I just finished about a 1 hour cleaning ritual getting the "tar" out of the breech of my PTR 91 from shooting South Adfrican surplus.  I bought one of the 980 round cases last December and have
shot about 1/2 of it but am absolutely tired of scraping the tar out of the chamber and bolt assembly after shooting 100 - 150 rounds.  The Portuguese surplus I had (unfortunately I cannot find anymore) never gave this residue.  I hate to "retire" this ammo but had failure to feed problems by the end of the day with cartidges getting caught at an angle with the bullet pointed up
and the bolt closing 1/2 way on the cartridge.  I thought it was the magazine but the same thing
happened with three different magazines.  The markings on the ammo boxes are 026BO3 / 81.

Good luck if you have any of this ammo.  

Yeah, I know this ammo disappoints a lot of people.  The first time I used it I was really confused when my rifle quit cycling.  Up to that point I had heard nothing but good things about the SA ammo.  I have the remains of two cases of the stuff, about  1200-1300 rounds.  One lot number ends in 3/81 like yours, the other in 11/81.  Other threads all seem to point to 1981 lot numbers.  I plan to keep on shooting it till it's gone.  I never do more than about 200 rounds per range session anyway, and that's about when my PTR 91 starts hiccuping.

I use Hoppe's #9 to clean my rifle.  I also use an E&L breech face brush (as well as a bore brush, patches, and some shop rags).  This all takes about 30-40 minutes including disassembly/assembly.  For me it is worth it considering the availability of surplus 7.62 x 51mm ammo and the price of the SA ammo.  So I'll keep shooting and cleaning till it's used up thus allowing me to save my Portuguese stuff.  YMMV

Siler tip,

Were did you get the E and L breech face brush you referred to in your post?  One of the harder parts for me to get clean on the PTR 91 is the recess where the bolt assembly sits when in the
closed position.  Will this brush you refer to clean that part of the chamber?

thanks,

Sorry,  I mispelled Silver Tip

Here ya go.  

http://www.brasscatchers.com/store/brushes.html#Anchor-46919

(Darn it, I never can get these links to go live on this forum.  Unless someone can help us, you'll have to copy and paste.  Sorry.)

Don't just get the chamber face cleaning brush.  Get the whole set with this brush, the short cleaning rod, the receiver cleaning brush, and the 9mm chamber brush--set# 591.  The receiver cleaning brush is square.  It also cleans the mag well and the interior of the mag bodies after mags have been disassemble.  The 9mm chamber brush does a great job of cleaning the flutes in the chamber, but I seldom need it, as the Hoppes really dissolves the tar and it wipes right out.  Hope this helps you.

Forgot to answer your question.  Yes, the chamber face cleaning brush gets into the recesses for bolt lock up.  One fellow commented that the wires spread out with each use of this brush.  Therefore the brush gets better with time in cleaning the whole breach area.  I guess in time I'll know if he is right.

www.brasscatchers.com/store/brushes.html#Anchor-46919

+1 on Part/kit #591.  GREAT set!

Why not pull down some rounds and take some pics of this sealant.

How about a pic of the tar on your bolt.


JR

Man, this is disappointing to hear. I just ordered a lot of SA for my Cetme. I think it will be more profitable to get a new rifle than sell the ammo.

got over 1000 rds of the SA surplus thru a PTR91, and a pair of HK91.....no issues at all

my lot # is A 2 80

Like I said, every time a lot number is posted for SA ammo with the tar residue, it always seems to be one from 1981.  All the others seem to work fine.

Quoted: Like I said, every time a lot number is posted for SA ammo with the tar residue, it always seems to be one from 1981.  All the others seem to work fine.

I'm shooting 11/A/2/80

No problem with tar, but its pretty dirty ammo that leaves quite a bit of carbon after firing just several rounds

You might want to get some cleaning swabs from Midway.  Kink of like having a cotton ball on the end of a wire.  Get some Carb Cleaner, I would use Berrymans B-12, and put on the swab.  Should eat that tar right out.  It is stout stuff and will soften/dissolve plastic if you are not careful.  Haven't had the tar problem, but it might be an easy solution.

