was talking to a friend that sells AR parts & add-on's via a brick & mortar and at
shows all around Texas;
he said other dealers have told him it's never been as bad as now;
nobody has $$$ to spend?
He dosen't sell lowers or other gunz, but
does carry alot of other flavors of mags, scopes, lights ect.

When Cabelas has decent AR's new for less than $700 (on sale) and racks
of new & used in the same range (Buda store), is it just after market parts dealers
that are hurtin, or are the new AR owners not buying upgraded parts?

I'll admit I haven't been to a gun show in Central Texas in 8 years, but is it really that
bad? Ammo, gunz & other stuff is cheap as it's ever been (cept' you know what ammo)

I think its a combination of things. Money is still tight for a lot of people, me being one of them. There are some great deals that I would normally jumped on but no cash. Secondly alot of people stock piled during the scare. Kinda like the post Y2K lull. Tell your friend not to worry. Some other BS will get everyone panicking and those $700 ARs will be flying off the shelves.

All times are tough for gun dealers.  They're worse than farmers.

Last gun store I was in was trying to sell PMags for $15, 5.56 for $.40/round, and the suppressor I was going to buy for $350 over Silencer Shop.

I'll take my money elsewhere.

It's not just the gun business, ALL business are down. The company I work for just got our 2013 numbers back and has shown a loss for the fisrt time since we started in 2002.We even managed to make through the great recession without a loss, but the "recovery" is kicking our ass

Have you looked at the price of food lately?

It's hard to spend money at a store anymore when it's online for 60% of the price.  The return policy is normally better than a brick & mortar store and you can get actually what you want, instead of compromising for what's in-stock.

I have a small gun and pawn shop.  The dealer you were shopping at likely bought those pmags for 10 or 11 dollars just a few months ago.  Do you think that a 4-5 dollar profit is too much on those items?  I know that it costs me nearly $8k a month to pay overhead and expenses.   Guns are marked up 10-15% over cost.  Many of the high volume online dealers sell gun for $15 over my cost.

I have a couple of guns right now that are selling at PSA for $100 less than I paid for them 6 months ago.


I am not blaming you for shopping online, but know that your LGS is not trying to "rape" you on the pricing, just trying to manage to stay in business on very slim margins.  We can not survive on $20 transfer fees and when we close our doors where will you touch and feel the latest guns on the market?

HELL LOOK AT THE EE if it id over 700 it ain't sellin.

It's a perfect storm really

1) Crappy "recovery" thanks to BHO
2) declining real wages due to several things including globalization
3) average consumer stocked up last year
4) avg consumer also spent too much and needs to resore savings
5) production was increased (more merchants, machines and labor) so the market is susceptible  to flooding
6) bricks and mortar business was already at a structural disadvantage: now they have to deal with BHOcare too

Hard to compete with the internet and free shipping.  $450-$500 ARs, $7.99 mags at many of the well known online dealers.

I was at a gun show in Washington this weekend.  Full of overpriced junk.  Why on earth would I spend $900-1400 on a "tricked" out AR when I could buy two online for the same price.  The place was a ghost town and lots of the dealers were grumbling.  .22 LR for $50+ a box.  How about no.  The 2nd order affect of that is that if I can't buy the ammo, why on earth would I buy a weapon chambered for it?  So, not only am I not going to buy your overpriced ammo, I'm also not going to buy your over priced rifle either.

Recent deals on Pmag were as low as $7.99 shipped free over a certain threshold.  I may have ordered 30 if I remember right.  So I have a surplus that I can afford to sit on for as long as I want.  I'm not busting balls, but selling something at 60-70% over market isn't good business unless you have the only ones.

I honestly don't know how local shops can stay open without branching out into smithing, specialty hunting like archery, offering CCW or other courses, or being a range.  Most guns from high volume dealers on the net are marked up a flat $15 or $20.  Then factor in $25 for shipping and $20 for transfer you end up paying $55 over retail.  Assuming a dealer is charging 15% over retail any gun over $367 becomes more advantageous to order from the net.  That isn't even taking into account sales tax.

Then things like mags you can order them direct from major distributors.  Even large gun stores are paying within 5% of what your average guy can pay when mags go on sale.  Optics are even worse.  I have a feeling that kitchen table FFL's and gun stores that can branch into gun services are the ones that will make it.  The little shops that just sell guns don't stand a chance.

Might be bad past customer service creeping up on some of them.

I'm not blind to the fact that the local shop has to sell for more than the internet does and I'm willing to pay a "convenience fee" to get things I went right now.

