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Posted: 5/21/2016 10:23:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Up until the fateful day I had read other people's stories about visits from the ATF and figured it would never happen to me but I also wondered how it all went down. Now I can tell you. They probably have a ballpark idea of your schedule and just knock on your door. My son answered it and the nice looking young men didn't turn out to be there to share Mormon gospel. By the time I got to the door they were already inside, they are kinda slick that way. He has since received remedial training about letting people into the house. Never again. A bunch statements about who they are and some questions while my wife is then coming to find out WTF is going on and I'm just trying to get the family to go away so I can figure out how to deal with the situation. Everybody always says to strong arm them. Tell them to get a warrant while you get a lawyer and never talk to the man is nice on the Internet but let me tell you that's a little easier said than done when they are there in your house with a bunch of very important looking paperwork asking very specific questions that tell you they already mostly know the answers to.
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Posted: 5/21/2016 10:23:56 PM EDT
[#2]
I did end up getting a lawyer the next day but at that point it was basically a formality. Like I said the agents knew exactly what they were looking for and they wanted the auto sear machine gun parts for the PS90. Fortunately I had my shooter as a bedside home defense gun and I didn't have to crack open the safe. The other hammer and sear set in the garage. I'm not sure how to describe the exchange as it was very tense and awkward but I let them pick up the gun and the first thing they did was clear it and pull the hammer pack. Again they seemed to know exactly what they were looking for and I just did my best to keep my mouth shut to the max extent possible as they messed around with the hammer pack I guess to see if it was somehow full auto. Then a bunch more talking which is all kind of a blur but basically they were looking for me to say anything about making it full auto. They didn't ask anything about the seller on gunbroker but there were a few about if I had received a P90 manual and conversion instructions from another member which I had not.
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Posted: 5/21/2016 10:24:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Everyone might say they wouldn't play ball if the ATF wanted to take just one of your guns but reality is that when you are in this situation and they tell you that they are taking a gun it starts sounding not so bad. Just a gun and I'm not being arrested or served or anything? Awesome. I got some paperwork and signed some stuff that basically said they were taking the gun, they said they had to because the parts were installed and the other aluminum hammer and sear set. I had some other spare parts including the hammer pack from my safe queen right next to it in the garage and they didn't seem to care. I didn't see the time exactly when they arrived but it barely seemed more than 87 hours and they were ready to leave and said they would be in touch.
I got a lawyer first thing the next morning, it was all kind of a blur as I was pretty freaked out about what would happen when they got back in touch. There would be repercussions at my job if I was being investigated for anything like this, even the time to deal with it could seriously impact things much less being potentially convicted. The lawyer helped calm my nerves somewhat but ultimately didn't change the situation that much. When the agents got back in touch all they wanted was some papers signed reaffirming that I had never used the parts to make a machine gun and the lawyer basically just told me what I already knew that I should sign. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 10:25:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Now I'm sure I'm gonna get some questions about why didn't I ask if they could just take the hammer pack and not the whole gun. That's again one of those things that was kind of a blur as it all happened. After they looked at and tested whatever they were testing when they first got their hands on it they kinda half ass put it back together again. The subject was brought up about if they were taking it and the back and forth seemed like kind of a test about just what I might have done or know. It had an AMP trigger but fortunately I didn't have a remarked selector or anything else otherwise who knows how the situation would have unfolded. This stuff has been played over a lot in my head.
I would like my gun back but I'm more inclined to take it as a lesson learned and buy a new PS90 to replace it. I feel like I'm free and clear at this point and no reason to press the issue with the ATF. The lawyer didn't really do anything significant except calm my nerves and cost me way more than a PS90 and I'm guessing that it would be just throwing good money after bad to go after them for it. He wasn't a firearms attorney, there don't seem to be any local to me, but it was nice having his reassurance that I wasn't about to have to pepper my angus. It may not be right that I lost my gun and parts but truth is that I'm just glad to be in the clear and not having my life destroyed by legal issues. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 10:25:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Now that I have it off my chest it feels a lot better. I'm not sure what this was all about and assumed I would eventually hear some other stories of this but so far there has been nobody else out there or maybe their encounter didn't end like mine and you can't post about it. What I will say is if you bought an aluminum hammer and sear you might think about how you store it. Like maybe in a drawer by the front door. When they got their hands on the two I had they didn't really care about much else. They didn't ask about my other PS90 and I wasn't about to volunteer anything more but I'm very relieved I hadn't put the parts in it as it would have involved opening the safe and pulling a bunch of guns out.
