In the previous What is the ultimate reloader??? thread I showed that the Hornady LnL w/casefeeder was only $24 less than a Dillon XL650 w/casefeeder.
I was mistaken in my earlier attempt to compare the presses 'apples to apples' because I recently confirmed that the Hornady press doesn't include a Primer Early Warning Assembly or Follower Rod.  Dillon includes these in all their presses so to be fair, one must add the price of one to Hornady's press price to normalize the pricing between the two.  Hornady doesn't offer one at all so I'll use the Dillon price of $23 instead.

That means that Hornady's actual price is all of $1 less than Dillon's (excluding their bullet offer which is a promotional item and could be discontinued at any time).  Does anyone really think that Dillon's XL650 w/casefeeder is only $1 better than Hornady's LnL w/casefeeder?

Still trying?
You are still forgetting that you can find the L&L for cheaper prices than MSRP,, plus the bullets.
'Borg

....And you don't end up with a shelf full of powder measures and toolheads.

Nope, look again at my pricing model above.  Hornady quotes their LnL at $455.40 and I used the more representative Midway pricing of $360.  I did acknowledge that Hornady offers 1,000 free bullets with their setup in my post.

You don't need to have any more than 1 powder measure if that's your thing.  Loosen 2 bolts and it comes right off so you can install it on another set.  It takes all of about 15 seconds to remove and install it on another.

The purpose of my thread is to demonstrate that the presses are 'every day' priced within a single dollar of each other.  The point of my post is the last sentence.  "Does anyone really think that Dillon's XL650 w/casefeeder is only $1 better than Hornady's LnL w/casefeeder?"  That's the question I'm asking.

The purpose of your post is to bash the L&L,,altho I don't know why.
Is there a deep, dark undertone here we don't know about?
'Borg

No, it isn't.  I'm trying to start a discussion about the technical differences between the two presses because, as I've shown, they are pretty much the same price.  If the Hornady press is mechanically the equal (features, design, quality, durability, ergonomics, etc.) of the Dillon press, then I, an XL650 owner, would have no problems recommending it over my press.  

There isn't anything magical about Dillon's products.  I'm really interested in the Hornady brand as it could be a better deal for those looking for a quality progressive with a casefeeder.  It's true that many Dillon owners get 'nuts' with a separate complete toolhead for every caliber (hell, I've got a complete toolhead setup for 40sw and another one for 10mm).  I guess we feel that a bit more money to get the convenience we want is worth it but that approach isn't for everyone.  

Right now I can't in good conscience recommend another brand of progressive press because of the information I have about the issues with Lee's Loadmaster and Pro 1000, RCBS' 2000, Lyman offerings (they don't make a progressive that I'm aware of) and the previous versions of Hornady's LnL.

In a previous thread (What is the ultimate reloader???) I asked the following questions.

"I honestly don't know so I'm asking those of you that have one.

Are Hornady presses as durable as Dillon's?
How do they hold up after say, 100,000 rds?
How good is their powder measure with different powders?
Are there really consistent problems with their primer feed?
What is their resale value?"

I'm still truly interested in honest answers to those qestions.

I've got a neighbor interested in reloading.  He's using my 650 currently but he'll soon be considering a press setup for himself.  I want to recommend the best value for him as he's a bit tight on money with a family growing up.  If the LnL turns out to be a better candidate than a Dillon, I want to be able to honestly recommend it to him over my setup.

Have you seen the writeup written by acrashb of CGN?  He ran a Lee Loadmaster, Dillon 650 and LNL side-by-side for months, then compared them.
http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillonLeeHornadyComparison.pdf

His bottom line is that Hornady and Dillon are close enough in performance that which you choose should be based on your personal style and needs.  He hints that a reloader who uses a machine to make thousands of one load would be better off with the Dillon, while the reloader who loads a couple thousand each of several loadings may be better served by the Hornady.  There are other variables, as well.

I hope to upgrade to a progessive someday soon, when I do it will almost certainly be the Hornady.  I want one machine to load 9mm, .38 special, .45 auto, .45 Colt, .44 mag, 5.56, 7.62x51 and .30-06.  I don't believe I need a case feeder.  The LNL seems to be the way to go for this situation.

