My friend just had his Form 1 approved last week. It was approved without a Certificate of Citizenship. Took 60 days exactly from the day the check was cashed to his mailbox.

Just got two out of three form-1s sent on 10-18-2008 received 12-8-2008 without the citizenship forms. Trust transfer.

669101014 is an invalid value for m.


Thats what I get when I click on that link.

On the citizenship form. If im doing a trust do i put John Doe, or The John Doe Revocable Living Trust?

The from says..

1. Name under which the application was filed. (Last Name, First Name, Middle Name - or - Name of Corporation, Partnership, or Association, if applicable)


2. Name of person certifying to citizenship. (Last Name, First Name, Middle Name)

I did mine as..

1. The John Doe Revocable Living Trust
2.  Doe, John A

Is that correct? Or is it supposed to be 1 and 2 the same if its a trust?

correct except sign it Doe,m John A., Trustee

So?  I had some form 4's for an llc approved without the cert of citizenship.  I have also had trusts approved wothout the schedule A.

Then . . . . someone wakes up and you get a rejection-correction letter and your shit is hung up for a few more weeks.

What's the point?  Do what you know is right.

I'm about to send in my paperwork.  Do I use the July 2004 or September 2007 Form 1?  Or does it matter?  The ATF website says the form is not available electronically.

My form 4 got to Atlanta on Friday the 12th, so now comes the wait.  My dealer told me 6 weeks, but I have my fingers crossed on that one... Cant wait..

spr/m4 here I come..  

Question.  Let's say someone does a trust with like Quicken...and then has an attorney review it and they find a problem.  Can you amend the existing trust to fix the problem or do you create a new trust and transfer the items (and pay again)?

I'm trying to finish up writing up my RLT that I made with Quicken Willmaker, but am having a hard time trying to figure out what I should call it, surname it or abbreviate it to. I heard some people have written "...which shall also be known as the CMT&ART Trust" in their Part 1 of the RLT so that they can have something much smaller engraved on the front of their lowers. I don't think there's enough room to engrave:

"Cornelius Mortimer Tanfoglio and Articia Roxanne Tanfoglio Revocable Living Trust"

...on my lower. (names changed, but general overall lenght is still just as obscenely long...) Does the actual trust document have to SAY "CMT&ART Trust" in order for that to be engraved?

What other abbreviations are allowed?

I might go with "CMTanfaglio&ARTanfaglio Trust" or even "CM&ARTanfaglio Trust" to save space, but all initials is probably too compressed.  I used my and my wife's first initial and last name to name the trust, so we had just first initials with '&' between them, then our last name and "Trust" engraved.

You should be able to amend the trust.

deletteeeeddd

So paying you $500 beats what I have for FREE for MD, know it passes muster and is in full effect and force?

Dude - not to be rude, but 10 posts and you are asking $500 for what is below?  Fish elsewhere man.
Declaration of Trust

Part 1. Trust Name
This revocable living trust shall be known as the Name of your trust Revocable Living Trust.

Part 2. Declaration of Trust
Your Name, called the grantor, declares that he has transferred and delivered to the trustee all his interest in the property described in Schedule A attached to this Declaration of Trust. All of that property is called the "trust property." The trustee hereby acknowledges receipt of the trust property and agrees to hold the trust property in trust, according to this Declaration of Trust.
The grantor may add property to the trust.

Part 3. Terminology
The term "this Declaration of Trust" includes any provisions added by valid amendment.

Part 4. Amendment and Revocation
A. Amendment or Revocation by Grantor
The grantor may amend or revoke this trust at any time, without notifying any beneficiary. An amendment must be made in writing and signed by the grantor. Revocation may be in writing or any manner allowed by law.
B. Amendment or Revocation by Other Person
The power to revoke or amend this trust is personal to the grantor. A conservator, guardian or other person shall not exercise it on behalf of the grantor, unless the grantor specifically grants a power to revoke or amend this trust in a Durable Power of Attorney.

Part 5. Payments From Trust During Grantor's Lifetime
The trustee shall pay to or use for the benefit of the grantor as much of the net income and principal of the trust property as the grantor requests. Income shall be paid to the grantor at least annually. Income accruing in or paid to trust accounts shall be deemed to have been paid to the grantor.

