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Posted: 12/17/2014 6:33:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Walking around you absolutely need max WFOV as it does not have near the great FOV of a PVS-14.
My 640 core looks to be 1X on the 1X setting? The controls really are super ergonomic when helmet mounted upside down, the boot-up screen is upside down but beside that not a problem. Is yours a 320 or 640 core? |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 6:44:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Walking around you absolutely need max WFOV as it does not have near the great FOV of a PVS-14. My 640 core looks to be 1X on the 1X setting? The controls really are super ergonomic when helmet mounted upside down, the boot-up screen is upside down but beside that not a problem. Is yours a 320 or 640 core? It's definitely 640 based on the PN referenced to the user manual. If I look at a clock on the wall at 1x it is considerably smaller than true 1x. I'll try to get a pic of this. Am I missing an adjustment? |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 6:58:22 PM EDT
[#3]
I think it has to do with the distance of your eye from the microbolometer.
Still you are looking at the raw unmagnified microbolometer and that takes some getting used to, it is the same setup on my FLIR thermal clip-on scopes if you look directly into the microbolometer without a optic day scope and the same on my M-18 640 Recon. The M-18 does provide a stronger long distance view with its 35mm lens, but the M-24 has a wider FOV with it's 19mm lens. I like them both and use them for different purposes. I can see everything that moves for 3/4+ mile on 1X and zoom in at will with my setup. Putting a Wilcox Amber filter on the ocular lens helps with the brightness and does not detract from the view, making it easier on the eyes for long hours of helmet mounted viewing, I highly recommend using one for extended useage. https://tnvc.com/shop/wilcox-amber-filter/ Did you get a video out cord with yours? |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:00:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Did FLIR make the M24 before TAU2? If so, he's running a larger pitch sensor which would also increase FOV on the same lens versus the 17 micron TAU2 core.
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:03:00 PM EDT
[#5]
There is a bright spot in the field of view, like a bad pixel. It stays in the same spot on the image through different magnifications. Hmm...
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:07:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did FLIR make the M24 before TAU2? If so, he's running a larger pitch sensor which would also increase FOV on the same lens versus the 17 micron TAU2 core. Yup, he most likely has a 25 micron microbolometer TAU2 core or an older 35 micron TAU1 core, whilst mine as the 17 micron TAU 2.7 core, so quit a bit different. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:07:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a bright spot in the field of view, like a bad pixel. It stays in the same spot on the image through different magnifications. Hmm... That is a dead pixel... |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:20:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is a dead pixel... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is a bright spot in the field of view, like a bad pixel. It stays in the same spot on the image through different magnifications. Hmm... That is a dead pixel... Yeah, what I figured. Nothing in the add about a dead pixel. Before I request the return/ refund, is there anything flir would do with it? |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:27:42 PM EDT
[#9]
No, that is normal under hard use, probably got dropped sometime and that is the result, also some pixels may die after long term usage, it is natural.
A heavily used unit may have three or four of them, not that much of a problem as it is just a minor distraction. The M-24 is a mil-spec hardened core through and can take allot more abuse than a civilian core before this occurs. My FLIR T-50 weapon scope has thousands of hours of operation on it and numerous falls in the field and drops onto concrete/asphalt off the back of a pickup truck bed and still going strong with no bad pixels, the housing is getting pretty beat up though..... |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:42:27 PM EDT
[#10]
That's the thing it was supposed to be lightly used, externally it does not appear to have suffered any damage. Hmm...
Am I expecting too much? Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, that is normal under hard use, probably got dropped sometime and that is the result, also some pixels may die after long term usage, it is natural. A heavily used unit may have three or four of them, not that much of a problem as it is just a minor distraction. The M-24 is a mil-spec hardened core through and can take allot more abuse than a civilian core before this occurs. My FLIR T-50 weapon scope has thousands of hours of operation on it and numerous falls in the field and drops onto concrete/asphalt off the back of a pickup truck bed and still going strong with no bad pixels, the housing is getting pretty beat up though..... |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:49:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Where is the dead pixel located in your FOV, if it is right in the middle dead center it might be some cause for concern?
Elsewhere it should not be that much of a distraction, I have used thermals with 4-5 dead pixels and did not detract from detecting anything. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:57:48 PM EDT
[#12]
It's in the middle more or less, it moves to the edge in 2x and is out of the view in 4x.
I was not expecting to encounter an issue like this given the description. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:06:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Does this bad pixel go away when you do a manual calibration?