I will also point out that I doubt if anyone can answer your question about durability, yet.  The LNL is too new, and heavy users were just too closed-minded about the blue kool-aid until recently.  In the two years or so since LNL really started flying off the shelves, I doubt anyone has put 100,000 rounds through one.

I haven't put more than about 10 k through mine yet,, had too many rds loaded up to begain with.
One thingI do know, I use the L&L powder measure with extruded powder (RE15) and it runs close+ - .015, good enough for short line matches
'Borg

Thanks BattleRifle for that link.  That's what I was looking for.  It looks like now that Hornady has their EZeject modification, they have a truly competitive system to Dillon's 650.  That makes sense in that equipped with a casefeeder and a low primer warning device, they are within $1 of each other in initial price.

As for the powder measures, I posted a thread where I talked to Dillon about their powder measure and extruded powders.  I've done the polishing of the powder funnel so according to them, it should measure extruded powder very well too.  However, until I try it, I don't know that for sure.

Recommend the Hornady for your neighbor just so he wouldn't be borrowing your 650 shell plates, caliber conversions, etc

One thing that is nice is that you have the option of having the auto indexing of the LNL w/out having to pay the additional money for a case feeder right away.  I plan on buying a casefeeder down the road when I can afford it.  If I had the money, though, I would've bought the 1050.

I just spent the last hour comparing the same type of what you guys did but I went and added everthing I needed to load 223,9mm.40,and 45 and with everything the Hornady came out at 860.00 the dillon set up at 1014.00   looked at shell plates case feed plates  all of it and hornady came out 150.00 less, Then add in a 289.00 1000 45 caliber bullets and I am going the hornady way

I have noticed in photographs that the LNL AP has grease zerks and the XL650 has grease holes.  Zerks offer easy preventative maintenance.

Dillons are extremely boring to operated. You pull the handle and make another

round. Hour after hour, day after day, year after year. No excitement, no mysteries to

solve, just pull the handle and make another round.

COSteve,

I've owned a Hornady LnL for about ten years or so now and have a buddy that's owned a Dillon 650 that I've also loaded on frequently during the same period, so I'm reasonably sure I'm qualified to answer your questions, as we've extensively discussed our experiences and costs with each other over that period of time.

I've cut and pasted your statements/questions below, put them in quotation marks and addressed them

"I was mistaken in my earlier attempt to compare the presses 'apples to apples' because I recently confirmed that the Hornady press doesn't include a Primer Early Warning Assembly or Follower Rod. Dillon includes these in all their presses so to be fair, one must add the price of one to Hornady's press price to normalize the pricing between the two. Hornady doesn't offer one at all so I'll use the Dillon price of $23 instead."

Actually, if I'm remembering what I recently read correctly, the most recent version of the LnL AP comes with one of these.  But since one can make one out of brass rod or dowel rod one gets from the hardware store for a couple of dollars, assigning $23.00 is adding false economy.  

"That means that Hornady's actual price is all of $1 less than Dillon's (excluding their bullet offer which is a promotional item and could be discontinued at any time)."

But the fact is, the bullet offer has been going on for at least a year now and adds significant value to the Hornady and to be fair, you have to factor it in.  If not, you're not being factual in your comparison as long as it's going on.  Additionally, I'm also suspecting you didn't factor in the costs of added caliber conversions.  For the Hornady, that's a single shellplate, a set of dies and enough LnL bushings to hold the dies and one doesn't have to figure out what one needs and doesn't need to add a caliber.  It's simple and affordable.

"Does anyone really think that Dillon's XL650 w/casefeeder is only $1 better than Hornady's LnL w/casefeeder?"

