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Posted: 7/23/2009 5:16:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Hawkeye]
The following is just something that I decided to do for my own T&E purposes, but I thought I’d post it up here in case anyone was interested in it. Most of it is just my opinion and mine alone, based on my likes, dislikes, and personal observations via my own first hand experiences, or first hand of a trusted friend. I urge you to try things out for yourselves, and come to your own conclusions. If your results and observations are different, then they are different.
First, I wanted to say a few things about BDU’s in general and the material with which they are made. Before I do though, I feel I must point out that my use for BDU’s is not for fun, or play, or a “hobby”. I have them for serious use. So that is the context in which I’ll be viewing and commenting from. I think much of the time, people do not give much thought (if any) to the material that the BDU’s they are purchasing are made from. In my experience, the material is an extremely important factor. First, you have Twill material, and Ripstop material. Twill being a smooth material, Ripstop having raised ridges in the material forming a grid type pattern, which is designed to help prevent a rip from spreading once it starts. Second, you have the makeup of the material itself. The most common ones being, 100% cotton, 60/40 Cotton/Polyester, 65/35 Polyester/Cotton *, and 50/50 Nylon/Cotton. There are a couple of others, be these seem to be the most common. Most are available in either a Twill or Ripstop form, but that varies from brand to brand. * Note - There are a couple of different “weights” of the 65/35 materials available. BDU.com has some good general info out on the various materials here. http://www.bdu.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=fabric-guide&Category_Code=acu-coats And Propper has some good info here. https://www.epropper.com/fabrics.php My personal favorite materials have long been 50/50 NYCO and 60/40 Cotton/Poly. I have found that these are great year round materials for me, doing well in both summer and winter conditions, wet or dry. I have long had a dislike for 100% cotton material. I find that it wears very fast, is not that durable, fades quickly, and is, in my opinion, downright dangerous when wet regardless of the source of the moisture or the time of year. How a material handles moisture, i.e.- how well does it resist and/or absorb moisture, what does it do with moisture once wet, i.e.- does it tend to hold it, or does it evaporate it quickly, etc. is a extremely key factor to me. 65/35 Poly/Cotton has always been a strong, durable material, but I never liked it much outside of very cold conditions. I found it generally to be too heavy of a material, almost canvas like. However, I recently decided to try a couple of pair of Propper BDU’s made from their 65/35 Poly/Cotton Ripstop that they call their “BattleRip” material, after noticing that it was of a lighter weight than what some are. After wearing the pants to work for a couple of weeks, I have completely fallen in love with them and the material. I have found it to be very comfortable in the heat, and have no doubt that with proper base layers, it will do well in the cold. They also have proven to do very well when wet, and as previously mentioned, that’s a big thing for me. Moving on to camo patterns. This is an extremely debatable topic, that some folks get really wrapped up on. Use whatever pattern you like, just don’t be quick to rule out something other than your personal favorite, and don’t be too quick to judge another on their choice. Get what you think you like, and then test it for yourself, in multiple environments, locations, conditions, etc. I decided to take the 4 patterns that I have come to like best, and do some very informal pictures of them. They aren’t professional pictures, and they aren’t meant to be. Again, just did these for my own reasons and thought I’d share. As you may pick up from some of the pictures, shadows and lighting can play a huge part in helping, or hurting, your concealment efforts. Pay close attention to that when your in the field. Usually, shadows are your friend, but sometimes, the opposite is true. I don’t think that there is any one pattern that truly works to the optimum, everywhere. I do think that there are some that come very close, but, I think that the USMC was really smart in going with 2 different color schemes. The following is a series of pictures I took using 4 different BDU tops. Multicam, Woodland Digital, Desert Digital, and X-Camo digital. I included the Desert digital, as I think too many people write it off as being no good anywhere except the desert. I think some may be a little surprised to see just how well khaki’s and tan’s can work in a non-desert environment. For the most part, there is little to no vegetation in front of them, and I did this on purpose. This is just to give a view of how they may or may not appear when viewed in front of concealing vegetation, vs. mixed in it, or more behind it. I'll get to those pics and such later. The sky was mostly clear and it was very sunny. The Woodland and Desert digitals are Propper's 65/35 Poly/Cotton Ripstop from their ACU line. The Multicam is 55/45 Cotton/Poly Ripstop from SKD Tactical. The X-Camo is 60/40 Cotton/Poly Ripstop from MOC. All the shots were taken in series at each location in the following order……..Multicam, Desert Digital, Woodland Digital, and last X-Camo Digital. 1st view…….. 2nd view……….. 3rd view………. Here are 2 extra’s I took of the X-Camo digital……. And one extra of the Woodland digital………… Random thoughts so far…. The Propper Woodland digital was really impressive in a number of spots that I placed it and really surprised me. I plan on getting some more of it for sure. I am really liking the material, the construction, and the price. I had hoped the Multicam would produce slightly better results. We’ll see how things play out with the future things I plan to try….. Speaking of that……. I have quite a few more pics and such that I plan to take and post, so if your interested, stay tuned and I’ll post updates as I do them. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