Part 6. Trustees
A. Trustee
Your name shall be the trustee of this trust.
B. Trustee's Responsibilities
The trustee in office shall serve as trustee of all trusts created under this Declaration of Trust, including children's subtrusts.
C. Terminology
In this Declaration of Trust, the term "trustee" includes successor trustees or alternate successor trustees serving as trustee of this trust. The singular "trustee" also includes the plural.
D. Successor Trustee
Upon the death or incapacity of Your name, the trustee of this trust and of any children's subtrusts created by it shall be Name of secondary trustees. Each successor trustee has full and independent authority to act for and represent the trust. If Name of secondary trustees are unable or unwilling to serve as successor trustee, Name of successor trustees shall serve as trustee. Each of them has full and independent authority to act for and represent the trust.
E. Resignation of Trustee
Any trustee in office may resign at any time by signing a notice of resignation. The resignation shall be delivered to the person or institution who is either named in this Declaration of Trust, or appointed by the trustee under Section F of this Part, to next serve as the trustee.
F. Power to Appoint Successor Trustee
If no one named in this Declaration of Trust as a successor trustee or alternate successor trustee is willing or able to serve as trustee, the last acting trustee may appoint a successor trustee and may require the posting of a reasonable bond, to be paid for from the trust property. The appointment must be made in writing, signed by the trustee and notarized.
G. Bond
No bond shall be required for any trustee named in this Declaration of Trust.
H. Compensation
No trustee shall receive any compensation for serving as trustee, unless the trustee serves as a trustee of a child's subtrust created by this Declaration of Trust.
I. Liability of Trustee
With respect to the exercise or non-exercise of discretionary powers granted by this Declaration of Trust, the trustee shall not be liable for actions taken in good faith. Such actions shall be binding on all persons interested in the trust property.

Part 7. Trustee's Management Powers and Duties
A. Powers Under State Law
The trustee shall have all authority and powers allowed or conferred on a trustee under Maryland law, subject to the trustee's fiduciary duty to the grantors and the beneficiaries.
B. Specified Powers
The trustee's powers include, but are not limited to:
1. The power to sell trust property, and to borrow money and to encumber trust property, including trust real estate, by mortgage, deed of trust or other method.
2. The power to manage trust real estate as if the trustee were the absolute owner of it, including the power to lease (even if the lease term may extend beyond the period of any trust) or grant options to lease the property, to make repairs or alterations and to insure against loss.
3. The power to sell or grant options for the sale or exchange of any trust property, including stocks, bonds, debentures and any other form of security or security account, at public or private sale for cash or on credit.
4. The power to invest trust property in every kind of property and every kind of investment, including but not limited to bonds, debentures, notes, mortgages, stock options, futures and stocks, and including buying on margin.
5. The power to receive additional property from any source and add it to any trust created by this Declaration of Trust.
6. The power to employ and pay reasonable fees to accountants, lawyers or investment experts for information or advice relating to the trust.
7. The power to deposit and hold trust funds in both interest-bearing and non-interest bearing accounts.
8. The power to deposit funds in bank or other accounts, whether or not they are insured by the FDIC.
9. The power to enter into electronic fund transfers or safe deposit arrangements with financial institutions.
10. The power to continue any business of the grantor.
11. The power to institute or defend legal actions concerning this trust or the grantor's affairs.
12. The power to execute any documents necessary to administer any trust created by this Declaration of Trust.
13. The power to diversify investments, including authority to decide that some or all of the trust property need not produce income.

Part 8. Incapacity of Grantor
If the grantor becomes physically or mentally incapacitated, whether or not a court has declared the grantor incompetent or in need of a conservator or guardian, the successor trustee named in Part 6 shall be trustee.
The determination of the grantor's capacity to manage this trust shall be made by those of the people listed here who are reasonably available when the successor trustee (or any of them, if two or more are named to serve together) requests their opinion. These people are: Three people you trust that can rule if you are crazy or not. If a majority of them state, in writing, that in their opinion the grantor is no longer reasonably capable of serving as trustee, the successor trustee shall serve as trustee.
In that event, the trustee shall manage the trust property. The trustee shall use any amount of trust income or trust property necessary for the grantor's proper health care, support, maintenance, comfort and welfare, in accordance with the grantor's accustomed manner of living. Any income not spent for the benefit of the grantor shall be accumulated and added to the trust property. Income shall be paid to the grantor at least annually. Income accruing in or paid to trust accounts shall be deemed to have been paid to the grantor.
The successor trustee shall manage the trust until the grantor is again able to manage his affairs. The determination of the grantor's capacity to again manage this trust shall be made in the manner specified just above.

Part 9. Death of a Grantor
When the grantor dies, this trust shall become irrevocable. It may not be amended or altered except as provided for by this Declaration of Trust. It may be terminated only by the distributions authorized by this Declaration of Trust.
The trustee may pay out of trust property such amounts as necessary for payment of the grantor's debts, estate taxes and expenses of the grantor's last illness and funeral.

