I'll apologize up front if there is a better place to post this but I figured this is where I would find the most owners of these type guns so if it the mods think it needs moving please do.

I've got an 1873 Springfield trapdoor carbine .45-70 that I absolutely love but obviously it and similar guns are limited to "trapdoor safe" low power ammunition.  I'm curious if any of the replica guns like the Pedersoli, Shiloh Sharps, C. Sharps that are made today are capable of firing modern high power .45-70 ammo?  Yes, I know the whole "why would you want to" argument but that's not what I'm needing.  I just need to know if there are any replicas of early .45-70 rifles/carbines that are capable of handling modern high power .45-70?

I do shoot my 1873 occasionally with appropriate ammo and it's amazingly fun and I appreciate the historical aspect of it but I would also like a rifle/carbine that can shoot modern high power ammo but I would really like it if it were in the form of a Sharps or similar instead of a modern style.

All of the loading manuals that I have seen say no.

That's pretty much what I was expecting but I've heard several other people express the desire to own such a gun so I suspect there is a market large enough to make them, in smaller runs if necessary.  Hopefully, one of the manufacturers will see there is a market for such a gun and commit to it.

Thanks for your info

I would suggest more research, I believe the Sharps and Winchester 1885 rifles are plenty strong enough for heavy loads. Certainly not the Springfield.

I researched the heck out of it and every brand of original and replica I could find specifically says to only use black powder rated cartridges, no modern ammo.  I was just hoping there was one I missed.

Well no, none of the manufacturers are going to recommend anything but standard pressure factory loads. Ruger is famous for their admonishing the use of handloads or anything over pressure. Even though their .45Colt and .45-70 chambered guns are some of the strongest available. It's a liability issue for them. I would contact the companies that make the heavy loads like Buffalo Bore and CorBon. The Trapdoor replicas are certainly safe with any standard pressure factory load. They are not limited to blackpowder.

Read here:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=150

As you said the Pedersoli trapdoor says to stick with the old loads.  It is one of my favorite rifles to shoot.

I would trust my Pedersoli Sharps with something like a modern .45-70 smokeless load but never my trapdoor....all the manufacturers of 19th century guns are going to say BP only on the single shots I suspect.

Yeah, my original Trapdoor carbine only gets fed black powder ammo or ammo specifically designed for it and is way fun to shoot.  I'd love to get a Sharps carbine capable of shooting modern high power .45-70, that's what I'm mainly wanting.  The C. Sharps are probably the best made but at $4000 average for a rifle it's not in my financial ability.  The Shiloh Sharps have similar costs but have too many issues reported by owners to consider at that price.  

I guess I'm just out of luck.  I guess I'll save my pennies and, hopefully, in 20 or 30 years I can make a down payment on a C. Sharps lol.

If I wanted a Sharps that bad I'd get me a Pedersoli now and save up for another.

I've yet to find something that says the Pederssoli can shoot high power ammo.  I know someone who has one that I shot, they are beautiful but even they said you have to use black powder strength ammo.  I dunno.

Some of the reason for the low power loads is the old metal, but it might also be the design isn't strong enough, so even if you have top grade metal, it still might not be enough.

The trapdoor just isn't a very strong action, regardless of what it's made of.



You can still get some pretty solid loads with black powder.  No sense in pushing a trapdoor beyond what it's designed for.



 

We aren't talking about the trapdoor, I have one its a low power ammo only gun, I'm referring to Sharps and such.

Like I said, no manufacturer is going to say anything different for liability reasons. The Pedersoli is listed in the link I provided to Buffalo Bore. The information is out there, you're apparently looking in the wrong place. If you're waiting for a manufacturer to give you the green light, it'll never happen. Not with ANY .45-70 rifle.

You can find second hand information all over the internet but only a fool would base the decision on whether to use low power 45-70 or high power 45-70 in their gun.  Every gun chambered in 45-70 that can handle modern loads advertises them as such, so if they don't specifically list it as capable of shooting modern ammo then it's not.  There are probably guns out there that were not designed specifically for modern 45-70 but have used with modern ammo and gained a reputation of being able to handle it but that doesn't mean it's not going to grenade on you after a year of doing so.