Actually, having reloaded on both and compared them both for years, the Dillon isn't as good as the Hornady, even if the Hornady were the more expensive press by a significant amount.  The Hornady has consistently less (measured many times by myself and my buddy over several calibers) runout with rifle cartridges than the Dillon, the powder measure handles extruded powder much better than the Dillon measure and is significantly easier to adjust/convert to other powders, the press runs smoother and is larger and easier to get one's hands in and out of, the primer disposal system keeps the press clean, so minimal cleaning is required, while primer on the Dillon allows the press to get dirty.  So the Hornady is easier to operate, easier to change calibers on, faster to change calibers on, less expensive to buy caliber conversions for, has better runout and therefore more accurate rifle cartridges and has a powder measure that handles extruded powders without modification.  I forgot to mention the LnL bushings allow one to swap out a single die while keeping the rest of one's setup, for even more convenience.  As an aside, I load my High Power 600 yard line cartridges on my Hornady LnL AP, something most Dillon owners do on their single stages.  But I found there was no accuracy difference with the LnL.  My buddy still loads his 600 yard stuff on his Rock Chucker.  There's reasons for these kinda things.

"You don't need to have any more than 1 powder measure if that's your thing. Loosen 2 bolts and it comes right off so you can install it on another set. It takes all of about 15 seconds to remove and install it on another."

But the fact is, signficant amounts of Dillon owners find the hassle of changing over the powder measure over time enough that they do buy additional powder measures.  My buddy did.  I, on the other hand, bought two micrometer inserts, one rifle, one pistol ten years ago when I bought my press and have never felt the need to buy another powder measure for the press.  Additionally, my buddy often comments on how much he likes my powder measure.  At least he did, until he started buying Hornady measures for his Dillon.  I think that pretty much says it all, along with all the pictures online of guys posting Dillon presses with multiple powder measures.  Most Hornady owners pictures show only one measure.  To be honest, I can't think of a single time I've seen a Hornady press with two measures or any other measure than the one that came with the press.

"No, it isn't. I'm trying to start a discussion about the technical differences between the two presses because, as I've shown, they are pretty much the same price. "

1. Die handling:  Hornady uses LnL bushings, Dillon uses a toolhead.  LnL bushings allow for changing individual dies/etc. while leaving other stuff on board.  LnL bushings are extremely fast to do caliber conversions with.  Faster than a Dillon tool head.  LnL bushings allow the brass to center better in the die, providing better runout on rifle cartridges.  Can't say about pistol cartridges, since I only shoot IDPA and don't measure pistol cartridge runout.

2.  Powder measures:  Hornady uses a rotating cylinder very similar to many excellent powder measures on the market, such as RCBS Uniflow.  Dillon uses a sliding bar measure, similar to many older measures who for the most part are no longer sold, except on shotgun reloaders and Dillon presses.

3.  Casefeeder:  Hornady's casefeeder is damn near the same piece of crap Dillon sells.  Except for the part next to the press, which is a bit better design.  Both have that same cheesy motor and same cheesy plastic disks.  About a draw and I suspect the Hornady casefeeder is made by Dillon, hence the high price on the casefeeder.  

4.  Case retention:  Hornady uses a spring, Dillon uses pins.  The spring can be damaged if you're not careful and the pins can be lost.  That said, I haven't damaged a spring in about 9 years, but my buddy has dropped and spent hours searching for pins over that time.  Overall, it's a wash if your reloading room is clean.

5.  Advance mechanism:  Hornady's is a bit smoother, but both work very well.

6.  Size:  The Hornady is a larger press and is easier to get one's hands into.

"If the Hornady press is mechanically the equal (features, design, quality, durability, ergonomics, etc.) of the Dillon press, then I, an XL650 owner, would have no problems recommending it over my press."

One thing I find consistently on the net is Dillon owners assuming the Hornady "might" just be equal to the Dillon.  After ten years of reloading on both and having owned a 550 before the LnL, I can honestly say I think the Hornady LnL AP is superior to the Dillon 650.  You would have to go to a 1050 to get a better press than the Hornady.  The superiority of the Dillon, I've found, is a myth.  It's a great press, but not better or even as good as the Hornady.  I'm not saying that because I'm in love with the Hornady.  I'm saying it because I've found, over years of time comparing and contrasting the two, it's the truth.  If the Dillon had been better, I'd have long ago gotten rid of my LnL and gotten a 650, as I'm all about best value for the money and could care less who and how many people bought what.

