I really didn't want to post this, but it has reached this point.

AMSEC has a 1 year warranty on their safes.  I sold this BF6030 to a customer on 12/3/13.  He contacted me on 9/16/15 to report a problem.  We are 9 months beyond the 1 year warranty.

The customer called to report that his safe would not open.  I spoke with him to get descriptions of what was happening so that I could formulate some possible causes.  He stated that the he would dial in his combination, and the dial would come to a stop as normal.  This ruled out a lock failure.  He stated that he would then turn the opening handle, and it appeared to rotate its normal distance and stop, but when he pulled to open the door, it wouldn't open.  Although I have never seen it happen on an AMSEC gun safe, my first thought is a bolt has become disconnected and is preventing the door from unlocking.  We set an immediate appointment to get his safe open.

I go myself.  Upon my arrival I dial the lock open, and verify that my initial ruling was correct.  I turn the handle, and everything feels and sounds correct.  I pull to open the door, and there's no movement at all.  This is odd, because there is usually some amount of in/out movement in all safe doors.  Doesn't seem to be a bolt disconnect at all.  Something must be jammed in the door.  I ask the customer what he could have in the safe that he closed the door on, and he can't think of anything.  He only has guns/ammo within the safe.  The ammo is in boxes, and the long guns do not have slings attached.  So we flex our muscles, grab the handle, and attempt to coax the door off of whatever it is pinching.

We got it opened, and this is what we found:













In some of these photos you will noticed that the fire seal has been removed to show the damage.  My customer is an engineer.  I have been in the safe business for 25 years, and have seen versions of this before.  We both come to the same conclusion as to the possibilities:  This safe is filled with a cement based fill that expands, and we are faced with one of three possibilities:

A)  The safe was overfilled at the factory, creating excessive pressure between the door plate and the door pan that contains the fill.  Eventually this pressure caused the door pan to blow out.

B)  The safe was filled properly, but the pan was attached poorly.  This poor attachment caused it to blow out under the stress it was designed to withstand.

C)  The safe was filled properly, the pan was attached properly, but the fill was defective and swelled beyond its expectations.  Eventually this pressure caused the door pan to blow out.

In any of these scenarios, the defect is latent.  You can't see it.  You don't know it's happening.  And then all of a sudden, just like in this case, something has to give.  I tell him that even though the safe is beyond its initial warranty period, he should make a warranty claim.  He isn't that far beyond the warranty, the manufacturer would likely want to know about this issue, and I am confident that AMSEC will stand behind it.

He starts the claim process.  They request photos of the safe, a copy of the receipt, etc.  After several days, it seems as if things are going well.  They ask where he would like his replacement safe shipped.  I told him to have it shipped to me.  We would handle the removal of the old safe and the installation of the new safe at our expense.  We also stand behind what we sell, and didn't feel he should be out any money.  I inform my warehouse guy that I'm expecting a safe that isn't a regular order, and tell our customer that I will call him once the safe has arrived to set up an appointment to get it out to him.

A week goes by, and he calls to see if the safe has been delivered.  I told him it hadn't, but that wouldn't be abnormal for it to take a couple of weeks.  He tells me he is going to call AMSEC to check on the status.   When he calls back, they inform him that they were not sending out a replacement.  They never called him to say anything.  They never called me.  They simply changed their mind after saying they would ship a replacement while the other involved parties are waiting for it to arrive.

Their reason?  That safe isn't defective.  It was either dropped or attacked (pried on).  Well I'm the one who installed the safe and bolted it to the floor.  I know for a fact that it wasn't dropped.  The customer couldn't have knocked it over and stood it back up because it's bolted to the floor.  I also know that it wasn't attacked.  If somebody would have pried on the safe hard enough to cause that type of damage, there would be other visible signs on the body and door of the safe.  There is no other damage.  Not even paint damage.

The further irony is that what they are claiming caused the damage (an attack) is covered under a life time warranty!  So here we are almost 3 months later, and my customer still has a defective safe.  I wrote AMSEC myself, no response.  I have one of my distributors involved, and as of yet, no response.

Eventually, this safe is going to be replaced, and if AMSEC won't do it, I'll take responsibility.  Many have heard me complain about how AMSEC treats their dealers, and now we have an example of how they treat their customers.  

Wow, I know what manufacturer I won't be buying a safe from for my next purchase.

Time to submit a new claim under the lifetime warranty for the safe being attacked.

Well at least you are standing by the customer Frank.

Had you seen or heard of this type of failure before? Troubling response from AMSEC.

Wow, OP.

That's troubling.

I personally don't own an AMSEC safe and I was contemplating getting one.

Please keep us posted on your progress with the company. I'm sure they wouldn't want a board as large as ARFcom giving them bad press.

Good luck.

Wow, I wish I had a guy like you out in Illinois.  I used to love AmSec.  Not any more.

Amsec may very well have became the Troy industries/EOTech of safe companies in this very thread. I don't think they realize the power of word of mouth, or the traffic on this site.

