Looking for something like a PVS14, but i can only afford gen 2 right now. I was turned on to the Armasight NYX14 by someone, and they say its very good for gen2+ and its only 2k. I picked up an ATPIAL-C with plans on getting NV, so i want something that will easily pick up that IR laser. Am I better off saving another grand for Gen 3? or maybe try to find a used gen 3 for around 2k? thanks!

Either what Eric said for a new unit that you can trust or do what most people do and pick up a used gen III off the equipment exchange :)

Contact user "rbhoover" (owner of nightlong industries) and see what he can do for you.  For $2000 you can easily get into gen3 on the EE.  With that kind of money don't settle for gen 2.  I bought a set of gen3s in December, another AR15 member near me bought a gen2+ around the same time.  He was happy with his gen2 scope until he looked through my gen3.   The following week he sold his gen2 and got some gen3 himself.

nightvision2go.com

Hopefully he still has some omni VII's left.  They were 2300.

I just got done building a pvs7 with a very crisp gen 3 omni tube, virtually no blems, for 1270. It is also a rewarding experience to build your own. If interested I can link you to the thread that shows you how to build, only real trick is getting it collimated correctly which is actually a piece of cake.

The used market is always a option. I've seen several nice PVS14's sell for under that recently. Obviously there are risks with building or buying used, but you can minimize that by being smart. First know what you're buying, if you don't know ask here and someone will help. Second ask for a inspection period. I haven't seen TNVC's new Gen 2+ stuff but I'm a fan of the company, gen 2+ is almost as good as gen 3 I hear but haven't tried it yet. Going that ruit you get a warranty. Weigh your options and pick which is best for you. My .02

If you need a warranty, buy new.

If you don't, check the EE and buy from someone who has established feedback. There is always a chance that a new or used tube may die, but its about the same as having your car die - sometimes it happens, but it generally doesn't if you take care of it.

Gen 2+ is totally usable, but your budget is in gen 3 used territory, and i would definately go gen 3, over gen 2+, unless you're walking into a crazy deal on a gen 2+ unit.

How does a warranty normally work in a new set up? TNVC for example? If a tube fails and I haven't done anything to cause the failure is it replaced under wrranty?

Even if it dies you can replace the psu or buy another tube and you would still be ahead

This is an important consideration which is often overlooked by folks with minimal experience.

Yup, give rich a call. He has some decent gen 3 stuff for under 2k. I talked with him and I am very happy with him. I have not purchased yet as he convinced me to save a bit more for one of his Omni VII's

$2000 is way too much for a gen2.

FWIW I think a tube failing is a rare event. From what I understand,if a tube is to fail, it will most likely occur within the first few ours of use...so a proven used tube is actually less likely to fail than a brand new tube.  One must also consider damage to the field of view from improper use but this can be assessd fairly easily.  Ultimately, it is the individual buyers call on whether the peace of mind in  a warranty is worth $1200-$1500.

I'll preface this by saying it's not meant to be confrontational, since words sometimes can come off that way.

Actually what I said is that a tube failing is not common.  Surely used tubes do fail but I think the buyer should consider not just the possibility of failure but also the likelihood of failure, so a proper risk assessment can be made. If someone buys a used pvs14 off the EE for $1500, and the tube fails, the housing is still worth $550-$600, and someone like me would pay them $200 for the dead tube (with a good module in it) so they are really out $700. Certainly not several thousand. Again, the buyer has to determine if the $1200 warrantee is worth it, or if they could stomach the loss of $700-$800.

Notice I'm not saying don't buy a new warranted device, what I am saying is the buyer should have as much info as possible so they can make a decision that best fits their needs.

Warranty is great if you don't mind waiting a couple months for a replacement.

My advice? For 2000 don't waste your money on anything Gen2 unless whatever it is you are getting has an spotless Photonis XR5 tube inside...  and even then, I would still think about it.

A 1600-2000 bucks PVS-14/Pitbull housing from the EE with any tube inside ranging from Omni IV to Omni VII will perform great and knock the socks off anything Gen2...

G.

It is not common for tubes to die, but they can fail, as it happened to me. AEO will fix your tube for 545 bucks and give you 1 year of warranty on the repotted tube. So, lets see, why pay 4000 for a new unit with warranty, when I can pay, say 1500, and if the tube dies then I can pay another 545 bucks to have it fixed (and warranted), or shop around for another tube and sell the old one... either way you look at it... you can always come way ahead of the warranty if you're willing to DIY...

Again, the warranty is if you don't want to deal with anything and are willing to wait; paying for a warranty is effectively paying for someone else to take care any potential problems for you...

G.

