OK, so the RAPTAR arrived today, in pretty retail packaging that you normally find at your local BestBuy store  

Just looking through the clear plastic window, this thing looks HUGE! (!!!). It looks like a storage box for a PEQ-15, but that difference really isn't reflected in the photos below. I understand the delay of about 0.5 second before it does something, i.e. so you don't accidentally bump the very exposed buttons and turn something on in the heat of battle that you don't want to come on. However, if they would recess those buttons more, like on the Goat, I think they'd be better if everything were "instant-on." That on/pff delay applies to everything -- the laser, white light, etc.

My jury is still out on the LED readout. I think it's a superfluous feature and I'd rather omit it in favor of a lower profile, but again I can understand that the intended market will have / use the LRF that is missing in the "Lite ES" version. I'm going to compare the lasers / illuminator to the Goat sometime this week and will post comparison photos afterward in this thread, if I can find the time!

I dunno. I'm definitely going to have to put it through it's paces to see if I'm going to keep it, or wind up trading it out for something else I want. Right now, my initial first impressions aren't wholly positive, but that could change once I get used to it and use it. I know it's too early to render judgment, but I'm having a tough time coming to grips with the overall monstrosity of the thing, along with some of the useless features and delayed activation.

Time will tell.

Comparison photos, Goat SN blurred for obvious reasons:

 

I'm quickly running out of internal organs to sell. Got any to spare?  

lol you need to send me one of your 14's for propper disposal.

nice lasers, the flashlight style "head" kinda turns me off. be interesting to hear how well it works though. I will take function over form.

Well, that sucks for sure, I was really hoping to hear better from this one. I do appreciate the honest feedback on the item. I think that I would be in the same boat as you in that the IR illuminator is just as important as the laser. I cannot have a weak illuminator. I would be ok with a .7MW aimer with a diffused 25-30MW illuminator or something along those lines.

I have to hope that someone comes along with a method to get the right product onto the market.

The D2 illuminator crushes this one by a country mile. In the .CIV world, LED definitely outperforms Class 1 lasers. I'm not a huge fan of the tractor beam on the front of the D2, but I think it's really a necessity in this market.

Wilcox touts 300m for the illuminator range, but that's going to work only if you really focus it down to a smaller circle. I like to run the Goat illuminator on high, but wide open. That works great, and allows for a much better FOV when spotting and works well out past 500 yards at full FOV.

I'd trade the RAPTAR for a DBAL-D2 today if someone were willing.

I just got mine today too, and I'm not real impressed with the illuminator either.  I'll give it a better chance this weekend when I can get out in the country and use it where there is no ambient light, but I'm thinking this is going back to Botach.  It doesn't seem to be anywhere close to my TLR-1 IR or 952v.  Other than that I really like it, but the poor illuminator is kind of a deal breaker.

That's disappointing to hear...

Thanks for the info though.

I figured this would be the consensus when these started getting out to the population. A PEQ-15 or class 1 alternative with a good standalone illuminator is a more versatile package that allows you to mitigate comprises. With this, you basically get a really snazzy pile of mediocrity. If the LRF were included in this version, it would be a winner, but as it stands now, it's just a miss. It's a "yes, but" device. Does it have a laser? Yes but it's class 1. An illuminator? Yes but it sucks. Is it cool? Yes but it kinda sucks.

I'll play devils advocate on the Wilcox here for one reason: you guys get all the cool toys and complain about them ;)

Granted as Canadians we do get access to unrestricted IR Illuminators on what little lasers we have access to, but we pay for it by not having as good nods, lasers, or 90% of the cool factor across the board.

What the Wilcox RAPTAR seems to do is combine a number of different features into one, nice discrete package. I love it's profile when mounted, and the fact you can program the hell out of it is unique. You have slaved adjustment on all three lasers, and a mediocre but appreciated white light. It does manage to combine a number of features that would seem ideal, but on the illuminator seems to be giving the Wilcox a "fail" grade point average. I want to do a thought experiment

Would you judge it as harshly if it did not make the attempt at including the illuminator at all?