"There isn't anything magical about Dillon's products. I'm really interested in the Hornady brand as it could be a better deal for those looking for a quality progressive with a casefeeder. It's true that many Dillon owners get 'nuts' with a separate complete toolhead for every caliber (hell, I've got a complete toolhead setup for 40sw and another one for 10mm). I guess we feel that a bit more money to get the convenience we want is worth it but that approach isn't for everyone."

The really odd thing about the Hornady is one can have the convenience, without buying all those toolheads and powder measures.  The LnL bushing system and powder measure really is that much more convenient.  And yes, I've done caliber conversions on both presses.

"Right now I can't in good conscience recommend another brand of progressive press because of the information I have about the issues with Lee's Loadmaster and Pro 1000, RCBS' 2000, Lyman offerings (they don't make a progressive that I'm aware of) and the previous versions of Hornady's LnL."

Not sure which version you're talking about, but mine is ten years old.  During that time, I've seen Hornady steadily and consistently work to improve their product.  I've not seen a single change out of the Dillon line.  The version I have has been better than my buddy's 650.  I'm sure the latest version is significantly better in many aspects.

"In a previous thread (What is the ultimate reloader???) I asked the following questions.  I honestly don't know so I'm asking those of you that have one."

"Are Hornady presses as durable as Dillon's?"

Mine is ten years old and I've used it constantly.  It looks and acts the same as the day I bought it.  I do period maintenance such as removing old lubricant and replacing it with new fairly frequently, but the main thing that's kept it new is the primer disposal system, that keeps spent primer residue away from the press.

"How do they hold up after say, 100,000 rds?"

I don't know how many rounds I've loaded, but I would guess that many ore more.  Looks and performs like new.

"How good is their powder measure with different powders?"

Basically, it is a much larger version of an RCBS Uniflow, except it's more heavy duty and has a huge hopper.  Handles every single thing I've ever put in it, especially extruded powders.

"Are there really consistent problems with their primer feed?"

Not that I've seen, unless it's not adjusted correctly.  But you only have to do that once when you first set it up.  You do however, have to keep it clean and free of debris.  But you have to do those two things with any progressive you buy.  Not rocket science.  If you set up the timing and adjust the primer feed (simple things to do) they hold their adjustment and the press runs smooth as butter.  

Of course, if you don't have the minimum mechanical aptitude to adjust and setup an automatic advance progressive, you should be buying a 550, not a 650 or a LnL AP.  After all, these are machines and do need some minimal adjustments when setup.

"What is their resale value?"

I have no idea.  I have no interest in selling mine, though the latest version is tempting.  My son is threatening to steal mine, so that might be a way to justify buying another.

"I'm still truly interested in honest answers to those questions."

There ya go.  Honest answers.  If I didn't truly believe in what I've said, I wouldn't post what I've said.

"I've got a neighbor interested in reloading. He's using my 650 currently but he'll soon be considering a press setup for himself. I want to recommend the best value for him as he's a bit tight on money with a family growing up. If the LnL turns out to be a better candidate than a Dillon, I want to be able to honestly recommend it to him over my setup."

Before you going recommending a progressive setup for him, you might want to consider how much reloading componentry he can afford.  IF one can only afford a thousand rounds of components, makes no difference how fast one's press is.  Because after an hour or so, it's sitting idle quite a long time.  If he's got kids, I strongly suggest you steer him towards two excellent values in reloading presses/setups right now:

1.  The Lee Classic Turret - it's as good as any Hornady or Dillon offering quality wise, is reasonably quick at 200 plus rounds an hour, has excellent primer disposal, keeping the press clean and is very affordable, leaving the young person with money to buy components.  It's made of cast iron and steel.  An excellent value for a new reloader.  It's fast enough that if I had purchased this years ago, I would have never needed a progressive.

2.  The Lee Classic Cast single stage press - I had this setup for a month next to my Rock Chucker.  In the end, I sold my Rock Chucker, this press is that much better.  

