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Posted: 6/29/2005 6:38:08 PM EDT
I hear it often. Its not uncommon for people with little to no firearms experience to come and ask for “something” for their home.
It happened again the other day, with a couple in their 20s. They both admit to having fired guns in the past, but have never owned any. Of course the “girl” is the concern, they want something she can use. There are two other people in the shop with me. A city Cop(Police Station is next door), and a regular customer. Cop says 12 gauge shotgun, other guy says revolver, and I say AR. We intensely discuss amongst the 3 of us why the other is wrong, and the couple leaves totally confused without buying anything. I have a young lady who helps me out in the shop part time. She’s not a shooter, knows little about firearms, but handles customers and phone calls better than I am willing to. The extent of her firearms knowledge is she completed one of my basic pistol/CCW classes. She understands the basics and can hammer away at the bullseye with a .22 all day long. She doesn’t own a pistol of her own, and has never fired a rifle or shotgun. What a PERFECT guinea pig! I cant imagine someone closer to “picked off the street” while still knowing basic firearms safety. We closed up shop, grabbed a revolver, an AR and a shotgun and headed to the range. I set up the target, and paced off 25’. I walked back to the target and told her to start counting “Mississippis” when I started to run, and to stop when I got to her. She didn’t have time to get out the 3rd Mississippi. There was her scenario, bad guy is coming at her, and she knows how much time she has to get off 3 shots. She’ll do this 3 times with each firearm. Shes familiar with the Revolver, so its first. It’s a S&W 686 KG koted black with a Crimson Trace laser grip, and custom low pro sights. At this distance the dot is visible.   686 video Second is the AR. I grabbed the least expensive one in the shop, RRA CAR A4. I installed an Aimpoint from a display and swapped on a Fobus forend and vertical grip; sufficient for home defense. I spent a few minutes going over how to hold the carbine, position, and such, some dry firing, but NO live fire. The only live rounds fired will be at the target.   AR video Finally we have the shotgun. Simple, Remington 870, w/20” barrel. The ammo will be PMC low recoil 00 Buck. Again, this is new so I spent a few minutes going over how to hold the shotgun, position, and such, some dry firing, but NO live fire. The only live rounds fired will be at the target. Before anything else, I cant tell you how impressed I am with the way she handled the shotgun. It looked brutal, but she toughed it out for the 3 round string. She chose not to fire the shotgun a second and 3rd time.  12 Gauge video Keep in mind the “I want something for home defense” buyers aren’t shooters, and don’t hang out in gun forums. These are people who make a purchase, shot it once and toss it in a drawer/closet. What they need is something that is easy to use, easy to control, and something they can use without much practice. Here are the 3 targets, judge for yourself which would make a better home defense weapon for her. Before the first shot was fired, she know it would be the revolver, but changed her mind when she was done. 686  AR  Shotgun 
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:13:51 PM EDT
[#1]
very interesting post!
I had a similar experience with someone I know. The first few shots with the shotgun were way off target, but after about 3 3-shot groups they were all right at COM. The pistol never got consistenly on the paper (admittedly this was with .40, which is not an easy pistol for a beginner to shoot). I did not try with rifle. |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:17:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Had a guy here just last week tell me that an AR was a bad choice for a newb. It was when I was asking about dedicated lefty rigs. Seems he might have been wrong????
ETA: Is that a laser grip on that 686? How come she didn't use that. 
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:22:57 PM EDT
[#3]
She did. Its amazing. I thought having a laser guaranteed hits? 
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:30:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Excellent post!
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:33:25 PM EDT
[#5]
cool post.
i would like to see her shoot a 20 gauge to compare. ed to ask how far away is she? |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:34:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Look at that poor girl's shoulder when firing the shotgun.
 What reactions did the dis-believers have to the results?
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:41:53 PM EDT
[#7]
The "idea" of a newb with anything but a BB gun or .22 LR is kinda spooky . This startin at the top . Of course IF someone is going to be trained thats differant....Depending on the trainer . WOW 1st gun an AR15 .
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Posted: 6/29/2005 1:43:42 PM EDT
[#8]
What a great post, thanks for the effort. I've had this conversation with my wife over what she would like alongside the bed when I'm out of town. She has no frickin clue, as do I, on what to grab when the STHF. I can safely say that the 12 gauges will not be an option. Hopefully the bad guys will give me some time to shop through my safe to pick the appropriate firearm. I know from LEO experience what I'm profficient with, but appropriate is another matter.