The first thought would be that it would have to have a reduced price point to warrant this, but since most of you guys seem to be grabbing them on this fire sale at around the 1200 mark we'll give that as the current measure. Would you be willing to spend 1200 dollars for a slaved Red/IR laser, with a white light built into the module and operating off the same battery, with programmable features? To me that price doesn't seem so far out of line. Throw in the illuminator as a circumstantial bonus for some situations.

We all knew deep down the "Class 1 Illuminator" wasn't going to pump out the amount of IR some people need. It probably does an admirable job if you focus it down, but then that makes scanning nearly impossible. Would you be able to use it to get positive recognition on something you have detected on thermal? From the one or two videos uploaded online this looks like something it would be capable of doing.

I don't think there will ever be one piece of kit that solves all your problems - it'd be nice if there were but each person has unique requirements on what they need to run and how they are willing to accomplish that task. Even if the Wilcox RAPTAR did do it all, you might not prefer a set up like that. I know I personally like to have different features set to different methods of activating it, as I know the tape switch at location 1 turns on my white light, and the tape switch at location 2 turns on my laser. Potentially having to fiddle with that selection dial may not be something that fits your requirement, so even if the Wilcox RAPTAR's illuminator did live up to everyones expectations it may not have even been the tool for you.

I don't mean to be condescending or preachy, I just see what appears to be a lot of judgement on what it can't do as opposed to what it accomplishes. It looks like an incredible piece of kit that is getting a bad rap because the illuminator isn't outputting up to expectations. Frankly one of the most recommended lasers on this forum, DBAL-I2, has an obvious design flaw in that the lasers are not slaved and have to be adjusted independently (What is the deal with that?!) - it still goes for a pretty penny while receiving accolades. I think that the Wilcox RAPTAR, and it's handicapped illuminator, do have a place in this world... Although if pure IR output is what you are after it seems like the D2 is still the way to go.

And yes, if I lived a few miles south of where I do now I'd already own one of these by this point.

::shrug::

Yanking the LRF pretty much killed the interest of the RAPTAR for me.  

The "problem" I think, is that after using a Class III TPIAL and ATPIAL for a while, you can't really go back and you need something either relatively similar, or that "adds" something to the mix.  

I agree on the DBAL-I2... even though I almost cracked a couple times because of cost considerations, I just can't do the unslaved lasers.  It's one thing if there is no VIS laser like on a TPIAL, but the non-slaved lasers are super

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, an ATPIAL-C or offset CQBL is way overdue - it seems vaguely ridiculous to me that LDI won't just release a DBAL that's the aiming laser "half" of the D2 - illumination needs at this point, I think are still better served by separate modules in the Class I world, as well as white lights - and the availability of dual switches like the SF SR-D-IT make it too easy to run them pretty much any why you like without the bulk of the RAPTAR.  

I think it would've been better if they'd dropped the while light component of the RAPTAR and put the LRF in its place.  

Oh well.  

~Augee

I think the biggest frustration is that the way the light is designed is it severely limits that kind of head an be used. At some point they're going to need to figure out a way to add another cell in order to allow 2-cell SF heads.

Either that or some enterprising third party needs to figure out how upgradeable this thing is, and if the illuminator can be "upgraded".

ETA: Once again, if LDI were to release the D2 with a dual spectrum illuminator like their MK3 light, that would be the best option.
Imagine the D2 with an adjustable 500 lumen light and 600mw IR illuninator.

I'd like to see Wilcox look into doing something like that too.

That is my problem with the unit. While it is a arduous task, there are legal channels to get say PEQ-2's and 15's. The PEQ-2 is half the price of the RAPTAR and the illuminator is as good as it gets, better in fact than the 15 due to the lens. Sure, its huge, but I can live with that. Slap a 500 lumen scout light on there and you have better capabilities all around for less money. You don't have a vis laser that way, but it is not much more challenging to sight in an IR laser than it is to tie your shoes.

Yeah, roger... that's not anywhere in my price range.  

I at least want to get NV binos and/or a CNVD before I'd even consider LRF - but I didn't realize that they released a civilian version with LRF, but I haven't followed the RAPTAR as closely.  