Good luck out there everybody. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 10:26:54 PM EDT
[#6]
So was this a flashbang visit or did they schedule an appointment?
Edit - Sorry about the ordeal. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 10:39:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Are they planning on testing the gun? Is there any chance you will catch charges in the future, or did the paper you signed address that?
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Posted: 5/21/2016 11:09:00 PM EDT
[#8]
As far as I can tell I'm free and clear. It's not as if I'm gonna call the ATF and ask them and I'm not interested in paying my lawyer to chase it down any further. His feeling (which is of course just a feeling) is that they didn't find anything and they have my gun and parts so they are just moving on. For all I know they could have tested it but they weren't going to find anything. There was nothing questionable functionally with my gun and you cant make a PS90 slam fire no matter how soft the primer since it has a hefty firing pin spring. I was going to post redacted pics of the paperwork but decided not to at the last minute. As it is I'm going between the relief of sharing this story and the panic of what could happen if they change their mind and go full gestapo and make stuff up. Nobody told me not to say anything except my lawyer and that was months ago when the situation was still uncertain.
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Posted: 5/21/2016 11:16:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Wow, this sounds crazy. Sorry you had to go through all of that and thanks for posting the story. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 1:26:28 AM EDT
[#10]
So why isn't the atf at every machine shop in America........pick on the little guy to keep a job........ founding fathers would send those boys back to sender.
OP. I'm glad you didn't get arrested or worse..... Just a sad story America's freedom is a oxymoron |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 3:19:40 AM EDT
[#11]
How is the guy on GB still selling those parts? Is the seller actually someone from the ATF? Something sounds fucky with the whole thing
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Posted: 5/22/2016 3:30:26 AM EDT
[#12]
I know nothing about the ps90. What is wrong with the parts purchased? FA parts?
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Posted: 5/22/2016 3:34:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know nothing about the ps90. What is wrong with the parts purchased? FA parts? And Who's the guy selling the parts? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 3:49:52 AM EDT
[#14]
OP..to be clear..? So...you purchased parts that could be used to alter an existing firearm to perform other functions not exactly kosher in the eyes of the federal govt. for a firearm you actually have in possession, from A company or person that was specifically being watched by said govt agents..? Said govt agents then found you, your firearm and said conversion parts in the same location at the same time ?
 .
And they chose to only confiscate some parts and a gun. Any idea how lucky you are ? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 7:49:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Did some googleing to find out what the OP is talking about. Apparently with the gen 1 and 2 hammer you can do the ole "file the firing pin and it goes full auto" thing and it's supposed to be pretty easy.
Apparently the ATF has an Easter egg hunt type investigation going on with the seller of the parts in question and the OP got caught up in it. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 9:34:37 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP..to be clear..? So...you purchased parts that could be used to alter an existing firearm to perform other functions not exactly kosher in the eyes of the federal govt. for a firearm you actually have in possession, from A company or person that was specifically being watched by said govt agents..? Said govt agents then found you, your firearm and said conversion parts in the same location at the same time ? .
And they chose to only confiscate some parts and a gun. Any idea how lucky you are ? Not really it will still only function as semi auto. The gen 1,2,3 ps90 already come with the safety sear, as FN calls it. But yes it is used as the auto sear in the p90. The gen 4 does not. The gen 3 has the hammer notch that would catch the safety sear much further back than in a gen 1. The aluminum parts are modeled off a gen 1. Which people own and no one is knocking on their door. All OP did was replace plastic parts with aluminum parts. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 9:45:49 AM EDT
[#17]
This is confusing as none of the parts listed are anything more than aluminum replacement parts, they only exist because FN doesn't feel like selling spare hammer packs. I have no idea why these guys visited the OP as the guy who makes these is no fly by night guy, these parts are available through several websites as well as gunbroker. It's troubling that these agents showed up as they did with no clear proof of a law being broken.