With those two presses, a couple of Pro Auto Disk measures and an RCBS Uniflow, your young reloader would be setup for a lot of fine reloading at a very affordable price.  Later, when he's got more cash available, can afford more and his children no longer need diapers, etc., he can upgrade to a progressive.

I sincerely believe that 90% of reloaders out there would have all their needs easily and happily met with the above setup.

Regards,

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the information.  On the whole I think your opinions are fairly straight forward.  The only thing I find in error is your opening statement, "But since one can make one out of brass rod or dowel rod one gets from the hardware store for a couple of dollars, assigning $23.00 is adding false economy."  The $23 was for both the rod and the warning buzzer.  And, per Hornady in my recent phone call, no, they don't offer the rod.

In addition, you overlooked the cost of caliber specific powder through dies for pistol conversions and different case plates for the casefeeder (same as Dillon).  Also, I don't think I have one caliber that, when converting to it, I don't have to replace all the dies so for me 2 pins and the whole toolhead comes off works easier than taking out each die one at a time.  BTW, my personal preference is to not have the individual die approach as I'm world famous for losing things and I like them all together on one toolhead so I have a better chance of finding them (but that's my individual preference).  

Seems that Hornady's powder measure design might be superior to Dillon's at first glance but since I polished my .233 powder die as I wrote in a thread, I've had a chance to try some extruded powder and I was surprised at how consistent the throws are now.  Hornady's rotary approach is a different one but not necessarily a better one.

Truly, the number of powder die setups one has isn't a function of the press but rather a function of the laziness of the press owner.  I for one stated that I have a complete setup (including powder measure) for each caliber I shoot (even a separate one for 40sw and 10mm).  Why?  Because I'm lazy, I'm older and don't want to be bothered with adjusting things, I can afford them, and I've got room for them.

As I said, I'm not tied to Dillon and who knows, I might just recommend the LnL to my noobie reloading friend, however, he has said that when he gets a press he wants one like mine so that he'll always have a source for answers.

I think using just the numbers, you find that the costs are pretty close for ONE CALIBER.  When you start looking at the ability to change from one caliber to another fairly quickly, then you see Hornady being less costly.  The bushings cost about $3.50 each and are less when you buy in quantities (<$30 for 10, for example), and that means a big savings in toolheads right there.  When I got the casefeed system for my birthday, my wife said "just buy all the plates while you're at it," so I did.  (God, I love my wife!)  Between buying them along with the casefeeder from Midsouth (they had the best price at the time), I saved a LOT of money.

And I've saved a lot too by shopping for shellplates.  I've gotten about half of my shellplates from Cabellas' "Bargain Cave" where they were marked down to anything between $15 and $3!  There was nothing wrong with them, they'd just been returned or the packages damaged...

I looked at this issue very carefully when I was deciding which way to go, and being able to get the Hornady system from a variety of vendors for a substantial discount off MSRP was only part of it.  The whole "toolhead" issue makes Dillon look very attractive, but the convenience of the toolhead system costs more overall, at least as far as I've been able to see.

Buy what YOU want, reload and be happy.  

/thread

True.  But don't we all want to boast about how we made "the best choice?"

Great post Dave.

As for longevity, I am still using my Hornady Pro-Jector, the predecessor to the LNL. I bought it 15 years ago, used. Although I plan on buying the LNL after xmas. I don't think the Dillon is a bad press, but it is silly to watch the fits the owners of them take when it comes to what press is better.

I have had my Hornady since '98 or '99 and have probably put around 50k rounds through it without any problems, I just finally ruined my case retaining spring the other night, I will order a few from Midway at $1.89 each. Earlier this year I took the pivots apart for the first time to clean and lube it ,there are no zerks on my old model, I found no signs of wear on the shafts or any mating surfaces so I would say the press is good for several hundred thousand rounds if lubed once in a while.

I have the original priming and case eject system and the work without issue, I can feel the lack resistance when I run out of primers so I have no use for an early warning system.

I have almost bought the case feeder several times and am considering it again because it's on sale now, but I have a real hard time finding the value of it. It doesn't take that long to put a case in, it seems a bullet feeder would free up more time, do I really need ammo faster than a round every 5 or 6 seconds?