~Augee

I went out last night with the RAPTAR, the PEQ-15, and a $150 DBAL-A2 Chinese clone I bought off the EE last month and compared illuminators with the PEQ LOW power setting exclusively. I'll try to get some photos tonight, as I was just holding the three units in my hands trying to line them up side-by-side and focus all of the illuminators down to the same circle size.

I was BLOWN away.

Again, remembering this was with the PEQ on LOW power, which is still pretty darn good and very usable, the cheap $150 Chinese DBAL clone was marginally better than the PEQ, and it CRUSHED, in no uncertain terms, the illuminator on the RAPTAR.

I was disappointed in the RAPTAR illuminator before, but after seeing this with my own eyes I'm downright devastated. For my use, the RAPTAR is essentially an oversized, overpriced Class 1 IR laser.

Wait until you see the photos. You simply won't believe it. Someone come to my house this weekend and vouch for me. Either I have a dud, or this is a cruel joke. I can't imagine a more disappointing performance than getting crushed by a toy.

Ugh. Someone kill me.

The shoot (hang) horses, don't they?

I have learned to hunt with low powered illuminators. I guess you are just too dependent on that light saber to make it work for ya, but for me the raptar is working out great.
I just need to outline the animal so I can get the laser on his ass at 150 or so yards, works for me.  I hunt wide open deserts and the starlight make it like daylight.
hell before all this NV craziness it was done with a 400,000 CP spotlight painted deep red. talk about barely seeing an outline, even with good glass (dayscope). I guess I have been born of low light.

Can the illuminator be adjusted on the RAPTAR? If so does it compare to something like the Vampire or WMX200 when in "flood"?

I need something to compensate for my lack of skill.

I guess I'm expecting too much, and maybe the Chicom knock-off is using a more powerful laser and is not eye-safe. I don't know, really.

I'll try to post the photos tonight. I'm hoping I have a complete dud. There's just no way anyone would be satisfied with the illuminator on this thing. It's also asymmetrical, which could mean I have a dud as well. The center two-thirds of the circle are markedly brighter than the lower and upper portion. It's almost a rectangle inside of the circle that is illuminated.

More likely than not, yes.

the raptars flood is adjustable. its about the same intensity of the surefire m1 when adjusted to same diameter.

I don't have an M1 to compare it to, unfortunately. Compared to the M952V, the RAPTAR is completely outclassed, but the 952 cannot be focused, unfortunately.

I guess the RAPTAR is out for me for now.  The IR illum was the only selling point for me. The anemic white light is useless vs most other options.  The LRF version is ridiculously priced so it is out as a cool feature as well.  If the IR illum is not superior to other IR LED options, it has no appeal to me.

Right now I'm using a DBAL I2 and/or CQBL depending on the rifle plus a Surefire Vampire.  Any other system has to beat that for me to consider switching.  The RAPTAR seems to lag on price, size, and weight and offers no performance increase.

I compared my Raptar to my M1 last night and the m1 was easily twice as bright in my apartment with all lights off.  I tried shining them both off my balcony across the street (30 yards) to the dumpster and while there is a lot of ambient light I could still see the M1 beam. The Raptar completely disappeared, even focused all the way down it was barely visible.

My last hope is that I have a DUD, and that my experience is atypical. I was really hopped up about getting one, and I'd like to keep it if it turns out that my unit is underperforming. The IR laser works great, but it won't be any different from what you're using. I can see where the white light would be useful, but it's not worth double the cost of a DBAL-i2 and Surefire, and there are compromises (output). If there is a way I can get the damn illuminator to show up, I'd be all over this thing.  

thats a let down, the first time I tried an M1 I was dissapointed.

I guess I expected it to go further

If you don't like the raptar, return it. I am sure most companies would honor a return within 30 days right?

Yes, I'm sure they would. However, I think I'll trade it for something else I might like  

Also, for those who are considering the RAPTAR, and will really rely on the illuminator, they should know it sucks compared to many alternatives out there -- again, if mine is typical.

It is weak, BUT it is a laser. no visible signature.

Agreed.