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Posted: 5/22/2016 9:49:07 AM EDT
[#18]
It APPEARS that the OP didn't violate any laws.
FN is on it's FOURTH trigger pack revision since the PS90 hit the market, anyone want to guess WHY they've changed the design FOUR TIMES!!! The aftermarket hammer and sear he's referencing is anodized aluminum and is marketed as a way to reduce trigger pull. BUT, the aluminum trigger and sear will change a Gen II or Gen III trigger pack to a Gen I. Based on reviews and comments on fnforums.net, there are quite a few of these sets installed and this is the FIRST ATF raid on them. All of this being said... I have a stock Gen III pack that mine shipped with and it does everything I need, pull the trigger it goes bang ONE TIME! I have no idea what's going on with the situation involving the OP, but based on working cases with ATF over the last 32 years, IMHO there is something not being told. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 9:51:10 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is confusing as none of the parts listed are anything more than aluminum replacement parts, they only exist because FN doesn't feel like selling spare hammer packs. I have no idea why these guys visited the OP as the guy who makes these is no fly by night guy, these parts are available through several websites as well as gunbroker. It's troubling that these agents showed up as they did with no clear proof of a law being broken. Or maybe the OP is fishing for his new masters. 
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Posted: 5/22/2016 9:52:47 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not really it will still only function as semi auto. The gen 1,2,3 ps90 already come with the safety sear, as FN calls it. But yes it is used as the auto sear in the p90. The gen 4 does not. The gen 3 has the hammer notch that would catch the safety sear much further back than in a gen 1. The aluminum parts are modeled off a gen 1. Which people own and no one is knocking on their door. All OP did was replace plastic parts with aluminum parts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP..to be clear..? So...you purchased parts that could be used to alter an existing firearm to perform other functions not exactly kosher in the eyes of the federal govt. for a firearm you actually have in possession, from A company or person that was specifically being watched by said govt agents..? Said govt agents then found you, your firearm and said conversion parts in the same location at the same time ? .
And they chose to only confiscate some parts and a gun. Any idea how lucky you are ? Not really it will still only function as semi auto. The gen 1,2,3 ps90 already come with the safety sear, as FN calls it. But yes it is used as the auto sear in the p90. The gen 4 does not. The gen 3 has the hammer notch that would catch the safety sear much further back than in a gen 1. The aluminum parts are modeled off a gen 1. Which people own and no one is knocking on their door. All OP did was replace plastic parts with aluminum parts. Then OP should retain counsel and get after them ! |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 10:03:38 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know nothing about the ps90. What is wrong with the parts purchased? FA parts? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 10:33:29 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Remove one spring and the original trigger packs turn into a full auto pack. I have no personal experience but that is what my SOT buddy told me. My understanding is that an SOT can legally use the old trigger packs to easily make a post sample machine gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I know nothing about the ps90. What is wrong with the parts purchased? FA parts? I'm looking at a gen 3 pack right now and can tell you that's not how it works. Yea they are relatively easy with the correct paperwork and basic understanding. But removing a spring isn't going to do it. There are 3 main springs inside the pack and 2 of them serve for dual purposes. So you can't just remove one. Plus other parts are needed. So I'm not entirely sure what the ATF could have gotten him on. It's no different if he went out and bought a gen 1 pack. ETA: and if you have an FFL with the correct paperwork you can buy a factory full auto pack for $200 something. No need to even convert it. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 10:43:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm looking at a gen 3 pack right now and can tell you that's not how it works. Yea they are relatively easy with the correct paperwork and basic understanding. But removing a spring isn't going to do it. There are 3 main springs inside the pack and 2 of them serve for dual purposes. So you can't just remove one. Plus other parts are needed. So I'm not entirely sure what the ATF could have gotten him on. It's no different if he went out and bought a gen 1 pack. ETA: and if you have an FFL with the correct paperwork you can buy a factory full auto pack for $200 something. No need to even convert it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know nothing about the ps90. What is wrong with the parts purchased? FA parts? I'm looking at a gen 3 pack right now and can tell you that's not how it works. Yea they are relatively easy with the correct paperwork and basic understanding. But removing a spring isn't going to do it. There are 3 main springs inside the pack and 2 of them serve for dual purposes. So you can't just remove one. Plus other parts are needed. So I'm not entirely sure what the ATF could have gotten him on. It's no different if he went out and bought a gen 1 pack. ETA: and if you have an FFL with the correct paperwork you can buy a factory full auto pack for $200 something. No need to even convert it. Full Auto P90 trigger packs show up on eBay once and awhile. That's begging for a visit. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 10:45:38 AM EDT
[#24]
Anyone have a diagram of a gen 1 pack?