I made up a primer follower rod to make sure the last couple actually fed without problems-I use an old 9mm case as a weight and the rod is just long enough that when the thing is empty, the 9mm case almost touches the top of the primer magazine, so there's no need for a buzzer.

You'd be surprised at how much faster everything is with the case feeder.  Sure, I'd like a bullet feeder too, but with the case feeder, my hand only has to do ONE thing instead of two, and that's an amazing time and effort saver.

I have a Projector I bought new in '95.

I'm close to 100,000 and it's still going strong.

Most Dillon users have no clue, they just drink the kool-aid.

I have set up a few Dillons for friends, and they have issues too.

I would get a Hornady again and can afford either.

well Dave you can get upset at what I've posted but all of this is "opinion".the only fact is these are all excellent tools for producing a quality product, and you posted your experience with 1 xl650.
since you made it sound like junk and COsteve wasn't gonna step up, I did.if you can put it up you can take it.the xl650 produces quality ammunition.if it didn't there would be no Dillon presses.I think your buddy needs to have his looked at if it is putting out rounds with excessive runout.that is not an indication that a dillon product is incapable.there are people in my circle that speak the same of hornadys presses.

this would be a clue

I think we should all just be happy that we have not one but many good presses to choose from.  We live in a great country when these sorts of things can occupy our time and energy.

mrrick,

Dave is entitled to his opinion on the value of his press as we are with ours.  I rebutted the factually incorrect element of his post and left it to the individual readers to decided if they shared his view on those opinions he provided.

BTW, why do many Dillon owners feel so offended when someone has something good to say about another brand of press?  If it works for him then fine for him.  It seems to me that this is more of a Ford vs Chevy kind of thing.

Life's too short to get one's panties in a bunch over whether or not the rest of the world likes something you purchased and are happy with.  I've gone from 550B to XL650 w/casefeeder instead of Lee, Hornady, or RCBS and I'm perfectly satisfied with my choice.

Anyone that can get .1 gr accuracy and 90% dead on is using ball powder,,not stick powder,, otherwise, I call BS
I have all the tweaks done on mine, and no way does the Dillon get that accuracy with stick powder.
'Borg

I'm a car guy, and that's a great analogy.

mrrick,

Answers to your comments below, in Dillon blue, for your pleasure.  Don't go getting all Dillon Blue wound up and emotional on me though.



well Dave you can get upset at what I've posted but all of this is "opinion".

Nah, getting upset over internet silliness ain't worth the time.  True, they are my opinions, but that's all any of us have to offer.  That said, my "opinions" are based on not only my buddy's 650, but commentary of other Dillon owners at many, many high power ranges over years and years of shooting.  Most commented they didn't use their Dillons for loading at the 600 yard line, because they said it didn't meet their accuracy requirements.  I did use mine Hornady LnL for loading at the 600 yard line because it DID meet my needs.  That's not an opinion.  That's a fact.

the only fact is these are all excellent tools for producing a quality product, and you posted your experience with 1 xl650.

More than one (my High Power buddies) I just mentioned one specifically.  Your mistake in that you assumed there was only one.  Additionally, I read and pay attention to what's going on on many reloading forums.  Apparently, you have not.

since you made it sound like junk and COsteve wasn't gonna step up, I did.if you can put it up you can take it.

You read my commentary to mean the Dillon was junk.  I never said it was junk.  I simply stated that when compared directly to the Hornady in several areas, the Dillon was not quite as good.  It's a excellent press for reloading pistol and does well with rifle at shorter distances.

the xl650 produces quality ammunition.if it didn't there would be no Dillon presses.I think your buddy needs to have his looked at if it is putting out rounds with excessive runout.that is not an indication that a dillon product is incapable.there are people in my circle that speak the same of hornadys presses.

