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Posted: 6/12/2007 9:57:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Shot placement.
And with 20 rounds its a safe bet you will get a couple decently placed shots 
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Posted: 6/12/2007 11:56:24 AM EDT
[#2]
  and I'm too lazy to go find the "Aww jeez, Not this shit again" pic. Seriously this is a well visited heated topic. Go and do a search over at tacticalforums.com using 5.7mm as your term in the Terminal Effects forum. I'd just say that many well educated and reliable sources are less than pleased with it. |
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Posted: 6/12/2007 2:19:34 PM EDT
[#3]
ignore the opinions of it pro and con. look at the gel blocks. I love it, but I have to dust off a USP to shoot IDPA. The 5.7 will never escape it's stink, people are going to say it's not worth carrying because it only penetrates 10 in of gel, but it's too powerful because it goes through armor. Carry what you want, know what it will do.
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Posted: 6/12/2007 8:43:24 PM EDT
[#4]
I don't much like the pistol.
The 5.7mm was designed to fly out of a P90 barrel, and it's a fairly velocity driven round. Shooting it out a pistol barrel takes a bit of that velocity away. |
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Posted: 6/12/2007 8:59:42 PM EDT
[#5]
If you would not willingly take a .22 magnum to a fight, don't get the 5.7.
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Posted: 6/12/2007 9:20:25 PM EDT
[#6]
getting shot sucks so shoot them a lot, and get a load that will penetrate at least 13"
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Posted: 6/12/2007 10:18:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Honestly, I think itis all about how comfortable the shooter is with the caliber. I mean, if a old granny is comfortable with 22LR, that is what she should get.
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Posted: 6/12/2007 11:13:29 PM EDT
[#8]
What does being comfortable with the caliber have to do with it? All of the ballistic masturbation in the world won't change the fact that you need to make a decent sized hole in a man to put him down, and even the largest handguns are marginal. Its not about being comfortable, its about being effective.
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Posted: 6/13/2007 2:17:15 AM EDT
[#9]
The 5.7 will most likely ruin your day if your on the receiving end. I can only say i have no problem using my PS90 for a PDW for the road and you guys thart own the 5.7 USG pistol have more than enough knocking power and range to keep the most darring idiots at bay.
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Posted: 6/13/2007 3:59:32 AM EDT
[#10]
Remember, the FN57 is providing .22 magnum *rifle* ballistics out of a *pistol* length bbl. Shot placement & sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. If you're comfortable w/the 5.7's penetration and can shoot it well then you're better off than with something you *can't* shoot well. Tomac |
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Posted: 6/13/2007 4:10:28 AM EDT
[#11]
Define "decent sized hole" and at what point does it become more effective? The rub is that there's no such thing as "stopping power" as it cannot be measured or reproduced scientifically. I agree that all handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" so when we get into the ".45 is better than .40 is better than 9mm is better than, etc, etc" debate we cannot determine exactly how much better a particular caliber/load is than another (5%?, 15%?, 35%?... too many variables invovled). Heck, in many situations the BG will cut & run if he sees you're armed or are shooting at him or if he feels pain or sees his own blood, etc. Against an aggressive & determined BG the only one-shot-stop will be a hit to the CNS. Even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10 sec worth of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to return the favor. So, with a non-CNS or heart hit to a determined & aggressive BG, how much practical difference in bleedout time would we see between different calibers/loads? I don't know and don't claim to know, hence the "sufficient penetration & shot placement". Yes, using the most powerful caliber you can shoot effectively is a good rule of thumb but IMHO you're better off w/a smaller caliber you can shoot effectively than a larger caliber you can't. Tomac ETA: I keep an FN57 for nightstand duty, I can shoot it well & I'm happy w/the low recoil and high capacity (YMMV). |
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Posted: 6/13/2007 6:27:31 AM EDT
[#12]
if I could find a 22 mag with 20 or 30 rnd clips, I'd probably take it. But I can't find a 22mag that I can load with ss109 though
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Posted: 6/13/2007 8:55:46 AM EDT
[#13]
The author of this thread initially asked us that 5.7x28mm was good defensive round. IF the shooter is comfortable and familar with the firearm (this case, fiveseven) and the caliber (5.7x28mm), it is a good defense round for that person.