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Posted: 5/22/2016 10:54:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone have a diagram of a gen 1 pack? No, but an interesting fact, apparently the PS90 pack is an EXACT copy of a Steyr AUG trigger pack. Here's an ad that was posted on Armslist.... 
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Posted: 5/22/2016 10:59:14 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Full Auto P90 trigger packs show up on eBay once and awhile. That's begging for a visit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know nothing about the ps90. What is wrong with the parts purchased? FA parts? I'm looking at a gen 3 pack right now and can tell you that's not how it works. Yea they are relatively easy with the correct paperwork and basic understanding. But removing a spring isn't going to do it. There are 3 main springs inside the pack and 2 of them serve for dual purposes. So you can't just remove one. Plus other parts are needed. So I'm not entirely sure what the ATF could have gotten him on. It's no different if he went out and bought a gen 1 pack. ETA: and if you have an FFL with the correct paperwork you can buy a factory full auto pack for $200 something. No need to even convert it. Full Auto P90 trigger packs show up on eBay once and awhile. That's begging for a visit. The way my gunsmith, who has the proper FFL to manufacture full auto, explained it to me was that the packs themselves are not restricted although most places won't sell them to you without the paperwork. But if you have one of the full auto packs and own a ps90 you can be in for a world of shit, as far as the ATF is concerned. So I'm still not entirely sure what the registered part would be, like an auto sear for an AR. Or how it would be legal for non FFLs since non would be transferrable. But back to the OP if true it sounds like they were looking for something else, or more. Just the parts in aluminum, which are the same as anyone could buy in plastic in a gen 1,2 pack I don't think would do it. Maybe there is more to this story. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 11:07:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Also one of the pins, for the disconnector and sear, in the pack has a blind pin to prevent it from being removed. As another anti tamper measure.
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Posted: 5/22/2016 11:12:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also one of the pins, for the disconnector and sear, in the pack has a blind pin to prevent it from being removed. As another anti tamper measure. Correct, someone asked here awhile back how to remove the blind pin, ATF would consider modifying the pack to remove the blind pin "intent". |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 11:19:55 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone have a diagram of a gen 1 pack? Can't find a very good diagram. But you can see the 3 springs here at the bottom. 
One spring is for the sear and disconnector, another is for the hammer and safety sear, and the other is just for the hammer. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 1:33:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did some googleing to find out what the OP is talking about. Apparently with the gen 1 and 2 hammer you can do the ole "file the firing pin and it goes full auto" thing and it's supposed to be pretty easy. Apparently the ATF has an Easter egg hunt type investigation going on with the seller of the parts in question and the OP got caught up in it. That's about the sum of it. I tried to include all relevant details and if someone has a specific question go ahead but just saying that there must be more to the story isn't all that helpful. I also posted the whole story on FN forum and it got shut down by the same moderator who emailed me the P90 manual several years ago. As I mentioned they asked about him but I hadn't received anything other than just the PDF of the manual so I don't know what that was about. Hopefully this has been helpful for those who might have had a similar experience, you aren't the only one. If you have any of these aftermarket PS90 parts I would be wary about them. I don't know what is going on in the big picture but I think there are some misinformation being spread out there by people who are making money off this stuff. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 1:34:27 PM EDT
[#31]
If you no fuky fuky with the parts and the operated as they were designed then you need to get your gun back.
