This thing is an order of magnitude better than anything else I've ever used or owned, I am simply blown away.  I will do my best to get some good representative pics of what I'm looking at but it is absolutely breathtaking.  Some of the features designed into this thing are really quite incredible.  Has anyone else used one of these things before?  The thermals I've used to date are AN/PAS-19, NVS MX-2, Thermal Eye X50 (used that one the most), and a brief 10 min or so w/ the FLIR PS-24.  The NVS unit was very nice too but none of them hold a candle to this thing.  I'm really looking forward to getting some time behind this unit and sharing w/ you guys.  It was driving me nuts not being able to find a great deal of info out there so if anyone interested in one has any questions, ask me and I will do my best to answer if possible.  Hopefully w/in the next couple weeks I'll be able to get to the range to verify POI shift.  I'm absolutely thrilled I bought something w/ adjustable focus, the image this thing produces when it is focused perfectly is astounding and just look like black and white reality.  

Obligatory pic



More to come...

Ewe Bass Turd!

You beat me to it.  

I just picked up an LWTS, and will be using it with an Elcan and ACOG.

From everything I've seen, it's the single-best thermal clip-on yet made. I can't wait to see FLIR's response, which I presume will be the replacement for or next generation of the current T70.

The LWTS is something special.

You've got that right!  So, there are a couple nice features on these that I knew nothing of before reading the manual (which just became available to me around noon today, right before I had to go to work of course).  

*If you only have two batteries available, you can install them diagonal to one another and the unit will run anyway...  albeit at a reduced battery life
*You can leave the shuttered calibration mode on auto or manual (press two buttons simultaneously to do a shuttered cal).  You can also do a shutterless calibration (silent) at any time, regardless of the mode you are in, by pressing two other buttons simultaneously while the objective cap is in place.  
*The M4 reticle is delightfully simple at wide FOV (1x), but contains a nice BDC out to 500m on narrow FOV (2x)

I think L3/Insight really listened to exactly what the end users wanted and essentially compiled it into this unit.  I will be able to do a bit more experimentation tomorrow evening and Thursday, I'm looking forward to it!

Congrats! No one's responding to this post because they are too busy wallowing in jealousy and self-pity . Should be able to tag some nice critters with that bad boy!

Quit fooling around and get an ACOG or ELCAN for it already, it's a match made in heaven.....

P.S. -> you are going to have a very difficult time keeping up with my T-70's!

LOL

Ok so I just got done looking around the pond w/ it on the setup in the pic above.  The image is fantastic  Even through the admittedly cheapo Weaver Kaspa "tactical" 2.5-10x50 it looks GREAT between 2.5 and 6ish.  Tonight or tomorrow night I'll also be using it in front of a Primary Arms 1-6 gen 2.  I also suddenly have a deeper respect for those of you that can repeatedly get good pics through something like this, talk about frustrating!  Hopefully using a real camera will yield better results.  More to follow on that.

Aside from my inability to capture good pics thus far, "the last 24 hours have been really exciting."  Ok, ignore the cheesy Independence Day quote, it really has been awesome.  I've read the manual cover to cover now at least twice and have put probably an hour behind it, mostly handheld.  The easy controls for adjusting the image are very handy for bringing out fine details in otherwise poor thermal conditions, I was very impressed by this.  Black hot really seems to be ideal so far around here (Gulf coast of FL) in the ambient conditions I've used it in so far but I'm sure that will vary.  I know I already talked about how much I love the adjustable objective lens but I can't say enough about it.  It allows for VERY FINE adjustment for perfect focus, it's BUTTER SMOOTH yet has sufficient resistance so that it doesn't move on its own...  it's perfection IMHO.  The wife got a kick out of me writing messages on the wall for her to read.  I just drag my finger across the wall (don't even have to hold them there, just drag) and she reads it and starts laughing her ass off  I couldn't do that w/ my fixed focus AN/PAS-19!  The sensitivity is really quite wild, again far better than anything else I've used.  My footsteps were visible on the carpet for several minutes just walking normally.  As for critters, I have gotten to observe dogs out to 220 yards and a couple Ibises closer in w/o any problem whatsoever.  That was while it was HOT outside, I can't even imagine if it was a nice brisk day.  Anyways, I'm just rambling at this point but I'm having a ball with it.