G your tube is a perfect example of a NOS and unproven tube failing. Something about the psu being prone to failure in the early period of time, but once it's been going it should go a long time.

For me, spending more than $1k on a tube of unknown history, pedigree, and without a warranty from a company that has been in the business for a while and is likely to still be there to honor it in the future, is a non starter.  Was the tube a surplus russian tube sitting in a warehouse for 20 years? I'm not ready to light $1000+ on fire.  

NVGs are not cheap and differentiating quality is very hard for non experts to do.   If you go cheap, you are gambling.  Will you win?  Or will you be like many others, asking how to get their messed up gear working or how to get it to be compatible with other things they've bought on the cheap?  

For me, TNVC gets the nod most every time.  I've not been disappointed with the results.   All of my gear integrates together and does exactly what I told them I needed it to do. There are other good folks out there to buy from, but will they be there in 2 years, more?  I'm not willing to bet on an individual at these price points.

Agreed, and even after the repot, I've still come way ahead of buying a brand new PVS-7D... mine is effectively brand new (I purchased every component new and pulled and kept the wrapped/plastic case for every component, including tube)

G.

Gen 2 and Gen 3 are misnomers to a certain extent. I'd take a TNVC Gen 2 SHP over a used Omni III Gen 3 any day. Most people new to NV should avoid buying used unless the history is clear and they've done their research. Saving a few hundred dollars on something like this can really come back to bite you in the ass.

From someone who has played with hundreds of tubes I will comment. I have lost a few tubes and it is heartbreaking to a new guy. Lost several thousands over the years from either ignorance of what I was buying or just bad luck. Buying used equipment is fun for me and I enjoy mostly buying broken scopes and either fixing them or salvaging the parts. This forum is a great resource I never had while I was learning what to buy and more important what not to buy.

Used is fun and rewarding but also gambling. I win more than I lose but there was a time when I knew little and blindly hoped for the best. Are you getting milspec optics ? How old is the tube and what is the history ? Is it a stolen milspec tube ? Is there hidden damage inside from someone building it who did not know what they were doing ? These are real questions you need to be aware of. I could not care less usually because I can fix anything broken (except a blown tube) and I am very careful what I buy.

The Supergen tubes are very good. Gen 2 is US terminology for Multi-Alkali photocathode. The photocathode is the magic stuff that will amplify light. The US abandoned research and development on this type of photocathode MANY years ago in favor of what we call Gen 3 or a GaAs photocathode. The European Photonis tube maker never stopped advancing Gen 2 photocathodes and they could easily make Gen 3 tubes using GaAs photocathodes if they wanted. They have advanced the gen 2 photocathode to the point of it being on par with some of our latest gen 3 tubes and outperforming earlier Gen 3 tubes.

Supergen tubes are 54 to 64 lp/mm and S/N is generally in the low to mid 20's with some well exceeding that. The lifespan or these tubes is equal to Gen 3 at 10 to 15000 hours. Old US Gen 2 were around 5000 hours. To call Supergen tubes Gen 2 is really a disservice to them. They are labeled Gen 2 by us but other nations simply see it as another type of photocathode to amplify light and base judgement on specs. Photonis makes some really nice tubes that will destroy Gen 3 Omni III and below. Supergen tubes are easily on par with Omni IV and higher tubes depending on specs.

I just wanted you to understand the history of these tubes so you understand what it is you are buying. Personally, I would build my own scope but I know how and have all the tools. I take the risk if something happens. Many pitfalls doing this if you don't know what you are doing. A milspec PVS-14 housing with a new warranted Supergen tube should be seriously considered in your price range. The tube is no joke and can hold its own against many Gen 3 tubes.

You got a warranty, everything is new and built by a pro. If it breaks it is their problem and not yours. Many of the members here think everyone loves to build and tinker with night vision (I am guilty as well). Most people just want a worry free scope to go out and use. That is what you get buying new with a warranty. TNVC are top notch folks that know what they are doing and stand behind what they sell. My .02

Tube technology is complicated. The Gen 1, 2 or 3 terms get tossed around loosely. We have 3 stage Gen 1 tubes that have more gain than Gen 3 for example. The term Gen 2 is even more complicated. Gen 3 can be stellar or not much more advanced then early us Gen 2. Supergen or SHP tubes are Gen 2 in name only and not in performance. I wanted you to understand the technology so you can make a informed choice.