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Posted: 5/22/2016 1:47:45 PM EDT
[#32]
Maybe the issue is with constrctive intent.....putting parts that are a different Gen profile than what your are replacing?
For reference...from another forum...key diff, but not mentioned below, is that Gen3+ hammer is not the same as the Gen1/Gen2 hammer...there is a critical notch that was moved on the Gen3+: Gen 1: Black pack body, black hammer (some very early ones may have an orange hammer), OD green front sear, auto sear present. Gen 2: Gray pack body, black hammer, OD green or gray front sear, auto sear present. Gen 3: Gray pack body, gray hammer, gray front sear, auto sear present. Gen 4: Gray pack body, black, gray, or white hammer, gray front sear, no auto sear. (As JHS mentioned, the hammer in a Gen 4 may actually be black but the defining characteristic is that there is no auto sear.) Gen 1 to Gen 2: Old, black P90 style pack body to the gray pack body. Some Gen 2s get the gray front sear. Gen 2 to Gen 3: Black hammer replaced with gray (or sometimes white) hammer and all front sears are now gray. Gen 3 to Gen 4: The auto sear is removed. With this change, FN apparently began to use a variety of internal color variations, but all front sears will remain gray. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 1:53:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's about the sum of it. I tried to include all relevant details and if someone has a specific question go ahead but just saying that there must be more to the story isn't all that helpful. I also posted the whole story on FN forum and it got shut down by the same moderator who emailed me the P90 manual several years ago. As I mentioned they asked about him but I hadn't received anything other than just the PDF of the manual so I don't know what that was about. Hopefully this has been helpful for those who might have had a similar experience, you aren't the only one. If you have any of these aftermarket PS90 parts I would be wary about them. I don't know what is going on in the big picture but I think there are some misinformation being spread out there by people who are making money off this stuff. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Did some googleing to find out what the OP is talking about. Apparently with the gen 1 and 2 hammer you can do the ole "file the firing pin and it goes full auto" thing and it's supposed to be pretty easy. Apparently the ATF has an Easter egg hunt type investigation going on with the seller of the parts in question and the OP got caught up in it. That's about the sum of it. I tried to include all relevant details and if someone has a specific question go ahead but just saying that there must be more to the story isn't all that helpful. I also posted the whole story on FN forum and it got shut down by the same moderator who emailed me the P90 manual several years ago. As I mentioned they asked about him but I hadn't received anything other than just the PDF of the manual so I don't know what that was about. Hopefully this has been helpful for those who might have had a similar experience, you aren't the only one. If you have any of these aftermarket PS90 parts I would be wary about them. I don't know what is going on in the big picture but I think there are some misinformation being spread out there by people who are making money off this stuff. Because it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Which generation were your rifles? The gen 1,2,3 came with the "auto sear" from the factory in plastic. Why would they care if someone replaced the plastic pieces with aluminum? Why aren't they going around collecting all the plastic pieces? Even with those aluminum pieces installed in your gun it would still only function as semi-auto. I have full auto BCGs in ARs, it's the same principle. And to clarify I don't have one of the aluminum hammer/sear sets. I'm just trying to understand. And I obviously can't say exactly how I would have handled it, because I'm sure it was intimidating/scary and hind sight and all that but it seemed to have been handled poorly. If you did something illegal they would have charged you? No? But they didn't. So now they have your stuff. And why? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 1:57:55 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you no fuky fuky with the parts and the operated as they were designed then you need to get your gun back. Yeah, several people have mentioned that but financially it doesn't make sense. I can get the money together and either buy a new PS90 or pay a lawyer the same amount or more and probably get the gun back. As I mentioned in the first post there are all the things you might think you will do and talk about on the internet but when it happens to you sometimes it just doesn't make sense. