DUPE!
sorry, had to

Are you Fred?

Quoted: Are you Fred?

I've wondered the same, but no matter.
The men are kindred spirits.

preach on raf!

Last winter this applied to me.  13,000 rds ro so of actual practice later, (mostly 22lr), and it does not apply so much anymore.  

But like Raf said, most here are wannabe's.

Don't be such a hater. Buying gear makes the AR world go 'round.

Acquisition of gear is the first step toward acquisition of skills.  

Some will follow this path.... so will not.

Some.... lack the desire, time, or discipline to improve.

For many others.... it will begin with a fascination in a weapon system.... and however slowly, skill will improve the more we shoot.  Some of us will even go so far as to pay for classroom and outside instruction.  But for the a large majority.... the resources available to us are 100yd bench ranges.  Hopefully, most of us will use that to improve our marksmanship.... but some will not.

Some people... just like to own cool looking weapons, and go out, and bump fire the hell out of them.

And that is fine with me.  Better than not owning them at all.  

I'd rather spend my time with high-speed low drag wanna-be's..... than non-gun-enthusiasts.

who cares what everyone does with their money?

If you own a sports car, can you drive like a Formula 1 or Nascar driver?

I have to agree with the statement that the deer don't have too much to worry about with the sighting in sessions I watched at the range. I'm also glad that our club put in prone positions at the range. It did kinda freak out some of the hunters when I was shooting my evil black rifle prone while they carefully set up their sandbags and spotting scopes on the benches.

So, is airsoft ghey?

just kidding, well said. I don't have a problem with having good equipment, but that does not replace trigger time. I wonder how many "gear queers" would let their buddys use their uber-toys as a step to boost them onto a roof? Guns are tools. Knives are tools. Ive seen people with Benchmade knives who didnt want to use them and mess them up.

One of the advantages of living in the sticks is I can shoot off my back porch. It allows me to practice a lot.

Who pissed in your Wheaties?

Quoted: After listening to most of you for years, I have come to the conclusion that  MOST of you can't shoot worth a hoot.  Most of you have fallen into the trap of latching onto some new goodie in the hope that it will somehow transform you from a plinker into an expert shot. This site is, if you look at the numbers of posts,  primarily concerned with the acquisition of equipment, NOT the development of skill.  Not that there's people around here to impart same, just that most refuse to listen and learn. I've been to a few local shoots, and if the mix of people there is representative, we are in trouble.  Fine fellows, all, but not the greatest shots.  No offense intended, just fact.  And don't get me wrong.  I don't claim to be the end-all of marksmen, either,  Point is, I admit it, and try to do something about it.  Namely developing SKILL instead of  buying some miracle device. Some of you shoot off a bench with high-quality handloads, and consider that your standard.-- Get off the bench and see what the real word is like.  Heaven forbid, but if you should ever have to use your firearm for what it was intended for, a bench is most likely the last thing you'll find. I could go on and on over a range of topics, but I won't for now. BTP said it well: "I'd rather have 1,000 rds of skill and 100 rds of ammo than 1100 rds of ammo and no skill" I'll go out on a limb and guess that a huge percentage of shooters here have never properly sighted-in their firearms.  Too much work for most of 'em.  Besides, doing that would interfere with their bump-firing practice.  Based on my experience, over the years, with hunters zeroing their rifle, the deer have nothing to worry about. Most people here seem to confuse the mere possession of equipment with skill in using their firearm with said accessory attached.  Pure B.S. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  There's no way of proving it, but I'll put my money on a good shooter behind an M-1917 US rifle against the lot of you. Maybe  I shouldn't be surprised.  After  all, the saying is"99% of anything is crap".  Why shouldn't that include firearms owners, too? Those of you to whom this rant doesn't pertain;   Slack off. Let the dweebs respond.

FULL POWER SHOT!

This year with 50 shots fired I took 42 squirrels with a 10/22 in eight days.   @ 200yrds I can hit a pie plate size gong target 30 out of 30 times off handed with my Bushmaster Dissipator.