Just trying to figure out if it's a bad pixel or dead pixel on the imaging core vs a dead pixel on the output display. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:09:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does this bad pixel go away when you do a manual calibration? Just trying to figure out if it's a bad pixel or dead pixel on the imaging core vs a dead pixel on the output display. It moves when shifting through the various magnifications so I am left to believe it is the core. I'll try manual calibration and see. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:17:27 PM EDT
[#15]
If it goes away after calibration, it's a "bad" pixel on the imaging core. Once calibrated to the others that pixel should add to the rest of the image and respond to the scene. There could be some software magic that simply allows for the nearest pixel to be copied over to the bad one so that it's not distracting.
The fact that it seems to move as you change digital magnification could mean that it's on the core. Don't panic, most thermal imaging cores have some dead or bad pixels when they are manufactured. If it's still there and looks the same after calibration, it could be a bad pixel on the LCD screen, but I don't know of any that would move like that when changing magnification. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:20:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it goes away after calibration, it's a "bad" pixel on the imaging core. Once calibrated to the others that pixel should add to the rest of the image and respond to the scene. There could be some software magic that simply allows for the nearest pixel to be copied over to the bad one so that it's not distracting. The fact that it seems to move as you change digital magnification could mean that it's on the core. Don't panic, most thermal imaging cores have some dead or bad pixels when they are manufactured. If it's still there and looks the same after calibration, it could be a bad pixel on the LCD screen, but I don't know of any that would move like that when changing magnification. Thank you for your input. Yes it does change when I calibrate it, sometimes it goes away and sometimes it dims or gets brighter especially depending on the contrast of the scene. Flat scenes seem to mask it while a scene with one of my kids in it the spot gets bright. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:25:42 PM EDT
[#17]
It's not a dead pixel then. It's what they call a "Bad" pixel. It will respond, but it's outside of the normal boundaries of the rest of the detector.
Check out the section from this FLIR Presentation. Scroll down to the "Mapping" section and below, it will help explain the many challenges involved with different pixels behaving differently on a focal planar array. http://www.cb.uu.se/~ewert/infrared.pdf Can you take a photo of the pixel before and after calibration? |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:30:17 PM EDT
[#18]
You know I had the exact same issue with my FLIR m24 640 as well. Luckily mine was still under warantee (barely, I had 1 month of warantee left) when I discovered the issue. I sent it in and they replaced the core as a result. That would have been very costly if I had to pay out of pocket. My spot was towards the edge of the display so it wasn't too much of an annoyance, but I wanted it taken care of since it was covered by the warantee. I can imagine if the bad pixel was in. The middle it would have been very distracting and annoying especially given as high of a dollar item as these units are. I expect pretty much a flawless product when I am dropping $5k+
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:34:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Here's another paper that shows how they can improve the image with various non uniformity correction methods (Calibration)
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/AE_Mudau/publication/224242097_Non-uniformity_correction_and_bad_pixel_replacement_on_LWIR_and_MWIR_images/links/0912f50a327b6696be000000 http://www.sbir.com/PDFs/MIRAGE-Publications/LWIR%20NUC%20Using%20an%20Uncooled%20Microbolometer%20Camera.pdf http://www.enggjournals.com/ijet/docs/IJET13-05-02-325.pdf |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:35:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not a dead pixel then. It's what they call a "Bad" pixel. It will respond, but it's outside of the normal boundaries of the rest of the detector. Check out the section from this FLIR Presentation. Scroll down to the "Mapping" section and below, it will help explain the many challenges involved with different pixels behaving differently on a focal planar array. http://www.cb.uu.se/~ewert/infrared.pdf Can you take a photo of the pixel before and after calibration? I will get some up tonight. Is there an issue posting views through it being that it's ITAR controlled? Silly question maybe. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:40:09 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't think its an issue posting pictures through your m24. I have even posted videos from my FLIR HS-307 on YouTube..... At least I hope it's not illegal.
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:43:10 PM EDT
[#22]
No, I post photos and video of all my military FLIR gear all the time.
Just do NOT post the instruction manual for it.... |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 9:03:42 PM EDT
[#23]
My older 320 M24 is a little less than unity mag, maybe 0.9x or so.
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Posted: 12/17/2014 9:19:45 PM EDT
[#24]
To tell the truth, I spoke to FLIR GS employee about incorporating the excellent 0.5X setting into the M-18, M-24 and the T-75 last week.