Quoted: Like I said, every time a lot number is posted for SA ammo with the tar residue, it always seems to be one from 1981.  All the others seem to work fine.

I just checked my stash.

Yea, post some pics for us folks that don't know shit and would like(need) visual aids for proper identification when the situation arises for us.

I have 80 and 81 SA I  haven’t shot any 81 yet but from all appearances they are the same. They have the same type of powder, tar bullet sealant, and burgundy sealant around the primer. I went through about 400 rounds last weekend with out issue with the 80 so I guess I will have to try some of the 81. It is some dirty stuff but it seems to function fine in both my PTR's.

Here ya go:




Tar sealant in case mouth.




Tar residue on bullet.

guess mine might have the tar......but its caused me no problems and I am not a cleaning nut, prolly do 300rds before a basic clean....and it cleans up just fine.

I'll keep shootin it

my batch with tar is 092 B07/81. i usually make it the first 40 rounds i fire, then spend the rest of the time firing various other brands to clean it out, seems to work. WD-40 strips the crap right out.

097 B07/81  
I have about 500 rounds down range since the last cleaning and no problems, very very dirty, no doubt tar in the sealant,  but my JLD keep running, no problems getting it clean with Hoppes Elite in the spray bottle

Maybe some lots are worse than others and some chambers/bolts are more sensitive to this issue than others...

Thanks very much for the pics...now I can see that it was a no-brainer. :)

Quoted: 097 B07/81   I have about 500 rounds down range since the last cleaning and no problems, very very dirty, no doubt tar in the sealant,  but my JLD keep running, no problems getting it clean with Hoppes Elite in the spray bottle Maybe some lots are worse than others and some chambers/bolts are more sensitive to this issue than others...

billbotts, I think you hit on something.  I had been wondering this myself.  My PTR 91 is in the A1300 s/n range.  The empty cases have the marks of the chamber flutes on them of course, but they are not as pronounced as some I've seen from true HK 91's.  Maybe the modifications J.L.D.  made to the chamber flutes are a part of the tar problem.  I have another PTR 91 enroute to my FFL/transfer agent.  It's a 16" barrel with a folding stock in a later serial number range.  When it arrives, I'm going to see if there might possibly be a difference in this chamber vs. my first gun.  Then I'll shoot a lot of SA ammo in it to observe any difference in the results.  I've read a couple of threads about deepening the flutes ever so slightly with a diamond file.  Later I may call Brownell's and discuss this with one of their tech reps.  And then again, I may not have a clue of what I'm talking about.  hinking.gif

I still have a few cases of this ammo left, I'll need to check my production dates. Of what I've fired so far none of it has left any tar residue in the barrel. Thinking about this I just might have a case from 81.. :(

1800 rds gone thru so far,
no problems, proper cleaning a must.

myitinaw, can you tell us what lot number(s) you were working with?

tag

one more thought, may not be relevant but I will spout it, thinking past the chamber gunk issue

The only lubricants I use on the rifles are TW25B and Tetra grease, same for my AR's

To the extent any of my AR's will keep running with filthy, carbonizing ammo, they will run longer with those two types of grease than any other grease or any type of oil.   I wonder if the TW25B on my PTR91 bolt and bolt carrier is helping me push it further?   That would assume the problem is not in the chamber however...and I don't know.  Then again maybe 097 B07/81 wasn't a bad lot for sealant...

The one thing this keeps reminding me, is you have to shoot each lot of any surplus ammo with your rifle before you depend on it.

.

I received the PTR 91K today; the rifle that I referred to in my earlier post about chamber differences.  I disassembled  this rifle and another PTR that I purchased early last year.  There is a definite difference in the chamber flutes especially in the neck area.  My first rifle is in the A1300 serial number range; this second one is in the A2500 .  The later rifle has flutes that are definitely wider and seem to be deeper than the one manufactured earlier.  I will take it to the range late this afternoon, weather permitting.  I've got about 300 rounds from two lots  of SA ammo that fouled my first rifle after shooting about 200 rounds.  I'll post my results later this evening.