Lots of of female shooter who have shot my Fiveseven really liked it. It has Minimal recoil, Light weight, less "probability" (due to 20rnd) to reload during defense situation. So, yes, being comfortable firing specific caliber is important for ANY shooting situation (recreational, defense, target, etc).
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Posted: 6/13/2007 2:31:03 PM EDT
[#14]
I agree that you should shoot a caliber you can handle effectively. I don't know of anyone, disabled people excepted, who can't handle a 9 millimeter. It's a training issue.
The 5.7 has a dismal record in actual shootings. Some of its reported successes are outright lies. Its failures are often glossed over. |
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Posted: 6/13/2007 2:46:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Then why does the Secret Service continue to use them? They can easily buy anything they want. Note: While the USSS continues to use the P90, it's notable that they don't use the pistol Five-seveN. |
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Posted: 6/13/2007 5:12:48 PM EDT
[#16]
The secret service uses the P90 which features full auto fire. The low recoil & muzzle jump of the 5.7 plus the full auto fire results in minimal dispersion, so you get a lot of rounds hitting in a relatively small area making up for the weakness of the individual rounds. Plus, with AP ammo, it works well against threats in soft body armor.
Also, keep in mind that the Secret Service work in teams, so it is not just you on your lonesome with a 5.7. As a civilian you will not have: 1. full auto 2. AP ammo 3. A partner |
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Posted: 6/13/2007 5:45:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Hard data, please? Tomac |
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Posted: 6/13/2007 5:46:32 PM EDT
[#18]
The permanent cavity from the 5.7mm cartridge is very poor, and really the only thing the round has to offer is the penetration of armor. However, since AP ammo isn't commercially available, and the chance of having to fire upon someone with armor is low, it's not the best route. The cartridge performs even worse out of the shorter-barrel of the Five-seveN, compared to the P90. As mentioned before, Full auto control is another advantage to the round, but since you most likely won't own a full auto P90, and definately not a full-auto Five-seveN, you're pretty much SOL. You'd most likely get better terminal ballistics from a .22 Magnum or LR, and I wouldn't rest my life on either of those either. In short, it's a neat pistol with a very interesting round, but definately not a practical defensive choice, IMO.
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Posted: 6/14/2007 4:53:11 AM EDT
[#19]
The other thing working against the round it the number of ammo choices, or more specially, the lack thereof.
With 9 mm, for instance, I can name six types of different expanding ammo I have used, and there are many more out there. With the 5.7, there are two choices – that’s it. If other ammo makers would apply their knowledge of ballistics, then I think the round might be more viable than it is now. Right now - I think its moribund; and will be just a memory in the civilian market if something does not change. |
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Posted: 6/14/2007 5:19:11 AM EDT
[#20]
really? I have not seen instances of this. |
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Posted: 6/14/2007 12:07:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Search at Lightfighter. |
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Posted: 6/14/2007 12:57:02 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 6/14/2007 3:09:59 PM EDT
[#23]
have to register to follow that link. By hard data, I assume he ment news articles or magazine articles.
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Posted: 6/15/2007 5:44:38 AM EDT
[#24]
Where does your basis for this statement come from? The 5.7 round even from the pistol is a heavier bullet at a higher velocity than either. How about from the rifle? You then add even more velocity than from the P90. |
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Posted: 6/15/2007 8:57:55 AM EDT
[#25]
I like the idea of a PS90 SBR for home defense. As an SBR it projects less than a handgun. Two hands reduces take away. The top rail gives you a variety of optics choices. The side rail is good for a light. 50 rounds should take care of just about any foreseeable situation except a Mad Max fantasy.