I think thats a bridge too far.

If you havent been fucked by a manufacturer, then you dont deal with manufacturers. What eotech did isnt comparable imo and was a lot lot worse.

A troubling response indeed, but i know with the large manufacturing companies that im a dealer for, i know id be in for a fight to get that covered. Even if they have a warranty that specifically says my situation is covered, they likely will try to stick me with it.

I'll be curious what the safe guy says about this. I imagine the warranty dept head is a dickhead (every one ive met, are) and is trying to deny it bc thats their job (every one ive met, do).

A dillon or rcbs warranty is nearly unheard of and usually only comes with overpriced products that have higher margins. I like dillon and use their products but they better damn well have a good warranty. They arent a good value. Lot more money for a little more performance.

Like grainger. Best warranty policy in their industry. The highest prices hands down, without question and without exception. Ever. Period.

Didnt mean to ramble, i just get fired up when i think about warranty crap. I have 3 water heaters worth 20 grand that i have to call on tomorrow and bitch about them not getting warranteed.

Perhaps you are right.

Let me rephrase, and say this is the way you obtain a Troy or EO reputation.

Fair enough.

Thanks for posting this. I am building a house and was looking at vault doors. It looks like I will be going with Fort Knox instead.

And here I thought AMSEC was THE way to go, this kind of thing rubs me the wrong way.  I'd be furious if I was the customer who purchased that safe.

Would you...BMad?

Warranty period be damned, that's a defect from the manufacturer. They screw it up, they should fix it up.

Have you tried the Amsec guy who has a thread? A long shot buy you never know. Still sounds fucked up tho.

I guess I always assumed that the bolt support framing on the AMSEC BF was attached to the 1/2" plate door but this photo seems to show that it's attached to that bulging pan of Drylite. Am I missing something? 1/2" plate door, big impressive bolts and all attached to a thin sheet of steel?

Glad I ordered a Sturdy.   No fire protection but a hell of alot tougher with the upgrades I got.

Great choice!!

Shocked AMSEC hasn't stepped into this thread yet.

I own an Amsec and have been extremely happy but also haven't had to deal with Customer Service. I'm staying tuned

I have never seen this on an AMSEC BF, but I have seen it on other filled safes (both composite burglary and fire safes).






I do warranty work for several companies, and there are a few that bend over backwards to make things right.  Liberty Safe is one of them.  They have dished out absurd amounts of money to make sure their customers are taken care of.  This includes warranty work that is performed well outside the limits of the warranty.

What gets me is that whomever is making these decisions has clearly never seen what it looks like when a safe is pried on with a pry bar.  AMSEC is a safe company.  They warranty against burglary.  One would assume that the customer service department has actually viewed photos of safes that have been pried on.  It blows my mind.





I'm not very happy, for several reasons.





It's strong enough when it's attached properly.  

Do you really think so? I've never been a big fan of this safe as you know and your photos have provided more proof of a fundamentally weak design. If you haven't seen this recent video from Sturdy Safe, here it is and take note of the 'heavy duty' safe being shown at the end. Sturdy didn't say what safe it is but we will all quickly recognize design characteristics from the video. So ask your engineer customer if he really wants another AMSEC BF once he does more research.

Photo of AMSEC BF with door panel off:


Sturdy Safe 'Bad Linkage Video' and if the Sturdy Safe folks want me to take this down I will but I think customers should really get a look at what they are getting with the AMSEC BF from not only a customer service standpoint but also a design.

Sure.  It's a gun safe, not a high security jeweler's safe.  But you'd be surprised at how many modern high security safes and vault doors are built in a similar fashion.

Sturdy picked an old school TL-30 plate safe that was well built.  Probably the first one Terry has ever seen in person.     I have a warehouse full of them.  You'd be surprised at the differences of build quality between two safes with the exact same rating.  And although there's nothing wrong with overkill, if two safes will pass the same test, why not limit the effort to what it takes to make the standard?

Twisting door frames looks good in videos, but it's not something that would happen like that during a real world attack.  If it was easy to pry open, he would have made a video showing that instead of putting a crescent wrench on it.

That said, if he put the crescent wrench on the safe I have shown on the photo, he may get the entire rear pan to pop off.  

You flatter yourself.



Based on a comparison of Sturdy Safe design against the AMSEC BF which I'm basing on the photos posted earlier and that of the interior panel above since I can't be 100% sure it is what is being shown in the Sturdy video (hard to believe it's not though), I believe the AMSEC BF is far more vulnerable to a pry attack. I'm hopeful the reason Sturdy spared the damage to the safe is because they want to burn it in a real fire to compare against their own design. I'm just guessing but it's what I"m hoping for ...

*edited my comment to better explain my position

You arent implying the twisting door frame is another bs test like dropping a safe from 20 feet in the air?

Good sir, i find it hard to believe that a safe company would use irrelevant tests for advertising.

Maybe we got somebody's attention.  Got an e-mail this morning wanting to confirm my ship to address.  