Dweeb?  Funny how you worded that so anyone that responds is a dweeb without you actually violating the TOS.  Or is dweeb such a non-decript insult that it is acceptible to the tender sensibilities of the ar15.com lawyers?

Oh you've been to some shoots with some fine fellows and you don't claim to be the end all of marksmen.  Exactly who among them claimed to be as much?  So while you are improving your limited shooting skills how about you STFU.

When you develope your skill to a point at which you can shoot a flea off a Chihuahua's ass then you will have earned the right to bitch all you want.

The fact that you are "site staff" doesn't enpower you to automatically tag anyone who responds to your post as a dweeb in spite or your frustrations.

Put your money behind anything you want Mr. Site Staff Boy but if you really think a good shooter behind a M-1917 can take the lot of us then you should probably work on your skills with a M-1917 and impress us all with your skeeelz before you start spouting off as if you had any skills with an M-1917.

Please do go on.  

I have come to the conclusion that MOST of you can't shoot worth a hoot.

Put up or shut up dweeb.  

From Freds: Becoming a Rifleman          There is no point in owning a rifle if you can't shoot it accurately.          After all, why own a race car, and not be able to drive it?          That M1A, FN-FAL, AR-15, M1 Garand - congratulate yourself if you own one, then own up the responsibility implied by that ownership - to be ready, to be proficient, to be able to pass the traditon on, to be able, if necessary, to defend liberty and freedom.      Because the founders placed the burden of defending liberty on YOUR shoulders, and put the 2nd Amendment in just to prove it. You want to be ready if - when - the time comes.      Key is to find out what your shooting abilities with a rifle are now.      Yeah, yeah, I know you are a great shot. But how well would you do on a standard Army Qualification Test? Think you could shoot "expert" or better?...................................... more can be found here:www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifle.asp?ITEM=1 and here: www.fredsm14stocks.com/rifle.asp?ITEM=2

My suggestion is for everyone to read this......................and practice becoming a Rifleman, afterall it's just paper

dude....you're from Rhode Island.....are guns even legal there?!? so please don't lecture me on my shooting prowess

and also, anyone with time to make 11,000 + posts, doesn't really frighten me at the range for some reason.

Anyway what's it to you to that these fellas want nice equipment?  I personally have no taste for all that jazz either, and I probably couldn't afford it if I did but I don't go around criticizing all those that do.  Sounds to me like you need to get off your high horse, because if it weren't all those people out there that enjoy doing those kind of things...guess what this website wouldn't exsist.

That said, I'm gonna STFU now......my $.02

I agree - many of the keyboard commandos here like to find excuses not to measure themselves. IPSC shooting may not be the ne plus ultra of combat tactics training, but its a great and impartial measure of shooting ability under stress. I see a lot of people turn up at matches with riflea adorned with the latest tactical wiz bang accessories, only to fail miserably in the unforgiving competitive environment. Many skulk back to the desert where they prefer to refine their tactical mag dump techniques.

Quoted: After listening to most of you for years, I have come to the conclusion that  MOST of you can't shoot worth a hoot.  Most of you have fallen into the trap of latching onto some new goodie in the hope that it will somehow transform you from a plinker into an expert shot. This site is, if you look at the numbers of posts,  primarily concerned with the acquisition of equipment, NOT the development of skill.  Not that there's people around here to impart same, just that most refuse to listen and learn. I've been to a few local shoots, and if the mix of people there is representative, we are in trouble.  Fine fellows, all, but not the greatest shots.  No offense intended, just fact.  And don't get me wrong.  I don't claim to be the end-all of marksmen, either,  Point is, I admit it, and try to do something about it.  Namely developing SKILL instead of  buying some miracle device. Some of you shoot off a bench with high-quality handloads, and consider that your standard.-- Get off the bench and see what the real word is like.  Heaven forbid, but if you should ever have to use your firearm for what it was intended for, a bench is most likely the last thing you'll find. I could go on and on over a range of topics, but I won't for now. BTP said it well: "I'd rather have 1,000 rds of skill and 100 rds of ammo than 1100 rds of ammo and no skill" I'll go out on a limb and guess that a huge percentage of shooters here have never properly sighted-in their firearms.  Too much work for most of 'em.  Besides, doing that would interfere with their bump-firing practice.  Based on my experience, over the years, with hunters zeroing their rifle, the deer have nothing to worry about. Most people here seem to confuse the mere possession of equipment with skill in using their firearm with said accessory attached.  Pure B.S. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  There's no way of proving it, but I'll put my money on a good shooter behind an M-1917 US rifle against the lot of you. Maybe  I shouldn't be surprised.  After  all, the saying is"99% of anything is crap".  Why shouldn't that include firearms owners, too? Those of you to whom this rant doesn't pertain;   Slack off. Let the dweebs respond.