One of the best tube lesson's I've had in a while, thanks Dino

I agree you can get some really good deals on EE for 2K if you are patient I just pick up a pvs 14 with an Omni 7 tube in it for 2k and a Omni 7 tube that had been opened and installed to be tested and these are absolutely great tubes. I paid 1200.for the Omni 7 tube. I also bought a unit with a L3 Infinity filmless autogated tube which is just unbelievable for 1800.00. I have been playing with NVGs since the PVS 5 were the best and unless you do something on purpose to break a nvg it is very very had to do so.

When I was in the 1st Ranger batt we dropped them and put them through hell and they were just like a timex and kept ticking. Now I have broke the housing before and just replaced the housing using the same tube and kept going. I will admit I do baby my nvgs a lot better now. But hey I'm older and not jumping, climbing and all that fun stuff any more. So if It were me I'd be patient and keep an open eye out on the EE and buy a good set of gen 3 for 2k instead of spending 2k on a gen 2 unit. As matter of fact with what's available out there today there is no way I'd spend 2k on Gen 2 nvgs.

If you are dead set on new save your money and buy gen three. But there are some really really great deals on some great Gen 3 nvgs out there for 2k. I myself knock on wood have never had a tube go bad. I mean think about. How many old gen 2 tubes are still out there floating around from the 80s that are still working and working good. I just looked through an old pvs5 unit that a guy had and they were great and he said he's had them for ever

Just my .02

 
That's a really good overview of the technology Dino - :) Very nice.


Indeed, if the resolution is around 58 lp/mm and S/N over 19, the tubes are directly comparable to Gen3 - And some with higher specs can certainly equal the current best available technology also - As long as the resolution and S/N of a Gen2 tube are known, you can get a pretty good idea of where it fits with respect to current technology regardless of whether it's a multi-alkali or GaAs photocathode -


Interestly, new Gen2 technology seems to be looking to alter the spectral response of the photocathode also, allowing better contrast, which itself is an interesting idea. So the idea to make Gen2 PVS-14's is an incredibly good idea - Competitive pricing with competitive performance :) I guess the european technology is fast catching up on Gen3's lead.


Still though, $2000 for a complete unit? I am somewhat stunned that this has finally become possible and I didn't know Vic was working on such a project - It's really good to see a mid-way solution coming out now - Old and second-hand Gen3 is a good alternative in that price range, but I think people forget that the more use a Gen3 has, the more it's performance deteriorates and it's very possible to end up with a once-high-performing Gen3 tube that performs well under the level of a mid-range performance Gen2 SHP in new condition - And Gen2 tubes are a lot hardier too - and take abuse quite well compared to Gen3.


It's a great idea though - and for people on a limited budget is really offering some new value.


David

what ever to each their own. My own is that a gen two tube does not compare to the newer gen 3 tubes as said I've been using these for 20 + years and know a thing or two about these and I am not just speaking blindly, they compare to some of the older gen 3 tubes but in no way the newer tubes and this is all will say about this matter. I am not busting on TNVC and the man of knowledge either I have bought new units from him in the past also.Good man.

I was not a believer either. No way some crappy Euro Gen 2 could beat the mighty Gen 3 or even come close to it ! I felt that way for years. But I had a good friend convince me otherwise and let me tell you it took him YEARS. He was the only guy I knew with milspec housings and acess to both modern high performing US Gen 3 and a modern high performing Photonis Gen 2 plus. These pics were taken in a VERY remote location.

You tell me which pic is better because they look darn near the same to me and I have looked through hundreds of tubes (no idea of the exact number as I lost count years ago) Pics below. Photonis Gen 2+ vs Modern US Gen 3. Better yet you guys tell me which tube is which. Both tubes are 64 lp/mm so resolution is equal in these tubes. No secret I am a TNVC fan. If anything comes out of this thread I hope people understand how good these tubes can be regardless of who he buys his scope from. I don't make a dime either way.

Do you own any Gen2 SHP?

G.

 
Hmmm... Firemedic, I think you may be misunderstanding the technology somewhat - Given two tubes of any manufacture ( Filmless, thin-filmed, standar filmed, 2+1, 3+1, Gen2, Gen3, Digital, Gen1 Multistage etc ) if you have equivalent resolution and signal-to-noise ratio, then the performance will be roughly the same and if the brightness is set the same on both tubes, you'd be hard-pressed to spot the difference between them under any lighting conditions.


I am guessing you've possibly never seen something like a high-end aviation-grade XR5 tube ( top-spec Gen2 ) because they are made to a higher minimum spec than *any* published US Milspec tube. These compare strongly to the latest US made Gen3 and in many circumstances, will easily outperform the best of US components. There are circumstances where a US tube will perform better and circumstances where an XR5 will perform better, and because of this, without a specific operating environment, the end result is that both are about equal.


