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Posted: 11/30/2016 3:38:41 PM EDT
So I really love my MP5A3, because, well, it's an MP5. But I have to say, the mini uzi is a great gun. It's very accurate, plus, it's very compact. I've been carrying the uzi in my backpack for some time now, and it is beginning to take over as my #1 gun. It has a faster rate of fire, so practice is more ammo. With this noted, most defense shootings are very CQ. I would carry the MP5, but it's a bit big. Any ideas?
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So I really love my MP5A3, because, well, it's an MP5. But I have to say, the mini uzi is a great gun. It's very accurate, plus, it's very compact. I've been carrying the uzi in my backpack for some time now, and it is beginning to take over as my #1 gun. It has a faster rate of fire, so practice is more ammo. With this noted, most defense shootings are very CQ. I would carry the MP5, but it's a bit big. Any ideas? View Quote MP5K ETA: Another alternative might be a Micro Uzi. The late Coleman Young, when Mayor of Detroit, armed his personal body guard policemen with post-sample Micro Uzis. Keep in mind, any small FA gun will have a pretty high ROF which is in opposition to the generally better concealability of a small magazine. Best of luck with whatever you decide to pursue. |
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Well depends if FA. UZI makes an awesome SD pistol for your backpack purpose "faster rate of fire" <- whatever that means. But an MP5 setup SA or FA would be CQB but less concealable...
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So I really love my MP5A3, because, well, it's an MP5. But I have to say, the mini uzi is a great gun. It's very accurate, plus, it's very compact. I've been carrying the uzi in my backpack for some time now, and it is beginning to take over as my #1 gun. It has a faster rate of fire, so practice is more ammo. With this noted, most defense shootings are very CQ. I would carry the MP5, but it's a bit big. Any ideas? View Quote I carry Glock 18C or HK MP5K in this situation. |
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You guys carry a full auto gun for self defense?
Why not just carry a regular handgun? |
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Have I ever mentioned we need to go shoot sometime? OP, machine guns have been used in self defense in precious few scenarios. Obviously you know this. I think it's much more reasonable from a few angles to carry a Glock 17 on your body and an AR-15 SBR with a Law Defense folder in a backpack. If you're keeping it in a backpack, the rate of fire is probably not super relevant. Range or penetration would probably be more useful. |
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Both guns are FA. The HK is obviously the cool gun. But that open bolt uzi is sweet. View Quote I would never use a FA transferable for self defense unless it was a last resort. Why would you risk having a very expensive FA get tied up in the legal system? Besides that, I would much rather use a suppressed 300blk AR pistol with Lehigh Defense ammo than my FA LAGE Mac11a1 for self defense! |
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Quoted: I would never use a FA transferable for self defense unless it was a last resort. Why would you risk having a very expensive FA get tied up in the legal system? Besides that, I would much rather use a suppressed 300blk AR pistol with Lehigh Defense ammo than my FA LAGE Mac11a1 for self defense! View Quote Shooting someone is pretty much a last resort. |
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Mini uzis come in both closed and open bolt. I've put 1,000 rounds thru this one, it's an open bolt gun. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Mini and micro Uzis are both closed-bolt, iirc. Mini uzis come in both closed and open bolt. I've put 1,000 rounds thru this one, it's an open bolt gun. Right. Micro's were only closed bolt from the factory although most conversions were open bolt. Factory full auto Mini's and full size's were both closed and open bolt. |
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Did the Secret Service ever adopt closed-bolt Mini UZIs? I know some samples were made for them, but don't know if they bought them in quantity between their full-size open-bolt UZIs and adopting the MP5K.
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Assuming you HK is a registered sear, then I would suggest a MP5k with folding stock. I have most host for the HK sear and have a friend who had a mini.
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Would you rather return fire w/ a sub-machinegun or a pistol? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: You guys carry a full auto gun for self defense?
Why not just carry a regular handgun? Would you rather return fire w/ a sub-machinegun or a pistol? A $14,000 UZI carried in a backpack is now the best form of self defense? okey dokey |
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A $14,000 UZI carried in a backpack is now the best form of self defense? okey dokey View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Quoted: You guys carry a full auto gun for self defense?