This is why I'm asking about guns that are designed to shoot modern ammo.  If they are designed to handle it they will tell you, it's a great selling point.  The reason modern replicas don't say they can handle modern .45-70 is because despite being built from better materials they are still designed for low power ammo.  Whether that same gun has gained a reputation among shooters of being able to handle modern ammo makes no difference to me, that's not what I'm looking for.  I was looking for a modern replica of a vintage rifle (Sharps rifle/carbine styles) that was designed to handle modern .45-70 not one that wasn't designed as such but has a reputation of being capable.  Manufacturers of guns designed to shoot modern high power .45-70 absolutely do advertise them as such.  I've yet to find a modern replica of a vintage rifle that has built their replica with the intent of it being capable to shoot modern .45-70 safely.  When and if I find one it will definitely go on my buy list.

Sorry but that's BS and you clearly have not done the research you claim to. NO manufacturer is going to condone the use of ammo that exceeds standard pressures. NONE! So if you can show where Winchester or Browning says you can use high pressure ammo in their 1886's or Marlin in their 1895's or Ruger in their No. 1, I'd love to see it. Fact is, whether the manufacturer claims they are capable or not, we know for a fact that these guns can handle higher pressures. Believe it or not, the manufacturer is not the last word, even on their own guns. There are other credible sources of information but if you are waiting for ANY manufacturer to condone the use of high pressure ammo in their .45/70, just go ahead and forget it.

Or we have a miscommunication here on what you mean by "modern ammo". There are ZERO .45-70 rifles manufactured today that are not safe for factory smokeless ammo. NONE will require blackpowder only. ALL must be safe for standard factory loads, period.

Thirdly, I don't consider it to be "secondhand information" that Buffalo Bores says their ammo is safe in certain guns. Tim Sundles knows what he is about and he knows what the guns and his loads are capable of. Every load is carefully pressure tested and I guaran-friggin'-tee you that he would NOT claim it was safe in a rifle if it was at all questionable. His livelihood and reputation are on the line.

You clearly have no idea what I'm talking about or you're talking about, one or the other.  Every single manufacturer of modern rifles .45-70 chambered rifles that are designed to shoot modern ammo clearly says so.  When a manufacturer says it is a .45-70 Govt. it is referring to modern ammunition and, obviously, they can shoot low power or "trapdoor safe" ammo as well.  When a manufacturer lists their rifle, this whole thread is discussing modern built replicas of vintage guns, as specifically being designed for "black powder strength" ammunition then it is NOT designed to shoot modern "high power" .45-70 ammunition.   Unless a modern built vintage rifle replica specifically says it can be shot with modern (the term used by ammunition manufacturers to describe modern high power .45-70 not when the cartridge was manufactured) ammunition, it is not designed to be, regardless of whether its possible or not.

My original question was if anyone knew of any modern replicas of vintage rifles that were designed to use modern (again that means the high power version of .45-70 as opposed to "trapdoor safe" black powder strength ammunition) .45-70.  The answer so far is no.  It's easy...

No, you obviously don't know what you're talking about and are using ambiguous language where accuracy is prudent. Let me try to be very clear because you obviously aren't getting the message.

NO MANUFACTURER WILL CONDONE THE USE OF AMMUNITION THAT EXCEEDS SAAMI PRESSURE STANDARDS!!!

While it is 100% safe for you to do what you want to do, you are NOT going to get the blessing of ANY manufacturer.

Again, if you can show where ANY manufacturer recommends their guns for high pressure loads, I'll gladly eat my hat.

I had a clone of a trap door that was rated for trapdoor loads only, but it could be shot with smokeless loads, just not the ones you might use in a no.1 or no.3, or a Winchester Hi Wall, It could handle all SAAMI spec loads though, because as I understand it those loads are pretty much trapdoor loads

FWIW it ate 70gr BP loads with no problem

My old Ruger could take higher pressur loads, but the manufaturer did NOT condone it, while it was known (among the general reloading communities) it could handle higher than SAAMI spec loads, the Manufacturer had the usual boilerplate that I have seen from every manufacturer I have ever bought from regarding reloaded ammunition and "HOT" ammuntition

IIRC Shiloh Sharps approves their .45-70 1874s for Ruger No. 1 level loads.

I never said anything about shooting ammo exceeding SAAMI standards..... You are on a whole different tangent than this discussion started of on.   I'll listen to the others who obviously understand the question.

This is what I'm looking for.  I looked at their website a couple times but never saw any information on what to use, which by default, should mean it's not limited to the low pressure "cowboy action" strength ammo.  I've found a lot of negative reviews of the Shiloh Sharps going ranging from poor craftsmanship to terrible customer service, however, that's relative to the number of reviews, which isn't many, I've found.  I'll reconsider them and contact them for more information.  I'm also going to contact C. Sharps and see what they say.  The C. Sharps are the best made from what little info I could find but, ouch, they are expensive so it may be a case of just biting the proverbial bullet if they are rated for modern ammo.