Anyone having the same problem in factory HK-91's with the tar?  I found some 81 S/A local for cheap but dont' want to bother with it if it won't run.  I don't care about the cleaning part...HK's are a bitch to clean either way..but if it'll run I'll pick it up.

Quoted: Anyone having the same problem in factory HK-91's with the tar?  I found some 81 S/A local for cheap but dont' want to bother with it if it won't run.  I don't care about the cleaning part...HK's are a bitch to clean either way..but if it'll run I'll pick it up.

i may just be lucky, or may be just my rifle, but i have never had a problem with the SA 308 in my HK91, thats why i went ahead and put several thousand rounds of it away.  a thread about this same subject concerned me so i pulled some ammo and took some pics.  guess what.  the south african had LESS tar sealant than the portugese ammo AND even the surplus 1960s usgi ammo i tested!  i have pics to prove it but i dont want to wake the dog up getting them tonight.  will try tomorrow.  i have shot hundreds of rounds thru the hk, and have never seen even a hint of tar and i am a meticulous cleaner.  therefore i will not worry about any tar sealant issues.  it must be just an issue the ptrs have with this particular ammo.

Well, I did go to the range with the newly acquired PTR with the deeper, wider flutes and turns out they don't help.  As a matter of fact, this chamber configuration is worse than my other PTR with the shallower flutes.  These deeper grooves seem to give the tar more surface area to stick to.  And rather than after 150 to 200 rounds, the problem cropped up with the second magazine.  I run 15 rounds in a mag.  After I finished a mag, the first round out of the next magazine would fail to cycle or just barely cycle (spent case would flop out on the bench beside me.)  This case would have some of the tar stuck to the side often showing a reverse impression of the closest flute.  Seems to me the cold round going into the warm chamber caused the tar to solidify and adhere to the case.  I don't have a digital camera, but if my son shows up this weekend I'll try to post some pictures of the cases I saved from this range session.

Bummer man

i just pulled down a round of 81 SA, i found very little sealant on the bullet and what was left inside the neck area i scraped out. There was hardly anything there, a tiny area  of specks smaller than toast crums. I heated the sealant left on the bullet with a match and let it cool i then used CLP to clean it, it wiped right off, i then put CLP and the sealant specs between my fingers and rubbed them together gently, the sealant dissolved. I dont think this small amount is causing rifles to fail, i think there are chamber issues because some rifles are working great with this stuff. or the ammo has very dirty powder ,or a combination of both .Heavy carbon build up can look like tar. Is this happening with HK91's ??

I don't have any problems with SA surplus in my PTR or my DSA STG58.
I don't have the lot numbers handy, I'll post them next time I go out in the garage.

Thanks, KA3B, I'll be interested in the lot numbers you report.  1MRBEAN I think it is more than carbon.  I'm going to be 60 in a few days and I been shooting and cleaning firearms for over 50 years now.  This residue is slightly tacky to the touch.  I have pulled the trigger group just after firing a mag or two of the SA.  The residue will be a liquid somewhat like an extremely light weight motor oil on the face of the hammer.  But after the rifle starts to cool, the stuff sets up.  It's kinda like hot candle wax dripping on a surface then solidifying, but of course not that thick.  And one of the results is that it will "glue" your action shut.  The rifle often does not cycle.  After you remove the magazine and grab the charging handle it will often  take all your strength to open the action.  I first heard of this from a fellow posting here or over on hk91.com.  He said he was unable to open the action and returned the rifle to JLD.  They of course were able to correct the situation, clean the rifle, and return it.  In doing so, they told the owner that they did not recommend the SA ammuniton in the PTR series because of this residue.  Others have reported talking with Victor at JLD and receiving the same advice.  However if all lots of SA ammo are working in the true HK91 and all the later HK licensed rifles, then I'm sure you are right about it being a difference in the chamber configuration.  I believe JLD did change the number of flutes in the chamber.  