Why not just carry a regular handgun? Would you rather return fire w/ a sub-machinegun or a pistol? A $14,000 UZI carried in a backpack is now the best form of self defense? okey dokey Expensive, but will do more cardiovascular damage in 1 sec than a $1000 ZEV Glock. Heavy, though. You think all those troops in the 2nd WW would've rather been carrying 1911s than their 11 lb Thompsons? Or did they like having 20 rounds on tap @ 650 rpm? |
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Expensive, but will do more cardiovascular damage in 1 sec than a $1000 ZEV Glock. Heavy, though. You think all those troops in the 2nd WW would've rather been carrying 1911s than their 11 lb Thompsons? Or did they like having 20 rounds on tap @ 650 rpm? View Quote To be fair here one scenario is an active battlefield and the other is functionally the equivalent of standing in line at Starbucks in a 1st world Country. In my opinion, everybody has the right to arm themselves with whatever they feel most comfortable with. That said I find it hard to believe that anybody would be surprised that even NFA collecting enthusiasts may raise a cocked eyebrow when somebody says they carry around what I presume to be a loaded open bolt transferable mini-Uzi in a backpack when out running errands at the local suburban mall. I would recommend that if your personal security plan involves routinely carrying around a transferable sub-machinegun as part of your EDC gear you should looking into getting of the M6 Corp folding "radio" subguns. You could certainly deploy an M6 radio gun much faster if you kept it covertly folded on a sling vs. trying to remove a backpack from your shoulders, unzip the bag, get the Uzi out, deploy the stock, potentially cock it, and then return fire. The M6 guns are pretty much on pricing parity with a mini-uzi as well. |
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M6 Management Corporation (575) 437-0200, Address: 500 10th Street # 301, Alamogordo, NM 88310-6776 View Quote I think an MP5K in an Eagle shoulder rig is much quicker to deploy (especially compared to anything in a backpack). If you want to expand to post samples, I'd look at B&T's MP9 and HK's MP7. Ridiculous? Sure. I say get the best you can afford and do the most that is legal, and that you're comfortable with, to protect yourself. Don't make it weird. lol I wouldn't want to carry an open-bolt UZI with the bolt open, so that means I'd need to put both hands on the weapon to deploy it, which is certainly not ideal. If you buy a registered receiver Mini UZI, it could be converted to closed-bolt operation though. MP5's beat UZI's by a mile, in my opinion. |
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Quoted: To be fair here one scenario is an active battlefield and the other is functionally the equivalent of standing in line at Starbucks in a 1st world Country.
In my opinion, everybody has the right to arm themselves with whatever they feel most comfortable with. That said I find it hard to believe that anybody would be surprised that even NFA collecting enthusiasts may raise a cocked eyebrow when somebody says they carry around what I presume to be a loaded open bolt transferable mini-Uzi in a backpack when out running errands at the local suburban mall. I would recommend that if your personal security plan involves routinely carrying around a transferable sub-machinegun as part of your EDC gear you should looking into getting of the M6 Corp folding "radio" subguns. You could certainly deploy an M6 radio gun much faster if you kept it covertly folded on a sling vs. trying to remove a backpack from your shoulders, unzip the bag, get the Uzi out, deploy the stock, potentially cock it, and then return fire. The M6 guns are pretty much on pricing parity with a mini-uzi as well. View Quote Not really my concern - such prices are far above my wheelhouse. I do run around w/ a SUB-2000 in my murse, however - very handy when encountering those pesky no handgun signs. |
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I'm not trying to be snotty or pick at anyone, but an extremely valuable UZI in a backpack seems like an inferior choice to a pistol on the hip for most self defense situations I can think of.