Take one of my local shops as an example. I've been in that place on several occasions, with a large sum of money in my pocket, TRYING to give it to him.  I left empty -handed each and every time, mostly because he doesn't bother to get his stock out on a daily basis, because "It's not worth his time."

My brother has tried to order DSA FALs through the guy and I tried to get him to order me an LR-308. Both times he hadn't heard of them and showed absolutely no interest in trying to order one.

To top it off, when I went down to the local Sportsman's club, to shoot in their weekly .22 pistol match with a buddy of mine who's a member there, he was there, bitching because we arrived "late" They have a limited amount of lanes and cannot accommodate everyone who shows up in one heat, so they shoot multiple heats. We arrived in time to get into the last heat and was done before the next match was set to begin, but he was STILL an asshole to us over it, even though NO ONE else thought it was a big deal. Well, fuck you, Ted.

You know where I don't try to spend my money anymore? I hope the asshole does go out of business.

Another local gun shop has a long history of hit and miss service. I've dealt directly with the owner and his family on multiple occasions and, frankly, wasn't so impressed.  I only buy there if the price favors me anymore and it rarely does nowadays. There's plenty of competition and many of them have EARNED my loyalty.

I'm pretty spent for the rest of the year, but I have spent a decent amount on guns and ammo this year. If I find something I want and the price is halfway decent, I'll break the cash loose, no matter how much less expensive I can get it online. I don't like waiting or arraigning FFL transfers. I put a premium on being able to inspect what I'm buying personally and being able to take it home the same day. I don't think I'm the only guy out there who does, either.

Now if I find something I want and it's grossly overpriced.....well.....I'm not opposed to walking away, either.

I completely agree with all your points.   Customer service is the only thing I can offer over the internet sites.

I have a few customers that come in and ask if I can order something for them.  Typically they have looked online found what they want and ask if I can get it.  I explain that I can order it, but my wholesale cost is typically the same as they see at Bud's, after I pay shipping and mark it up 10% and then add 10% sales tax I am no longer cheap enough for them.  They typically decide to order it themselves and I do the transfer for $20.  Transfer fees don't pay the bills but it does buy lunch that day.

The other people want one of the impossible to get new on the market guns.  Those I rarely get since I am a small dealer and they are always allocated at the distributor level.

Soon there will not be any LGSs left to do transfers.

Listen to this guy. Walmart, PSA, Buds Gun Shop, they will all sell it to you cheaper than your local gunshop, but they don't do transfers.  When your local gunshop closes up, you won't be able to do transfers. This will happen.

Yep, money is tight BUT honestly I've passed on the last three firearms I was interested in purchasing because the dealer had them way over priced and wouldn't entertain any offer below asking price. On top of that a lot of what I see in shops is junk - cheapo bolt rifles with cheapo optics sold in a combo. I can imagine that crap isn't flying off the racks. And my local gun shop lost my business forever when the owner marked up all his Serbian, Romanian, and Bulgarian AKs, Korean, Bulgarian, and Romanian magazines, and Ukrainian import Mosins because "der ain't no more of dem coming from Russia." F him and his business, ignorant, price gouging A hole. So IMHO if gun dealers are struggling it is largely their own faults.

Every dealer and their uncle ordered from manufacturer's based on the demand after Obama, Sandy Hook, etc. Now that everybody has filled up on AR stuff the past 6 years, there's a glut, supply and demand.

Not hardly my friend... plenty of people out there have FFL's and don't depend on a gun shop to pay their bills... I know of 4 just in my IMMEDIATE area... one runs a successful Scuba shop.

marking up something because IT'S BEEN BANNED , is a load of shit on their part. A few LGS's it's like they're a front for something other than having the cash register ring.

slightly OT

The good guys have overhead, before they even turn the key in the morning. Having been involved in a few business'. It kills me when joe schmo says .I can get it cheaper, On line. Unfortunately you can, because most online store fronts, don't carry inventory. They have smoking deals, but always that disclaimer. SHIPPING TIME IS APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS FROM YOUR ORDER BEING PLACED.   Where have i heard that before mmmmmmmmmmmmmm PSA, comes to mind
So you ( NOT YOU YABADABADOO)  order from PSA then start a 5 page bitch session how PSA takes forever, blah, blah, piss n moan. While LGS has RRA or other vendor's uppers on hand, for $100 more. Nope they'll bitch about the on line order, then repeat the same shit 3 months later when the vendor has BCG's for $75, BUT OOS B/order only.

I'll spend the extra money so i'm up and running.