The round may be controversial and (thanks to Reagan) we can't own full auto, but with 50 rounds, practice double taps. |
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Posted: 6/16/2007 3:04:52 AM EDT
[#26]
Great....until they produce the firearm in court. Many women would faint at the sheer evilness of how it looks. |
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Posted: 6/16/2007 3:13:32 AM EDT
[#27]
The P-90 is more 'sci-fi' than evil... Most folks see it and think 'Battlestar Galactica'.... |
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Posted: 6/17/2007 7:13:47 AM EDT
[#28]
Actually, I think more people would think of Stargate.
Subjective opinions on a gun's appearance are all over the place, though. And those opinions can change with time. For example, I have an older neighbor who thinks my M1 carbine is "extremely" evil. He thinks my AR15 is a plastic piece of junk. One shouldn't let people's subjective opinions of weapons have too much of an influence on their choices. I consider the FiveseveN a decent defensive pistol. This is because it has 2 out of 3 very important characteristics. It is reliable and it is accurate. It lacks some what in brute power, but it is still capable of penetrating targets. Much the same could be said for most of the handguns produced in the last century. The FiveseveN is ligher, and more accurate than most of those. 20 round capacity doesn't hurt a bit, either. I suppose a lot hinges on the definition of "decent". The FiveseveN fits that description, in my opinion. There are others which do a better job, but indeed, the Fiveseven is "decent". |
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Posted: 6/17/2007 9:40:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Would I choose it as my go to round? No.
However, its the round I have for my sister for the following reasons
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Posted: 6/18/2007 5:17:51 AM EDT
[#30]
fiveseven has a loaded chamber indicator?
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Posted: 6/25/2007 11:03:02 AM EDT
[#31]
The 5.7x28mm Round.
Developed to replace the 9mm FMJ round currently used by service pistols among nato nations. It was designed to have greater lethality than the 9mm FMJ and to slice through body armor of enemy soldiers without overpenetration. Compared to the 9mm FMJ it is a superior round in terms of lethality when used with the P90 or PS90. Compared to the 5.56mm fired from an 10.5" or smaller traditional rifled barrel (ie not polygonal like Magpul is playing around with for their PDR) the 5.7x28mm is more effective because it retain its velocity much better, is easier to control, creates less muzzle flash, and still has its tumble and yaw effect. The 5.7x28mm has a very high velocity so that when it meets resistence it will slice through armor thanks to the material used in the SS190 round, but then enter a tumble and yaw phase where the bullet turns end over end on itself creating a larger wound cavity. The penetration depth of the SS190 is around 10.5-12" depending on what test you go off of. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Civilians within the US can not obtain the SS190 as it is restricted to LEO/Military use. However, there are two areas where the SS190 differs from the civilian alternative SS195: 1) Bullet Material; 2) Velocity. The SS190 has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core that makes it AP capable of body armor less than Level III (ie most soft body armor). The velocity of SS190 which is what gives it the kenetic energy to kill is about 2,350 ft. per second when fired from a P90 with a 10.5" barrel. The SS195 does not have the steel penetrator, but does have the aluminum core that makes it not an AP round, but still very similiar. The velocity of SS195 which is what gives it the kenetic energy to kill is about 2,300 ft. per second when fired from a P90 with a 10.5" barrel. However, when the SS195 is fired from a civilian PS90 with a 16" barrel is about 2,450 ft. per second. So, from the 16" barrel the SS195 will most likely have greater penetration into ballistic gellatin easily reaching the FBI minimum penetration requirement of 12". It will have the same tumble and yaw effect as the SS190 round as well. In my judgment this would make the SS195 somewhat acceptable from a 10.5" barrel, but very acceptable from a 16" barrel in terms of lethality. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When you compare your choices available to firearms with similiar overall length you will find the PS90 and 5.7x28mm SS195 a superior choice to say an 10.5" AR pistol or a pistol caliber submachinegun shooting 9mm FMJ rounds. More control, less muzzle flash, and acceptable penetration and lethality make the PS90 with 5.7x28mm SS195 a "good-to-go" self defense option. At least until and unless Magpul can get their PDR to work. |
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Posted: 6/26/2007 4:37:20 AM EDT
[#32]
Some cut and paste for those who can't login to LF. My experience wih the 5.7 is nil. It's limited to reading only. SO my opinion isn't worth much....