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:00:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe the issue is with constrctive intent.....putting parts that are a different Gen profile than what your are replacing? For reference...from another forum...key diff, but not mentioned below, is that Gen3+ hammer is not the same as the Gen1/Gen2 hammer...there is a critical notch that was moved on the Gen3+: Gen 1: Black pack body, black hammer (some very early ones may have an orange hammer), OD green front sear, auto sear present. Gen 2: Gray pack body, black hammer, OD green or gray front sear, auto sear present. Gen 3: Gray pack body, gray hammer, gray front sear, auto sear present. Gen 4: Gray pack body, black, gray, or white hammer, gray front sear, no auto sear. (As JHS mentioned, the hammer in a Gen 4 may actually be black but the defining characteristic is that there is no auto sear.) Gen 1 to Gen 2: Old, black P90 style pack body to the gray pack body. Some Gen 2s get the gray front sear. Gen 2 to Gen 3: Black hammer replaced with gray (or sometimes white) hammer and all front sears are now gray. Gen 3 to Gen 4: The auto sear is removed. With this change, FN apparently began to use a variety of internal color variations, but all front sears will remain gray. And you could dremel a new notch in a gen 3 hammer. That would be constructing. There would be no other reason to do that other than the obvious. Replacing a plastic pice with an aluminum one is not the same thing, and will not make the rifle fire full auto. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:05:24 PM EDT
[#36]
The one that is gone is was a Gen 3, the one they didn't mess with is Gen 2. I don't know the logic behind a lot of the things that happen. Why are those arm braces that look like a stock legal on a AR pistol but an actual stock makes an SBR? I don't have an AR anymore but I remember there was a lot of controversy over full auto BCGs in those several years back but now nobody cares apparently. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:09:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Replacing a Gen 3 hammer with a Gen 2 hammer allows the forward sear to work in a Gen 3 pack. Agreed..it will take a little more than moving a notch to make it FA...but it seems it could be viewed as going towards constructive intent. So...would replacing an AR15 hammer with a FA hammer be going towards constructive intent?
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:13:27 PM EDT
[#38]
OP. You realize it may not be over..? Gun could be at tech and they are fucking with it !
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:15:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The one that is gone is was a Gen 3, the one they didn't mess with is Gen 2. I don't know the logic behind a lot of the things that happen. Why are those arm braces that look like a stock legal on a AR pistol but an actual stock makes an SBR? I don't have an AR anymore but I remember there was a lot of controversy over full auto BCGs in those several years back but now nobody cares apparently. Well the ATF came out an told people not to shoulder those braces as it would function as a stock. The ATF is a fucking shit show. So you already have a gen 2 with the notch in the same spot as the aluminum one? But somehow they think the aluminum one counts as intent? I would be on the phone with someone demanding my stuff back. That is absolutely ridiculous. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:22:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well the ATF came out an told people not to shoulder those braces as it would function as a stock. The ATF is a fucking shit show. So you already have a gen 2 with the notch in the same spot as the aluminum one? But somehow they think the aluminum one counts as intent? I would be on the phone with someone demanding my stuff back. That is absolutely ridiculous. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The one that is gone is was a Gen 3, the one they didn't mess with is Gen 2. I don't know the logic behind a lot of the things that happen. Why are those arm braces that look like a stock legal on a AR pistol but an actual stock makes an SBR? I don't have an AR anymore but I remember there was a lot of controversy over full auto BCGs in those several years back but now nobody cares apparently. Well the ATF came out an told people not to shoulder those braces as it would function as a stock. The ATF is a fucking shit show. So you already have a gen 2 with the notch in the same spot as the aluminum one? But somehow they think the aluminum one counts as intent? I would be on the phone with someone demanding my stuff back. That is absolutely ridiculous. I think the issues was that he installed a Gen1/Gen2 Hammer in a Gen3 pack. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:24:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, several people have mentioned that but financially it doesn't make sense. I can get the money together and either buy a new PS90 or pay a lawyer the same amount or more and probably get the gun back. As I mentioned in the first post there are all the things you might think you will do and talk about on the internet but when it happens to you sometimes it just doesn't make sense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you no fuky fuky with the parts and the operated as they were designed then you need to get your gun back. Yeah, several people have mentioned that but financially it doesn't make sense. I can get the money together and either buy a new PS90 or pay a lawyer the same amount or more and probably get the gun back. As I mentioned in the first post there are all the things you might think you will do and talk about on the internet but when it happens to you sometimes it just doesn't make sense. Here is what is confusing. What was your attorney supposed to do? (see below) They confiscated your firearm. What was the legal authority? Did you sign a property receipt? What does it instruct you to do? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:30:10 PM EDT