All this being said, I am still quite pleased with my PTR rifles.  The PTR 91K was shooting 2" three shot groups with the SA ammo.  Often two of the holes were touching and the third gave me the final group size.  My first PTR 91 will give me a range session of a couple hundred rounds before I notice any problem with the SA ammo.  My newer PTR 91K will get a diet of Portuguese ammo.  In the meantime,  I'll get set up to reload the .308 caliber including a supply of brass.  I reload for most other of my firearms including .30-06 for Garands and 1903's and also .223 for my AR's.  I know the G3 families reputation on beating up brass, but I think a resizing die will take most of the "wrinkles" out.  Safe shooting, guys.

sorry it took me a while for these pics, but as you can see the biggest difference to me in the 3 rounds i tested was only the powder. SA looks like what may be "stick powder". the portugese had smaller odd shaped particles, and the usgi ammo had the very smallest perfectly spherical powder.  when shooting it,it is also the hottest loaded and highest quality (and the oldest, 1966!) the SA ammo had the least tar in it, followed by the portugese, and finally the usgi m80 ball from 1966 had the most.  one thing may be that the SA ammo is not specifically nato stamped or marked.  therefore it may be SLIGHTLY outside the specs for which PTR chambers are designed.  dont have a scale or micrometer so i cant tell you.  i just know that HKs were desgned to eat anything period.
it the below pics, on the left in every pic is the South African. on the right is always the Portugese.
the USGI M80 ball is always in the middle, but may be top or bottom.

SA powder



M80 powder


portugese powder


all 3 powders


headstamps


projectile rear


projectile side


last but not least, the tar, and yes the SA is on the left

Excellent post slap!  Does the port have a thinner jacket than the other two?  Or is the difference merely cosmetic at the base?

After seeing Slapshot's pictures I think there is a good chance the "tar" I have seen in my pTR 91
from the SA ammunition is a binder (resin) they mix with the powder ingredients during the manufacture.  The larger barrel shaped gunpowder particles of the SA are probably from an extruder similar to a spaghetti extruder.  A chopper blade then cuts the tube shaped powder as
it comes out of the extruder.  The powder granules from the other two examples do not have the large barrel shaped appearance.  The binder (resin) is needed to hold the ingredients together as it is extruded.  I am aware of other types of ordinance using a binder to allow the powder to be molded or extruded in various shapes.  Any comments guys?

You could be right, Jmark.  This stuff has to be coming from somewhere and the photos show too little of the bullet sealant to make much of a difference.  I have a spent cartridge of SA ammo in my range box from my last session.  There is a glob of "tar" on it with the surface area of about half the size of a penny.  It is thick enough to show a ridge from the chamber flute. This was the result of firing the first round of a new mag, after shooting just 15 rounds.  If anyone is interested here is a developing thread over on hkpro.com about a  HK91 (not a PTR 91) possibly jammed by the SA ammo residue.  

 http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=348354&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

tag

I actually had that same issue w/ my ptr91k. After about 90 rounds, the action was basically "glued" shut. The shells that i forcefully ejected were covered w/ a tar like substance. When i got home and commenced to cleaning, around the chamber area i was literally scrapping off that stuff. The SA lot that i have is 207 A11/80. As expensive as 308 ammo is, i guess ill just have to pay more attention to the chamber for one. And two, watch the ejected ammo for tar buildup as a sign of future ejection failure.

Quoted: Thanks, KA3B, I'll be interested in the lot numbers you report.

A little late....

I have been shooting S/A lot # 011B03/81 through both my STG58 and PTR91 with no problems.
If I put too much lube in and on the PTR then the gunk does accumulate.
A quick blast of Gunscrubber and it's all good again.
The STG58 just keeps eating it with no problems.

Quoted: Excellent post slap!  Does the port have a thinner jacket than the other two?  Or is the difference merely cosmetic at the base?

sorry for the delay, yes it appears that the Port does have a thinner  jacket than the others. however i did not dissect  (sp?) any projectiles.  the other 2 have a larger copper "base" at the end which you can see in the pics, but i dont believe they are that thick throughout.