Part 10. Beneficiaries
At the death of the grantor, the trustee shall distribute the trust property as follows:
1. Person who gets your stuff when you dieshall be given all Your name interest in the trust property. If Person who gets your stuff when you die does not survive Your name, that property shall be given to Backup person who gets your stuff when you die.
All distributions are subject to any provision in this Declaration of Trust that creates a child's subtrust or a custodianship under the Uniform Transfers to Minors Act.
A beneficiary must survive the grantor for 120 hours to receive property under this Declaration of Trust. As used in this Declaration of Trust, to survive means to be alive or in existence as an organization.
All personal and real property left through this trust shall pass subject to any encumbrances or liens placed on the property as security for the repayment of a loan or debt.
If property is left to two or more beneficiaries to share, they shall share it equally unless this Declaration of Trust provides otherwise. If any of them does not survive the grantor, the others shall take that beneficiary's share, to share equally, unless this Declaration of Trust provides otherwise.

Part 11. Custodianships Under the Uniform Transfers to Minors Act
1. Any property to which Name of person who gets yor stuff when you die (if under 21) becomes entitled under Part 10 of this Declaration of Trust shall be given to Custodian of trust for those under 21 (I used my wife), as custodian for Name of person who gets your stuff (if under 21) under the Maryland Uniform Transfers to Minors Act, until Name of person who gets your stuff (if under 21) reaches the age of 21. If Custodian of trust for those under 21 (I used my wife) is unable or ceases to serve as custodian, Backup custodian of trust for those under 21 shall serve as custodian.

Part 12. Grantor's Right to Homestead Tax Exemption
If the grantor's principal residence is held in trust, the grantor has the right to possess and occupy it for life, rent-free and without charge except for taxes, insurance, maintenance and related costs and expenses. This right is intended to give the grantor a beneficial interest in the property and to ensure that the grantor does not lose eligibility for a state homestead tax exemption for which he otherwise qualifies.

Part 13. Severability of Clauses
If any provision of this Declaration of Trust is ruled unenforceable, the remaining provisions shall stay in effect.



______________________________page break_______________________________________

Certification of Grantor
I certify that I have read this Declaration of Trust and that it correctly states the terms and conditions under which the trust property is to be held, managed and disposed of by the trustee, and I approve the Declaration of Trust.

_____________________________________Dated: ______________
Your name, Grantor and Trustee

_____________________________page break______________________________________



CERTIFICATE OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF NOTARY PUBLIC

State of Maryland )
) ss.
County of )
On ____________________, __________ before me, _____________________, a notary public in and for said state, personally appeared Your name, personally known to me (or proved on the basis of satisfactory evidence) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the within instrument, and acknowledged to me that he executed the same in his authorized capacity, and that by his signature on the instrument the person, or the entity upon behalf of which the person acted, executed the instrument.
WITNESS my hand and official seal.

Notary Public for the State of Maryland
[NOTARIAL SEAL]My commission expires:

_____________________________page break____________________________________


SCHEDULE A

1. Stuff you put in the trust
2. Stuff you put in the trust

_____________________________page break_____________________________________


Assignment of Property

I, Your name, as grantor of the Name of the trust Revocable Living Trust dated ____________________, __________, hereby assign and transfer all of my rights, title and interest in the following property:
1. Stuff you put in the trust
2. Stuff you put in the trust
to Your name, as trustee of the Name of trust Revocable Living Trust dated ____________________, __________.

Executed at ____________________, _______________, on ____________________, __________.

___________________________________________
Your name, Grantor and Trustee

DIY - why waste $500

I would like to respond to Maryland Shooter's post.  The document he attached is not from me nor prepared by me and I would not provide a document as rudimentary as that to any client of mine.  It makes no provisions for NFA assets, nor does it have any verbage to take into account the managment of NFA assets as the federal law applies to them.  Establishing a trust is easy.  Creating one that works during your life and, more importantly, at your death, is an entirely different thing altogether.  I have reviewed many self drafted trust documents over the years and typically find multiple errors in nearly all of them.  I currently have one on my desk right now where the person drafted his own trust and made a critical error that is now, after his death, going to cost the family quite a bit of money and time to gain possesion of the assets.  I had one fellow from this very board contact me a while back on a trust his dealer prepared for him for a nominal fee which left him in violation of federal law and subject to possible criminal prosecution.