The next time I'm at the range I'm going to see if one of the guys w/ an ACOG would let me try it out.  I like the glass in the ACOGs I've used, but I wasn't in love w/ the eye relief...  plus I'm a sucker for variable power  As for the T70, I've never used ANY clip-on (NV or thermal) other than this one so I have no idea how the two would compare side by side looking at the same scene.  I seriously considered flying out to Las Vegas to try both at SPI but work is ceaseless and getting more than a weekend off at a time (every other weekend at that) is virtually impossible.  It would be nice if there were dealers for this stuff in each state but that likely wouldn't be feasible.  I must say, I'm digging the fact that I can use my dayscope at night w/o losing all of my eye relief because the PVS-14 ate it

I've tinkered with both, side-by-side. The only advantage the T70 has is in its 0.5x FOV. I can certainly see situations where that would come in handy, and why SP is so hot on it here he hunts, since you're more likely to be run over by a hog stampede than take one at 300 yards where he is.

For everything else, especially that gorgeous display, the LWTS is -- in my personal opinion -- clearly better. I believe this is why the military went with the LWTS over the T70 (as I have heard from others) for their TWS of choice.

The fact that it's $4k cheaper is just the cherry on top.  

Did it come with a video cable???

And you are missing out on all the beautiful functional color pallets too....




Horta is right, when you are in the dark on the ground with dangerous game at night in the dark, WIDE FOV is your friend and savior.

forget the acog, get a leupold mk6 1-6 or similar

Why no love for ACOGs?  The glass is great, the rail estate is minimal, they are built like tanks, and the ER is a non-issue with the 11-series without sacrificing FoV like with the 33-series.

In my experience with mil-spec clip-on thermals, it is best to use the day optics for which they are specifically designed to function with, this is either a 4X ACOG or ELCAN 1-4X.

This allows for maximum FOV, observation of internal icons, and if it is not a safe queen, range trophy, or internet bragging device, actual hunting use is maximized.

I agree with you regarding the reading internal icons and achieving maximum fov, but acogs cannot provide that
now the elcan does, but you loose the  variable aspect
albeit the bulk of a day scope it has it's merits in this application. the mk4 1-6 or similar is the best stand alone day scope to accompany a clip-on, hands down. the only way you can do better is with a mk8 1-8
eta: imho, all are good answers

Reading this thread is a bit like reading a thread discussing the merits of a Ferrari 458 versus those of an Aventador.

**ETA:  SPI finally made the video cable thing right with me**



No it did not come w/ a video cable.  Per a post from the vendor I purchased from on another forum, the cable would be free to those who purchased the LWTS unit from them but so far nothing has come of that.  W/ regard to color, it would be a nice extra but I feel like the only color mode I would ever use would be InstAlert (or equivalent).  I had gobs of color pallets on the FLIR inspection camera I had five years ago and found myself really only using the B/W when using it to find critters (yes I'm aware those weren't designed for that, but it still worked).  To me, the constantly changing colors were distracting when trying to find discreet targets in the semi-wooded areas.  I really like the LWTS display as it stand currently, the view has incredible detail and is very easy on the eyes

When you do get a video cable, try to get one with a 90 degree connection junction to the LWTS housing as the ones that stick straight out are going to be a major pain in the ass to attempt to do any video recording anywhere in the woods besides being on a controlled range somewhere....those 90 degree video cables are virtually worthless under actual hunting scenarios....

Ok so the tripod helped A LOT.  I should've done this last night but didn't.  I used the tripod that came w/ my Konus spotting scope for this and it, of course, increased stability immeasurably.  The tripod itself is a curiously designed item that leaves much to be desired, but that is neither here nor there...  it functioned fine for this.  The first pic below is of the setup used for taking the pics, my trusty 5 year old 10MP Canon, Konus tripod, pic rail adapter, and of course the magnificent LWTS AN/PAS-13G.  



Pictures two and three below are essentially identical, I just took two to make sure they turned out decent, which they did.