In my mind I see no use whatsoever for the 5.7 as currently available to us as lowly civilians. Without full auto it's closer to a .22 mag. Like it was said before, the Sec Service has more than one gun and gun type on the line, along with FA and AP ammo whether it's needed or not. DocGKR Ballistic Expert! Posted 20 Jan, 2006 15:06 Hide Post Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol. I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure. Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90. --Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000. --Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991. --Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997. --FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation. --Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001. --Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998. --Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press. The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9...... It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.  The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available? The best uses for the P90 might be for executive protection details where the threat is expected to be wearing body armor and perhaps as a PDW for vehicle crew and pilots. |
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Posted: 6/26/2007 4:38:48 AM EDT
[#33]
Where is this cut and pasted from?
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Posted: 6/26/2007 5:13:26 AM EDT
[#34]
4. training 5. unlimited budget to buy practice ammo |
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Posted: 6/26/2007 6:15:31 AM EDT
[#35]
basically the cut n paste above from light fighter says the round has to be aimed center mass to be effective, if you miss don't expect the bullet to magically vaporize the bad guy from air displacement.
I view the 7 to 14 inch penatration as a plus for my needs |
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Posted: 6/26/2007 12:31:47 PM EDT
[#36]
You can view most of the data from the wikipedia article on 5.7x28mm and all of it is referenced to various studies like those conducted by the Canadian government, FBI, Houston Police Department, and so forth. I am Highly skeptical of the lightfighter post. I will say this that there are many people who have financial interests that are materially adverse to the acceptance of the 5.7x28mm round used from a PDW weapon like the P90. I would rather go with studies from organizations rather than limited tests by individuals any day of the week. As we all know tests can be rigged to achieve a certain result by changing various variables. Test results can be intepreted differently depending on the protocals used. From everything I have seen including having used the 5.7x28mm for the hunting of boar myself I believe the round to be very effective when fired from my 16" PS-90. In addition, there are at least two confirmed incidents where the P-90 with SS190 rounds caused the death of human beings including an incident in Houston. I would much rather have the 5.7x28mm SS195 loaded in a PS90 than say an Uzi armed with 9mm FMJ or a 10.5" AR pistol armed with 5.56mm in confronting an intruder in my home. I don't believe that the 5.7x28mm is the ideal round, but I believe it does address in part issues that other firearms can not. I am hopeful that the Magpul PDR that is chambered in 5.56mm will be able to accomplish what other short barreled ARs have not been able to in my opinion. If Magpul is sucessful I will gladly make my PS90 take a backseat to it. |
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Posted: 6/28/2007 5:09:45 AM EDT
[#37]
1. the proper docrine will find the weapon used on semi auto 90% of the time, and 100% of the time on semi auto past 35 yards....so no, its use in full auto is not a must. (its not a sandblaster)Real life isnt a die hard movie or machine gun demo where all you see any select fire weapon being used strickly on full auto. even Navy SEALs use semi auto fire for room clearing . 2 SS190 is a lightweight SS109...its BALL ammo. 3. If you had ever been a policeman...you know that we arent siamese twins, and most often die alone if all goes bad....the shootouts that have occured at the white house, where Secret Service/Capital police have died has even borne this out as well. (lol have to operate in teams to use a 5.7....I suppose then the ghostbuster rule of "Dont cross the beams, EVER" equally applies.... 4 training is a good thing for anybody...but the P90 is made to be extremely easy to use by novice, non gun fighting types...its the demographics it was made expressly for. Oh but then you say..why not just give those clerks and cooks a 10 inch barrelled M16 instead?..because novices cant shoot those for caca(espicailly without earplugs), have a huge muzzle flash and boom that makes you the center of attention for return fire...fun civy enthusiest gun though. 