For the botach price, this thing is a good deal.  For 1600, there are better options.  I dont personally think the illuminator is as bad as you have stated, but you also have more illuminators than me .  I do like that it doesn't have a visible signature, so that is a bonus.  It is certainly useful, and a benefit versus other systems without one.  The white light is garbage, but then again Wilcox didn't design this unit to have one, so in a way, I can't fault them.  Its good enough if you have to kick a door or look for something.  Visibly ID a target at 100+ yards?  Nope, but thats why we have NVG's.  Luckily I have my wilcox on a rifle where white light isn't a primary concern.  

As far as weight, when you think of whats in it, its not bad.  10 ounces isn't terrible, and although it is big, it does sit VERY low on the rail, much more so than any DBAL out there.  Great with variable power scopes, such as my MK6.

Its definitely not a total bust, and some guys I've shown it to LOVE it.  It does have some nice benefits, but it ain't perfect either.

All true, but I think I over-hyped it in my head. Reading all the reports and watching all the YT reviews, not to mention my first-ever IR / ILLUM experience was with the Goat. The laser and white light are nice, certainly, but I think I'm going to need something less "pitiful" on the ILLUM end. I've been eyeballing a SPIR at TNVC and still have yet to check out on my other items, so...  

FYI, got the arm today! Thanks, bro.

Which is what seals the deal for me, and why my ears perked up when Vic mentioned some new laser IR illuminators are in the works...

I hope im not doing this with my pvs14 purchase thats in the works.
for 3k im expecting quite a bit over my gen 1 setup.

Somehow, I don't think you're going to experience the same level of disappointment.  

I'm going to give it a try tom night and see, but I'll probably send it back. $1200 is too much for me personally given the performance. Not bashing it all, I really like it otherwise, but the illuminator is a deal breaker for me. I'll either get a D2 or just wait and see what comes out in the future and use my CQBL and 952v for now. LDI said in one thread they are working on something like the PL for carbines.

THIS.

Gen 1-Gen 3= welcome to OZ bitch.

You're going from pony league to the MLB with one swing of the bat, and you will be very happy.

Our bitching is like going from gen 3 with a dust speck to gen 3 without one.  99.5%-99.9%.  First world problems, no doubt.

You'll be happy.

TheHorta: have you tried the crimson trace IR rail master

the price point is pure awesome compared to some of these high end lasers. and leaves rail space for a nice illuminator.
I have it mounted on an A2 front sight rail. even with gen 1 I dont have any problems at all seing it out to 100ish yards

works great for a budget IR laser, has a solid on/off feel when pressing the leaf to activate it.

only downfall I can find is no remote activation

After (briefly) dorking with the illuminator tonight, I've got to say that it makes the SureFire M1 seem like The Torch in comparison....



But, conditions weren't conducive to giving it a fair shake, so I'm going to give it another go in the next day or so.  Maybe it was a combination of things that made it seem like a poor performer, and it may realistically be as much illumination as I'll needed for hog/coyote control, but even with my low expectations I was still surprised....

OK, as promised, here are some really (really) crappy iPad 4 photos through one of the OPMOD units. The first is with the gain adjusted WAY down so not to have the image hot-spots so washed out. The next are with the gain set about 1/3 of the way up.

I'll put which spot is coming from which illuminator, but in all three the WEAKEST illuminator is the RAPTAR -- by a ridiculous amount.

The first TWO images are with the PEQ illuminator on the LOW setting. The $150 Chinese DBAL clone is a smidge brighter, and a little more uniform. The RAPTAR is anemic, and completely asymmetrical. I'd like other RAPTAR owners to chime in and tell me if this is typical, or if I have a dud / malfunctioning unit. Any distortion in the circles is because I'm shining them down onto the roadway about 30 yards from the top of my driveway. Otherwise, aside from the Wilcox, the two other illuminator circles are almost perfectly round.