Anyone have experience with fame retardant and bug repellent camo? Just the flame retardant alone usually ups the price hundreds of dollars. There is a local Surplus place that sells Multicam flame retardant and bug repellant pants (the kind with adjustable knee pads) for $89. Is this the best deal on the planet or am I missing something? No, they are not used, BRAND NEW. How can a brick and mortar be so much cheaper than all the online places??? View Quote They could be mislabeled or knock-offs... I have seen a local surplus store in my area selling counterfeit items like this from China that came complete with fake tags and fake NSNs, so I wouldn't be surprised. Check them out good. If it is legit, buy them all and re-sell them! Even imported Propper FR BDU pants are upwards of $150+, the Barry compliant versions of the same are $250+... and Propper is the cheapest that I am aware of. |
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Originally Posted By 0uTkAsT:
They could be mislabeled or knock-offs... I have seen a local surplus store in my area selling counterfeit items like this from China that came complete with fake tags and fake NSNs, so I wouldn't be surprised. Check them out good. If it is legit, buy them all and re-sell them! Even imported Propper FR BDU pants are upwards of $150+, the Barry compliant versions of the same are $250+... and Propper is the cheapest that I am aware of. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 0uTkAsT:
Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
Anyone have experience with fame retardant and bug repellent camo? Just the flame retardant alone usually ups the price hundreds of dollars. There is a local Surplus place that sells Multicam flame retardant and bug repellant pants (the kind with adjustable knee pads) for $89. Is this the best deal on the planet or am I missing something? No, they are not used, BRAND NEW. How can a brick and mortar be so much cheaper than all the online places??? They could be mislabeled or knock-offs... I have seen a local surplus store in my area selling counterfeit items like this from China that came complete with fake tags and fake NSNs, so I wouldn't be surprised. Check them out good. If it is legit, buy them all and re-sell them! Even imported Propper FR BDU pants are upwards of $150+, the Barry compliant versions of the same are $250+... and Propper is the cheapest that I am aware of. Can't say much about flame-retardant clothes, except, IIRC, there are some home-made borax treatments that will afford some sort of flame retardant capability, as well as some insect retardance, although the latter has been superseded by permethrin treatments.. As far as insects go, there are a number of treatments on the market that will provide such, most of which are based on permethrin (sp?). |
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"The M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." General George S. Patton Jr.,US Army
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If they are knock offs they are very good ones! I just bought some Marpat and this stuff is very similar in construction. Is there any stitch type/pattern thats a give away?
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Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
If they are knock offs they are very good ones! I just bought some Marpat and this stuff is very similar in construction. Is there any stitch type/pattern thats a give away? View Quote If it feels like good shit then it's probably legit, maybe they had the prices wrong or got some kind of screaming deal on an overrun... hard to say. I was instantly able to tell the difference between the crap this local joint was selling and real Propper BDUs because of the poor quality seams/stitching and the fake plasticy feeling tags on the inside... they were the right color but weren't made out of the same kind of fabric material that Propper uses (I had a Propper boonie in my truck at the time so I was able to compare on-site). Those two things had me skeptical so I looked online with my phone to confirm the NSNs were fake here. |
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Well from a quality standpoint they look very much the same as my used MARPAT. They look like they are "used" as they look faded but the owner tells me this is because they are made from the flame resistant material and then bug repellant treated. Makes sense as side by side with the Propper (non-FR and non bug repellant) and used stuff it is definitely a different material.
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Anything new in the last six weeks? - in other words, bump
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Unfortunately no. Been up to my neck in work and some things.
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
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When available, you MUST test Multicam Tropic against evergreen trees and wooded areas during the late fall/early winter when pine and ivy are the only green vegetation surrounded in bare trees and leaves on the ground.
It's the closest thing we'll get to a woodland multicam. The only thing, really. |
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"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter." ~ Ernest Hemingway
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Ill bet Marpat FG will be 99% as good and way cheaper, but not nearly as Mall Ninja approved...