Thank you for that information

I never heard anything of the sort.  You getting this info from the C. Sharps site?

Here's a typical comparison of the two companies.  Full disclosure: I decided to purchase a Shiloh.  There's a reason Shilohs are back ordered around two years though you can get them faster for a premium though Bill Goodman.

Sorry, I got those backwards it seems.  The Shiloh is the one I heard was the best although reading that link it looks like the C. Sharps aren't nearly as bad as what I was envisioning.  Do you know if both are designed to shoot modern ammo or "tier 1 Ruger" as you referred to it?  I guess I never considered calling it tier 1 Ruger, I'm familiar with that as it has to do with Ruger handguns (I have New Vaquero Bisleys and a Blackhawk Convertible, I didn't know it applied to rifle calibers also, thanks).

I didn't say "Tier 1 Ruger".  I said "Ruger No. 1", as in the No. 1 rifle:



.45-70 loads are listed in the reloading manuals in one of three levels:  The first being suitable for the Trapdoor (black powder pressures, without looking it up I'm guessing 16-20kpsi), the second for the Marlin 1895 (somewhat higher pressures than the trapdoor, I'm guessing 30-35kpsi ), and finally suitable for the Ruger No. 1 and No. 3 rifles (very high pressures for a .45-70, I'm guessing 40-50kpsi)

I don't know a thing about the C. Sharps.  I got my info about the Shiloh off their forum from the company owner.  I tried a quick search but their search function is worse than AR15.com's.  (If you want to look for yourself it will be in the "Support Forum" within the last year to 18 months.  The forum moves slowly so that space of time will be covered in just a few pages.)

Sorry, my wireless is on the fritz so I'm doing a terrible job of speed reading in between outages.  I know about the Ruger #1's, I'd like to have one despite having no real need but that's the nature of collecting I guess.  I don't need a gun that shoots ammo at the top of the hot list, I'm mainly looking for a Sharps style capable of handling the middle from the three you listed.  I would think that the modern guns from C. Sharps and Shiloh Sharps would be capable but I've not found any information to support that yet, I'll investigate the forum you suggested, thank you!

One of the hints toward the capability of the Shiloh action is the fact that they chamber it in .405 Win. and .30-40 Krag.  These cartridges run in the in the 40+kpsi range with base diameters just a little smaller than the .45-70.

To me the beauty to the Sharps rifles is firing them as they were in the 1800s.  My .50-70 has never seen smokeless powder.  Sure, it limits the velocities to 1200-1300 fps in most sharps cartridges but if I want to send a 300-500 grain bullet at 2200 fps I'll abuse myself with a Ruger No. 1 or similar chambered in one of the old Nitro cartridges.

Yeah my 1873 Springfield is limited to low pressure ammo but I don't care, it's like you can feel the history in it every time I shoot it, which isn't often but still fun.

If Buffalo Bore says their hot loads are good in the pederssoli why is that not good enough? Reputable ammo manufacturer who has a lot to lose.

Which modern loads are you talking about? SAAMI is 28k psi which isn't much. Almost every hand loader and a lot of factory ammo is over that and as was mentioned the gun manufacturers are pretty gunshy about suggesting anything over that even though it is a common practice.

This country has a history of old rounds that are underrated. 9mm, 45acp, 38 super. All suffer from similar situations which is why there is so much +p ammo available. The modern guns can take so much more. The competitions I shoot has many people pushing 9mm to 357 magnum levels, I try not to pick up their brass

For someone who says, "I researched the heck out of it", there is a hell of a lot that you do not know. You used some ambiguous language and my mistake was in assuming that you had a clue. Sometimes you have to be smart enough to ask the right question and right now, you are not. Nobody knows what the hell you mean by "modern ammo". This is far too vague and utterly useless in conversation where precision is critical. So YOU need to define exactly what you mean by "modern ammo". If you do not know, you need to find out.

Firstly, SAAMI standard pressures are set at 28,000CUP. NO newly manufactured firearm will be built that cannot handle a lifetime diet of standard pressure loads. Period. You can take this to the bank. Most factory loads are under the maximum to be safe in the old Trapdoor rifles. Doesn't change the fact that any new firearm must be able to live on a stead diet of 28,000CUP loads.