[#42]
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I think the issues was that he installed a Gen1/Gen2 Hammer in a Gen3 pack. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The one that is gone is was a Gen 3, the one they didn't mess with is Gen 2. I don't know the logic behind a lot of the things that happen. Why are those arm braces that look like a stock legal on a AR pistol but an actual stock makes an SBR? I don't have an AR anymore but I remember there was a lot of controversy over full auto BCGs in those several years back but now nobody cares apparently. Well the ATF came out an told people not to shoulder those braces as it would function as a stock. The ATF is a fucking shit show. So you already have a gen 2 with the notch in the same spot as the aluminum one? But somehow they think the aluminum one counts as intent? I would be on the phone with someone demanding my stuff back. That is absolutely ridiculous. I think the issues was that he installed a Gen1/Gen2 Hammer in a Gen3 pack. And he could buy a complete gen 1 or 2 trigger pack. Is that intent? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:32:10 PM EDT
[#43]
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OP. You realize it may not be over..? Gun could be at tech and they are fucking with it ! That thought haunts me at times but at this point it's been long enough and based on the paperwork my lawyer handled he thought it was done months ago. I assume that if they were going to straight up fuck with it then they would have. The only changes I made that were relevant were an aluminum AMP trigger, polished trigger rods and the aluminum hammer and sear. None of which could allow the gun to do anything illegal unless they really were wanting to fuck with it and straight up frame me. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:35:34 PM EDT
[#44]
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And he could buy a complete gen 1 or 2 trigger pack. Is that intent? Probably not since pack is intact and not altered. But, if you buy a Gen 4 pack and start changing the parts to a Gen1/Gen2...that seems a bit more like constructive intent than buying a non-altered Gen1/Gen2 pack. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:39:02 PM EDT
[#45]
GREAT VIDEO explaining the trigger and the forward sear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf5crF2CSZs
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:44:20 PM EDT
[#46]
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That thought haunts me at times but at this point it's been long enough and based on the paperwork my lawyer handled he thought it was done months ago. I assume that if they were going to straight up fuck with it then they would have. The only changes I made that were relevant were an aluminum AMP trigger, polished trigger rods and the aluminum hammer and sear. None of which could allow the gun to do anything illegal unless they really were wanting to fuck with it and straight up frame me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP. You realize it may not be over..? Gun could be at tech and they are fucking with it ! That thought haunts me at times but at this point it's been long enough and based on the paperwork my lawyer handled he thought it was done months ago. I assume that if they were going to straight up fuck with it then they would have. The only changes I made that were relevant were an aluminum AMP trigger, polished trigger rods and the aluminum hammer and sear. None of which could allow the gun to do anything illegal unless they really were wanting to fuck with it and straight up frame me. So why can't you get it back? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:47:22 PM EDT
[#47]
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So why can't you get it back? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP. You realize it may not be over..? Gun could be at tech and they are fucking with it ! That thought haunts me at times but at this point it's been long enough and based on the paperwork my lawyer handled he thought it was done months ago. I assume that if they were going to straight up fuck with it then they would have. The only changes I made that were relevant were an aluminum AMP trigger, polished trigger rods and the aluminum hammer and sear. None of which could allow the gun to do anything illegal unless they really were wanting to fuck with it and straight up frame me. So why can't you get it back? I am not getting that either. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:53:32 PM EDT
[#48]