This is so much so that if comparing a Gen2 with 72lp/mm and 29 s/n to a Gen3 with 64lp/mm and 25 s/n ? You'll see a clear improvement in the Gen2 tube over and above the Gen3 tube, yet both were from the same era ( that's a practical example I used too ) .


Gen2 is often misunderstood as are the characteristics of the photocathode. There's a huge performance difference between modern high-performance Gen2 tubes and the older Gen2+ standard found in AN/PVS-5's and the like that you probably used quite extensively in your own past - Also, even within current high-end Gen2's there's a similar performance range to the range across current Gen3.


Here's a low-light ( NL5 ) image under partly obscured starlight in a low-albedo environment - About as tough as it gets for NV use -  It's a panoramic composite of three NV technologies. One is a Milspec MX10160A/AVS-6 aviation grade around Omni IV but performing around the Omni V level. The other is equivalent to US Gen3 Omni VII and has very high S/N ( around 26 to 27 ) and a Gen2 high-end XR5 tube - ( Around 29 S/N ) - You'll notice that both the Gen2 and Omni VII MX11769 outperform the old aviation-standard MX10160A, however there's not much in it between the XR5 and the Gen3.





There are ways to tell the Gen3 image from the Gen2 image, but it's not easy.  Suffice to say they are both competent tubes.


The interesting thing is that such Gen2 supertubes were previously very expensive, costing significantly more than most Gen3's... Add to this a very flat US Gen3 market where tubes are not graded on performance, so a high performer costs around the same as a low performer and even blemished and damaged tubes command a high price.


Gen2 tubes however are graded and priced on performance, so although lower-spec tubes were always available, I guess it's interesting that their presence has created an entire market out of nothing - slowly carving out a niche in the sub-$2000 range which was previously only occupied by early US made Gen2's around the $1000 to $1500 mark.


Gen2 just means alkali metal photoconductor while Gen3 means GaAs semiconductor photocathode. Outside of this, and the relative characteristics of each, there's not a lot of practical difference between the two -


Regards

David

David,
The difference is that the Omni VII tube in your picture can go for as low as 700-900 bucks with a few minor blemishes on eBay and the XR5 is 4000 dollars, if..., IF you can get your hands on one. Based on a 2000 budget, OP will be hard pressed (if not impossible) to find an XR5 for under 2000 dollars so your point of comparing an XR5 vs. Omni VII, VIII or XXII is moot. The OP stated very clearly that he wanted to get the best for under 2k, and no Gen2 for under 2k is going to touch a good used Gen3 EE deal. See TNVC post with an in-depth generation comparisons for that.. SHP is good, but Gen3 where its at. No reason to own Gen2/Multialkali when Gen3/GaAs is available for much less with MUCH better average performance.

And once again, maybe I wasn't clear on my first post on this thread: I stated that: "If for under 2k you can find a Gen2 scope with an ... guess what!?... XR5 inside, then go for it... if not, then simply get a used Gen3. You proved exactly what I was saying. No Gen2 SHP will be at the XR5 level at a bargain price, unless its broken; and then we have Valleyrat1 for repotting it, and for everything else, there is Gen3. Accept no substitutes for under 2k if you live in the CONUS.

G.

 
Hi G,


All good points and you are correct, but I was talking about XR5 to point out that there's not a lot of difference at the top end of town - that said, a tube with S/N over 21 is still good and from about 17 to 21 is acceptable, even in Gen3. Likewise, it's the same numbers for Gen2...


The point is that even at around $3000, you're not assured of a tube that's S/N > 21 in Gen3... I know Vic weeds them out where he can, but from time to time, it does happen -


So at $2000 do I think a Gen2 system will compete directly with a modern Gen3? No... Because despite what I said, most current Gen3's will have S/N around 25:1 or higher, which is pretty fantastic. But if you still have a Gen2 coming in close at under $2K or thereabouts, especially if it has gain control, and the S/N is reasonable - close to 20s/n, that's a pretty good deal IMO - especially new - Just a few years ago, there was nothing in that space.


And so yeah, I'd still go the extra thousand, but I've also answered emails and PMs from many people who just can't make the extra, and something like a D300 was the only option. The D300 was a great low-cost monocular, but it was S/N around 10, and resolution around 32. Modern SHP tubes are far above that, and they're made by the same method as XR5's - and may well be tubes that would be XR5 but for a something not quite perfect in the specs.


Now as for under $1000 :) Well, that's where the specials live and if you're willing to learn a little about the technology, take a risk and figure out how to assembly it yourself? You're going to have a great system at a bargain price and I'd definitely say go Gen3 then - but that does take knowledge and experience - and a lot of people such as police, first responders, security, journalists etc, need something off-the-shelf and operational.... Secondhand in the EE? Sure, that's usually not too bad for bargains either... Either way you're probably going to come in above S/N of 18 in most cases... Unless you get a real turd of a deal...