First photo -- PEQ on the LEFT, Chinese DBAL clone in the middle, RAPTAR on the right:


Second photo - I turned the gain up a little and moved the RAPTAR to the middle spot, just to show it isn't the illuminated area causing the difference. This really washed out both the PEQ and Chicom DBAL circles to the point they're indistinguishable from eachother:


Third photo - shining into my neighbors trees at about 75 yards. PEQ is on HIGH (left) and DBAL on right and RAPTAR almost completely LOST in the middle:


So, in short, either I have a malfunctioning unit or the RAPTAR laser illuminator is for crap. I didn't bother testing the RAPTAR against an M952V, which I could do, but I will guarantee the 952 will absolutely CRUSH the RAPTAR.

wow... that performance of the raptor is terrible. I would have expected much better.

also looks like you spotted a chupicabra in the last photo

A totally retarded Chupacabra that loves to stick his snout in your crotch every chance he gets.

Looks like what I saw, also.

The illuminator is basically a glorified IR nav laser.

You're pics look about the same as mine, and the beam on mine is like yours, not uniform.  I did get to try it out tonight out in the country and it was pretty much what I expected, the 952v without a doubt is infinitely brighter.  Even the M1 inside of 30 yards is considerably brighter.  With the Raptar flood completely opened up I can't even see the beam, you really have to narrow it down for it to be usable.  I found 200 yards to be about the max it was worth anything and that was with a beam only a few feet wide.  The 952 by comparison lit the whole damn field up like daytime and was still much brighter at 200 yards with a 40-50 foot wide pattern.  The Raptar is not completely useless if you don't mind the illuminator not being that great, it's still workable.  But if you've ever used any other illuminator you will be disappointed with this one.

For me, it's just too expensive for the illuminator to be that weak.  It should really be priced <$1000, it would be worth the cost they want for it if it had a good illuminator. I really thought I was going to love the Raptar, and I would if not for this one issue, but I am sadly disappointed by it.  Mine is going back to Botach on Monday unless someone here wants a good deal on it.

My DBAL D2  showed up today from TNVC and my Raptar is on it's way back to Botach, hopefully they process that quickly.  With the IR Sale the DBAL still cost about $200 more than the Raptar.  The overall size is considerably smaller than the Raptar, however it is noticeably heavier too.  This thing is built like a tank, where the Raptar felt more fragile since the housing was some kind of polymer/fiberglass thing.

The Raptar sits much lower to the rail than the D2 does, but the D2 isn't horribly high, the Raptar is just very low profile due to it's mounting bracket.  The mount on the D2 is much more sturdy than the Raptar and the mounting bracket on it was too small to mount it on my Seekins BAR hand guard.  I believe the D2 will mount on just about any rail.  The D2 has a simple knob selector on the back which is far simpler and more intuitive than the Raptar. The Raptar is far more customizable, but you are going to have to spend a lot of time learning how, the D2 is simply slap it on and go.

I'm still waiting for it to get dark enough to check out the illuminator and IR laser.  I do find it odd that the D2 has a high/low setting for the visible laser, which I find pretty useless, but does not have a high/low for the IR laser.  That's probably my only issue with the D2, but I did also get a neutral density filter to mitigate that.

ETA: just tested out the illuminator, HOLY CRAP!!!....... That thing is powerful, if the Raptar was half as good I probably would have kept it. It might be brighter than my SF 952v, but I will have to wait until the weekend to get out of the city and all the ambient light to see for sure.  Turning the adjustment ring is a little difficult and it's not real smooth, but hopefully it will get better with some use.

That's great to hear. I think I'm just going to keep the Raptar, although I don't know why. Maybe just to own it, I guess. I hate returning things, which I why I have a spare room full of new stuff in boxes I never got around to using. Sort of a neglected toy wing of my house  

Are we related?

But after getting to use the RAPTAR more, I'm actually OK with the level of IR illumination.  It's not great, but it's just barely adequate for my purposes.  The simple fact that it's a laser is what's keeping it around - if it was an LED producing that level of illumination then I'd have zero use for it.

That's pretty damn expensive to keep just for the sake of having it. Although it's possible that they could offer an upgrade for the illuminator in the future though.

Agreed, dump that POS back to botach and get something that you can use with the refund.

I don't know. It's only $1,100. Hardly anything out there that cheap worth owning.