T-75 is a no go due to the large 100mm lens and collumination issues, but future M-24s/M-18s could possibly incorporate the super WFOV that the T-70 has, that would be very nice and very helpful..... 
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Posted: 12/17/2014 9:21:56 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My older 320 M24 is a little less than unity mag, maybe 0.9x or so. This one is .5 or so. Im comparing to my experience with the pvs14, perhaps that is where im off base? Ill put up some pics tonight now that i know i can. Thx fellas for all the input, this nv board is really great. The seller is in touch with me, said its done this since new he never thought anything of it. Ill be calling flir tomorrow and see what they say. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 9:29:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Call FLIR GS in Pittsburgh, they are in the process of moving to Boston so it maybe a little difficult getting someone knowledgeable on the line during the move.
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Posted: 12/17/2014 10:13:45 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This one is .5 or so. Im comparing to my experience with the pvs14, perhaps that is where im off base? Ill put up some pics tonight now that i know i can. Thx fellas for all the input, this nv board is really great. The seller is in touch with me, said its done this since new he never thought anything of it. Ill be calling flir tomorrow and see what they say. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My older 320 M24 is a little less than unity mag, maybe 0.9x or so. This one is .5 or so. Im comparing to my experience with the pvs14, perhaps that is where im off base? Ill put up some pics tonight now that i know i can. Thx fellas for all the input, this nv board is really great. The seller is in touch with me, said its done this since new he never thought anything of it. Ill be calling flir tomorrow and see what they say. Mine is definitely closer to 1.0x than 0.5x "optical", i.e. when not using the 2x or 4x digital mag. The P/N is 57262, and the S/N is 002xx if that helps SkyPup identify the vintage, core, etc. The homebrew green ocular filter provided by Delta4-3 definitely helps IMHO. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 10:35:54 PM EDT
[#28]
One other thing, the lcd screen seems "far away" when viewing, more so than I expected, and certainly further away than the ps24 screen. You can see a lot of black around the screen if that makes sense. Ill put up pics when I get home tonight, but perhaps that explains why things seem half sized at 1x.
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Posted: 12/17/2014 10:41:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To tell the truth, I spoke to FLIR GS employee about incorporating the excellent 0.5X setting into the M-18, M-24 and the T-75 last week. T-75 is a no go due to the large 100mm lens and collumination issues, but future M-24s/M-18s could possibly incorporate the super WFOV that the T-70 has, that would be very nice and very helpful..... Why would that be useful? It doesn't show additional FOV, it just makes the display smaller (using fewer pixels) for magnified optics. I'm not sure what benefit that would have in a monocular? |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 11:09:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One other thing, the lcd screen seems "far away" when viewing, more so than I expected, and certainly further away than the ps24 screen. You can see a lot of black around the screen if that makes sense. Ill put up pics when I get home tonight, but perhaps that explains why things seem half sized at 1x. Yup, that is perfectly normal, that is the way that it is.. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 11:11:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would that be useful? It doesn't show additional FOV, it just makes the display smaller (using fewer pixels) for magnified optics. I'm not sure what benefit that would have in a monocular? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
To tell the truth, I spoke to FLIR GS employee about incorporating the excellent 0.5X setting into the M-18, M-24 and the T-75 last week. T-75 is a no go due to the large 100mm lens and collumination issues, but future M-24s/M-18s could possibly incorporate the super WFOV that the T-70 has, that would be very nice and very helpful..... Why would that be useful? It doesn't show additional FOV, it just makes the display smaller (using fewer pixels) for magnified optics. I'm not sure what benefit that would have in a monocular? Actually, it greatly enlarges the FOV by 2X, which not only is outstanding on a weapon mounted thermal, but would be dynomite on a helmet mounted thermal for better situational awareness as well. At night, with any thermal, WFOV is your friend! 
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Posted: 12/17/2014 11:14:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Grainy compressed photos work better than words.....
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Posted: 12/17/2014 11:17:55 PM EDT
[#33]
FLIR M-18 1X 175 yards to tree:
FLIR M-18 2X 175 yards to tree: 
FLIR M-18 4X 175 yards to tree: 
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Posted: 12/17/2014 11:27:30 PM EDT
[#34]
One other thing, the lcd screen seems "far away" when viewing, more so than I expected, and certainly further away than the ps24 screen. Are you looking through the unit with the shuttered eyepiece or eyecup? If so, take it off and see if that helps. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 11:55:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you looking through the unit with the shuttered eyepiece or eyecup? If so, take it off and see if that helps. Quote HistoryQuoted:
One other thing, the lcd screen seems "far away" when viewing, more so than I expected, and certainly further away than the ps24 screen. Are you looking through the unit with the shuttered eyepiece or eyecup? If so, take it off and see if that helps. No its the original. Im really wondering whats up with the 1x. You will see what I mean when I get the pics up, still at work. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 12:12:32 AM EDT
[#36]
That is perfectly normal, they all look that way.