Picture four below is the same scene as in the previous two only w/ the FOV switched to "narrow" (2x zoom).  Note in this pic the NFOV reticle automatically adds 400 and 500 meter BDC aim points.  Also, the size of the various ranging components of the reticle and ranging stadia increase in size as would be the case in a FFP riflescope so there would be no change in these functions based on digital magnification.  This pic didn't turn out as well as I was hoping, way too much of the detail is missing.  It's not the compression, it's the photographer.  



As usual, the image is even better through the viewfinder.  I am, however, pleased w/ how some of these came out as I was thinking it wasn't going to be in any way representative of what the user sees.  The pics lose some of the fine detail the user sees but are otherwise fairly accurate.  In black hot mode, the camera refused to get a good image otherwise I'd have a few of those too.  The conditions these pics were shot in were 92 degrees F, 50% humidity, partly cloudy.  The buildings across the pond are a laser-measured 227 yards away, the far bank of the pond is about 210-215 yards depending on the spot.  The large black triangle of near-opacity visible in the pics is a big ass fountain toward the far end of the pond.  More to come soon.

I'll be in my bunk....

Try to get some live animals in the photos, even stray dogs, cats, ducks or anything besides just buildings and streets.

That's the plan for tonight  The tripod has made all the difference in the world so as long as the creatures cooperate.  I love how much thought went into the design of this thing.  The calibration settings are great, you can choose auto or manual (default when resetting the unit is auto) but at any point, regardless of mode, you can also do either a manual shuttered calibration (press both + buttons simultaneously) or cover the objective and do a silent manual calibration (press both - buttons simultaneously).  The manual calibration is silent because it does not involve the shutter, hence no subtle click.  I would've loved to have seen image capture designed into it but I can certainly live w/o it given this sort of performance level.  I'm happy to say the least.

I need new pants.

I love the LWTS and that beautiful display. I did a side by side with it and several others and felt (along with everyone else there) that it came out on top. BUT, if you want a good laugh, call L3 and ask them how much it would cost to buy a cable. It's at least good for a chuckle.

Out of curiosity, what all units did you test it against?

Well, it wasn't actually much of a test, more like a bunch of guys tailgating with thermals, but we had an OASYS T/LR, T-50, T-70, LWTS, CNVD-T, and a few dedicated sights. I find it crazy that anyone could ask $1,300 for a cable though! Did you get yours from SPI, if you don't mind me asking?

Yes I purchased mine from SPI.  $1300 for a cable LOL!?  I thought firewire was a ripoff ten years ago at ~$30 for a 5-6 ft, but $1300 is ludicrous.  As I mentioned earlier there was a thread on the hide in which they stated that their home-brew cable would be free w/ the purchase of an LWTS from them.  I'm currently waiting to hear back from them as to whether or not that will come to fruition.  I'm in no hurry w/ the cable, but I would really appreciate it if they made good on their offer.  I'm glad to hear this unit compared favorably to the others you listed, so far I'm thrilled with it.  I went for 6 or so months w/o thermal since I sold my X50 to help fund this, I'm glad to have the capability back.  Between this unit and my new Crye Nightcap, I'm happy as a lark w/ my current NV setup.

Nice!!!!

I was guesstamating just around 225yds based on size of front door and bdc reticle spread which was a close guess until I read the text at bottom of pic which states the yardage

2x narrow fov with 4x acog= dead critters at medium ranges

I have tried all sorts of scopes with my thermals over the years trying to push things to the max and none work better than the ACOG and ELCANs with any of them.

I use the ACOGs on my 556s and the ELCANs on my 7.62s for greater eye relief.

BTW, the ACOGs are the TAO2 LED models, not the chevron light fiber ones.

BTW, the reflections you are seeing in the water are due to the fact that thermal emissions do no pass through liquids like water or glass and are reflected by them...it is always kind of disconcerting using InstaAlert and seeing a hog rooting next to the water on the edge of the lake and see two bright red hogs, only one is real, the other is a reflection.

Thank you for the enlightenment as always, T.  I was wondering about that since I don't use thermal around significant water surfaces very often, although I am well familiar with the "mirror effect" of looking at plate glass.