I'll keep the thread updated.




Well I find it odd that Terry says that the TL-30 shown in his video is the "proper way to build a safe", and yet he's not building his safes like the one he uses as a proper example.  

I suspect this is why my 2 local "dealers" couldn't be motivated to sell me an AmSec by ordering me what I wanted...



Having heard this from several of their customers, and from you as a dealer/warranty-provider- I rest easy in my decision to go with Liberty.

Frank this is your thread, I thought we were talking about 'Defective AMSEC BF & AMSEC's Lack of Interest'. Now if you want to start another thread where we can discuss how well Sturdy Safe is keeping to the TL30 example they show in their video I think that would be great. I happened to include the Sturdy Video because they had an example that shares virtually every physical characteristic as an AMSEC BF and that example showed that it is a design that could be vulnerable to damage due to it's thin walled construction around it's bolt framing. And, if AMSEC ends up doing the right thing by this customer then the thread served it's purpose in the end.

I know FK gets a lot of hate on here but this thread make me very happy I went with FK with my purchase. I know I would never have to go through this with Ryan and FK.

We do???

I thought everyone liked me.  

Way to stand up for your customer Frank! You won't get that in a big box store!!!
I hope AMSEC makes you and your customer whole.

I do... Isn't that all that matters. It's mostly the AmSec guys think that FK is just over priced. I don't think it is though.

Where's TheSafeGuy when you need him?

The dude is normally amazing and helped me when purchasing mine but the silence is very loud

ETA: Also,  I don't think they need to come on here and negotiate in front of everyone. If there is any movement OP should let us know they are at least handling the situation and they have come to an agreement that is satisfactory.

I'm glad they made it right, but it shouldn't have taken a post on a prominent gun forum for the ball to get rolling...

I am sure he will come around.
Remember,he travels a lot out of the country so he might not even be aware of this thread.

You mean the entire world doesn't revolve around arfcom?

+1
Absent a very good explanation as to what happened and how/why the ball was dropped on taking care of this customer, IMHO the damage is done. It should have never come down to this... especially with a dealer as respected and knowledgeable as Frank.

I appreciate the kind words, but not everybody appreciates guys like me at all.

Let's go back over a 10 year history.  Would you wager to guess how many times AMSEC has reached out to me as one of their dealers since 2005?  Maybe they'd be interested in knowing how my business is doing, and what they could do to sell me more of their product.  Perhaps they'd be interested in knowing how much of their product I sell in any given year.  Maybe they would like to know what my business actually does, and how we could work together in a mutually beneficial way.

They do rank us as dealers on their website, based on that type of criteria.  How many times do you think AMSEC has had a dialogue of any type with me?

0.

That is exactly how many times.  No phone calls.  No e-mails.  No sales reps reaching out.    I couldn't even get a response when I personally e-mailed the customer service rep that was handing this particular warranty claim.

Glad to hear that you got it worked out for you and your customer, a1.

We need more people like you in the industry.

Not surprised. Helps me feel better about  why dealers around me dont want to special order or carry a lot of  their product. Meanwhile Liberty dealer probably would have helped me stock my safe if I would have let him

Sorry I missed this thread, I have been totally buried for the last few weeks after returning from knee replacement surgery. When I have a minute, I'll read this more carefully and see if I understand the issues. This story will not have an unhappy ending, I assure you... if we have a responsibility here, we will take care of business...


Frank,

Would you mind sending me a PM with the specifics so I can check into this please? I need to know who you spoke to at the factory, and what they said.

Hope you heal up quickly and completely.





 

Heal up and Merry Christmas Safe Guy.

I had a strong feeling Safe Guy would get involved here.

Glad to see you back SafeGuy. I bought a BF6030 based on your incredibly helpful posts. Hopefully, you can help get this matter resolved. As an owner, I've been watching this thread closely. Just one BF6030 can't last me forever.

TSG
Now that's takin care of business.i think I'm going to order a rfx up for myself right after the 1st of the year,the one my I ordered thru the company in my office rocks.i don't think you could get into it with a bulldozer.and dynamite

Pete

Pete

What was the outcome of this?  Cause of failure?  

Tag for outcome.

Still haven't seen the replacement safe or heard anything further.  My distributor called me the other day to check on things.  When they heard that the replacement safe had not arrived, they offered to send a replacement safe if needed.  So far I have offered to replace the safe immediately at my expense, my distributor has offered to replace the safe immediately at their expense, but the manufacturer has yet to come through.

TSG, I'll PM you the information.  I suspect the situation is resolved, but simply taking some time.

Still like the products, but it's difficult to like the company and the way they do business.

As was said many times, it's sad it came to a dealer posting in a public forum to shame them into standing behind their product. Not being an engineer, a sales person or a safe "geek" even I can see there are issues with that door. After reading many, many pages by TSG, I believe that if he had seen this earlier, this situation would have been fixed much sooner. I also think that when his knee gets healed up he is going to continue his rehab by kicking some office worker's ass! Now, go get better TSG!