That you, Fred???  - hahaha.... Actually, I'm pretty much in agreement with you, Raf...



 - georgestrings

All:
Lighten up, we have transformed millions of folks from non or neophyte shooters into marksmen, sharpshooters, and experts.  Which one they become is based mostly on how closely they follow our PMI and of course good eyesight is required too.  I wholeheartedly agree that practice is a prerequisite to becoming an accurate and efficent shooter.  ARMY PMI conducted by the worlds finest Non Commisioned Officers drills into a Soldier the proper hold, sight picture, breathing, trigger pull and other critical skills.  An interesting factoid is that back when we recieved our M16A2 rifles which were brand new, the range scores went up at least 10%.  I almost predicted this since the zero group was SMOA.  The biggest thing that made a difference was the fact that the muzzels were not screwed up by a GI running a steel sectional rod through the barrel.  I still find folks wanting to rod me off the range with one and I not so discreetly tell them they are not going to do it with a steel rod.  I hope that this discussion stays positive as I have enjoyed getting on line when I get computer access to see what is going on with the civilian world based around our still in service rifle.  

May you all have a blessed Christmas

The Army Owns the Night
GOD bless America
Very Respectfully,
David
South West Asia

Some of us can't afford to practice or train as much as the rest of you.  

So if you'd like to make a doination to the College Shooter Ammo fund, IM me. . . .

Quoted: Some of us can't afford to practice or train as much as the rest of you.   So if you'd like to make a doination to the College Shooter Ammo fund, IM me. . . .

Buck up!  Sacrifices must be made... set aside the cash for at least a case of ammo per semester.  Minimum.  



- BG

Some of you shoot off a bench with high-quality handloads, and consider that your standard.-- Get off the bench and see what the real word is like. Heaven forbid, but if you should ever have to use your firearm for what it was intended for, a bench is most likely the last thing you'll find.

Shooting off a bench is nothing more than a tool for wringing the last bit of accuracy out of a bullet / rifle combo. Trigger control, judging wind drift / drop... consistancy, can be applied to all shooting disiplines. It is especialy useful in the field when belly down in the field trying to hit a chuck 400yds away. Varmint hunters are some of the best marksmen I have ever run across.

While I am a fair shot offhand it is my least prefered stance while hunting....I'll use whatever cover I have access to at the time. Working on the offhand tho.....Ciener dedicated upper and a couple thousand rounds of 22LR.

Raf - I for one believe you're on the right track. And I put a fair amount of effort into improving my shooting skill. This morning shot consistently around 2" at 250 yds. w/ my scoped AR off the bipod. Cold and breezy! Good fun! Next trip will probably be my Garand prone and sitting. No benches for me. Or steel at 200 with my Remington .22 pump. Benches should be used only for sight in and load testing. Now offhand? (insert sadface here) THAT I have to work on......................