I'm not talking about personal preferences, I'm talking about the physical need to unlimber an UZI from a back pack compared to yanking a pistol from a holster. Who would win that quick draw contest? Not to mention the fact that if the bad guy gets the drop on you, which is likely due to the backpack-for-a-holster carry mode, he might just walk off with your backpack and $14k gun. Wouldn't that be a frosty Friday? Lots of police departments have full auto guns in inventory but they only deploy them for situations where they might be needed. Which is rarely. But they carry pistols every single day. BTW, Thompsons (my favorite gun) shoot at more like 850 rpm. They run pretty fast. |
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Lots of police departments have full auto guns in inventory but they only deploy them for situations where they might be needed. Which is rarely. But they carry pistols every single day. View Quote It's a trade-off. You're trading draw time for "bringing more gun". If you're only dealing with one opponent, that advantage is really not as useful. You also have the extra burden of carrying that much "more gun" around. That sounds like a 1921 Thompson. The M1928 is closer to 700 rpm. The M1's are slower still. |
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Why would someone w/ a $14K Uzi only carry one gun? If it's a quick draw contest you're after, then our Uzi lover will use his Glock or whatever. Then get behind cover, grab the Uzi, and return fire.
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Is this them? Are they actually selling those right now? What's the price? I think an MP5K in an Eagle shoulder rig is much quicker to deploy (especially compared to anything in a backpack). If you want to expand to post samples, I'd look at B&T's MP9 and HK's MP7. Ridiculous? Sure. I say get the best you can afford and do the most that is legal, and that you're comfortable with, to protect yourself. Don't make it weird. lol View Quote I believe that is them. Their website is www.fullautoclassics.com $16.5K per gun. They were still trying to unload these a couple years back. No idea if they still have inventory but I know the price has continued to creep up over the years. They started out around $10K and have gone up to $16.5K over the past 4 or 5 years. I considered buying one when they were $12K a couple years back as a cool novelty item but they jumped up another couple grand and I lost interest. If money is no object and you don't mind lugging around 10lbs of subguns while going about your day, than two transferable MP5Ks in shoulder rigs matrix style would be the way to go. Should give you similar draw time as a normal pistol and you can dispatch 60rds into your attacker in ~2.5 seconds. |
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OK, thanks. I remember seeing that website now, years ago. It says they have 28 remaining out of their original 65, all transferable. I guess they don't offer it as a post sample. Concealed carry is probably better than unfolding a gun anyway.
I think you'd have to be in The Matrix to realize any benefit from a second MP5K. lol My vote is for a single MP7A1 and a couple V40 mini grenades along with the mags on the other side to balance it out. |
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If speed of deployment is a factor, what about the MP5K briefcase rig? Sure you lose accuracy, but you can dump 30 rounds faster than you can draw a pistol and fire a few.
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I carry a p229 in 357 sig for primary deployment. With three mags. I can get to cover, then determine if an escalation is needed. I carry a lot of cash for deals, and I'm an FFL holder. Finally, a Columbian coke runner ended up doing a long sentence, then was deported. He swore he would come back for me. So I have edged weapons, training in fighting, a GSD, and a selection of NFA item. I will protect my family
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Sig 229 and and MP5 was my daily load out...