HOWEVER i will not spend $225 on a brownells $125 BCG, which we both know that's where you order from.OR the blem psa UPPERS FOR $550, BECAUSE you included a BCG and generic charging handle

I am always amazed how quickly we adapt or I should say forget how prices were.   $15 for a Pmag is not a rip off, doesn't everyone remember when they were $30 to $40 in 2012-13?????  

Or during the AWB when Ruger 10/22 50 rd mags were $200 and Glock 33rd mags were $200, HK91 mags $65, Beta Cmag $700, Steyr AUG 42 $150, Stoner SR25 20 mags $180 and busted up GI mags $30.

Hell I paid $65 for a HK 416 mag in 2008

This is a pretty good summary of what's going on

I don't mind waiting.  I'll save the money and don't complain about how long it takes.



For that matter, most items can be had cheaply and are in stock from online dealers.  Take BCG's - AIM has them for $75 each shipped if you buy three, and they'll be at my house in two days.



Most AR gear I've already got a spare I bought when it went on sale or they had a black Friday special.  Why would I spend $75 on a LPK, when I bought 3 for $100 last year and still have them all as spares.



Most the items I don't have spares for aren't sold locally anyways.  



I expect quite a few small gun shops to go under in the next year or two.  There will still be kitchen table FFL's for transfers, and if those dry up I can get my own FFL.



 

I try to support my LGS as much as possible, he has always been very fair in our dealings, that is much more than I can say for the only other FFL in my area!

I agree. Lots of part time jobs being added, few full time, no wage growth, higher expenses and health care costs, I think the economy is collapsing and they're cooking the numbers to look good.

Plus during the panic people got what they wanted at inflated prices are now licking their wounds.

Locally everybody is slow in the gun business. Two hole in the wall type niche gun shops have closed already this yr.

To do good in the gun business you have to be able to weather the slumps by diversifying , the two most successful local shops are combi gun/pawn type businesses with one only pawning guns and another that will take anything on pawn + does a ton of gunbroker gun sales .

Successful big LGS started small but kept growing, has a huge selection of guns at fair prices, always undercuts the big sporting goods store prices, has bow, clothing, fishing supplies, ammo, reloading....  Plus gives reasonable trade for many guns.

I have a friend in the biz who works primarily as a gunshow dealer. He has had a bad couple years. Sure, during the panics he sold out immediately of merchandise that he could sell (and did sell) for 5x what he paid for it. Then he had to pay the high prices to replace his inventory and while demand was still high, there wasn't enough product to be had so while his mark-up returned to normal, he was selling much less product. Then the bottom fell out and he was stuck with over-priced AKs and ARs that he sold at a loss. So, his realized profits averaged for the past two years are much lower than pre-Obama years. In addition, although he doesn't sell a lot of ammunition, the ammunition shortage has turned people off to buying new guns. His sales for guns chambered in .22 rimfire have slacked off to next to nothing despite the many new and interesting offerings from various manufacturers. On top of that he has to worry about all the ATF compliance issues and the liability that goes along with that.

That and the fact the  Obama economy has left the middle-class with little discretionary income.

Many are getting what they asked for and brought it on them selfs.

I was in Gander Mountain yesterday and they had a Magpul BAD priced at $44.95 which is 50% more than you can buy them direct for. Their 223/556 was also at least 40 cents/rnd which explains why they have so much of it. I will say what little 22LR they had was priced well (6 cents/rnd) so I bought some of that because one cannot have too much 22LR. :)

I was at a pretty big shop in my area last Sunday and didn't see a whole lot of people looking at ARs, I seen guys looking at shotguns, rimfires, small concealable handguns etc, I was able to snag a pretty good deal on a Gen4 22, but I only seen one guy looking at ARs, maybe people are fairly stocked after the last panic.

At this time, it is.  When you can get them for $8, 15 is entirely too much.  I find it funny that LGS's and their employees will complain about people buying online, having to price inventory high due to overheard, how the average gun owner will be up a creek without a paddle if/when they go under.....then they'll jack the shit out of their prices every time Obama says "Boo!" or there is a big shooting.  If they expect me to pay during a scare, then I expect them to eat it during a surplus.

I'll pay a higher price to a good LGS but at the same time, I'm not willing to pay out the nose because the market is soft.  

As alluded above, life is rough for anyone in the middle class - thank you, Barry.

Between the typical "gun shop attitude", high prices, limited stock and Obunghole's evisceration of the middle class, I can't imagine why the small gun shops are going extinct.