I agree with Raf on shooters in general,maybe not so much with the members of this site but have seen too many at the range only shoot off the bench,and sandbag their rifle so they could all but tie a string to the trigger and shoot.I went to a local store last week to pickup my xd 40,they have an underground range there and I shit you not they charge 20 bucks to sight in your rifle.Deer season was winding down,and there was an asshat at the counter bitching cause they sighted in his rifle but he missed a deer,and he either wanted it done right or his money backAt the range I am a member of,you cant shoot at 100 or 200 yrds except off of the bench,no exceptions.The bench is long enough though that you can crawl up onto it and shoot from a "modified" prone off your elbows.You can shoot standing,sitting squatting etc at 25 yrds though,that is where I do about 95% of my shooting.I am trying to be able to shoot into 1" @ 25 yrds from all positions,although I aint there yet standing,more like about 3" and that is using the sling around my arm.Also the shooting cadence is about 1 round a second or there abouts.I am working on it

Some of us actually shoot in competitions such as Highpower/JC Garand matches, IDPA and such. I assume you are not talking about us.
BTW, I usually enjoy reading Freds writings but sometimes he does go off the deep end. After all the troops are gonna need chow and that means some one has to do the cooking....

Not everyone is all that interested in improving their marksmanship.  There seems to be a higher than normal proportion of owners/collectors on this site than on others I've spent time on in the past.

Some folks also have more money than time.  Buying a gun is quick, easy, and gratifying compared getting up early every weekend to drag your ass out to a match -- let alone preparing for the match the day before.

I'd also guess that many folks who would be interested in developing their skills just don't have a good place to shoot.  The club I belong to has a 600-yd range but no gongs, for instance.  You have to shoot paper and the shooters are mostly of the hardcore competitive type who are more worried about what sort of handload is the latest and greatest rather than a practical course of fire.  Outside of this one club, there is no other range in the county that allows rifles.

I just happened to stumbles across this post.  I like it, because it made me think, and realize I do know my limitations and skills.

When one becomes old enough to have to wear bifocals and then try and line up (and see clearly)  two sites plus the target, not all three will even be close to being able to see like when we had 20-20 vision in our youth.

That said, I use a 12 guage, for home defense, backed up by optic mounted rifles/carbines in 223 and 308.  If it were legal, I'd put some trip flares and a few claymores around my premiter just to make sure.  Some hand gernades would be nice too.  I do have the mind-set to win!  Too bad all the necessary "tools" aren't legally available.  

When I joined ArfCom, I was relatively new to shooting. Outside of actual experience, everything I know, I pretty much learned at ArfCom. I appreciate it, but I do see a few things as down falls to this site.

General Discussion, and the General forums all together for the most part. Go look at the common posters in GD. Very rarely will you ever see them in any tech forums. "Supposed" experts, that have nothing to add except for topics about what toilet paper they prefer. WTF is with that. So many people that could probably add something of value to the tech forums, simply don't. Then you see these same people talk about what's wrong with the site?

If you see something wrong, post about it. For those of us that don't care what rail system looks the best, we would appreciate some activity outside of topics about "how old you were when you first got laid while drunk and on acid in the back of a car." So many people that seem to know so much refuse to step outside of GD.  

Don't blame the "tacticians" and gear whores either. Many of us can tell who does, and who doesn't know what they're talking about. It's not the gear group that ruins it, it's the knowledgeable people's inability to supply advice and insight.

I'm not talking about you raf, I'm talking about the other long time memers that do nothing but complain about what the site has turned into, yet do nothing but post in GD in the most retarded topics anyone could ever dream of.

Don't complain unless you participate in the discussions. If I see something dumb, I say something. I reccomend ammo and practice with another small group, while others reccomend rails and lasers. In the long run, most people will listen to logic, but the lack of logic is what causes the problems. Post about ways to help the site, not criticize it. Grouping the whole site togther will just make things worse in the long run.

Just my (probably worthless and ignored) opinion.

(Oh, and awhile back I was shreaded because I don't have a membership. The real kicker was that it was by some one who's never posted anything helpful, or probably visited the tech forums at all for that matter. I guess maybe I have to pay the money, and post the most childish things I can think of in GD to really contribute to ArfCom. )

There's my rant for the day.

I like doing both. I consider my guns a tool and as art.

As a collector of art, I have been known to pay upwards of $1,000 each piece I acquire.

Every piece I acquire is used out on the range. When I load a bullet into the chamber of

my peice of art, it no longer becomes art, it becomes a tool.