I didn't say he had excessive runout.  What I said was the Hornady produces better runout.  There's a difference.  Had you read closer, you would have seen that.  And I'm not the only one getting better runout, others online have posted similar results.  The fella that put out the .pdf on comparing the Hornady, Dillon and Lee got the same results.  You may claim otherwise, but if your buddies have their press timed up correctly (an easy thing to do) their runout will beat the Dillons.


this would be a clue

Attempting to label someone clueless when you have no actual experience comparing the two is pretty is pretty silly.

Regards,

Dave

Dave In Flowery Branch GA on the High Road forum and Cast Boolits forum

CoSteve,

Answers in context below.

Interesting how this thread has gone.  I started out with my observation that the LnL and 650, when casefeeders are included, are similarly priced (which is true).  The difference is virtually nil when a buzzer and follower rod are added to the Hornady primer feed setup as comes std with the Dillon.  What's also true is currently Hornady gives a bonus for 1,000 bullets of your choice.  What I've also found out is that caliber change pricing can be cheaper on the Hornady than for the 650.  

Note I said "it can be cheaper" rather than "it always is" cheaper.  I said this because Hornady has extra cost powder measure drums that most buy for different calibers and Hornady's powder measure is considerably more expensive than Dillon's.  So it depends upon what the individual reloader wants to purchase for his/her setup.  

Dillons are blue and Hornadys are red.  So much for fact.  

What I believe I've discovered is:

The Hornady powder measure is, by design, more accurate when using extruded powders.  Anecdotal reports seem to confirm this. There is a disagreement on whether the Dillon powder measure can be 'tuned' to duplicate Hornady's extruded powder accuracy.  

Both presses appear to be built with long term use in mind.  Both seem to be quality machines with adequate engineering support to address discovered shortcomings.  

As I stated above, Hornady doesn't offer a low primer alarm and I believe that to be a significant oversight.  Adding one is a matter of purchasing the Dillon unit and then performing whatever modifications are necessary.  

Further, there seems to me to be a different mindset between Hornady and Dillon users on what is 'convenient' for them.  Hornady users rave about the ability to remove a single die with ease while Dillon users rave about the ease of removing the entire toolhead.

So much for what I believe.

Dave states that in his experience, 600yd shooters don't use their Dillons while LnL users (him) do.  I'll take his word for it.  There are plenty of statics that demonstrate that Dillon presses are the overwhelming favorites over Hornady at IPSC, IPDA, USPSA, CMP, NRA Action Pistol, and GSSF matches, sometimes by close to 100 to 1.

What's the bottom line?  It's really up to the individual on what they want to use.  Both presses appear to have strengths and weakness and so its up to the individual to decide.  Price alone isn't a significant determinate but rather how one decides to outfit their setups.

Regards,

Dave

I always have a good laugh when people are fighting (words) regarding brand loyalty/preferences.  I work hard for my money, therefore, I want to get the best value for my hard earned green.  I just purchased the Hornady LNL AP (current model with the EZject) for $380 shipped.  Also got the 1000 .45ACP XTP bullets (cheapest I can find with shipping if purchase the bullets alone is $250 shipped) for a cost of $21.XX shipping fee.  Got 3 shellplates (9mm, .45acp and .223) and 10 extra die bushings for $120 shipped.

Summary (including shipping)

Press = $380
3 Shellplates + 10 Bushings = $120
Shipping for free bullets = $21
Grand total = $521
Value of free bullets = $250

Net cost: $271

That is my net cost ready to load 3 calibers.  I use cheap Lee dies and is extremely happy with them.  I don't think you can beat this setup for 3 calibers with a Dillon XL650 for $271.  I am not a high volume shooter (don't need the case feeder or any other fancy setup).

It's your money. Spend it wisely and happy shooting.

Yg

Dave, I'm sorry but I have to call BS on a one of your points above as being just plain untrue.

I said, "Further, there seems to me to be a different mindset between Hornady and Dillon users on what is 'convenient' for them.  Hornady users rave about the ability to remove a single die with ease while Dillon users rave about the ease of removing the entire toolhead."

You said, "Again, it's not just about removing a single die.  I can swap all the dies faster on my Hornady than I can swap a toolhead on my buddy's 650 or my 550 and I'm experienced reloading with both for years and years.  Not just a little faster, a lot, several minutes of time."