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
When available, you MUST test Multicam Tropic against evergreen trees and wooded areas during the late fall/early winter when pine and ivy are the only green vegetation surrounded in bare trees and leaves on the ground. It's the closest thing we'll get to a woodland multicam. The only thing, really. View Quote No promises but we'll see. |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
to the guy who just posted a gazillion photos of the sierra nevada - looks like a gravel pit (kinda) so it makes sense that UCP didn't suck
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Originally Posted By RePp:
Where were those taken? Sure wasn't the Sierra Nevada's. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By RePp:
Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
Here are some of my pics comparing Desert MARPAT and ACU, surprisingly, ACU works a lot better than many would have you think in the Sierra Mountains: Where were those taken? Sure wasn't the Sierra Nevada's. And the plot thickens! |
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Looks to me like the desert in southern California, Nevada, or maybe southern Arizona.
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Originally Posted By RePp:
Where were those taken? Sure wasn't the Sierra Nevada's. View Quote I hope you are only referring to the Boonie cap pics! About 1/2 mile South of Creech Bombing range, basically right by the base of the Mountains in the first set of pics… Oh, I see the issue, it was late, sorry! Corrected... |
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Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
I hope you are only referring to the Boonie cap pics! About 1/2 mile South of Creech Bombing range, basically right by the base of the Mountains in the first set of pics… Oh, I see the issue, it was late, sorry! Corrected... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
Originally Posted By RePp:
Where were those taken? Sure wasn't the Sierra Nevada's. I hope you are only referring to the Boonie cap pics! About 1/2 mile South of Creech Bombing range, basically right by the base of the Mountains in the first set of pics… Oh, I see the issue, it was late, sorry! Corrected... I agree though ACU does work well in sagebrush. |
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I have never been there or done that and basically have no idea what I''m talking about.
Im in a wheel chair and cant even touch my ears |
Whats your guys favorite snow camo?
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"Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." - St. Augustine
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Pencott Snowdrift hands down. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By demon07nd:
Whats your guys favorite snow camo? Pencott Snowdrift hands down. Is there anyone selling it? The Hyde Definition page just says its coming soon. |
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"Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." - St. Augustine
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I'd call a dealer:
http://www.hydedefinition.com/gear.html |
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"Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." - St. Augustine
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Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
Ill bet Marpat FG will be 99% as good and way cheaper, but not nearly as Mall Ninja approved... Marpat FG?? Man I am full of FAIL today! "woodland MARPAT"... Originally Posted By demon07nd:
Originally Posted By Freedom_Or_DEATH:
I'd call a dealer: http://www.hydedefinition.com/gear.html Thanks for the help guys, I found where I could pre order it, but at $400 its to pricey for me. Wholly CRAP! Does that come with Baby Oil to ease the pain? |
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
http://domari-nolo.com/shop/signature-apparel/centurion-light-fighter-parka/ View Quote Thanks for the link, still costs a lot, but I'll have to save up for it. This was the only place I found it. http://www.checkpointcharliesurvivalsupply.com/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16294 |
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"Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." - St. Augustine
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Yeah, everything from Drop Zone is on the higher end cost wise. Good stuff, just not cheap.
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Be honest, you were hiding from your buddy, but he caught you poopin...
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I just got some Mandrake pants and see they will work great here south central NC, even fall and winter time. I'm thinking of going highlander and coyote for gear like battle belt and plate carrier. Curious if anyone has this setup or experience with it? Pics would be great. Thanks.
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No pics but multicam seems to work best in the upper midwest. Oaks, aspens and evergreens with alot of tall grasses and prairie flowers. Works well from spring unil the snow flies.
I've had very good luck with tru-spec. I have 2 pair for work (tan and khaki) that I wear everyday mon-fri for the last 2 years and they've not faded or worn through. Ripstop is nice when hot and wet but has zero insulation which isn't so good in early spring or late fall. |
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If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace. -Thomas Paine
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Originally Posted By dispatch55126: No pics but multicam seems to work best in the upper midwest. Oaks, aspens and evergreens with alot of tall grasses and prairie flowers. Works well from spring unil the snow flies. I've had very good luck with tru-spec. I have 2 pair for work (tan and khaki) that I wear everyday mon-fri for the last 2 years and they've not faded or worn through. Ripstop is nice when hot and wet but has zero insulation which isn't so good in early spring or late fall. View Quote |
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View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By OlKev: Originally Posted By dispatch55126: No pics but multicam seems to work best in the upper midwest. Oaks, aspens and evergreens with alot of tall grasses and prairie flowers. Works well from spring unil the snow flies. I've had very good luck with tru-spec. I have 2 pair for work (tan and khaki) that I wear everyday mon-fri for the last 2 years and they've not faded or worn through. Ripstop is nice when hot and wet but has zero insulation which isn't so good in early spring or late fall. |
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Know about it, yes. Only thing that's currently available though is MC Black. About the only one I'd be remotely interested in trying would be the Tropic.
