tactically stupid, but I recognize that I have the legal option to choose CC. This kid does not have that option.
Those arguing so strongly for property rights, I challenge you to disarm at every location that is posted. By carrying CC, you are guilty of violating their wishes and trampling on their precious rights.

I am for open carry and concealed carry.  Never did I state otherwise.

I am against telling people what they are allowed to allow on their private property!  

There are guys out there trying to push the limits of OC by strapping Draco's on their shoulder while wearing shirts that we think are funny like "PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER", and this does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our gun rights!

People who didn't give two shits suddenly scratch their heads and say, "I don't like it that that guy is carrying xyz firearm at the shopping mall," and then they petition their representatives to change the laws or at minimum the rules of the shopping mall!

I have never been asked to leave a store for concealed carrying.  If they asked me to, I would happily oblige them and not raise a stink even though I don't agree with them.  I also don't carry at UNR, courthouses or schools because it is against the law, even though I don't agree with the law.   I also don't agree with some speed limits, but I [mostly] obey them.  And if I don't, I pay the ticket!

In Nevada I have open carried on occasion for about two decades.
Gotten a couple of "clever" comments about it, was once asked if I had a license for it (by the bag boy of all people, the one with a 'I am Joe Dipstick from Kalifornia' name tag!).
But I've never been forced to leave anywhere.

The major problem with OC in Nevada is that too few do so, particularly in liberal infested Clark and Washoe counties.

I also OC in AZ when I go down there each December,
The major difference is that in AZ OC is much more common, so more accepted.
They are also required to provide lockers in places that do not allow OC, such as the public library.

The proper response here is for open carry to become much more common.
Particularly in summer, when real CC is damn difficult.

Once common, OC will cease to be an issue, except for the same sort of 'Tard tourist who get offended in AZ.
Screw them, they are just visiting, we live here.

You are ignoring the other possibility. The revocation of the right to OC.

I am all for exercising your rights. After all, if you cannot exercise your rights you don't really have them. I agree that the more people start to see OCers the easier it may become to OC. However, this isn't something that can happen overnight. It has to happen naturally which takes time. Every time the people taking part in the current OC movement draw attention to themselves by having OC group meetings in public or by making a scene when challenged on their right they are working against themselves. OCers are still a minority. Putting a magnifying glass on yourselves and forcing the media to cover your story without having a diligent hand in guiding the stories in your favor will result in more negative coverage than positive. The fact that you don't have the support of concealed carry proponents, let alone gun owners as a hole, should be a huge sign to you that you aren't garnering sympathy for the discrimination you see.

California OCers who have no other option of carrying went on a public campaign to raise awareness in hopes of making it easier to OC. They made the public aware of them but too much exposure too quickly made it impossible for them to educate their new "fans." Now there is a bill on its way to being passed that will prohibit open carry.

What Sears was this ?EDIT: Sears on Flamingo and 215, someone mentioned home depot, yeah... the one with 3 truckloads of illegal aliens hanging around the Entire Parking lot, I see the point now
Remind me to never go there, if it's that dangerous a place that regular customers feel the need to open carry, I better buy my chinese made stuff summers else. carry on

I am not changing my habits just to be some sort of groveling PC dweeb.

Summer = Open Carry.

Trying to hide a high-power under a tee shirt just looks what it is, dumb.
With open carry I do not have to confirm which gun(s) are listed on my current CCW permit.

As stated, any right you have to be afraid to exercise is a right already lost.

Has it been established that this is corporate policy and not just store policy, or even the manager making a command decision?



 

Emails from corporate received by members on other boards indicate it is corporate policy, to include their Kmart holding.

Open carry is legal.  Asking someone to leave your business is also legal.

Reaching for my carry gun, threatening me with arrest after I comply & leave your business?  THAT was an asshole move.

Was the kid being a little dramatic with his posting? sure. I doubt he was planning a 2k tool purchase at a place like that.  Is the manager a flaming cocksucker for his actions? ABSOLUTELY.

Lem

That's funny...I'm not one of those and I routinely carry with ease a Sig 239 all summer long in shorts and t-shirts without being "made" and zero personal discomfort.  I highly suggest getting a Clip-Draw and learning to use it properly.  I have total faith in Clip-Draws and the stability it offers "IF" you use it correctly with a belt that is properly tightened.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of OC in "big cities" since you completely lose the element of suprise and I like being "in cognito".  Never been one of those guys that needs a "penis extension" or needs to feel "tougher" because of what I have strapped on.   If that works for you so be it.  I will only open carry around my house or when I get out of the "city".  I like to not have a sign around my neck that calls attention to myself and that's just me....not saying any other way is completely wrong or right.

A 5" steel 1911 is even bigger than a Hi-Power and I have carried one for five straight years concealed IWB in the summer with nothing but a XL t shirt and shorts.  I'm 6'4" and 220 so a XL isn't a tent on me either, yet I've never been made or been uncomfortable.  Spend the money on a high quality, well made holster and you will never look back. I still have some quality leather IWB holsters for a Hi-Power you are more than welcome to try out.

^This^

I've been carrying CCW for over 14 years. I carry a P220 or a Stainless Commander with three spare 8 Round mags ALL year long. Never been uncomfortable and never been "made."

I agree that OC is tactically a poor choice when you have other options.
What does an instructor who advocates ALWAYS being armed recommend for someone who cannot get a concealed permit, whether barred by age or finances?
The point of his OC was that he has no other option.

GM,

I wasn't commenting on the OC issue. I was referring to carrying a large frame handgun.

Really?  REALLY?  This stinks of internet tough guy syndrome.  Walk softly and carry a big stick, don't post on the damn internet how you might have drew you super dandy shiny new combat karambit against some store employee.  Reality is if some random guy in a store grabbed you or your gun in a threatening manner, you would probably have shit your pants like most of us would, not calmly draw your back up knife and go to work like some super Delta guy.

The thing is that he could throw anyone out for any reason he wants. The problem is that there would be a civil lawsuit if the reason was racially motivated and he would probably lose. It wouldn't be criminal for him to do it though.

You better calm down.....

Once he is approved for an account here, he will let you know how he really feels.