Cowboy ammo is not loaded light in deference to the strength of any firearm. It is downloaded to meet the velocity requirements of cowboy action shooting. Nobody builds guns for these loads.

Any ammunition, such as that from Buffalo Bore, CorBon, Grizzly, etc., is loaded beyond SAAMI pressure standards. Any handload described as only for Marlin 1895 is going to be beyond SAAMI pressure standards, up to perhaps 40,000psi. The modern Sharps rifles are at least strong enough for those loads. Pressures will  run as much as 50,000psi for the modern Winchester/Browning 1886, Ruger No. 1 & No. 3 and the modern Winchester/Browning 1885.

As I said, no manufacturer is going to give you the go ahead on loads that exceed 28,000CUP. If Shiloh does, they are the rare exception.

Again, if Buffalo Bore says the Pedersoli is strong enough for their loads, that's plenty enough for me to load them to typical Marlin 1895 levels.

I would trust the modern Shilo Sharps for much hotter loads than the original was designed for.  The Sharps is actually a pretty strong action. The Trapdoor is, well as we all know, a somewhat weaker action. The Trapdoor being modern or antique should always have only somewhat anemic rounds ran through them.

My original Trpadoor gets fed reloads of smokeless. I use 27 grains of IMR 3031, 400 grain plain lead FN bullet. CCI Primers. I can shoot around a 3 inch group with that load at 100 yards. I have only shot it a couple times before winter set in. The sights are somewhat lacking on a Trapdoor. And I am half blind, pretty good considering..

Freedom Arms is the only maker I know of that offers recommended handloading data for their firearms, and in .454 only.

Regarding 19th century designs:
Among the weakest is the 1873 Springfield "trapdoor."
I have a Harrington & Richardson 1873 replica I bought new in 1977. I also have a Marlin 1895 purchased new the same year.
I've been reloading rifle and pistol ammo since 1971 and currently reload about 25 calibers. Never made a bad reload yet, or damaged a gun, because I'm extraordinarily conscientious and cautious.
I would never drop a +P Marlin load into the Springfield. I'd damage or burst the Springfield.

The Sharps design is slightly stronger than the Springfield, if in good condition, but I'd never use any +P loads in it.
Will the Sharps take pressures slightly higher than those recommended by SAAMI? Perhaps, but those same loads will also accelerate wear and tear on the rifle -- to what end?
Game animals and paper targets can't tell the difference between a SAAMI approved .45-70 load and one pushing the bullet an extra 100 or 200 feet per second.

If you MUST reload above SAAMI specifications for a Sharps, contact the manufacturer of the rifle for his recommendation.
He will almost certainly not recommend it, because he's probably got a steady stream of damaged rifles entering his shop, sent by reloaders who cursed "lawyer loads" and wanted to, "get the ol' beast up off its knees."

There are certain cartridges that attract ignorant, irresponsible reloaders that I wouldn't trust to reload a toilet paper holder let alone a cartridge.
These cartridges include the .45-70. .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Long Colt, .44 Special, .30-06, 9mm Luger. 444 Marlin (a particularly useless cartridge) and a few others.
A few years ago, Marlin Firearms dropped its message board for a time because idiots were posting .45-70 loads that were downright dangerous. I believe the Marlin-sponsored message board has returned, but you can bet it's closely scrutinized.
Some loads were so dangerous, and off the recommended mark, that I can't help but believe that sick pranksters were deliberately trying to blow up rifles.
Perusers of the internet, take note: always check every load against a recently published reloading manual, or the website of a powder or projectile manufacturer. There be evil pranksters in the cloud.

There is no need to "soup up" the .45-70 far beyond SAAMI recommendations.
A heavy .45-caliber bullet (400 grs or more) at 1,200 to 1,300 fps will put down any game in North America. It's been doing so for 140+ years.
Of greater importance is marksmanship when you're winded or stressed. Put that heavy bullet where it counts and the job will be done.

You get a lot more than 100-200fps.



BS on both counts. What you gain is range. Yes, standard pressure loads will put down anything in North America but ranges must be kept unnecessarily short.



Sorry but that characterization is unfair and offensive. Get over yourself, this is all well-traveled road. Information pertaining to loading data and the guns that certain loads are safe for is readily available. Same for the rest.

The .444 is a modern cartridge for which there are no weak old guns. In standard 1-38" twist guns it handles all .44Mag pistol bullets and makes a damn fine deer/hog cartridge that shoots flatter than the .45-70. In the newer 1-20" twist guns, it can utilize bullets up to 405gr making it a very effective cartridge against very large game.