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter." ~ Ernest Hemingway
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wz-0HypXow http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger7_zpsa0cf266b.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger5_zps7e362927.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger6_zps11e106ec.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger9_zpsde00e75d.jpg View Quote It's not hard to see why most SOG dudes in Vietnam opted for hand-painted OD utilities in lieu of tiger stripe. It just did not work. Granted, Florida doesn't exactly have triple canopy, but one can get the idea. |
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"The sleep of reason produces monsters."- Francisco Goya
If the future is only hoped for, we are doomed. |
My uncle was a LRRP Ranger, and MAC-V. He seemed to like it about equal to altered OD's.
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By lew:
It's not hard to see why most SOG dudes in Vietnam opted for hand-painted OD utilities in lieu of tiger stripe. It just did not work. Granted, Florida doesn't exactly have triple canopy, but one can get the idea. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By lew:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wz-0HypXow http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger7_zpsa0cf266b.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger5_zps7e362927.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger6_zps11e106ec.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger9_zpsde00e75d.jpg It's not hard to see why most SOG dudes in Vietnam opted for hand-painted OD utilities in lieu of tiger stripe. It just did not work. Granted, Florida doesn't exactly have triple canopy, but one can get the idea. The choice was not theirs to make, my understanding is that MACV-SOG directives forbade the use of tigerstripes across the fence. But strangely.. ERDL's had been used across the fence prior to the closing of TF1AE, TF2AE, and TF3AE. |
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A socialist may indeed be academically superior.
And yet, they are most certainly emotionally retarded. Minion of Snow #006 The Deej abides... discworld717 |
http://pinesurvey.com/?p=313
PenCott Greenzone vs. Multicam Tropic vs. Flecktarn vs. Kryptek Mandrake |
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"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter." ~ Ernest Hemingway
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
http://pinesurvey.com/?p=313 PenCott Greenzone vs. Multicam Tropic vs. Flecktarn vs. Kryptek Mandrake View Quote Interesting.... |
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F$$K CANCER!!! RIP Jeff Reed.
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shit this thread makes me release i need like 3 patters of camo just fro my state....
this is soon to get expensive... |
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Excellent. Greenzone won hands down in that environment.
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Originally Posted By HAGDADDY:
Interesting.... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By HAGDADDY:
Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
http://pinesurvey.com/?p=313 PenCott Greenzone vs. Multicam Tropic vs. Flecktarn vs. Kryptek Mandrake Interesting.... Now somebody needs to make some Pencott Greenzone BDU's for less than $300 per set. It is very impressive in that comparison test. |
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The Pencott patterns have been my overall favorites for some time now, especially the Greenzone for my area. Availability of affordable BDU's and related items has been/is an issue though. I'm hoping that will be rectified this year.
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Protego quod vallo.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Originally Posted By myitinaw:
The choice was not theirs to make, my understanding is that MACV-SOG directives forbade the use of tigerstripes across the fence. But strangely.. ERDL's had been used across the fence prior to the closing of TF1AE, TF2AE, and TF3AE. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By myitinaw:
Originally Posted By lew:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wz-0HypXow http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger7_zpsa0cf266b.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger5_zps7e362927.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger6_zps11e106ec.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/ATS/Tiger9_zpsde00e75d.jpg It's not hard to see why most SOG dudes in Vietnam opted for hand-painted OD utilities in lieu of tiger stripe. It just did not work. Granted, Florida doesn't exactly have triple canopy, but one can get the idea. The choice was not theirs to make, my understanding is that MACV-SOG directives forbade the use of tigerstripes across the fence. But strangely.. ERDL's had been used across the fence prior to the closing of TF1AE, TF2AE, and TF3AE. Tigerstripes were definitely used by SOG members over the fence and found to be ill-suited to the environment. As effective as the Pencott offerings appear to be, it seems the interest for the Kryptek patterns is misplaced. That's my observation anyway. |
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"The sleep of reason produces monsters."- Francisco Goya
If the future is only hoped for, we are doomed. |
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