In Abuja, Nigeria. But I'll be damned if I tell anyone what they should/shouldn't carry. |
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Sig 229 and and MP5 was my daily load out... In Abuja, Nigeria. But I'll be damned if I tell anyone what they should/shouldn't carry. View Quote Well, you could pick the third alternative and just chitter chatter about it on an internet forum. If someone reads my posts on arfcom and then needs a safe space to recuperate, well that's on them. Not too concerned. |
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Truth. The conventionally holstered pistol will win the draw every time, although in my experience that Eagle rig+MP5K comes damn close. It's a trade-off. You're trading draw time for "bringing more gun". If you're only dealing with one opponent, that advantage is really not as useful. You also have the extra burden of carrying that much "more gun" around. That sounds like a 1921 Thompson. The M1928 is closer to 700 rpm. The M1's are slower still. View Quote In theory, 1928 and M1/M1A1 Thompsons run slow. In actuality, the ROF varies a lot and they mostly run like an M16. Check out the videos on youtube. If there's a way to get a Thompson to run 700 with GI ball ammo, I'm not familiar with it. The slowest is the M1A1, it has the heaviest bolt because they deleted the hammer and firing pin and just put a pin in the bolt face. Incidentally, the M1A1 is technically the best Thompson, because it was the most simple. The Thompson suffered from being TOO deluxe and overdesigned. Anything they did to simplify it is an improvement. I know this isn't a Thompson thread but this video is actually pretty decent and it shows the typical ROF. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D53opaeollQ I'm not exactly thrilled with idea of carrying an UZI for CCW, but if you carried a Thompson in a violin case you would have my vote. |
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Well, you could pick the third alternative and just chitter chatter about it on an internet forum. If someone reads my posts on arfcom and then needs a safe space to recuperate, well that's on them. Not too concerned. View Quote Sorry, that reply wasn't directed at anyone. I meant no offense. |
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Sorry, that reply wasn't directed at anyone. I meant no offense. View Quote I took no offense and I also meant none. People are sometimes reluctant to question the usefulness of being "tactical", because questions of that type are often seen as being a slapped ass, not gung-ho enough, fuddish. For most people, more tactical = better. Which is an idea that does not always follow common sense. Why not offer a contrary opinion if you have one? Maybe your opinion is correct. If everyone is agreeing, then nobody is thinking. |
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OK, thanks. I remember seeing that website now, years ago. It says they have 28 remaining out of their original 65, all transferable. I guess they don't offer it as a post sample. Concealed carry is probably better than unfolding a gun anyway. I think you'd have to be in The Matrix to realize any benefit from a second MP5K. lol My vote is for a single MP7A1 and a couple V40 mini grenades along with the mags on the other side to balance it out. View Quote MP7 (and P90) is well known to have terrible wound ballistics. I'd stick with 9x19 over one of the anemic pdw calibers. |
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That's the trade-off for the AP capability. You're either punching tiny icepick holes, or hitting them with big expanding 9mm which won't penetrate armor.
I agree if you're not engaging armored targets, or AP ammo isn't available, 9mm is the better option. It's certainly cheaper too. |
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It seems some of you have not correctly read my post and responses. I carry a sidearm at all times. Now, I also carry either an MP5A3 or a mini Uzi in my backpack. The uzi is open bolt, it isn't locked back, and it not a quick deployment weapon. That what my sidearm is for. Return fire, take cover, if need be, deploy FA gun. My HK also fits the same backpack, but doesn't have a mag in it to fit properly. I can always go with a 15 round mag if need be. The entire point of this discussion is that I am wavering back and forth over which gun I want to make my dedicated MG.
I know that a guy in England made some very nice shoulder holsters for the mini, but he was bought out by a company that will not make that unit again. They do a nice rig for the hk. I may, at times, need to carry in this manner due to the nature of my business. I shoot both guns very well, but it seems the edge goes to the uzi for the higher rate of fire. Eh, why not just rotate them as needed. |
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If you're already leaning towards the MP5A3 for the backpack, then I would dedicate to HK and go with the MP5K for your holster setup. If the MP5A3 fits with a 15 rounder, then go with that for your first mag. You'll probably want another for the K. MP5A3 It works in the Eagle shoulder rig also. |
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OP, this guy could probably make your a Mini shoulder holster:
http://www.survivalsheath.com/main/home.htm He's not the most communicative vendor, but he does good work. He sent me a sheath in Iraq, and it's still working 5 years later. |
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It seems some of you have not correctly read my post and responses. I carry a sidearm at all times. Now, I also carry either an MP5A3 or a mini Uzi in my backpack. The uzi is open bolt, it isn't locked back, and it not a quick deployment weapon. That what my sidearm is for. Return fire, take cover, if need be, deploy FA gun. My HK also fits the same backpack, but doesn't have a mag in it to fit properly. I can always go with a 15 round mag if need be. The entire point of this discussion is that I am wavering back and forth over which gun I want to make my dedicated MG. I know that a guy in England made some very nice shoulder holsters for the mini, but he was bought out by a company that will not make that unit again. They do a nice rig for the hk. I may, at times, need to carry in this manner due to the nature of my business. I shoot both guns very well, but it seems the edge goes to the uzi for the higher rate of fire. Eh, why not just rotate them as needed. View Quote Can you explain this idea in a little more detail? Are you transporting something extremely valuable on foot? Not picking at you, just curious. |
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I thought I read somewhere that killing someone with a full auto firearm was mandatory life sentence, I can't tell you where I heard that though sorry.