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Here is what is confusing. What was your attorney supposed to do? (see below) They confiscated your firearm. What was the legal authority? Did you sign a property receipt? What does it instruct you to do? He was supposed to handle everything so I didn't have to talk to them without representation after then initial encounter. That's a good question and I don't know. As I said the way things play out when they are happening to you isn't always the way you think they might. It doesn't help that the stakes are a bit higher than talking your way out of a speeding ticket. Yes, and there are instructions. But I'm also not interested in having any further interaction with them unless it's through a lawyer. Lawyers cost money and the math just doesn't make sense for me. Every little thing is billable time and it adds up fast. People can call me a pussy but I'm also not interested in being some test case. I have a family and a lot to potentially lose and I'm posting all this because I know other guys do as well and I don't want anybody lose a gun and go through all the insane stress and hassle like I did. Ever pay a BS speeding ticket just because it wasn't worth it to try and fight? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:56:52 PM EDT
[#49]
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I am not getting that either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP. You realize it may not be over..? Gun could be at tech and they are fucking with it ! That thought haunts me at times but at this point it's been long enough and based on the paperwork my lawyer handled he thought it was done months ago. I assume that if they were going to straight up fuck with it then they would have. The only changes I made that were relevant were an aluminum AMP trigger, polished trigger rods and the aluminum hammer and sear. None of which could allow the gun to do anything illegal unless they really were wanting to fuck with it and straight up frame me. So why can't you get it back? I am not getting that either. Right? Charge him, or give him his stuff back. Maybe because if they do give him all his stuff back it would prove he did nothing wrong and that they are a bunch of dumb fucks? And right now you can still go on eBay or retailers and buy an aluminum hammer which supposedly helps with the trigger pull. And apparently does from reviews I have read. So it does surve a legitimate function. Is everyone going to get a visit? Why OP? If they ATF has an issue with these parts why not go after the manufacturer/retailer? A lot of this still isn't adding up. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:59:18 PM EDT
[#50]
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He was supposed to handle everything so I didn't have to talk to them without representation after then initial encounter. That's a good question and I don't know. As I said the way things play out when they are happening to you isn't always the way you think they might. It doesn't help that the stakes are a bit higher than talking your way out of a speeding ticket. Yes, and there are instructions. But I'm also not interested in having any further interaction with them unless it's through a lawyer. Lawyers cost money and the math just doesn't make sense for me. Every little thing is billable time and it adds up fast. People can call me a pussy but I'm also not interested in being some test case. I have a family and a lot to potentially lose and I'm posting all this because I know other guys do as well and I don't want anybody lose a gun and go through all the insane stress and hassle like I did. Ever pay a BS speeding ticket just because it wasn't worth it to try and fight? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here is what is confusing. What was your attorney supposed to do? (see below) They confiscated your firearm. What was the legal authority? Did you sign a property receipt? What does it instruct you to do? He was supposed to handle everything so I didn't have to talk to them without representation after then initial encounter. That's a good question and I don't know. As I said the way things play out when they are happening to you isn't always the way you think they might. It doesn't help that the stakes are a bit higher than talking your way out of a speeding ticket. Yes, and there are instructions. But I'm also not interested in having any further interaction with them unless it's through a lawyer. Lawyers cost money and the math just doesn't make sense for me. Every little thing is billable time and it adds up fast. People can call me a pussy but I'm also not interested in being some test case. I have a family and a lot to potentially lose and I'm posting all this because I know other guys do as well and I don't want anybody lose a gun and go through all the insane stress and hassle like I did. Ever pay a BS speeding ticket just because it wasn't worth it to try and fight? That seriously sucks and I do feel bad, but it also makes me very angry. I sure wouldn't want to be a test case either. But this is why they get to do whatever they fuck they want
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