But... Hmmm.  Have a look at the specs I published a few years back - http://aunv.blackice.com.au/cgi-bin/nightvision/forum?index=discussions&story=omni


Look at the SHD-3 Tubes ( These are the lower of super second Gen tubes that Photonis sell )




S/N Minimum of 20 and 21?


Suddenly it doesn't matter that they aren't XR5's... I have no idea of what the actual tubes in use in these systems are, but if they are SuperGen, They're probably similar to that at least... And suddenly, they are right smack in the middle of lower Gen3 territory in the "Good" section...


And a complete system too, just just a tube. Warranty and no risk...


Maybe I'm not quite jaded enough by all I've seen in the NV industry, but when I hear of that kind of a deal, a system, probably with S/N > 20 and under $2000? Yeah, that sounds like something pretty reasonable for the price to me, and it didn't exist a few months ago, even a few years ago.


Regards

David.

I got to try the GEN 2 plus out at Noctober. I couldn't see the difference between the GEN 2 plus and GEN 3. I will say I don't have lots of time using night vision. But the GEN 2 looked great to me.

I'll be the first to say I don't care what you call a given tube, as long as it looks good.  Gen2, gen2+, shp, Super gen2, gen 3, etc.  They are all just a label.  What matters is the view and the expected lifespan.  If TNVC puts out a pvs-14 style monocular that gets a 20+ S/N and mid 50's+ lp/mm for $2000, you can call it whatever you want and it's a good deal.

In general, you get what you pay for, and $1,300 gen2 options are not going to rival $3,000+ gen3 options in tough conditions.  Maybe in a full moon setting they will be similar enough, but come low light situations there is a difference.  If you are getting the best Gen2+ options made today, it will be similar, but you won't be paying ATN prices for them either.  I can't wait to see what TNVC puts out on their budget site.  I'm all for it.  A warranty and a known performing tube sound great.  I enjoy tinkering, fixing, and bettering a second hand unit, but there is a lot to say about buying something off the shelf that is backed by a good company knowing it's set to work from day one.  Right now there seems to be a big split between low grade gen2 night vision (say the ATN's) and high grade Milspec gen3.  Bringing a fully compatible high performing gen2+ into the market new for $2000 would be a great middle point for someone looking to buy new who doesn't want to just full in to a $3,000+ pvs-14.

If it were me on a $2,000 budget, I would either buy used on the EE or if I didn't need it right now, I'd wait for TNVC to open their budget line.  $2,000 should get you into a nice used pvs-14 with a good tube, potentially still in warranty.

On a side note, do the Photonis Supergen systems handle recoil better than the gen3 we are used to?

Yes I do. The only tubes I won't own are Russian.

When I try to sign up, it says I'm already signed up, despite trying all of my emails that I'm 100% certain I didn't sign up with.

 

Would you mind posting a comparison between one of your best Gen3 tubes vs. your best Gen2 SHP?

G.

Soon as I get a housing to put it in ! I just asked a friend to mail me a new body housing kit to test. I don't know the specs on this Photonis supergen so it will be a fair battle. It will go up against a full milspec ITT Omni VII (best tube I own). I expect the Omni VII to win but let us see how close it is. Will take a couple days to get the housing. I also have a L3 milspec Omni VI I will toss in the mix because it is also a high spec tube. I really don't know what to expect as I have never used this Photonis tube and it is brand new.

I just ended up placing an order with Nightlong industries for the "ultra". for $2900 WITH a rhino II mount and a warranty it seems like a good deal.

This has been a very informative thread.
Now it's a waiting game

So you're saying the Gen2+ we're waiting on you guys to release may be $2000 or less

Sorry, I was off by around 200 dollars...

https://tnvc.com/shop/pvs-14-night-enforcer-gen3-pinnacle-night-vision-monocular/

G.

Nice!

+1 Had this same issue.

Can you tell us what tubes will be in these?  Will ya'll also be offering scopes or clip-ons?

I was about to buy a M845 gen2+ from ya'll in January only to find that ya'll had discontinued them..

I was in a similar situation to the OP.  Wanted a semi affordable way to get into NV.  Couldn't bring myself to pay the ~3k for a new warrantied unit.  So i picked up a Photonis Supergen from Itchy on the EE and grabbed a pvs 14 kit from NV2go.  I was blown away by the photonis tube and am very happy with the purchase for the amount of money invested.  But now of course i want more.. its a slippery slope!