You just presented me with a to do for this evening...walk around the nearby ponds to observe the thermal reflection, although I will be limited by my POS M24.  

I never made it there...

Wow, those pics look great plus I know pics never show just how nice the image really looks to your eye.

Is the front portion of your scope mount sitting in between your upper receiver and your hand guard? Kinda looks like it in the picture.

Exactly!!!

It does look that way, but 90%+ of the contact surface of the forward mounting lug is on the receiver not the quad rail.  I would rather ALL of it be on the receiver but since I wanted the 20 MOA in a slightly cantilevered LaRue scope mount I had to buy that one which was made for scopes w/ larger turret areas (ie. USO), taking away from forward/aft adjustability of scope position.  I'm still playing w/ it but this is where it puts my eye relief where I want it for NTCH shooting.

It's your rifle, but I would pad the butt sock a bit and move the mount back one notch, just to be safe. I like removing as many variables as possible.

So the only creatures that were available after work today were three ibises and a couple ducks.  I'm very much wishing I had a video cable and DVR right now as this is pretty cumbersome shooting a digital camera through the unit.  The first two pics, one of the scene through the thermal and one of the scene through the standard camera, are came out ok but the thermal image again does no justice to the real thing.  The digital pics seem to really rob a lot of the contrast and brightness, but it's the best I can do w/ the current setup.  Keep in mind the ground is still decently warm from the day's sunshine, yet the birds are easily visible.  Two of the ibises are visible in this pic near the center and the two ducks are toward the far left on a winding part of the pond bank.





The pic below is of the same ducks



The pic below is of the same two ibises just a little further down.  Again, the pics don't do the real pic justice.  Hopefully SPI will soon make good on their free cable offer...  



The video below is of essentially the same scene as the previous pic.  NOTE:  The choppiness of this video must've come from uploading to photobucket as it is smooth as butter on my laptop



The pic below is a close range shot of a small palm in front of my screen in porch.  NOTE:  The pic has a lot more noise due to the screen being between the scope and the object, the actual view was MUCH sharper



Compared to the other thermals I have used, this thing has almost science fiction-esque sensitivity.  Once I can get a day or two off of work I will try to get out into the country a little to get some better pics.  Since that may be a while I'm going to ride my bike to the reservoir for some pics ASAP.  I can't even imagine how powerful of a tool this thing would be over an open field.  I'm VERY MUCH looking forward to coyote hunting in Indiana w/ it this winter!

Thanks for the nice pics and glad to hear that you are enjoying your new thermal, it has been a long time coming and now that you have it you will enjoy many fine night hunts with it.

It is truly amazing how well insulated ducks and other birds are. When I first got my LS-64 I thought it would be great to for retrieving ducks in the lilly pads, you'd thing it would work great with a hot duck laying in cold water, but that is not the case, their feather insulate the heat so much the have little to no thermal signature except for their head and feet.

A video cable would be nice, you'd think that would be part of the kit to begin with as it is a thermal video camera after all and has a video out port? Kinda sux that is not part of the package but hope you get your hands on one soon.

Well, that shoots down one of my plans for my LS64.  

No pun intended.

I really thought the thermal scanners would be awesome for water-fowling, but no such luck, a trained hard working retriever is the only way to go...

Tough to beat a good dog for comfort in the blind.  At this point, though, I'm not sure if I take her hunting or if she takes me.  

The pics done lie. The L3 LWTS is the best clip on I've ever used. Blows away my T50 and T60. Your pics are phenomenal. Call SPI, they have video out cables.

Thanks!  Some of them turned out better than others and none of them are as good as what the actual user sees, of course.  I've never used a T50 or T60 (or any clip-on period for that matter), but it seems others who have used them all agree with your statement.  I'm thinking this on my Daniel Defense in front of the PA gen2 1-6 scope,  IR laser, AAC SDN-6, and Crye Nightcap mounted 14 will make a nice combination

Interesting, white-hot yet white crosshairs?