I have 22 peices of art in their display case. I have no safe queens, all my guns have

been used. You may call me one of those who just acquire guns. Dont be so quick to judge.

Just because I buy a .30/06 handgun or a .45-70 revolver doesnt mean I am not going to

shoot it, I AM going to shoot it until I run out of ammo.


I am not just going to buy one bolt action rifle and shoot it for five hours at the range to

develop skill. I am going to buy everything I can so I can have fun and gain skill at the

same time.


At the age of fourteen my dad bought an SAR-1. Since then I've been looking up everything

I can about guns in general. I develop skill by taking my guns out all the time shooting.

I also collect alot of weapons many people call outrageous, unnaccurate, and impractical.


Whenever they ask why, my answer is always the same.

"Because I fucking can."

Raf you make some good points sir.  I almost didn't respond to your post because I'm sure I fall into the 99%.  However I thought it might be constructive to let you know what goes through my head when I buy something like an ACOG (which by the way has made me a better shot)

It is an American man's duty to be well armed.  History has shown American civilians to be difference makers in battle.  I'm not saying I could turn the tide of a fight or even that I would know what to do, I'm not in the Army.  I'm not saying I will have the chance, in fact I seriously doubt that the day will every come.  I'm not saying I'm made of the same stuff as the men at Saratoga or Gettysburg or Iwo Jima or Iraq.  Having said that, my job is the same as an American man to be well armed and ready if the day comes and my loved ones lives are on the line.  

It is my job to provide for and to protect my family and because of this I want the most reliable, versatile, high capacity weapon I can buy.  I understand there are people with much more knowledge of rifles than myself, you sir are most likely one of these people.  So I chose the rifle our military uses because people that know much more than me about firearms chose this rifle for the best military in the history of the world.  Not to mention ammo, magazines, parts, etc.

True, owning these rifles does not make civilians soldiers.  I have never made that kind of foolish claim and I never will.  I do not know how I would react under fire.  I do not know how to move, shoot, and communicate with a group in combat.  That's not the point.  The fact is that if somebody wishes to harm the ones most dear to me, they have to go through my rifle.  It's not about hitting an 8" target at 300 yards.  

Solid, well-armed American citizens make this country stronger, period.  I'm not a SEAL, but I'm not a sheep either.  Yes I'd love to have more time to shoot.  I'd like to be a better shot, goodness knows I can improve.  Regardless of how much time I spend shooting, a well trained combat tested soldier with an M1917 would turn me into worm food.  It would be no contest.  

I do not confuse the possession of equipment with skill.  That is hardly the case.  My hope is that I can learn what the best equipment to purchase is from the people who actually use it for a living.  The equipment doesn't make me a warrior.  Owning it makes me prepared to make a difference if, God forbid, that day comes.

Hope this is what you were looking for from one of the dweebs.

Quoted: Buck up!  Sacrifices must be made... set aside the cash for at least a case of ammo per semester.  Minimum.   - BG

My rifles eat better than I do already!

Nothing but brass cased LC XM-855 and XM-193.  And BH match loads.  

I look forward to my holiday meals when they are consisting of Ramen noodles and spam!

Quoted: dry fire is free so is reading

Reading isn't too much of a help to me.  Dry fire is good to a point, but nothing beats a day on the range.  
And I shoot hipower in the summer. . . .

I shoot for me. I do it as a hobby and have found I am pretty good at it. I do own some toys, but I looked and looked and looked to make sure what I was wanting was what I was buying. I carry a gun on a daily basis for self defense, and I am confident in my handling of it.

I'll agree with the "wannabee" quotient on this forum.

Majority of people here have never learned how to sight in any rifle properly. Most have had no formal education in firearms and tactics and most have never been in the military. I often end up trying to defend myself against chairborne ranger because most of them think force on force training using simmunition/paintball/airsoft/MILES is useless. They would go on and on about the uselessness of using a simulator since it does not teach "BRM."