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Posted: 6/29/2005 2:58:27 PM EDT
[#9]
8 paces away, around 20 feet. 20 gauge wouldnt have mattered much. She had a "coach" on the shotgun, and the whole "just point it at the target" theory didnt seem to really work. The fact that she refused to shoot it again shows me that if someone refusues to practice with something, its best to forget about it. |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 3:02:04 PM EDT
[#10]
I don't understand this logic. High school dropouts have been operating them for going on forty years. They aren't that complicated nor are they that powerful. Ammo is cheap and readily available. Sounds like an excellent starting point to me. |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 5:43:02 PM EDT
[#11]
<--- 1st rifle was an AR15 
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Posted: 6/29/2005 6:08:34 PM EDT
[#12]
It's a laser sight, not laser guided. Shooting a handgun takes quite a bit more skill to shoot consistantly than shooting a rifle. The effective range of a handgun is about 25 feet (about 8 yards, not even enough for a touchdown). The results of the "test" are exactly what is expected of a new shooter. For home defence, weilding a rifle may not be the best way. Especially if you have to use only 1 hand (such as carryinga child away, opening doors, holding a phone, etc...). Shooting an AR type of rifle requires the proper sight picture for shooting in handgun range, where the high site over bore must be compensated. If you shot someone out at 50 yards (where POI = POA) you'd be in trouble in court. A shotgun is not the best option as it is extremaly unweidly, and shooting it with effect is difficult at best. Also, controling the shot pattern to all hit the target is a liability. A semi-auto handgun with good ammo is best IMO. However proper training on how to use it and instruction on the tactical, criminal and civil liabilities invovled in the shooting of a person is priceless. |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 6:23:18 PM EDT
[#13]
It shows you the trigger control and training needed to shoot a double action revovler accurately, or for that matter a pistol. I don't know how you could miss with a shotgun, I think the recoil threw her off. The Ar-15 combination of low recoil and red dot did the job. I bet with a stock Ak she would have had a wider shot pattern because of the aks recoil. |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 6:28:01 PM EDT
[#14]
The shotgun hurt her so much because it was almost off her shoulder, plus her head was completely off the stock, when she fired it. Of course it's going to kick like a Missouri mule. However, give a shotgun to someone who's had a bit of instruction and the carnage will increase exponentially. Still, there's no denying that ARs are pussycats compared to most other firearms. |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 6:28:01 PM EDT
[#15]
I agree with your pointabout the pistol for self defense. Question: will my Aimpoint shoot low at close range becuase of the height over the bore? |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 6:30:34 PM EDT
[#16]
It sure will. |
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Posted: 6/29/2005 6:46:55 PM EDT
[#17]
I' ll have to remember to aim a few inches high. 
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Posted: 6/29/2005 7:20:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Remembering wont do it, you'll have to actually practice doing it. You'll be surprised how low the bullet will impact. |
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Posted: 6/30/2005 8:48:54 AM EDT
[#19]
Military training IS an exception . ".....nor are they that powerful. " Now that baffles me ...but I baffle easy  . Edited to add sounds like you could take a full body shot from Squatsadog
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Posted: 7/8/2005 12:08:59 PM EDT
[#20]
That's a great post. It would be great if every gunshop in the country would print it and post it on the counter. Probably piss off the recliner commando types though. |
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Posted: 7/8/2005 12:34:57 PM EDT
[#21]
This just goes to prove that a longarm, particularly a longarm with a 1X optic, is easy to hit with, particularly for someone with minimal training.
Of course it helped that it was something low recoil. Substitue the AR for a AK or a Garand (!) with a dot and the results would be different, but I'd be willing to bet that the rifle would still beat both pistol and shotgun for COM hits. Good post! |
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Posted: 7/8/2005 5:13:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Very cool info thanks for the "guns of truth".
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Posted: 7/9/2005 6:17:10 AM EDT
[#23]
Great post. Tagged for future reference.
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Posted: 7/9/2005 1:19:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Can she stick the AR in Her purse?
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Posted: 7/14/2005 8:11:42 PM EDT
[#25]
25 feet is way too far for home defence. Try to cut it in half.
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Posted: 7/14/2005 9:08:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Of course, most people would shoot a rifle more accurately than a handgun, I would think, especially newer shooters. The only problem I see with the ar first logic is, that most shooters that buy a defense gun and put it away, need an firearm operating system that requires no thinking. The revolver is about the simplest point and shoot weapon there is, short of a single shot, .410 shotgun, especially if the gun is already loaded, even though shooting one accurately, especially at any distance can be a challenge. The ar, doesn't take much thought either I suppose, to slap in a mag and pull back the charging handle, but it will take a bit of practice, that a lot of people don't want to do.