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Posted: 12/18/2014 12:16:24 AM EDT
[#37]
I think I know what you mean, You feel like your looking at a postage stamp of a display despite the resolution and field of view of the device.
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Posted: 12/18/2014 12:24:44 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is perfectly normal, they all look that way. Then you couldnt walk around with it on in 1x everything would seem farther away (significantly) than it is, unless something weird is going on with mine. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 4:46:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Here are some pics, please excuse the crappy ipad pictures.
#1 - pic showing bright spot during normal use before manual calibration. 
#2 - pic showing approximately the same scene after manual calibration. 
#3 - pic showing similar view a few moments later. 
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Posted: 12/18/2014 8:59:56 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then you couldnt walk around with it on in 1x everything would seem farther away (significantly) than it is, unless something weird is going on with mine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That is perfectly normal, they all look that way. Then you couldnt walk around with it on in 1x everything would seem farther away (significantly) than it is, unless something weird is going on with mine. Works fine with mine. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 10:24:00 AM EDT
[#41]
Yup! That's the problem that mine had as well! Except my spot was in about that location when on 1x so by the time i zoomed to 2x. It was already cropped out of the picture. The only solution is to replace the micro-bolometer sensor.... Not cheap unless you are under warantee still. You either gotta live with it or see if you can get a refund and look for another m24.
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Posted: 12/18/2014 10:31:36 AM EDT
[#42]
Just FYI ther serial number was 00167 on mine. I think I had a pretty early production one of they started at 00001
Maybe this is an issue common to the earlier m24s. I've had a LOT of different thermal monoculars and a lot of them have been FLIR ( I've had basically all of FLIRs monoculars in the past including M18, PS24, PS32, HS-324, 2x HS-307, M24) however the m24 was the only one I have had bolometer pixel issues. It's just strange that you are reporting the same thing with your m24 |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 10:38:40 AM EDT
[#43]
Might have to live with the bad pixel.
Sometimes they can go into the software at the factory and "edit it out" so to speak, using different techniques without having to replace the entire microbolometer. The unity power or 1x issue is interesting. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 11:34:24 AM EDT
[#44]
The view through a M-24 is nothing like the view through a PS-24.
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Posted: 12/18/2014 12:40:57 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm waiting on a call back from a FLIR GS engineer. Service eval would cost $100 on this unit.
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Posted: 12/18/2014 12:48:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Here are some un cropped pics showing the 1x issue. If you look at the regular image compared to the 2x image you can see that 2x is really the true 1x on this unit.
Regular image 
Image through m24 at 1x 
Image through m24 at 2x 
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Posted: 12/18/2014 1:14:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The view through a M-24 is nothing like the view through a PS-24. I think that we can all agree on that. I was just saying that the only thermal device I EVER experienced pixel issues with was my M24 640. And it's strange that he is having the same problem with his m24. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 5:10:40 PM EDT
[#48]
I received a call back from FLIR. First off, so far my dealings with this company have been top notch. I described the parity issue and they confirmed that it is a problem, potentially software related. They reccomended I send it in for evaluation of both the bright pixel issue and the parity issue, which I will be doing.
The seller has also been great to deal with, he did not hesitate to offer a refund but we agreed it would be best to see what flir comes up with and go from there. I really hope it's a simple software fix. I really like this unit, aside from all the aforementioned issues. |
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Posted: 12/18/2014 5:30:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Good deal!
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Posted: 12/18/2014 5:32:21 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I received a call back from FLIR. First off, so far my dealings with this company have been top notch. I described the parity issue and they confirmed that it is a problem, potentially software related. They reccomended I send it in for evaluation of both the bright pixel issue and the parity issue, which I will be doing. The seller has also been great to deal with, he did not hesitate to offer a refund but we agreed it would be best to see what flir comes up with and go from there. I really hope it's a simple software fix. I really like this unit, aside from all the aforementioned issues. That is good news. FLIR customer service is the best I have ever experienced. |
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