You obviously haven't ever changed a toolhead on a Dillon because the process takes less time than it took me to type this sentence.

You also have speculated on the future and not stuck to the present.  Dillon may make a new powder measure and Hornady LnLs may make inroads into the IPSC, USPSA, CMP, NRA Action Pistol, and GSSF matches but neither has of today.

Finely, I said, "Both presses appear to have strengths and weakness and so its up to the individual to decide.  Price alone isn't a significant determinate but rather how one decides to outfit their setups."

You said, "But price can be an important determinant.  Most reloaders do not need the speed of a casefeeder for their reloading and many will never buy one.  When the casefeeder is taken out of consideration, the price difference becomes significant between the LnL and the 650, with the 650 being much more expensive when casefeeders are not considered.  

If one's volumes do not demand a casefeeder and one is shooting a lot of rifle, take a hard look at the Hornady LnL, you'll be glad you did."

The problem with your line of thinking is two fold.  1st, that was the basic premise of my original post; comparing the LnL + it's casefeeder with an XL650 + it's casefeeder.  2nd, your supposition that rifle shooters can't benefit from a casefeeder is just plain wrong.

In fact, the casefeeder provides the largest process speed increase over presses without casefeeders when processing necked rifle cases because one has to process each case twice; once for case prep and once for reloading.  Loading each case twice through one's press by hand vs dumping them into the casefeeder for each step results in an enormous increase in the total time it takes to reload.

I know, because using my 550B without a casefeeder on .223 ammo is the very thing that convinced me to move to a 650 w/casefeeder.  Once I got it my throughput rate of .223 ammo increased dramatically.

LNL is cheaper up front.
XL650 is cheaper in the long run.

And which Dillon press would that be? You probably don't even know with your facts. In my experience in shooting IPSC back 15 years ago, most of the professional shooters used the 1050, mostly because of the volume it produces (and probably that they were given to them by Dillon)




go back to sleep, we'll wake you when it's over

This thread is making my decision to buy an auto-indexing-case feeding progressive a little more difficult.....

Go back to your cars.

Go back to the posts hapi and I made on the 15th.  Buy what you like and can afford after researching as much as you have the patience for.  NEITHER choice will be "bad."  I personally went for Hornady because it was somewhat less expensive for me to get into, and because I thought I'd need 5 stations rather than 4 (which has not turned out to be the case).

And don't let a lot of surly pukes like us, arguing the merits of this or that steer you.  Make your decision based on YOUR needs.

That sir, is the very point I've been trying to make all along.

Believe it or not, my posts really did sort of agree with you.  I see differences between the two systems as more style than anything else...

I couldn't agree more.

C'mon, guys,, get a room. LOL
G Porter,, Have you tried using a lube die with your L&L?
Just got one in and was wondering what lube you are using.
Thought I'd try my lanolin/alcohol mix
'Borg

I have the RCBS lube dies (1, 2, and 3; I can't see getting #4 considering the calibers it's for).  I have been using the supplied Case Lube 2, and I'm not yet happy with how it works.  Waiting 30 minutes for the lube to saturate the felt ring is one thing, but I'd actually like the felt to act like it's saturated.  I'm considering thinning the lube with alcohol, but I haven't had the opportunity to play with it yet.

I figured that the RCBS would take too long too, thats why I am going to try the mix first.
'Borg

I did a test to see whether just loading up the RCBS die with lube would "saturate" the felt ring to my satisfaction, or if it would work better with some 91% alcohol in it.  Neither seemed to do a very good job of making the felt feel like it was even slippery.  

I also learned that the squeeze bottle tips they use in their lube bottles have a TINY hole, so it's hard to get too much through it.  Though you can indeed apply enough pressure to pop the tip out and make a huge mess!  

I'm considering a medicine syringe (my vet gives them out with oral meds) instead of the squeeze tip to load the dies, and probably will mix the lube and alcohol first.  Spray lube mixtures have plenty of alcohol in 'em.  I'm thinking of somewhere around a 50-50 mixture of lube and my trusty 91% alcohol to start with.

Been there, done that