We could talk about cost too, as a lot of people that I see in this position in gunshops, don't want to spend much more than $400. You're on to something here, but most new gun people just aren't going to listen. |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 12:13:30 AM EDT
[#27]
Good post. Interesting topic Fortuantly for myself at this point inlife IM not married like you suckers hing
my 2cents, Jeremy |
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Posted: 7/20/2005 3:56:36 AM EDT
[#28]
I don't think an AR or a shotgun are good choices for a woman. The shotgun has heavy recoil, and the AR is expensive and requires maintainence. I think the revolver is the best choice. Let her train with it for an hour, and she'll be good.
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Posted: 7/20/2005 8:48:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Bump. Just cause this is one of the bet threads in a long while.
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Posted: 7/22/2005 10:24:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Looking at the video's, I think the shotgun was not properly held by the shooter. As someone else noted, she is holding it almost off her shoulder and not braced by a cheek weld. For that matter it looked like she was keeping her cheek as far away as possible. If I fired my 870 like that, I would be hurting too. I do not think this test gives a correct picture of the shotgun as a home defense weapon. Even minimal instruction would correct the mistakes she shows in shouldering the shotgun. I have let a number of first time shooters try an 870 (after starting off with a .22 for basics) and the very first thing I impress on them is to press the butt into your shoulder with the shotgun, something the girl in the video is not doing.
edited to add, Also I am surprised she got any pellets on paper at all. With her head cocked so far over, she might as well have been shooting from the hip! That front bead is there for a reason. |
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Posted: 7/22/2005 8:13:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Great thread.....
I am personally most comfortable with my CCW (G22) as a primary home defense weapon...but this is coming from some one that shoots maybe 1000 rounds a week. I like the mobility of a handgun...and the simplicity of a no safety, DA semi-auto with a high cap mag. That being said, I am a big fan of beginners starting out with a revolver...for some of the same reasons. No safety to confuse things, specifically in the heat of battle when adrenaline is taking over....less thinking, more responding. I like a .357Mag for the simple ability to practice with .38's, and then shoot enough .357 to get comfortable and accurate with it. All that being said.....if I had to make a recommendation to a newbie, one that probably would take to shooting....I would point them toward a 12 gauge pump gun with buck shot loads. Easy to opperate....aim is less of a factor...and knock down power at CQB range is unchallenged. To be honest though...I seriously feel that anyone who is willing to load a firearm with the intent to deploy it in self defense, ought to train a lot....as in very very often, for the duration of their intent to use a firearm in self defense. Shooting it enough to be familiar with it is fine, if you want to remember how to shoot under normal circumstances. Under duress (like in the middle of the night and you hear adult voices coming from your childs room down the hall)....thinking is not even an option...all you will do is react.....react however you have been conditioned to respond. I would strongly recommend training, this site, other 2A sites, and invite them to shoot at any of the local ranges....often. We have a community....new members in it should be welcomed. being part of what we do is how someone gets proficient with a weapon (assuming no LE or Mil experience) For the newbie trying to simply defend themself.....shotgun....then (and/or) revolver.....eventually when sufficiently skilled and trained, a decent DA semi auto. As far as using an AR for home defense.....under typical circumstances, I consider my sidearm a tool which is used to get me to my long guns. If I am in a situation where I 'need' my M4, I can get to it.....short of a major SHTF scenerio, I cant envision many circumstances where I couldnt defend my simple little hallway with 15 rounds of .40S&W Hope I dont find out either way.
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Posted: 7/22/2005 9:11:30 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm curious how well she would have handled a semi auto. My lady friend chose a CZ 75B after trying many firearms, but we never did try something like this. Very cool. When I finally get my 9mm AR, I'm thinking of replacing the 870 in bedroom with that and it makes me feel better about it.
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Posted: 7/24/2005 12:03:50 PM EDT
[#33]
GREAT POSTS!
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Posted: 7/27/2005 7:35:52 PM EDT
[#34]
great post
i personally feel that a pistol caliber carbine w/ red dot would be a good way to steer a young (non-gun people) couple. muzzle blast indoors w/ out ear protection is a lot easier, cheaper fire arm and practice ammo. as much as i like aim points and eo techs, there are cheaper red dot sights that will do ok as a stash under the bed, etc. type weapon. |
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Posted: 7/27/2005 8:55:37 PM EDT
[#35]
+1 and or the mossberg .410 bore HOME SECURITY Pump |
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