5. The Secret Service did extensive testing that completely satisfied them it was adequiet for thier intended uses. When Dr. Martin Fackler tried to stick his nose in, He was told in no uncertain terms that Your test results bear no resembalence to ours, $%$@ off..... 6. Any major B.S.about this subject can allways be traced back to two forums on the whole web- tacforums, and Lightfighter..which just so happens to covet Fackler, and "doc" Roberts (no bias there ROFLMAO) "The seven degrees of Martin Facker" 7. most so called experts on the internet would much rather protect themselves with a factory HK MP5-SD because its cool and has the power of a walther PPK after those 72 holes drilled in the barrel has bled the propellant gas, making any 9mm you stuff in it subsonic. Get some YEAH!!!!! Norway is getting rid of all its military's MP5s and going to the MP7A1 PDW as of recently. |
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Posted: 6/30/2007 4:12:26 AM EDT
[#38]
On the left side of the slide - there is a small pin with a rounded end. When loaded, it will stick out; when unloaded, it will be recessed. |
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Posted: 6/30/2007 9:13:35 AM EDT
[#39]
huh, never noticed that
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Posted: 7/2/2007 11:43:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Being shot = not good
Being shot in the head = definetly not good If you don't believe me, stand 50 feet away let the guy with the PS90 shoot you twice in the chest and see if you can shoot him back... Then let us know how it went. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 10:16:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Not really a good argument. I would not want to be shot in either the head or chest with a .25 auto. However that does not mean that a .25 auto is a good defensive caliber. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 3:34:25 PM EDT
[#42]
Look you can make similiar arguments about any caliber out there.
Every caliber has good points and bad points. The 5.7x28mm fired from a 10.5" barrel is never going to a 5.56x45mm fired from a 20" barrel. Look at why they came out with the 5.7x28mm...9mm FMJ wasn't getting the job done and 5.56mm fired from anything less than a 14" barrel sucks IMHO. We'll see how the new KAC PDW does and if the MAGPUL PDR can become real, but until than I would rather have a 5.7x28mm PS90 than say an UZI with 9mm or a 10.5" barrel AR shooting 5.56mm. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 4:14:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Who in their right mind would choose a 5.7 over a 10.5 AR? You do realize that the AR still has a significant edge on the 5.7 in both bullet weight and velocity, right?
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Posted: 7/3/2007 7:10:56 PM EDT
[#44]
Ok,
Look at why HK came-up with the MP7 and Fn came up with the P90 it is because of the short comings of the 5.56x45mm round when fired through a barrel of less than 14". Have you ever fired a 10.5" AR? The things have significant recoil, significant muzzle flash, and are less reliable when used with a traditional DI AR. Look at the WHOLE reason that Magpul is going with a polygonal barrel for their 10.5" PDR...so that they can get the added velocity they need to drive the weight of the 5.56x45mm round. They are also going to have to work on reduction of muzzle flash and recoil along with going with a short stroke piston of some sorts. It amazes me that people think that HK, Fn, Magpul, and KAC are just trying to produce gimmak firearms and that there is no need to do anything other than shorten your barrel down on an AR to 10.5" for a personal defense style weapon. 
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:02:52 PM EDT
[#45]
Well said... I wouldn't mind holding a PS90 when shit hits the fan. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:06:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Piss bubble
bunny fart |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 3:54:11 AM EDT
[#47]
See? He gets it. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 7:24:52 PM EDT
[#49]
My ears still hurt/ring from shooting a 10.5 inch XM177 Commando.
 Don-S1 |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 7:38:43 PM EDT
[#50]
I have many rounds through ARs down to 6.5 inches. The 10.5s aren't bad. They are far superior in terminal ballistics and external ballistics. The place they fall on their face is noise, size and capacity. The PDWs are meant to be smaller and quieter at the cost of terminal effect and ergonomics. The problem with the military getting a PDW is that it would complicate logistics, and require new training for both operators and armorers. Thats the advantage of the MK18. |
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