You contacted me asking me to provide you, for free, a "template" for a maryland trust.  As I indicated to you in my email in response to your request, every trust we prepare is tailored to our clients individual needs.    I don't know you from adam, and yet you contacted me wanting me to provide you with a free trust.  When I explained that I unfortunately I could not provide you with a free trust, I received your email scolding me for having the nerve to want to charge for my services.  Perhaps you have the luxury of doing whatever it is you do on a pro bono basis, but the rest of us need to be paid for what we do for a living.  I would point out that other attorneys that have recently jumped on the NFA Trust bandwagon generally charge as much or more than I do.  Do you call your accountant a jerk when he charges you for preparing your tax return.  How about the dentist who charges $1000 for a crown that costs him about $50?  No, because you are not paying simply for the cost of materials, but for their expertise in the subject.  Maybe you also go online and complain about dealers who won't sell you a gun for their cost and have the nerve to want to make a profit to feed their kids and pay their rent.

I came up with the concept of the NFA trust several years ago.  A concept that has changed the way that thousands of people across the country deal with NFA items.  I have worked with the NFATCA on Trusts and NFA and spoken at their last two general meetings.  I am also assisting them on the next revision of the NFA handbook published in conjunction with the BATFE.  I have written articles on the subject of NFA Trusts in Small Arms Review Magazine that I have allowed to be posted all over the internet in an effort to provide information to the community.  I answer general questions on the subject on this and numerous other web boards in an effort to assist the community.  In other words I have a certain amount of experience in practicing in this area of law and have done quite a bit to help others in the community.  I did not contact you.  You contacted me, I assume because of my experience in this area.  If you find my services to be more than you are willing to pay for, I would rather you simply say thank you for my responding to your email inquiry and go whatever way you wish rather than to go online and trash me.  

Bob J. Howell, Esq.,FFL/SOT

Hey Bob:  here is one reply I sent you!

Dude - for a guy who makes his living talking and writing, you burned up 2 billable hours.  Relax - have the decaf and try to introduce the concept of pro bono into your vocabulary.

Posting a decent template wouldn't kill you.  I didn't ask for a Trust for free - just a template as a guidline.  You'd think I asked you to pick your own pocket.

$500 is way too much - you say not.  I'll do my own.  The post WAS a solicitation and I don't think I said you were a bad person, but now - well, I'm starting to wonder.

The money lawyers charge is obscene IMO.

And yeah - posting 10 times and pushing yourself out there as the NFA Trust expert reeks of solicitation.

How's the weather there?  It's so cold here, I saw a lawyer with his hand in his own pocket,

Now don't go away mad; just go away.

ETA: Bold

Bob - relax man.  You are burning billable hours and also misrepresenting things.  On top of that - you have like 8 spelling errors.

And ease off acting like a working stiff buddy - feed their kids and all that - like $500 an hour is general wages 'round here.

Tell me who, besides lawyers, get $500 an hour for their time and what makes your time worth $500, when another guy makes, say $50?

Info-monoploy!  Being beaten down by the free exchange of information.

Cost to you = ZERO for one lousy template.

Copy/Paste/Disclaimer.

No paper, no materials, nada, nothing, zip, zero, zilch.

If you have done one simple NFA trust, posting it costs you nothing.

Instead of doing that, you burned up twice the time explaining why you are such a great guy and I am cheap.

Ok - let's stipulate - you are a great guy and I am cheap.

Now will you post a template?

Seems like Bob has earned the term expert.  Hat's off to him.

Seems like he blazed a trail I am now walking on.  Thanks Bob.

Pardon the error - $450 instead of $500.

All in all, I'll still do mine own though.

Edit: spelling

What a low class ingrate.  I charge a little less than Bob for a trust, but to come on this website and criticize his fees is simply low class behavior.

Sean Cody,
Attorney

ETA:  For the record, the trusts that I prepare for NFA items, and I am sure that the trust that Mr. Howell prepares, are far more extensive than the simple DIY trust that you posted.  I'm not saying that they cannot work, but what if they don;t?  What if you have an issue?  Who are you gonna call?  Ghost Busters?  . . . if there is ever an issue, try calling Willmaker or Quicken and asking them what to do.

No now, no name calling.  To ask the same fee over and over and over is obscene.  Milking the same damned cow.

You take the same basic document and tailor it to each individual case.  You don't re-invent the wheel or discover fire man - you put words to paper.  There is nothing mythical or magical about the process - except the cost.

What gives a person the right to ask $500 an hour?  THAT is patently OBSCENE.