Self defense is another matter, but for me... I carry a glock. |
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I thought I read somewhere that killing someone with a full auto firearm was mandatory life sentence, I can't tell you where I heard that though sorry. Self defense is another matter, but for me... I carry a glock. View Quote There is no law anywhere in the US that I am aware of that makes any callout regarding any type punishment (or enhanced punishment) for a lawful self-defense shooting using a legally owned machinegun vs. a normal Title-1 firearms. Theoretically, if you kill somebody in a lawful self-defense scenario the weapon you use should hold no legal bearing on whether or not you go in front of a grand jury, much less if homicide charges are filed and/or a eventual conviction is won. That said the practical application of what is going to happen to somebody who uses a machinegun in a lawful self defense shooting is going to vary dramatically depending upon the location (and circumstances) of where the shooting occurs. If you happen to live in a very liberal major metropolitan area and dump a full mag from an Uzi into the chest of a guy who threatens you with a knife for your wallet, you may very find yourself dealing with a criminal prosecution, with the DA trying to make some sort of "trayvon-esque" example out of you. Maybe you will ultimately prevail but the criminal legal defense costs would probably be enormous and the follow up civil action by the deceased family members financially ruinous. God help you if a stray round from a full auto Uzi strikes a bystander. On the other side of the equation if you are ambushed in the middle of your 1000+ acre south Texas ranch by multiple heavily armed cartel members at night and happen kill one or two of them with an Uzi before the remaining attackers retreat, you may not even see a grand jury and could even be given a local award of some type. In between these two examples is a whole ocean of gray legally justifiable homicide scenarios and potential criminal prosecution and civil action risks. Anybody who carries a machinegun as part of their EDC regime will have to make the decision for themselves whether the legitimate tactical needs of a machinegun out-weigh any potential legal threat that could either bankrupt you and/or put you in jail for life if you don't have the checkbook resources to go the distance against the government and the family of the deceased even under the best of justifiable homicide conditions. |
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Quoted: Anybody who carries a machinegun as part of their EDC regime will have to make the decision for themselves whether the legitimate tactical needs of a machinegun out-weigh any potential legal threat that could either bankrupt you and/or put you in jail for life if you don't have the checkbook resources to go the distance against the government and the family of the deceased even under the best of justifiable homicide conditions. View Quote Given Da'esh is inciting its followers to attack in CONUS, if you have a machinegun that is concealable, please carry it. If you encounter a terrorist attack, please do the needful. |
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Gun owners are our worst enemy.
If the man wants to carry a mini Uzi. By all means! I have a mini Uzi. I don't carry it. Only thing I'd recommend is the FAB defense fore rail. Gives me a point to add a small (small) grip. However that will add some weight and bulk. Not terrible though. I did add a red dot on my top cover. It's nice at the range but I don't know if it's useful in your scenario. I still have the railed top cover, but I repurposed the red dot. If you carry it, I'd recommend some paracord on the stock. If handled one briefly and it was easier to grip. Not super important for a range clown like me, but getting access to it in a hurry would be helpful (I suppose). |
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Gun owners are our worst enemy. View Quote Hardly. About 20 years ago, the entire gun owning fraternity decided that they were "tactical", and common sense went right out the window. Nowadays, if anyone questions anything "tactical", no matter how goofy it is, they are considered to be a traitor to gun ownership. Nobody should ask the OP why he's carrying a $15,000 firearm in a backpack. That's being our own worst enemy. If he was carrying a 50 caliber M2 belt fed machine gun in his backpack it would be even better. More tactical. |
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