The reticle has modes for ARC (automatically determined by background near reticle, awesome), white, black, or auto (white on black hot, and black on white hot).  Again, it seems like there wasn't much the designers didn't think of  Kudos to L3/Insight, this thing is a marvel.

Thanks for the good firsthand info on the LWTS. It is really hard to find any on these. Please keep it coming as you get more time to play with it and hopefully scope some more animals (mammals maybe).

Looks like I just placed an order for one myself.

A couple more notes on this unit that I found while messing with it tonight that may be of interest to prospective buyers are listed below.  This is regarding the use of the unit in stand-alone mode.

1.  A question I had from before I bought one was whether or not the reticles would be independently adjustable or if they would all be set to the same zero point.  They are in fact able to be independently zeroed which is a positive in my book.  Keep one reticle zeroed for gun A and one for gun B.  Regardless of which reticle you chose, the X/Y coordinates of the reticle aim point are displayed.  There are two adjustable reticles on these units described below.  The third reticle is the "5 Mil" which, unfortunately, is not adjustable and is intended only for milling ranges (30 mils above and below center, 55 mils to each side all in 5 mil increments).  There is also a selection for no reticle when in stand-alone mode.  Note all reticles act as if they are in the first focal plane, meaning that the hash mark values remain accurate regardless of whether at WFOV (1x) or NFOV (2x).
    A.  M4 reticle which, on wide FOV (1x) has center aim point for 300m zero and 500m aim point (top of bottom vertical post).  In narrow FOV (2x) the reticle has 300m, 400m, and 500m aim points and no bottom post.
          The distance between the top post (above the 300m aim point) and the 500m aim point represents the height of a 5' person (shortish man?) at 300m.  If you have the ranging stadia turned on, this is redundant.
    B.  M136 reticle which has 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 500m, and 600m aim points.  The height of the post at each aim point on this corresponds to the height of a 5' person at that range.  Maybe useful for subsonic stuff?

2.  Per the manual, the adjustments of each reticle are in increments of 1cm (2 units) at 25 yards in WFOV (1x) and 0.5cm (1 unit) at 25 yards at NFOV (2x).  In experimenting tonight, I found that the max elevation/depression is 160 units.  When transitioning to NFOV with the reticle at this extreme, the reticle was near the top of the FOV.  This indicates that the WFOV and NFOV have the same center regardless of reticle position.  At a glance, the zero appeared completely unchanged when transitioning between WFOV and NFOV.  I will verify that at the range next week.  I did not try to max out the windage.  

Great info.....Best clip on thermal! Love mine!

What is the size of the front and rear objective lenses? It looks like the front (toward muzzle) is larger than the rear but I was just curious as to what the actual size is.

Another question I had about this unit before buying was what exactly changed between clip-on mode and stand-alone mode.  I could tell from the pictures that the placement of the symbology (battery life, AGC on/off, polarity, menu options) changes to near the center of the FOV so that one can still see settings and manipulate menu functions when viewing the display through a magnified optic.  Other than that I was curious as to what, if anything, changes when going between modes.  As it turns out, very little changes other than what I've already mentioned and the fact that the FOV (zoom) function is disabled.  In fact, per the manual, the unit can still be used in stand-alone mode as a clip-on so long as it is in WFOV (1x).  If using it in this manner, changing to NFOV (2x) may induce error so that the POI/POA of the day sight may change.  The only time I can see benefit in using the LWTS in stand-alone mode but as a clip-on would be with a 1x sight like a red dot so that you can still have access to the ranging stadia (also not accessible from clip-on mode).  There is definitely something to be said about the ease of use of the LWTS.  The button layout and functions are very intuitive which is great, of course, for use in the dark.  After reading the quick reference card supplied w/ the unit and playing w/ it for five minutes is was very easy.  Another very nice little nugget about it is that you can always adjust thermal gain and level, even when AGC (auto gain control) is turned on.  When AGC is turned off you can adjust from nearly nil to as high as it will go.  When AGC is on you can still adjust but the available adjustment range is in a more narrowly defined range.  I'm pretty thrilled with it so far, I'm having trouble finding things that I would want changed.  It's very nearly perfect IMHO.  Well played L3

Match made in heaven?  

very sweet rig!