Look men, if can read, you CAN PRACTICE LAW.  It's not brain surgery, which is why I find it so insane to squeeze $500 out of someone for a 2-4 page document.

Come on men; anyone who can read and has a brain can draft a Will, a Trust or most any other legal document.

All that ho-ha about kids eating and all that is total nonsense.  I have never seen a thin lawyer.

OK - you charge $500, I ain't paying it.  I'll do my own and you can bet it will be as good as it needs to be.  You can also bet, I'll give it away for free.

I chased one guy across three jurisdictions to garnish him for 5K, I can certainly do a Trust.

Look men, we agree to disagree.  There is no way I would want to do what you do, day in and day out.

Sad to wake up everyday thinking in billable hours, rather than how much I can enjoy myself.  Law is fun as a hobby and when you actually need it.  Past that it's a huge pain in the ass.

And Mr. Cody, how kind of you to donate a billable hour to the debate.  Between the two of you, you could have posted a sample 5x over instead of arguing.  But alas, that's what lawyers do, is it not?  Shame you can't bill someone, or then again, maybe you have - eh?

As far as being a low lass ingrate, perhaps you should consult your Webster, as it defines that as: an ungrateful person.

Implicit is that I have something to be ungrateful for, that you have given me something.

In return, I would say that my opinion of you is that of a high-priced crook.

You gentlemen enjoy your day now.

I abandoned this thread long ago, but haven't yet had the heart to unsubscribe.  It gets in the way sometimes, popping up in my Subscribed Threads, but I tolerate it.

I come back to check it for the first time in months, and find this tempest.....

Let me preface what I'm about to say with this:

"I like you, and generally/usually look forward to reading your posts."

Whether you know or care, I do....

That said, I just wanted to address three points here:
Nothing "gives them" that right.  At least to the best of my knowledge, the gov't does not (yet) place a cap on what an attorney may charge for any particular service.

$500 an hour is NOT "expensive" for lawyerly services, depending an a number of factors, such as the market (i.e. what part of the country they are in) and the specialization.  For example, go to Manhattan and find a lawyer specializing in some niche area of law.

Tell them $500 an hour is outrageous.....
This part reminds me of an old "joke".  If someone can recall it, please tell or copy/paste it.  It starts out that a company calls in an old-timer out of retirement to fix some cantankerous piece of legacy machinery in the plant.

Someone balks at the "obscene" fee the old-timer charges.....

The punch line then follows that "making the chalk mark" (depending on the exact occupation of the gentleman in whichever version of the joke you're hearing) is "worth" a small percentage of the fee, and the remainder is in "knowing where to put it," or words to that effect.

It's about expertise, not [necessarily] what will work.

For example, would you pay me $715 to conduct a 4-day Tactical Carbine Course?  Would you pay someone else that same "obscene" amount of money for the 'same' course?
Perhaps not Sean, but Mr. Howell has given you "the shoulders of giants" on which to stand......

That said, let nothing I said above be misconstrued to state that I think/feel/believe you should not be able to give it away for free.

(i believe that by the same token in fact that i believe Bob & SC-Texas can charge whatever they wish)

This thread shouldve went away a long time ago. THere is more mis information in this one thread than arfcom as a whole. oh well. Ive reported it in the past and it still keeps lingering.

The fact is, there are too many unknowns when it comes to TRUSTs and how they should be set up. That is why it should be handled by a lawyer, someone that takes responsibility to the legal matters, not some internet forum.

I can say this - I waded through a lot, but 53 pages was not in the cards.

input

A properly planned and drafted NFA Trust is the best way to acquire and hold NFA items.  It is VITALLY IMPORTANT that the Trust be valid under state law.  People who have attempted to either "do it themselves" or use on-line resources such as LegalZoom  or Quicken have had their weapons confiscated because the trust was invalid.  At BEST, they had to forfeit their weapons.  People who attempt to buy NFA weapons using invalid trusts can face criminal prosecution.

Some folks recommend using a corporation or LLC for NFA items. These forms of organization are primarily meant for businesses.  Although you can acquire NFA weapons in a corporation or LLC without having to obtain the consent of your police chief or first selectman. This is not advisable for several reasons.

Corporate bylaws and LLC operating agreements lack the provisions required to deal with the National Firearms Act. Some information about corporations and LLCs is available to the public. Trust documents are totally private. Corporations and LLCs are required to pay annual fees to the state and to file tax returns. NFA trusts are not subject to these requirements. There are no further administrative costs and fees after you have set up your NFA trust.

Stay safe,

Jeff Crown [ Dilloman ]