Had a discussion with a LGS about carrying a line of holsters.  Brand A was getting a lot traffic and inquiries at the store while Brand B was relatively unknown but had the higher profit margin.  Two weeks later, I see a rack of Brand B holsters.  Another two weeks, I see the same Brand B holsters--the holsters are not moving.  Smart.  

Weird. My LGS isn't having any issues. They're always busy and have stopped giving quotes on ordering guns, because the demand for guns is so high they have trouble knowing when anything is going to be available.

I suspect the issue is more with selling add-on "extras" -- extras whose sales often appear more driven by popularity than functionality.

And also depends if the LGS has a range to shoot at too.  The few shops around here are all over priced and two of them are indoor ranges.  One of the indoor ranges have OK CS has a shitty indoor range and sells at decent prices (Glock gen4s at 539). That's where I do business.  The other indoor range is still at panic prices 575-600 for Glocks.

Honestly my gun dealer is doing great. I think alot of it has to do with customer service. I buy from only him and he gives me great deals.

Most have covered the bases here.....however, I'd like to add that dealers out there who have been in business for a while (old timers) should understand what the internet is, and how it affects their business. Your attitude also affects your business. It's easier than ever to go elsewhere these days.

Smart people in the gun business knew what the last rush was, and saved up for the lull ahead. The shortsighted only saw a never ending gravy train and didn't plan properly.

We in the 2A community should be happy. There are more stocked EBR's and ammo in the hands of private individuals than ever before. Thanks Barry, you fuckin' shit burger wad. Who knew that arming your enemies well was a bad idea, eh?

I quit using my local guy when I had two people come into my clinic asking about that fancy new gun that "Joe" at the gunshop told them I bought.  He's a nice guy, but if I want the town to know my business, I will tell them about it.  Found someone about 25 miles away who understands confidentiality.  Again, nothing to see here, but really don't like everyone knowing my business.  All I need is an 18 yr old crack head to know I bought a Benelli.

Doc

I'll admit right up front I did not read past the first page.

Life in the real world is just not as simple as some of you like to make it appear.

There are several complex issues facing local gun shop owners right now - in some cases they are doing the best they can, in other cases, they are just failing to adapt, and more than a few customers are aggravating the problems.    

For example:

1. it's expensive to maintain a brick and mortar shop and it really sucks for the LGS when would be buyers come in and get greasy, acidic finger prints all over the guns he has to pay cash on order or on delivery for and then sit on for months, and then lose a sale because a "customer" uses his shop to test drive and compare the huns he's interested in - then buys them on line to save $50.  

2. Those same customers are usually the same folks who are the first to bitch about a $50 transfer fee to transfer their online purchase.  They seem to miss the connection that the LGS has substantial money tied up in being able to provide firearms to look at,  and then makes no money at all when they lose the sale to an on-line dealer.  They also have to deal with the paper work and take the heat and pay the fines if amy of it gets done incorrectly when ATF sends a few people to spend a few days poking though every sale, firearm and inventory record in the business.  $50 is reasonable, $35 is cheap.  Quit yer bitch'in

3. In the past, dealers were able to order firearms from their distributors and have them delivered on the little brown truck in under a week.   That was convenient for customers, and worked well for the shop as special orders were easy and did not tie up funds for long periods, so pricing could reflect that.  In the last couple years however it's been a case where the distributor wants an order for the entire year in January, and then will ship them to you if/when they are available.  So special orders are much more difficult, and the dealer has to try to predict what will be in demand over the next year and then hope he gets it.  

On the other hand:

4. Many shops have decided the shortage means they can charge outrageous prices for things like ammo, when their costs from their distributors is no more than 10-15% higher than it was in October 2012 before the shortage.  The gouging by LGSs and online dealers and the high profits to be made is what then fuels the gouging by locals who buy and hoard ammo from outlets like wall mart and non gouging on-line sources, and then re-sell the ammo at outrageous prices.  And of course that only works because enough shooters are dumb enough and short sighted enough to keep paying those prices.      

5. If I buy a gun in a local gun shop I realize that I am paying more but I am doing that in exchange for a higher level of service.  That includes being able to put greasy acidic finger prints all the firearms I may be interested in and carefully inspect the firearm I am purchasing.  Then I get to take it home today and If I have problems with it, I expect the LGS to deal with the company to get it fixed - if not to just replace it outright.  That's the level of service that justifies the higher price.  

As an extra bonus I also would like a level of experience and professional knowledge that will help guide my selection - not some "self proclaimed" expert who wastes my time spouting BS. Unfortunately many shops come up very short on all of the above points.