If you were ever in the military the idea of BRM and SPORT as something that is ingrained in your head from the start. Yet most people on here think that using paintball isn't good training because it doesn't simulate the "trigger pull, functioning, ergonomics" of the Ar15. These same morons are the ones that probably think shooting while standing, low crawl from point to point and shooting is useless since it doesn't help with "familirity with the fire control."

I personally shoot at least 2,000 rounds of ammunition per month to keep my skills up to the basic level I learned while in the Army. I doubt most of the people on this board shoots 2,000 round a year. I find that mentality prevalent at any local gun range. Most often the 10 people beside me in a pistol course puts out 50 rounds per session trying to hit 1 inch dots while standing in the exact same position and using the same methods over and over again. I go in and dump 500 rounds through my 1911 shooting a fist sized hole in my target till it starts to droop form every position and hold possible. They would often sneer at my 5 inch groups from 10 yards versus their 1 inch groups; though they don't realize that 5" group probbaly had 100 rounds through it compare to their precise 1" groups with barely 10 over the exact same time frame. Than I take my time and dump 2 mags into a 1" hole and most tend to just turn away.

At the rifle range I find the exact same idiots sitting on their bench shooting their tricked out rifle as if they think real targets will ever sit at 100 yards for 30 minutes with absolutely no movement. I now refuse to shoot a tthe public range and always rent a private range so me and my few close friends can practice our shooting which often involved crawling around and a fair bit of dirt.

I bet that 90% of the 1 MOA crowd on this board would crap their pants and won't even be on target if they had to do 15 minutes of PT, crawl 10 meters in between each shot and have 5 seconds per shot. It's not just the sad state of affairs when someone think basic BRM is "hard" and anything beyond that is just silly since we all know conflicts are fought with two shooters sitting on  abench at 100 yards during a sunny afternoon.

You knw all you really need to  practice at your marksmanship is about 25 meters, 87 feet with a AQT

Honestly that little target can be a real bitch if you get stale or haven't shot for a while.

Quoted: dude....you're from Rhode Island.....are guns even legal there?!? so please don't lecture me on my shooting prowess and also, anyone with time to make 11,000 + posts, doesn't really frighten me at the range for some reason. That said, I'm gonna STFU now......my $.02

Well, I've seen raf shoot, cowboy, and he's pretty darned good. He's won all of the shoots at my club that he's shot, with some fairly diverse weaponry, and excellent scores. Besides which, what has location or local law have to do with the validity of his post?

He's seen me shoot, and probably thinks I'm pretty darned bad, which I was when we shot together. I'm usually not THAT bad

IMO, a lot has to do with practice, some with attitude. Lots of folks don't have access to ranges. Some have had no real instruction. Some need remedial coaching....some folks just want to make noise and have fun, riflery is not a serious enterprise with them, or they don't know where to get off the ground.

Hell, I get to the range so infrequently now that the matches are my only practice/ t&e ground. I almost never get to the range otherwise.

Interesting rant, raf.

And yeah, Tex, guns are legal here. We were burning British ships long before Texas was a twinkle in Sam Houstons eye..

Quoted: ranges i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/meets/Lytle_run.jpg i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/meets/Lytle_run3.jpg i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/meets/Lytle_run2.jpg

BINGO. Our Practical Rifle night shoot is coming up this weekend. SHOOT! MOVE! COVER! etc. etc. Lots of fun. First time out...I was very jittery. Second time..much better.

That said, I also just pulled off 3" at 300 yards (no breeze) the other day with a semi-varmiter AR-15.

The trigger pull (not yank), breathing, etc. all have merit when you're running around in a gravel pit playing "Army".

Yeah, ranges.

Quoted:I have come to the conclusion that MOST of you can't shoot worth a hoot . I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There's no way of proving it, but I'll put my money on a good shooter behind an M-1917 US rifle against the lot of you.

Come to Tennessee and say that you dad-burned Rhode Island Yankee! I might be kin to Sgt.
Alvin York.

raf:  Are you talking about one of these packages?  Fred's

The NRA was started, by among others, Ambrose Burnside, a naturalized Rhode Islander.
Take that, Yankee bashers.

raf, the truth hurts.

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