---

As an example, a Ruger SP-101 I bought at a local gun shop.   The shop had 2 they had just received in stock.  I inspected one, that looked fine in terms of timing and cylinder gap and took it home.  The following day on its first trip to the range it leaded like nobody's business and I took it back to the shop.  My expectation was that ideally, they'd just swap it out for the other one in the cabinet and send the defective one back to Ruger.  Alternatively, but still acceptable, I expected them to take the revolver and deal with Ruger to get it repaired or replaced and let me know when  it was back.   What they did was express their condolences and suggest I look up Ruger's customer serve number on the internet and work with Ruger myself.  Apparently they regarded it as my problem as soon as it was sold.  

Working with Ruger to get it fixed has been a major PITA and an on-going 3 month saga.  Ruger is finally replacing it as they have determined it is "non-repairable".  However, since they are shipping me a new revolver, rather than returning my old one, it has to go to a dealer.  I went back to this same shop explaining the situation (remember me?  the POS you sold me still does not work, and Ruger is sending me a new one) and arranged for it to be shipped to them.   My expectation is that they will not charge a transfer fee as it's a warranty replacement issue on a revolver I bought from them.  We'll see how that turns out.  

The kicker is that the other SP-101 is still in the cabinet.  Odds are it will still be there tomorrow when I pick up my new one.  Which basically means the cost to the shop of just swapping them the day after I bought them would have been $0, and that I put up with 3 months of inconvenience and non availability of a revolver for nothing.  To add insult to injury, the shop owner indicated he had been interested in getting it for himself, but based on my experience he's leery.  Really?  If he'd have swapped it, he'd have found out within 24 hours whether it also had problems (at my expense with my ammo) and if it was defective as well he'd have known it and had it's replacement back about now as well. As it is, he's still at risk of burning yet another customer.  That's just not a smart way to do business.  

All in all it sucks for me as a customer, but it is what it is.  No sense worrying about it because there's not much I can do about it now.  It'll get it replaced and then I'll move on.

Which is where the shop loses money,  As in the end, they've lost a customer who on average probably buys a gun every month or two - but I just won't be buying anything from them.  

---

In the big picture LGSs face major challenges as the firearms industry, like some other industries, has not yet figured out how to adapt to an internet environment.  The average LGS has not realized that the only way they will survive is to learn to work with the internet, rather than against it, and to add value for the customer in all the transactions they are involved with.



 

There are still a lot of kitchen table FFLs.

This. I've gone into the local places lately and the prices are still panic high on ammo and mags. Everything is starting to collect dust. It's not that people don't have money. Ive got money to burn, but I can't get much of what I actually want locally and prices are high.

Im still waiting for ammo to hit bottom.  Its definitely coming down

All going according to the plan by the POS Anti American leader in power.

Bullshit.  I know too many FFL's without brick and mortar who are more than successful.  ALL of them have regular full time jobs, and do the FFL stuff on the side.  They know the internet cannot be beat, accept it, and do transfers as much of their business.  Additionally, they still sell a good majority of firearms at prices that are sometimes better than what is found on the internet.  One local guy advertises that he will get any gun a customer wants and will charge only a very small percentage over his cost to make somewhat of a profit.

Local shop near me has nice people working in there.  Always greeted with a "hello, how are you?"

However, their prices make it seem like they dont want to sell anything.  I want to support them, but cant accept their prices.

Im sorry, I dont want to pay $599 for a refinished k frame that "was really rough when we got it"



Or $2000 $1800 $1500 $1200 for a Bushmaster Patrolman thats been sitting there since Sandy Hook

You mean to tell me that when they were bringing in money hand over fist that they didn't put away some for a rainy day? Not very good business sense if they didn't see that coming.

Times are tough for everyone--lost my job a month ago due to "changes in the business" (ya right)---immediately found another job but for less pay----only reason I'm doing ok is that I just got the car paid off--my rent--child support--food ---gas and utilities didn't go down one bit.

Once I get back on my feet some--I'll be in the market for a few new toys BUT will be very price sensitive----not to mention I need a new bed , couch etc................

There are a lot of gun stores in business that have no  business being. The next few years, barring new legislation or another school shooting, will reset the market a little bit.

There are probably 8x more AR manufacturers than there should be when you consider that most are simply assembling other people's parts.

People will keep shooting, people will keep buying guns, but there are going to be some great deals in the coming months.

     It reminds me of the snowmobile industry.  When it first took off in the 60s and 70s there were 30+ manufacturers.  Now there are 4.  And if we get a few winters of little or no snow the dealers have new models sitting in crates from several different model years.  Then one year the snow will pile high and people will be lined up to buy any inventory they have.